|Topic Review (Newest First)|
|03-07-2020 06:52 PM|
|Katlin Tarrer|| |
he’s been on another round of antibiotics, antacids and probiotics due to blood in his stool for one day. He has it then but that was it (about 2 weeks ago) otherwise still the same soft yellow stool, sometimes rubbery or mucous looking. His poops are pickup-able I think due to the probiotics but the more he poops through the day the looser they are and still very soft even when I can pick them up somewhat easy.
|03-07-2020 03:50 PM|
|MeadowCat||As Bug said, one thing we see repeatedly on the forum is that overfeeding and that jumping from food to food is a huge cause of diarrhea in pups. And, we see a lot of pups that simply don't do well on the so-called "high end" foods. I was going to mention specifically another member that went through similar stuff - gamermouse, and I was trying to find what her boy ended up on (Hills Sensitive Stomach) and it brought me to your thread back when you first posted...and now I remember that you've been struggling with diarrhea issues for a while (https://www.dobermantalk.com/food-fe...ggestions.html). Did you ever end up going back to Puppy Chow? Did poops stabilize? Just thinking it might help us help you if we can get a better picture of where things were at before the Kong/crate situation. Have you been switching foods around or did you end up getting him on a food and having good, consistent, stools and no stomach issues?|
|03-07-2020 03:14 PM|
With the exception of a few kibble manufacturers I would be very reluctant to try any limited ingredient formula. I've looked at the formulas of these limited ingredient diets from many that are offered as the answer to suspected allergies because of their limited ingredients and have pretty consistently found that the ingredients are not really limited at all.
If you are going to try that I'd stick with foods manufactured by the bigger outfits who more often actually have feeding trials to make sure some of their offerings actually work. An awful lot of the smaller outfits rely on computer modeled foods which may or may not work.
Most of these diets are prescription. So the brands that have real limited ingredient formulas would generally be Hills/Science Diet, Royal Canin, and Purina. Iams/Eukanuba used to have a prescription line but recently sold it to Royal Canin who now carry the various prescription formulas formerly offered by Iams.
Sometimes what looks like a sensitive stomach turns out to be less of sensitive and more of just plain overfeeding--which is pretty easy to do with growing puppies because the males will often eat anything and as much as you stick in front of them and soft stools and diarrhea are often directly related to just plain too much food.
I've had Dobermans since 1959 and over time have fed mostly foods by the big name manufacturers. This started as a recommendation by my first vet and has worked pretty well for me all these years. Some of the foods I fed in the first 10 or 15 years have either vanished off the face of the earth or have become part of some larger manufacturer but the four I mention above are still around and it's generally because even the non-prescription formulas have worked for most dogs most of the time.
I think I've said elsewhere than the Purina Focus ProPlan foods have worked well for me and my fall back is the "Sensitive Skin and Stomach" (formerly and now subtitled Salmon and Rice) but I had one dog who didn't do well on it but ate the Chicken and Rice for about 8 years without problems.
I pass this along as a suggestion. Hills has a non-prescription food--called Sensitive Skin and Stomach--one of the people I work with has Bull Mastiff's and had endless problems with soft stools and diarrhea--she tried several different kibbles and the Hills rep was in one day when she was talking again to one of the vets about the problem and the rep asked if she'd tried the fairly new formula for skin and stomach. She hadn't but the rep gave her a big bag of it and and for the two dogs she had at that time it was like a magic bullet--in the first week of feeding that the dogs had firm, formed stools. This worked for her and have been recommended to several of the clinic clients and it seems to generally work well.
I had so many problems with lamb as a protein that after trying it three times from three different manufacturers with different carb's (the problem was the same--inside a month to 6 weeks of feeding anything with lamb their coat turned to crap--dry, itchy and dull and I couldn't keep weight on the Dobes--increasing the amount I was feeding led to soft stools and diarrhea) I have declined to try it again. And recently found several articles about lamb which kind of gave explanations about my problems with the lamb--it has to do with digestability. The articles I found rated various meat protein sources from least digestable to most digestable with lamb on the bottom and salmon on the top.
