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post #676 of 814 (permalink) Old 06-11-2019, 09:39 AM
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Thanks for sharing your videos! It would be awesome if you wanted to start a separate thread with your thoughts on each search n the videos, such as the conditions, judges debrief comments, etc, along with hide locations. Then we could watch the videos and get a lot out of it. I’m going to try and do that occasionally.
I will try to remember to do that! We have a L2C coming up in July and another attempt at an NW3 in September. I haven't been able to get into anything else...stupid waitlists!

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post #677 of 814 (permalink) Old 06-11-2019, 10:32 AM
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I will try to remember to do that! We have a L2C coming up in July and another attempt at an NW3 in September. I haven't been able to get into anything else...stupid waitlists!
I'll start a new thread for trial videos for those that want to share - I have a few that I can post.

Here's the trial video thread: https://www.dobermantalk.com/obedien...ml#post4075031


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Last edited by MeadowCat; 06-11-2019 at 10:43 AM.
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post #678 of 814 (permalink) Old 06-11-2019, 12:25 PM
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It got pretty toasty in there by the end of 28 teams...we were all hoping that someone would bring up an in flight cocktail, but no luck!
Ok 79 - Teaching time for us dummies

How long does a team get to find a hide ?

What do you use for the hide ? guns , dope , explosives ??

How far do teams travel to get there ?

Who dropped the ball and forgot the after class beverages ? I would be looking for a replacement ! :grin2

Have you ever gone to a trail and competed against MC ?

Do any of the dogs go on to be drug dogs ?

Thanks
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post #679 of 814 (permalink) Old 06-11-2019, 12:33 PM
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How long does a team get to find a hide ? It depends on the level you're competing at. On average I would say about 3 minutes, but it can be more or less depending on what the certifying official set ups.

What do you use for the hide ? guns , dope , explosives ?? I compete mainly in NACSW (National Association of Canine Scent Work). They use three essential oils; Birch, Anise and Clove. You start off teaching the dogs to find birch and add the others as you move up in level.

How far do teams travel to get there ? It really depends on the team. My cut off is typically about a 5.5/6 hour drive. For the elite trial I was volunteering at there were teams from Georgia, Florida and Oklahoma. The trial was in Wisconsin! People will travel!

Who dropped the ball and forgot the after class beverages ? I would be looking for a replacement ! :grin2 Right!? Water was just not cutting it!

Have you ever gone to a trail and competed against MC ? Yes, I have been to MN and have competed in the same trial as MC. She's a great person!

Do any of the dogs go on to be drug dogs ? Not that I know of. Drug detection dogs are trained at an early age and are specifically bred for public safety work.

Hope that helps!
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post #680 of 814 (permalink) Old 06-11-2019, 12:45 PM
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Thanks 79 !!!!

She's a great person! -- Be 'n' she is a super mod - that is a Great reply 79 just kidding ! I have sent MC a few PM's on things and she has very good replies and info ! - I totally agree with you !
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post #681 of 814 (permalink) Old 06-11-2019, 12:51 PM
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Ok 79 - Teaching time for us dummies

How long does a team get to find a hide ?

It depends on several factors, including the organization and the level at which the team is competing.

What do you use for the hide ? guns , dope , explosives ??

For most of the organizations in the US and Canada, you are searching for cotton swabs scented with essential oils. The most common scents are birch, anise and clove. UKC adds myrhh and vetiver. AKC and C-WAGS add cypress. SDDA, a Canadian organization, uses wintergreen, pine, and red thyme.

One small organization uses raw, unwashed sheep's wool for one of their titles.

Both AKC and UKC offer Handler Discrimination titles, where the target odor is the handler's scent.


How far do teams travel to get there ?

Depends on how ambitious you are, and how far away trials are. I know of one person who recently took a nearly two month long road trip, from New Jersey to Colorado and then back home, with several zig-zags along the way, competing with four dogs.

I, on the other hand, and glad to have a club licensed for both UKC and AKC about two hours away, which is pretty much my limit at the moment.


Who dropped the ball and forgot the after class beverages ? I would be looking for a replacement ! :grin2

I'm pretty sure that trials are BYOB.

Have you ever gone to a trail and competed against MC ?

