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  Topic Review (Newest First)
03-31-2020 10:10 PM
MaryAndDobes
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fitzmar Dobermans View Post
You do have to watch for prostate infections, and if they start to get them it is best to neuter. My 12 year old Grand Champion male was neutered when he was 7 after he started getting prostate infections. The first sign is blood in the urine.
Or just blood spots/drops on the floor.
03-31-2020 01:38 PM
Fitzmar Dobermans I would never leave a bitch intact that was not showing or one that was going to potentially be bred. The latest I spayed a bitch that was not bred was 2 1/2 - she was shown and there was a question mark as to if she was going to be bred.... she wasn't. For a pet bitch that is not shown in the breed ring, I let them go through one heat and then spay 3 months later. At most I'd let them go through 2 heats if the first heat was pretty early. I do want them to at least be a year old when they are spayed. I've seen what a pyometria can do and it is a big risk the longer they are intact.

For males, it is easier to keep them intact. You do have to watch for prostate infections, and if they start to get them it is best to neuter. My 12 year old Grand Champion male was neutered when he was 7 after he started getting prostate infections. The first sign is blood in the urine.

It is a balancing act with spay/neuter. Those people advocating leaving all animals intact are in my opinion not responsible. There are just as many health risks with leaving animals intact. Finding the right time to spay/neuter is important.
03-27-2020 04:14 PM
MeadowCat I'm not a fan of Dr. Becker, either.

People can certainly make their own decisions on spaying/neutering. I don't think things are as clear cut as many would like to believe. There are risks and benefits on both sides. Personally, on the side of bitches, I think it's much less clear cut on leaving them intact. The rates of pyometra are fairly high, and my personal preference is to not have to spay a bitch when she's at an age where the risk is higher. There is also, of course, the risk of mammary tumors. I chose to spay Sypha at age 4. That was long enough to wait to have all the benefits of staying intact without waiting so long that the risks of spaying went up too much for my comfort.

I'm not a "spay and neuter everything young" person. But I'm also not a "keep everything intact" person, either...I think both camps need to be much clearer about the true risks on both sides.

We just had a good discussion about this in another thread...Dobebug and I were talking about the risks of leaving males intact, and prostate problems in older males. Many people don't like to talk about that, either.
03-27-2020 02:58 PM
Rosemary There are also risks, sometimes acutely life-threatening, with leaving them intact.

Pyometra is a true emergency, and treatment usually involves surgery on an extremely sick bitch. The more heat cycles a bitch goes through, the higher her chances of pyometra get.

The less life threatening risks in leaving a bitch intact include false pregnancies, which may cause some significant physical and mental changes because of their hormoe levels. Some bitches don't seem to be bothered, while others collect "puppies", and act like their collection of toys, shoes, etc, are actual puppies, and will be very possessive of them, and get distressed when they are taken away. Some, like my pittie, actually lactate.

I've seen some of Dr. Becker's videos, and tend to take what she says with a very large grain of salt. For me, although I'm now more inclined to leave my bitches intact for at least one heat cycle, the advantages of spaying outweigh the disadvantages.

Editing to add that if you can find a vet who can do an ovary sparing spay that removes the entire uterus and cervix while leaving one (sometimes both) ovary, that could be a good compromise between leaving her completely intact and a doing a complete spay. The caveat with that is that she will still cycle, and while not as attractive to males, could still get bred, which could result in some serious injuries due to the nature of the surgery.
03-27-2020 02:10 PM
ownerof2dobbies Ok everyone, I watch Dr. Becker's youtube videos alot and she is a holistic vet and that's how I learned about the raw meat diet for my dogs that I started them on as soon as I brought them home as pups. She highly recommends that you don't spay or neuter your pets because it will cause serious health problems down the road. I think I'll keep my dobermans intake and just be a responsible owner and keep them apart when Angel is in heat. I want my dobermans to live a long and healthy life and if that's what it takes I'm willing to do it! Please watch her video it's very informative! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=enPCZA1WFKY
03-27-2020 12:43 PM
ownerof2dobbies Thanks! I will have him checked out for conformation with the DPCA. That's a great suggestion to get involved with the chapter and find a reputable mentor to really learn the breed. I never had dobermans before I got Walker and Angel, and I've had just about every breed of dog throughout my lifetime (58 yrs), and I have to say I LOVE this breed!
03-27-2020 12:35 PM
Rosemary Typically, midway between heat cycles is considered the best time to spay. Since she's only had the one cycle, about three months after it's over would be halfway between in an average bitch.