If there is a suspicion that your dogs problem might be an actual food allergy or sensitivity (actually pretty rare) several of the vet allergist/dermatologists that we talk to about such things have started using the fully hydrolized kibbles manufactured by Hills (ZD), Royal Canin (HP), or Purina (HA). These are all prescription foods and expensive. But they are all fully hydrolized which means the proteins (both animal and vegetable) so that the protein molecules which a long complex forms are broken into shorter link which the animals body doesn't recognize as an allergen.
These formula's have also been used successfully to feed puppies who sometimes have sensitivities that haven't been identified specifically and the hydolized formulas can be fed in lieu of conventional diets long enough to settle the reactions to ordinary food down long enough for a puppy's underdeveloped GI system to catch up and then they can be switched to ordinary foods.
Just some suggestion to discuss with your vet.
I learned far more than I ever wanted to know about "true" allergies from a cat--he was a clinic rescue (if you work for a vet clinic you often find yourself with the dregs that no one wants). He was a perfectly ordinary cat until he was about 10 months when he started having diarrhea and frequent vomiting--we switched him to ID--and it worked for several months and the diarrhea and vomiting started again. That time we switched him to Hill ZD--(and that's when we eventually found out that while the dog formula is fully hydrolized in the kibble the cat was not--the canned food was but of course the cat was one of those that doesn't like canned food. Ultimately we found Royal Canin's HP and once he was on that all of the puking and diarrhea stopped--and you always knew when he had found something to eat that wasn't his hydrolized food--because it caused practically instant diarrhea and vomiting. Shortly after that Purina came out with HA--and he's lived on that and the Royal Canin for the last 15 years (he's now 17 and doing well).
In the last six month before we figured out what the problem was and how to treat it he went from a 12 pound cat (not so very big) to a 6 pound cat who looked like he was made of sticks. He was starving because he wasn't utilizing any of the regular foods.
And it's been said, on other discussions about feeding that to some degree it's always a matter for trying thing until you find something that works. This is often frustrating but all I have to do is think about my roommates Beagle who had horrible skin problems until I asked a Beagle breeder at a dog show what he fed--he told me and I swear if you read the label it looked more like floor sweepings than dog food --very low % of both fat and protein. But all the skin issues went away...
Good luck with figuring out what will work for your boy.
|03-07-2020 11:50 AM|
|Rosemary||I would talk to your vet, and see about maybe putting him on something like Hill's ID until his digestive system calms down, and then start a slow transition to a regular grain-inclusive food.|
|03-07-2020 11:12 AM|
Thank you guys for the food chats! And thanks for the again reassurance. In regards to my pups loose yellow stool we too tried Focus PPP Sensitive Stomach on an extremely slow transition and his stomach got worse too! So many people rave about it I was sure he’d be good on it but as said every dobie is different 😢 we were looking into lamb based next but now I’m not sure! We were thinking about trying Victors grain-inclusive versions of food next but I don’t know which one. He’s also having anal gland issues because of his low quality food so I’m wondering if I need to find him a higher fiber food and Victor is less fiber.. we also have considered a Limited Ingredient diet to try and calm his tummy, has anyone had luck specifically with any LID? If so what brand? |
Also in response to a previous comment luckily he is not a anxious chewer so he has not tried to pull the blanket through his crate. We actually have left a pillow in there for him he hasn’t tried to destroy or even chew at all, thankfully.
|03-06-2020 06:28 PM|
Of course, to each their own, but...most of the very experienced, long-time Doberman folks recommend keeping puppies on the food they arrive on, no matter how "bad" you think it is, for a good three months. Transitioning to a new home is a big change. Adding a food change, even slow, is often simply too much.
You'll also find lots and lots of long-time Doberman folks that have fed Proplan for decades with great results. (For example, dobebug has had Dobermans for, what, over 30 years now? More? And they've lived an average of 10 years or more, all eating Proplan. Her last boy was 14. On Proplan. I know of many, many, many similar stories.