Not unless one or both of us move.

Do any of the dogs go on to be drug dogs ?

While a lot of the training is the same, most sport dogs aren't be suitable for working, and a lot of working dogs aren't suitable for sport. Some manage to do both, but it's not very common.

Thanks
Does that help any?


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post #682 of 814 (permalink) Old 06-11-2019, 12:52 PM
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Ok 79 - Teaching time for us dummies

How long does a team get to find a hide ?
It varies, depending on the type of trial. The CO sets the hides and the amount of time for each search. In NW1, NW2, etc trials the search times are longer. In Element Specialty trials, the search times tend to be very short - some are only a minute or 90 seconds at Level 1, for one hide.

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What do you use for the hide ? guns , dope , explosives ??
As Melissa said, we also compete primarily in NACSW, so we use birch, anise and clove. They use essential oil. Typically you "scent" q-tips by putting a couple of drops in a glass jar and swirling it around on a whole bunch of halved q-tips to scent all of them. In AKC, however, you compete with a lot more odor - they scent their q-tips by putting I think one drop of oil per q-tip. Other organizations use different or more odors...some use odors like vetiver, etc. AKC also has "handler" odor, which is finding an item scented with the owner's odor. Once you've taught your dog to find one odor it's not terribly hard to teach more.

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How far do teams travel to get there ?
Depends on the team. Some people are willing to travel all over the country. I personally can't travel because of my health, so we only compete locally. I have lots of local friends that travel pretty far for trials.

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Who dropped the ball and forgot the after class beverages ? I would be looking for a replacement ! :grin2
Funny you should say this...my regular weekly class often has a couple of beers or something, and definitely has snacks! We're a fun group

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Have you ever gone to a trail and competed against MC ?
Melissa is awesome! Although "competed against" isn't really correct, because in Nosework you aren't competing against the other people in the same trial, really. There are placements for first, second, and third place, for the dogs that are fastest, but really you are just trying to find the hides with your dog. It's something I love about the sport - there is such a supportive environment where people really cheer each other on, and I don't see that type of tearing anyone down that you can find in some dog communities. Nosework rocks!

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Do any of the dogs go on to be drug dogs ?

Thanks
I haven't heard of that, because that's such a highly selective job. Many dogs wash out of professional work because it takes such a driven dog to do it. One of our local judges trains dogs for police work, and he generally has to import dogs from overseas for it.

I absolutely love scentwork and it's an amazing sport!
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post #683 of 814 (permalink) Old 06-11-2019, 08:02 PM
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If ------- I Didn't know better ----- I think that MC loves Nose work !

Thanks for the info everybody !

You know me ! I have another question !!!!! I wonder why - the one guy has to get over seas dogs ???? That just don't make since to me - I have seen may Dober's here with drive .
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post #684 of 814 (permalink) Old 06-11-2019, 08:48 PM
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You know me ! I have another question !!!!! I wonder why - the one guy has to get over seas dogs ???? That just don't make since to me - I have seen may Dober's here with drive .
Breeders can't keep up with demand, for one reason. A real working dog needs to be driven. As in a "will work until they collapse of exhaustion" attitude, come rain, snow, or heat. Roughly 50% of dogs bred for police and/or military work wash out of training for one reason or another. The AKC is partnering with the Theriogenology Foundation to study why, despite selective breeding, that still happens. https://www.akc.org/press-releases/a...-dog-shortage/


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post #685 of 814 (permalink) Old 06-11-2019, 11:52 PM
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If ------- I Didn't know better ----- I think that MC loves Nose work !

Thanks for the info everybody !

You know me ! I have another question !!!!! I wonder why - the one guy has to get over seas dogs ???? That just don't make since to me - I have seen may Dober's here with drive .
Hardly any Dobermans do police work. I don't actually meet many Dobermans that would be very suited to it, for quite a few reasons.

The person I know uses a lot of German Shepherds. I think he gets quite a few from the Czech Republic.