Having an injury isn't a DQ. The only DQs in Dobermans are over or undershot bites, missing four or more teeth, and being a color other than black, red, blue, or fawn. Anything else, like uncropped ears or being oversized are considered faults. This is the AKC standard. https://images.akc.org/pdf/breeds/st...anPinscher.pdf
03-27-2020 12:33 PM
ownerof2dobbies I took very strict precautions so that my dobermans did not mate, we have a friend that took Walker to stay with him until Angel's heat cycle is done, to be safe I'm waiting 4 weeks from when she started her cycle. We live in the country on an acreage and there are no male dogs around us, plus I watch her when she's in our fenced yard just to make sure.
03-27-2020 12:30 PM
MeadowCat
Quote:
Originally Posted by ownerof2dobbies View Post
Thanks for the information Meadow Cat! Angel is just finishing her first heat cycle and she turned 1 yrs old. When would be a good time to have her spayed?

Regarding Walker, I will make sure to have all the required tests done one him, but regarding showing him in events I have a question.
When Angel still had her sharp puppy teeth they were playing and she ended up biting his ear and she took a little piece off the tip of his ear in which now he has this little piece missing. Would that DQ him from showing him?
I would talk to your vet about spaying. There are many varying opinions on the topic. If you have any doubts about being able to prevent an accidental litter from happening, I would do it sooner rather than wait. That's my personal opinion.

If you are asking about conformation events, the best advice I have is to contact the closest DPCA chapter club and ask to meet with some experienced Doberman people to evaluate his overall conformation. The Doberman ring is very competitive. You can go to The DPCA | Chapter Clubs

Even if it turns out that he's not built for conformation, your closest chapter club is a great place to connect with active Doberman people. Finding out how to get involved in sports is another good idea. I want to say that many of us started out with Dobermans from less than great breeders. If it turns out that he's not a good candidate for breeding but you think that down the road this is something you want to do, then the best thing you can do is to NOT breed him, but do a lot of things with him, and get involved in your club, and show that you're dedicated to the breed. Learn a lot about what makes someone a good breeder. Find someone to be a mentor to you. Down the line, that will allow you to get a well-bred dog from someone who will help you learn how to show that dog in conformation. If you've been active with these dogs, if you put in the time to learn, if you show that you want to do things right, if you "earn your stripes", so to speak, there are so many people out there that would love to teach you, that would love to mentor you, if you are open to learning and want to do it the right way. But that also means not breeding these dogs, if things are not right for them.
03-27-2020 12:22 PM
ownerof2dobbies Thanks for the information Meadow Cat! Angel is just finishing her first heat cycle and she turned 1 yrs old. When would be a good time to have her spayed?

Regarding Walker, I will make sure to have all the required tests done one him, but regarding showing him in events I have a question.
When Angel still had her sharp puppy teeth they were playing and she ended up biting his ear and she took a little piece off the tip of his ear in which now he has this little piece missing. Would that DQ him from showing him?
03-27-2020 12:20 PM
Rosemary As an FYI, even if they are a recognized color, WZ dogs aren't eligible for AKC conformation, although they can do anything else that Dobermans are eligible for.

As MeadowCat said, good breeders won't be interested in breeding their bitches to an untitled, untested male. A person who's main interest is conformation will want conformation titles both on the dog they breed to and in his pedigree. A performance sport oriented person will want to see titles in the sport(s) they are interested in. Personally, I love to see titles on "both ends" of a dog, meaning that they have both conformation and performance titles.
03-27-2020 12:10 PM
MeadowCat
Quote:
Originally Posted by ownerof2dobbies View Post
Thank you for answering my questions! As I stated I'm a newbie here and I have alot to learn and I appreciate everyone being patient with me.

Unfortunately my female doberman Angel's pedigree # is WZ02013211, her mother, grandmother and great grandmother's pedigrees start with WZ.
But my male doberman Walker's pedigree is WS60664705, he has no WZ in his lineage.

Maybe I should just consider having Walker being a stud dog but only with females that are not vWD carriers so it will better the breed.
What do you all think?
It is definitely the right decision not to breed your female. I would personally have her spayed.

The decision to breed your male is still a complex decision. Most breeders looking to improve the breed will be looking to see his structure (conformation), and his temperament, and how he can improve the breed. That means that you will want to start thinking about what makes him a great representation of the breed. When I look for a puppy, for example, I want the parents of my puppy to be great representations of the breed - so I'd look for a dog that has shown to be really excellent by "proving himself" in a lot of sports by earning a lot of titles, and being structurally sound, so being evaluated by an outside authority. Typically that is in the conformation ring, either in AKC or UKC. Sometimes dogs that excel in the very top levels of sports do not have conformation titles, but I would not be interested in puppies produced by a dog that doesn't do any of that.