Again, feed what you want. Your dog, your choice.
|03-06-2020 05:29 PM|
Originally Posted by Rosemary View Post
It all basically comes down to what works best for your dog.
|03-06-2020 05:05 PM|
|Rosemary|| https://thesciencedog.com/2017/02/01...ility-matters/ |
I've never had a dog do really well on any lamb based kibble. And I tried a LOT of different brands with dogs of different breeds/mixes. They always wound up with noxious gas and dry, flaky skin. With my GSD, I seem to have the best luck with salmon based kibble (Pro Plan has been the best, IMO).
|03-06-2020 05:04 PM|
|03-06-2020 04:50 PM|
|03-06-2020 04:46 PM|
I read that chicken and beef are the least digestible proteins because they are considered "hard" proteins. Salmon is one of the easiest to digest and lamb is also good. Maybe, some lamb based kibble is better than others. My pup had a bad reaction to Nutro lamb and rice and is doing well on Farmina. He also liked Salmon and Oatmeal recipe for puppies from Canidae PURE, but the Canidae formula is only sold in 4 lb bags.
When I got my pup, I switched him from Purina ProPlan to Orijen for large puppies. He finished the first 20+ lb. bag with no problems, and started having the sh**ts on the 2nd bag. Since then, I went through an impressive collection of kibble in search of the one that works. My vet said that it's a trial and error when it comes with sensitive stomachs.
I normally stay away from multi-protein kibble because they are too potent for sensitive stomachs.
|03-06-2020 04:22 PM|
I tried it many years ago when it first appeared in the market place as the answer to allergy problems since in the 60's when it first showed up and was recommended the only common meats used for kibble were beef, chicken and horsemeat. Lamb was a novel protein and recommended for dogs suspected of having food allergies. Over the years I tried lamb three different times--the first was one that had rice as the carb component, the second try was with (I think, a lentle carb and the third was with pea).
I had the same issue with all three--less than six weeks of feeding any of them the Dobe's coats looked bad and it was very hard to keep weight on them--and if I gave more food to deal with the weight loss they ended up with soft stools and sometimes diarrhea.
Just recently someone posted some information about digestability of various protein's in kibble and how it affected the use of the the kibble in terms of maintenance. Turned out the lamb is ranked as the least digestable of animal protein and chicken and salmon rated the highest. So all these years later I finally had a reasonable explanation of why the coats and weight issues I found linked to lamb.
Of course not all dogs respond well to the same formulas but I've pretty much used Focus ProPlan Sensitive Skin and Stomach (it's actually a salmon and rice formula for many years now) it's worked well for me. The one dog it wasn't working for did well on the Focus Chicken and Rice formulas.
It tends to make me happy when something I found from application turned out, when science caught up with it, to be backed by newer studies.
|03-06-2020 11:42 AM|
Update on poopz: |
Per vet's advice with respect to diarrhea, we switched to lamb and rice recipe and I experimented with different brands to see what works best. My pup has always done well on Taste of the Wild, and TotW has come up with lamb and ancestral grains recipe for all life stages, including 70+lbs. dogs. Nutro lamb + rice for large breed puppies did not work out, it gave him yellow loose stool.
Lately, I've been feeding him Farmina N&D lamb with ancestral grains + blueberry formula. It's an Italian brand, AAFCO statement included, sold on Chewy. It gave us solid brown poopz and we'll be sticking with it for the foreseeable future.
|03-06-2020 10:15 AM|
|03-05-2020 08:48 PM|
|melbrod||Oh....another thought...if he is at all a chewer, be careful that he can't manage to get ahold of the blanket through the bars. You don't want him to be able to get pieces of it off to swallow.|
|03-05-2020 07:40 PM|
Thank you all for the advice! I guess I just need to wait it out, |
In an attempt to try and respond to all of you:
I do cover his crate with a blanket, I have also tried without but doesn't make much difference, and letting him see what's going on doesn't really phase him bc he's usually I'm his crate because I'm leaving anyways so not much to see lol.
I have fed him in his crate since day one of getting him home at 9 weeks to try and create that positive association as well.