I read a great article a while back on the huge shortage of dogs in the US that are suited to true police/military type work, and the world wide shortage of such dogs. Part of the shortage in the US is due to the military disbanding their breeding program quite a few years ago. We now have to import dogs for the work we need, especially as the demand worldwide for bomb and other sniffing dogs has skyrocketed at airports, ports, and other similar areas. The types of dogs that can do this world are now sold to countries and private bidders for very high fees. It was a great article - I'll see if I can dig it up again. But, this is a digression, and maybe for a different thread. You might want to follow what Penn Vet is doing training working dogs - I know one of Julie Stade's Dobe pups is training there right now (BJF Dobermans) to eventually do some kind of great work in whatever area they decide he's best suited to.


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post #686 of 814 (permalink) Old 06-12-2019, 01:35 AM
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Hi MC...

Personally, I believe why you see no Dobermans, Rottweilers, Boxers and fewer GSDs doing police work is not because of those breeds adaptability or work ethic. It is the stigma attached to the breeds dating back to WW2.

Here we see a lot of Belgian Malinois used in police work. They are smaller, so possibly more agile. Still compared to a Dobe, Rottie or GSD, not nearly as trainable, from what I understand. The general consensus is that Dobermans, Rottweilers and German Shepherds are in the top 10 with respect to trainability. Plus, they are innately protective and totally loyal to their handlers.

Just for fun:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Intelligence_of_Dogs

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post #687 of 814 (permalink) Old 06-12-2019, 11:07 AM
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Hi MC...

Personally, I believe why you see no Dobermans, Rottweilers, Boxers and fewer GSDs doing police work is not because of those breeds adaptability or work ethic. It is the stigma attached to the breeds dating back to WW2.

Here we see a lot of Belgian Malinois used in police work. They are smaller, so possibly more agile. Still compared to a Dobe, Rottie or GSD, not nearly as trainable, from what I understand. The general consensus is that Dobermans, Rottweilers and German Shepherds are in the top 10 with respect to trainability. Plus, they are innately protective and totally loyal to their handlers.

Just for fun:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Intelligence_of_Dogs

JMO
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I'd actually disagree with you, John...I don't think it's (primarily) stigma. I think some of it is that the Doberman isn't terribly well suited to police work climate-wise in a lot of areas due to the temperature intolerance they have, as well as the lack of suitable temperament in the US for the type of work that police are looking for. You do see some Dobermans used (for example, some may be familiar with Duke, the narcotics Doberman out in California who is a police dog and the DPCA promotes as a "mascot"), and I just saw that Diane Linstrom's Syn just passed her Crime Scene certification, so it sounds like she'll be doing work with law enforcement, too.

Belgians and GSDs are common, but so are Labs and other breeds now. Some of it depends on the nature of the work...are they scent detection only or dual purpose dogs? The trainer I know trains a lot of dual or multi-purpose dogs...they might be narcotics or explosive detection dogs in addition to criminal tracking and apprehension, so those dogs are typically GSDs. Dogs used by law enforcement for just scent detection may be a wide variety of breeds if they don't need to do any apprehension - you see a lot more labs, or beagles, or mixed breeds, depending on the agency.

This is one of the articles I mentioned. I think if we want to continue this diversion we could totally start a new thread on it - it's an interesting topic.

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/08/04/o...register-email


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& Sirai's Golden Masquerade ORT NW1 L1C L1V L1E L1I NW2 RATI SOG WAC
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post #688 of 814 (permalink) Old 06-15-2019, 11:41 AM
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Sypha and I did a K9 ABC Games Dual Odor level trial yesterday afternoon. I'm really pleased with how she did. At Dual Odor level you have six hides in one search, with 8 minutes to find them. The hides are somewhat comparable to NACSW elite level hides, in a way, and yesterday's hides I would say were definitely seriously challenging. We had incredibly hot, humid, stagnant weather. The searches in ABC games are always an indoor/outdoor search combined - our search had a large overhead industrial garage door open, so we had the whole space to work in, but that also meant the stagnant, hot air was in the whole space. There was a storm rolling in - it actually rained just a few dogs after us, so you can picture that heavy, pre-storm air.