If you think you want to breed him, you should first start by really getting involved in some activities that show that he's a truly outstanding example of the Doberman breed. Good, reputable breeders don't want to breed dogs that haven't "earned" being bred.

Additionally, you will need to be doing extremely thorough health testing every year. That means an annual echocardiogram and 24 hour holter monitor with a cardiologist. Full bloodwork, including a full thyroid panel, liver and kidneys. He needs his eyes checked, hip xrays, etc. The annual health tests can cost thousands of dollars, and they MUST be done every year.

You need to start researching his pedigree, as Gretchen suggested. How old are his parents? How about his grandparents? If they aren't alive, what did they die of? What health issues do they have? Do they have normal thyroid levels? What are their heart tests like? The bitch owner would want these results, if you are breeding to a good, ethical owner. How about great-grandparents? How long did they live? What did they die of, and what were their health issues? Are there things like allergy issues in the lines? What are the temperaments of the dogs like tracing back at least 4 generations? When you breed dogs together, you aren't breeding two individual dogs, you are breeding the pedigrees together. It's a big responsibility to produce stable dogs with good temperaments, good structure...

The stud owner is JUST as responsible as the bitch owner for the puppies produced.
03-27-2020 11:51 AM
ownerof2dobbies Thank you for answering my questions! As I stated I'm a newbie here and I have alot to learn and I appreciate everyone being patient with me.

Unfortunately my female doberman Angel's pedigree # is WZ02013211, her mother, grandmother and great grandmother's pedigrees start with WZ.
But my male doberman Walker's pedigree is WS60664705, he has no WZ in his lineage.

Maybe I should just consider having Walker being a stud dog but only with females that are not vWD carriers so it will better the breed.
What do you all think?
03-27-2020 10:26 AM
Rosemary
Quote:
Originally Posted by ownerof2dobbies View Post
Thanks for all of your advice, I really appreciate it!

I have a couple questions....first one is I noticed in the breeding thread that one of you shared with me there was a comment that if your doberman has a WZ at the beginning of their # they should not be bred. Why is that?

Second, after reviewing Walker and Angel's Certified Pedigree certificate from AKC, I noticed that Walker's grandfather (T&T Tucker) is Angel's great grandfather with the same # starting with WS. Does this mean they should not be bred since they have the same bloodline?
Since MeadowCat has already explained the Z factor, I'll stick to the pedigree question.

Line breeding, which is the breeding of related animals, is pretty common, and how breed type is set. Some line breeding can be really tight, with first or second degree relations being bred together.

Out crossing is breeding animals that don't have any common ancestors for several generations.

It's very important that you know how closely related dogs in a pedigree are, and what good and not so good traits they tended to pass along. Line breeding on a dog know for producing faulty conformation or bad temperaments isn't something you really want to do. And while DCM is in every line, several crosses to a dog who died young from it, and who's offspring also tended to die young, is just plain unacceptable, IMO.
03-27-2020 08:27 AM
Instructor I'm wondering how you managed to get 2 dogs that you are able to keep intact and breed but not have any information about breeding from the "breeders" you got the dogs from ???

I can't imagine any reputable breeders would allow any of their pups to go without a contract requiring spay/neuter or a co-owned contract for "potential" breeding to a home with experienced Doberman owners.

How did you manage to get these dogs ??
03-27-2020 08:09 AM
Gretchen_Red Would you be able to share their pedigrees?

When I was looking for Maverick I would bring up puppies and breeders to my handler. I would describe the parents, and the titles... and she would say, "research all of the dogs in the 4 gen. pedigree and write by their name how they died. Call the breeder if you have too. Before even THINKING about breeding your dogs you need to have this answered. Most dogs you can find online, some you will have to ask your breeder about. You need this information to know what potential issues will arise from breeding. Also ask your breeder what health issues run in their lines. Reputable breeders know their lines and they know the lines of the dogs they breed too. They rarely breed their own dogs together.

The next question I have for your is: How will breeding your two dogs together help and improve the breed?

Final question: What health testing have you done on your two dogs?

If you want to consider showing I would start taping your girls ears down so they lay nice and flat to the head.
03-27-2020 07:52 AM
MeadowCat
Quote:
Originally Posted by ownerof2dobbies View Post
Thanks for all of your advice, I really appreciate it!