I also agree that he should be fine in yogurt bc it is processed differently (I know that but I didn't wanna deal with trying to argue the vet over it for telling me he can't have it bc it's dairy😂 but i think I'm still gonna wait until his stomach issues have settled before returning it to his diet.
Overall, based on your comments I think I've done everything I need to and just need to keep at it. Hopefully it gets better with time!
Thanks so much💛
|03-03-2020 06:13 PM|
One of our vet tech's shed some light on that for me and the vet who was listening to the conversation added a little more information.
Our vet tech was lactose intolerant. Very. And while she couldn't drink milk or each ice cream she could eat yogurt or cottage chess without having to take the pills that a lot of lactose intolerant people need to take to be able to handle any milk product.
Her doctor said that because yogurt andcottage cheese are actually a partially processed milk products most people, even those who are very lactose intolerant can handle both of them.
That vet--who is our nutritionist--said that it is also true of dogs--and even cats.
So I wouldn't stop giving yogurt or cottage chess unless there is some reason that your puppy seems be to reacting to it.
I'm another one who doesn't let puppies out of crates if they are crying, whining, barking or generally having a hissy fit. When they stop having a melt down then they get to come out. I've got 60 years of raising puppies and all of them except the first two were crate trained. After those two crates got a lot less expensive and since I've been showing my dogs since the first they are now all crate trained. But I remember the day of having to stand and hold my dogs at shows because the only people who had crates if you go back far enough were the professional handlers.
Some puppies just take longer than others to get the message.
|03-03-2020 03:25 PM|
After you open the door, you can give him a treat then, while he is calm and before he is allowed out. Or give him a treat and your attention even before you open the door if he's staying reasonably calm when you go near the crate. If he tries to charge out, use your body to block the doorway or close the door in his face. Have a key word/command you use to tell him he needs to stay in the crate and then one to release him--my old standby "wait" and my release word "OK" makes sense, because I use the same thing to keep him from dashing out a door, or jumping out of the car, or similar things. |
Once you've let him out, just be calm and matter of fact around him. You don't need to go through a big greeting thing, and you don't want to treat him right away--then you're rewarding the wrong thing.
The same thing applies to a stay. You reward while they are obeying the order--the stay--and then go on with your ordinary business after you've released them.
|03-03-2020 03:13 PM|
|Mari LeFebvre||I would also add to make sure your behavior is calm when letting him out of the crate, and not letting him dash out. When you get home, don't greet him or make a fuss. When you open the crate, make sure he doesn't leave the crate until you say so and he can calmly exit. Doing crate drills as practice can also help desensitize him to the crate and help him learn that getting in and out of the crate is no big deal.|
|03-03-2020 02:30 PM|
You can soak the kibble until it's mush, and use it that way. You can also try the canned I/D from the vet that brw1982 recommends, if your vet will prescribe it. |
Dogs can eat yogurt, if they can tolerate it. Mine eat it all the time, along with cottage cheese, and a variety of other foods. Yours may be able to eat it after you figure out his digestive issues.
I disagree about letting him out when he whines - what that teaches a puppy is that when he whines, he gets out of the crate. Some whining with a young pup in the crate is normal. I'd recommend checking out the link Rosemary provided. I'd also start feeding regular meals in your pup's crate to create more positive associations in there. You can also search Susan Garrett's "Crate Games" for more ideas on how to teach your pup to like his crate.
Have you tried covering the crate? Or, if it's covered, uncovering it? Check out Mel's link, too.
You'll get there. Patience is key!
|03-02-2020 07:30 PM|
You know your dog better than anyone else and have a plan. Congrats on your pup! |
My dog Hoss was crate trained......but he liked to see what was going on ...so in turn we placed his crate in our TV area.
Thats was the center of all our activity and he could see into the master bedroom at night from his crate.
As Hoss matured we all seemed to settle into a routine.
You know, certain things happen at certain times.
So between a daily routine and being placed in a central area things Worked out real good ďin timeĒ.
And of course at 4 months they are still babies, shoot not that long ago they resided with their litter mates , so it will get better.