We found 4 of the 6 hides, with no false alerts, so I feel incredibly happy with that. We had a really challenging hide situation in the small exterior area - one hide on a "vehicle" - a garden cart that was flat with open grating that Sypha nailed down easily, but another hide that was on the ground next to the building wall probably 2 feet away that she just couldn't source - she knew there was odor, but with the heat (she was really panting by that time) and with the very close hide nearby, and the stagnant air she couldn't source it. She was kind of feeling done working by that point.

She had a nice find that she had to work pretty hard - there was a hanging coat rack - one of those tall metal racks in the middle of the indoor search area, with hangers, a long coat, and a backpack hanging from it. The odor was in the backpack, and she had to jump up at it to indicate the source.

The only other hide we missed was on top of a table, in one of those old slide racks that holds picture slides for projection. Black table, round black slide holder. She had paused at it, but no clear indication.

She had nice clear indications on all four other hides we found. I signed her up knowing it would be challenging, and good practice for us with many hides. Very glad we did it. She earned her interior, vehicle, and container legs toward her Dual Odor title, so next time we do one she'll just need her exterior leg. Lots of fun! I enjoy the ABC games a lot - anyone who has the option near them, highly recommend!


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Richter & Sypha
Glengate's Mountain Fortress CAA ORT L1V NW1 L1I L1E L1C NW2 L2V L2I ACT1 RATI SOG WAC
& Sirai's Golden Masquerade ORT NW1 L1C L1V L1E L1I NW2 RATI SOG WAC
“You cannot get through a single day without having an impact on the world around you.
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post #689 of 814 (permalink) Old 06-16-2019, 06:36 AM
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Hoss starts his beginner nose work class in September.......do you have a beginner scent book that you would recommend for a beginner?

Hoss

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post #690 of 814 (permalink) Old 06-16-2019, 10:17 AM
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I really liked Fred Helfers' Nosework book: https://www.dogwise.com/the-nose-wor...on-to-finesse/. There's an e-version if you prefer, but I think the print version might be more useful.
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post #691 of 814 (permalink) Old 06-17-2019, 08:48 AM
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I've only done mock ABC trials, but they seem like a really fun venue. Congrats on a nice search!

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post #692 of 814 (permalink) Old 06-18-2019, 09:03 PM
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Hey all. Looking for some advice. Juneau started trialing last October and is set to trial his NW3 next month. I don't expect to pass (my reading him) but I want to give us our best shot. My trainer closed her facility several months back so we (former students) have been doing our best on our own. I have been working the exercises from--coincidentally--the book that MC mentioned above, but I need to build some drive and a sense of urgency. Pros that I have noticed in Juneau's work: he is methodical, he stays at source, he rarely returns to sources that he has located. Cons: he is slow, becomes discouraged more quickly than I think that he should, and is hit-or-miss on searching above his eye level without prompting. Unfortunately, his discouraged response is, as far as I can tell, the same as his blank room response, and I kind of dread calling a blank room that is not blank. Does anyone have any good exercises or courses (I have been considering Fenzi, Leerburg, or Scentwork University) for building drive? TIA
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post #693 of 814 (permalink) Old 06-18-2019, 09:34 PM
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I definitely recommend FDSA. Enrollment has closed for this session, but the August session will have NW230: Polishing skills for NW2 and NW3 https://www.fenzidogsportsacademy.co...p/courses/4843 and NW480: Searching Strategies:A Roadmap to Success https://www.fenzidogsportsacademy.co.../courses/22331, both taught by Stacy Barnett, and NW390: Nosework Games https://www.fenzidogsportsacademy.co...p/courses/5533, taught by Melissa Chandler.

With tuition starting at only $65, access to lectures for a full year (longer if you take more classes), plus a supportive Facebook community thrown in for free, FDSA is a real bargain.


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post #694 of 814 (permalink) Old 06-19-2019, 08:55 AM
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Hey all. Looking for some advice. Juneau started trialing last October and is set to trial his NW3 next month. I don't expect to pass (my reading him) but I want to give us our best shot. My trainer closed her facility several months back so we (former students) have been doing our best on our own. I have been working the exercises from--coincidentally--the book that MC mentioned above, but I need to build some drive and a sense of urgency. Pros that I have noticed in Juneau's work: he is methodical, he stays at source, he rarely returns to sources that he has located. Cons: he is slow, becomes discouraged more quickly than I think that he should, and is hit-or-miss on searching above his eye level without prompting. Unfortunately, his discouraged response is, as far as I can tell, the same as his blank room response, and I kind of dread calling a blank room that is not blank. Does anyone have any good exercises or courses (I have been considering Fenzi, Leerburg, or Scentwork University) for building drive? TIA
I don't have much experience with online learning - I'm not particularly good at doing online classes myself. Fenzi has a great reputation. I did take one class online there. Scentwork University is owned by, I *think*???? one of our former forum members...???? I like her blog posts a lot, but I don't know about any of the instructors there.