I have a couple questions....first one is I noticed in the breeding thread that one of you shared with me there was a comment that if your doberman has a WZ at the beginning of their # they should not be bred. Why is that?

Second, after reviewing Walker and Angel's Certified Pedigree certificate from AKC, I noticed that Walker's grandfather (T&T Tucker) is Angel's great grandfather with the same # starting with WS. Does this mean they should not be bred since they have the same bloodline?
A dog with a WZ registration number is a descendant of Sheba, the first albino Doberman. It is the tracking system that has been used for many, many years to track dogs that carry and can reproduce albinism in Dobermans (something that is very undesirable). Until very recently, we could not test for it, as we had not identified the gene responsible, so a special "Z" system was used. You can read about albinism here: DPCA | The Doberman | Albino Dobermans

Unfortunately, unethical breeders continued to try to breed for albino dogs, marketing them as "special" and "unique" despite the health issues.
03-27-2020 12:58 AM
ownerof2dobbies
Quote:
Originally Posted by 4x4bike ped View Post
Hi Owner! Welcome from the Pacific NW.

What a couple of cuties.

Breeding? Not for me!!! LOL. Way too much time, effort, responsibility and $$$$ involved.

I have been perfectly happy for the last 4+ decades to surround myself with the wonderful pups of others who are willing to make the difficult commitment to the Doberman breed.

Best to you, Angie and Walker,

John Lichtwardt
Portland OR
Thanks for all of your advice, I really appreciate it!

I have a couple questions....first one is I noticed in the breeding thread that one of you shared with me there was a comment that if your doberman has a WZ at the beginning of their # they should not be bred. Why is that?

Second, after reviewing Walker and Angel's Certified Pedigree certificate from AKC, I noticed that Walker's grandfather (T&T Tucker) is Angel's great grandfather with the same # starting with WS. Does this mean they should not be bred since they have the same bloodline?
03-26-2020 11:04 PM
Fitzmar Dobermans Go through the links to threads about breeding. It is best not to breed a VWD carrier to a carrier unless there is some truly competing reason why those two dogs should be bred..... and that isn't that they happen to be the two dogs you own. Also, you need to learn about all the health testing that should be done.... VWD is just one test. I'm not going to comment beyond that right now as I really don't want to drive you away from a place that might be able to teach you a lot. There are also a lot of good articles on the DPCA website on all kinds of subjects.
03-26-2020 01:58 PM
4x4bike ped Hi Owner! Welcome from the Pacific NW.

What a couple of cuties.

Breeding? Not for me!!! LOL. Way too much time, effort, responsibility and $$$$ involved.

I have been perfectly happy for the last 4+ decades to surround myself with the wonderful pups of others who are willing to make the difficult commitment to the Doberman breed.

Best to you, Angie and Walker,

John Lichtwardt
Portland OR
03-26-2020 11:14 AM
Rosemary
Quote:
Originally Posted by ownerof2dobbies View Post
Thank you for welcoming me, and thanks for the links, I'll check them out!
I do have a question, we had our male tested a while back for Von Willebrand Disease and it came back that he's a vWF1 (Carrier).
Is it okay to breed him if my female is also a carrier? We haven't had her tested yet but the breeder told me she's a carrier.
Crossing a carrier with a carrier can result is three possible outcomes with the puppies. First off is clear, the second is carrier, and the third is genetically affected. The first two possibilities would not be clinically affected (have abnormal bleeding due to vWD). However, any genetically affected dogs do have the chance of becoming clinically affected (have abnormal bleeding, sometimes severe). You would have to test every single puppy in the litter, so that their new owners would know what to expect, and only sell genetically affected pups to experienced homes.

While their ears being left natural isn't a DQ under the AKC standard, it can be a hard slog to finish a cropped dog, so an uncropped dog has to be an exceptionally good dog to do well in the AKC show ring
03-26-2020 11:01 AM
ownerof2dobbies Thanks Meadow Cat, can you please help me put the pic of my dobermans as my avatar?
03-26-2020 10:54 AM
MeadowCat Welcome!

It's good to put a lot of thought into breeding before you do it. This thread may be a good one to read. People can be blunt, but there is a lot of good information in it if you are open minded and want to learn. https://www.dobermantalk.com/breedin...e-breeder.html
03-26-2020 10:37 AM
ownerof2dobbies Hi everyone from Iowa!
03-26-2020 10:11 AM
Cressrb Welcome to DT from Utah. Cute pair of Dobermans you have!
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