They learn that you will leave and you always return.
Crate training was important because of all the hurricanes in Florida and in the event Hoss might need to be crated at the Vets office.
I figured I would rather him adapt to a crate with me versus his first experience via vets office.
|03-02-2020 07:06 PM|
Thank you so much for all the advice!! I will continue with the crate as I need to, I tried the previously suggested kong filled with soaked kibble and he did great! I had to leave for an hour today and he did cry off and on but he calmed down a lot and played with his Kong☺️ |
I really appreciate the advice on tips for letting him have free range! I want to get there eventually but his is still nosey of our very very expensive home theater speakers so until he learns to stay away from those I don’t trust it 😅 I will continue teaching him what’s his and ours, and using his crate as necessary ☺️ I know he’ll probably never love it he’s just a Velcro dobie through and through but I have hopes it will get easier!
|03-01-2020 08:11 PM|
- some Dobe pups, will never like a crate // there I said it and we fine, with it
- we've had 3 pups since 1977, and the last 2 was completely trained at 4.5 months young...to be safe, home alone
- like your family, our pups sleep in the Master bed...and so they are supervisor'ed 24/7, for the most part
Our girls are babied & spoiled and talked with very much, so crate isolation is more like jail time.
- our 2nd girl, would cry non stop for 1.5 hours straight, until adult son came back from school
- she only stop crying if she was planning a crate escape / and one day she unlocked the cage door
- she was only 4.5 months young, and nothing destroyed
- next day when son went to HS, he left her on the expensive leather recliner
- came back 1.5 hours later, and all OK
- so she was given the freedoms early & never disappointed us
Last puppy was ""hell on wheels" prey drive, and I doubted my beginners luck.
- but we trained her the same exact way, and each toy had a Love name
- and with each toy, came rules & responsibility
- hard toys are for destroying
- soft stuffy toys, are for holding & soft bite...forbidden, is ripping out cotton balls
- the side effect of this training, from week1...couch blankets, pillows, oak coffee table legs are adult things...and treated with respect
- at 10 weeks old, Kelly was trained to help mom unload the cloth dryer
- she got to mouth one of dads socks or a pair of undies...and return to bedroom dressers, with mom
- so early on, she learned her toy, and mom & dad stuff
- now she loves to great mom, returning from office...holding her slipper, its so cute
^^ And the pup was tested at 4.5 months old, just like the last one.
- I come home, to a happy pup...and nothing wrecked
- her dog bed was a new leather sectional, and left alone with the TV on
- no crate setup, no baby gates, etc.
As far as soft stool problems, Kelly was plagued with this off & on for 6 years.
- she was on expensive kibble, but the meat protein was too high
- look for a 24% max. protein...trust me
- Kelly has perfect stools now, and her Liver is no longer over-taxed
- plus mom home cooks to, a Low Fat / High Carb diet // we spent a $1,000 to find this KSF
(white fish or salmon / corn flakes / sweet potato / hamburger / frozen veggies / white rice / spinach or kale / etc. >> week supply, cooked in a crock pot)
- never use Science Diet crap (Kelly throws up on it) / look for vet Royal Canine instead (she on Lot Fat Gastro-Intestinal)
- puppies always eat, +50% than adult weight guide-line feeding chart
Plus I do all my training without treats, I tried Kelly a few times at a reno. job site to go into a crate, she was not interested in a treat. Soon she was yelling & crying, until the grate door was opened.
- so I felt, screw that // crate rejection isn't something to stress over, just work around it
- I can train a pup to respect human belongings...and it was easy, with a watchful eye
|03-01-2020 07:32 PM|
There are some differing opinions concerning how to manage crate training here. If you glance at this thread, you will find a more complete discussion, including some links which go into even more details: |
It sounds like you're making progress, Katlin. You may not need to do much more than you are already doing, in terms of the technique you're using.
|03-01-2020 06:49 PM|
You are welcome. |
Correcting your dog will train him that crying in a crate is unacceptable behavior and he will stop doing it.
Anyways, I hope you guys figure it out. Good luck!
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