Best of luck to you guys! So frustrating that your trainer moved!


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post #695 of 814 (permalink) Old 06-19-2019, 10:12 AM
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Quote:
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Hey all. Looking for some advice. Juneau started trialing last October and is set to trial his NW3 next month. I don't expect to pass (my reading him) but I want to give us our best shot. My trainer closed her facility several months back so we (former students) have been doing our best on our own. I have been working the exercises from--coincidentally--the book that MC mentioned above, but I need to build some drive and a sense of urgency. Pros that I have noticed in Juneau's work: he is methodical, he stays at source, he rarely returns to sources that he has located. Cons: he is slow, becomes discouraged more quickly than I think that he should, and is hit-or-miss on searching above his eye level without prompting. Unfortunately, his discouraged response is, as far as I can tell, the same as his blank room response, and I kind of dread calling a blank room that is not blank. Does anyone have any good exercises or courses (I have been considering Fenzi, Leerburg, or Scentwork University) for building drive? TIA
Do you pair your hides (place your high value treat next to your hide) 80% of your practices should never be blind. Know where the hide is so you can get in there before your dog has the chance to give you an alert with the hide, this is where pairing comes into play. As far as elevated hides go slow. start low with pairing no blind hides and work up. Read your dog and you will know when you can move the hides up. Find a low wall something like a plant wall and place hides on top of it again pairing, use chairs and place containers on the seat of the chair, again pair. Every seminar and workshop I attend it is stated that pairing is never remedial. Another fun search is free searching for drive. place 5-6 hides out easy ones again pairing with lots and lots of value treats, let the dog search on his own. No leash no direction from you. you can do this inside. It's called "Pair A PaLouza" don't know if I spelled that correctly. Build up to 20 hides. I do this outside in the back yard some are paired and some are not. it is really fun to watch your dog run around from hide to hide and yes you follow ready to treat. hope this helps you can PM if you need anything I just started Elite and NW3 is challenging. My instructor once told me. Elite is the reward for getting through NW3. I am beginning to believe that however you will get through this and learn so much as a team.

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post #696 of 814 (permalink) Old 06-19-2019, 10:22 AM
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Hey all. Looking for some advice. Juneau started trialing last October and is set to trial his NW3 next month. I don't expect to pass (my reading him) but I want to give us our best shot. My trainer closed her facility several months back so we (former students) have been doing our best on our own. I have been working the exercises from--coincidentally--the book that MC mentioned above, but I need to build some drive and a sense of urgency. Pros that I have noticed in Juneau's work: he is methodical, he stays at source, he rarely returns to sources that he has located. Cons: he is slow, becomes discouraged more quickly than I think that he should, and is hit-or-miss on searching above his eye level without prompting. Unfortunately, his discouraged response is, as far as I can tell, the same as his blank room response, and I kind of dread calling a blank room that is not blank. Does anyone have any good exercises or courses (I have been considering Fenzi, Leerburg, or Scentwork University) for building drive? TIA
I was going to recommend pairing too! Use something super yummy and make some hides jackpots, lots of that tasty treat right at source.
As far as blank rooms, keep in mind how long it typically takes him to find a hide or at least be in odor when you start a search. (I learned this the hard way!) Is it 15 seconds, 30 seconds? At this level you know he knows scent so if he's not finding something or at least showing signs of being in odor and you're 30-45 seconds in; you just might be in a blank room.

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post #697 of 814 (permalink) Old 06-19-2019, 10:54 PM
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Thanks for all of the advice. I may check out FDSA when their next class starts. I believe that there may be another NW3 in my area in September so could be good timing. He definitely knows the game, just really need to get him more enthused for working.

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Do you pair your hides (place your high value treat next to your hide) 80% of your practices should never be blind. Know where the hide is so you can get in there before your dog has the chance to give you an alert with the hide, this is where pairing comes into play. As far as elevated hides go slow. start low with pairing no blind hides and work up. Read your dog and you will know when you can move the hides up. Find a low wall something like a plant wall and place hides on top of it again pairing, use chairs and place containers on the seat of the chair, again pair. Every seminar and workshop I attend it is stated that pairing is never remedial. Another fun search is free searching for drive. place 5-6 hides out easy ones again pairing with lots and lots of value treats, let the dog search on his own. No leash no direction from you. you can do this inside. It's called "Pair A PaLouza" don't know if I spelled that correctly. Build up to 20 hides. I do this outside in the back yard some are paired and some are not. it is really fun to watch your dog run around from hide to hide and yes you follow ready to treat. hope this helps you can PM if you need anything I just started Elite and NW3 is challenging. My instructor once told me. Elite is the reward for getting through NW3. I am beginning to believe that however you will get through this and learn so much as a team.
So I tried pairing again tonight. Our class stopped pairing in the first six week session, within the first month really, and many of them switched to toy rewards anyway. He was kind of funny. I placed seven hides, four at various above-eye heights, all paired with organ meat. He seemed to think it was fun working off lead, worked well, but wouldn't touch the treats until I gave them to him (btw he has never been reprimanded or received any negative punishment for going for a distractor). He was perfectly happy to stay at source wagging his nubbin until I gave him the treats, lots of treats. Usually we work on a 15' lead so that I can stay out of his search area and not guide him, but he seemed really happy working off lead so I might try that more often. We will keep trying the pairing, maybe it will at least get him pumped to find the hides even if he doesn't eat them.

Regarding his comfort at height and identifying blank rooms, he is spot on once he is in odor. Other times though, he floor sniffs. This was our biggest hurdle when we first started classes. A hide could be right next to him but if it is an interesting floor...he floor sniffs instead of works. After a lot of watching him I am 100% certain that this is not working, trainer agrees, so hopefully no one wants to tell me that he is and I should let him do it (it is the sniff, lick, sniff, lick that he does outside before he marks). This is a common problem at schools, gyms, or other solid floor places, and is SO incredibly frustrating when I know there is a hide and he isn't even working. His work method seems a little off anyway. He doesn't run frantically around the room like the other dogs in our class (herders, retrievers), and will sometimes just stand and tilt his head and sniff the air. Once he is in odor it is generally a very quick and accurate find. I'm never sure how long to leave him doing his own thing before prompting him to work again though (he will literally stand like this for a minute or more if not redirected/prompted).
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post #698 of 814 (permalink) Old 06-20-2019, 09:57 AM
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he floor sniffs instead of works.
Newton does this too and I completely understand your frustration! I think it's part and parcel of having a young, intact male (I'm not sure if Juneau is either). I've been trying very hard to make scent more fun than sniffing other dogs. If I feel like there could be issues with a lot of other dog smell in training I will pair, pair, pair! We also have huge parties when he hits source. I try to train with dogs that he may not be familiar with so gets used to having those unfamiliar scents around. He does seem to be getting better, but like anything else it's one step forward two steps back! I'm hoping a little maturity will help with that!

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post #699 of 814 (permalink) Old 06-21-2019, 01:35 PM
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I think it's part and parcel of having a young, intact male (I'm not sure if Juneau is either).
At a little over five years old I think I'm outta luck on the maturing front I got some good advice from a judge who does herding trials where evidently intact males can run behind in season bitches. Yikes! At least now he will work exteriors and vehicles better, instead of trying to run off to the nearest shrub. He has never marked in a trial but it was always my biggest fear and not helped by him doing his marking sniff, and I feel a lot more confident in him now which helps. Little victories I suppose.
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post #700 of 814 (permalink) Old 06-21-2019, 02:10 PM
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At a little over five years old I think I'm outta luck on the maturing front
Maybe he's a late bloomer???

If you don't mind sharing, what advice did the judge give you? I'm always looking for ideas to help with focusing Newton!

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