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07-16-2019 10:03 AM
Rosemary This one week workshop on multiple dog households starts July 21st. https://www.fenzidogsportsacademy.co.../courses/23638 While the Fenzi Pet Professionals Program is technically geared towards people who train other people and their dogs, anyone can take the workshops. I'm already in one about canine body language, and am going to be taking this one, as well.
07-15-2019 12:04 PM
triciakoontz Such great advice throughout this thread! Iíve had many pairs of dogs at the same time, only ever had one pair that were tolerant enough of each other and RELAXED ENOUGH around each other to not require a human referee. Iíve always had opposite sex pairs and they can absolutely get into ferocious arguments, especially when the personality types are quite different. Iíve never had a Doberman that didnít have a very strong personality with very strong opinions.

I board dogs all the time and Boon is happy as a clam, smiling and wagging his tail at them, all through the consistently applied barrier of an ex pen. Although he has played happily with the two dogs Iíve fostered, and always interacted respectfully with (Queen) Bella when she was alive, when heís resting on his dog bed or in his crate, he does NOT want his space invaded and he will let any dog know his opinion on that, so I am vigilant to help maintain his space bubble.

Every Doberman Iíve had, except Bella, could not be left out loose with another dog while Iím gone. Not reactive, just very strong minded, short tempered, and not going to back down on a fight, if it were to occur. Bella would not have backed down but she knew how to keep discipline without ever starting a fight.

I have often wondered how breeders keep the peace around the household with 3-5 Dobermans. I have observed at the two breeders Iíve visited that it takes a whole lot of energy and devotion to rotation of space. Thatís what they get paid the big buck$ for, right?? NOT!! Seriously, just another reason to deeply admire anyone who has the courage to breed in a reputable way.
07-14-2019 11:38 PM
4x4bike ped
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ed1979 View Post
Can I buy a male puppy from you that I can breed my bitch to?[emoji23][emoji23][emoji23]

Sent from my LG-H872 using Tapatalk
LOL

John
Portland OR
07-14-2019 09:12 PM
Ed1979
Quote:
Originally Posted by 4x4bike ped View Post
This thread has gotten really weird.

Just my uninformed opinion:

-Bag the new bitch thing. You have 2 Dobes and you already have health issues with the first female.

-Forget the possible "breeding plans". Breeding the way you are describing I a terrible idea.This breed is already fraught with intrinsic heath issues. There is no need for a neophyte wannabe BYB to make things worse.

-Yeah perhaps I am coming of a bit harsh. It is really not my style. Yet, this has been my breed of choice for over 40 years Sometimes I just get pissed off

John
Portland OR
Can I buy a male puppy from you that I can breed my bitch to?[emoji23][emoji23][emoji23]

Sent from my LG-H872 using Tapatalk
06-10-2019 07:42 AM
ECIN Good morning all ! WOW - TN hit the nail on the head didn't he ? Interesting tread , to me - A Book of knowledge on here posting - I did read all the replies - and what I have picked up - Lots talking - Or I should say typing from the heart about our , there Dobers , personal accounts , real life experience .

That said - We have had different breed couples and 1 pair of Doberman females here on the farm - we had 2 pairs - of Doberman and Aussie's - one pair - both females and 1 pair a female Dober and a Male Aussie = like Mel had said - the mixed worked very well and talk about best friends right from the get go !

Then we had out first pair of Dobermans - both females in 2008 - Ali was born in 2007 but we did not get her till early Jan of 08 . Now you will all think I'm crazy here - But we hurt Kasia's feeling's bringing home a new pup - I think she thought we were replacing her - She would have nothing to do with Ali . Kasia even took all of her balls to a back bedroom - put them all in a pile - Ali was to NOT play with HER toys .

One day at the Vets - Doctor H said they would be best friends and it would help keep Kasia young - My friends - that took 2 years before it happened . And yes - they were the best of friends ! When Kasia would have a seizure , Ali would lay next to her and would not leave her side till Kasia got up , The day it was time for Kasia to go to the Bridge - Ali cried and cried - she sounded like a person crying .- So yes - our 2 got along great - never one moment they ever showed there teeth to one another , But we never , never left them together when we left and they were always supervised when we were here -- just like another posted and mentioned .

Now we have Ali and Mr. Business - I was very worried about this pair from the get go , We had never had a Male Dober before and I Knew that Mr. B would be more powerful than Ali - When we picked up Mr. B , I told Cindy about my concern - She said don't you worry about Ali - She will take care of herself ! Boy has she - lol Mr. B tested her - just playing - She then put him in his place - he would come crying to old dad : ))

They do play hard - lol Never any aggression to each other - they also are never left together when we are gone .

Now after our life story on our dogs - What I have found more than anything is that they are like people - they all have there own personality- we have been blessed with good temperament Dobers - nock on wood . Yet like people - some just don't or never will get along - What I'm saying is that even after all the years of having pairs - I can not guarantee that yours or our next Dobers will be great friends -

As other have said - a good temperament breed is a good start .

I will also add that I do have time for both of our Dobies - One perk of farming - We are around here a lot and devote the time and training to them and I will say - that is a full meal deal for me . Like I have said before - They not only require time , but they demand It - I have a very hard time seeing anybody to have devoted time to as many as 6 to 9 puppies at one time - with Vet trips and training - to me , that in it's self would be a full time job - lol

I always remember one of Meadowcats post to another asking questions one time - MC said when having two Dobers - it's not 2 times the work ! It's more - I would say like X's 3 or 4 sometimes - She nailed that one - and it's so true for what ever reason .

To me - It's more important to have and to share quality time with your Dobermans - the love and devotion they give in return is unmeasurable and very rewarding to both us and them .

You asked - and you received some great advise from some of the best of the best on this site - take that knowledge and use it to your advantage - you will not lose using it - but only learn and better your self down the road as a Dober owner .

Best of luck !

Doc
06-09-2019 11:26 PM
4x4bike ped
Quote:
Originally Posted by TNfisher View Post
99% of the time I don't weigh in on threads because I've only owned a Doberman for 5 years and even though I've put my heart and soul into this girl, I'm a baby compared to a lot of the folks on here who have been around this breed for most of their lives. So when it comes to matters like breeding, health, training, feeding etc, I read the replies and try to learn more from the experts on here because a Doberman will be all I'll have till I get too old to have one LOL.

Having said that, I do feel that sometimes you have to be blunt with folks instead of pampering them, especially the ones who come in with their minds already made up yet asking for advice anyway and then arguing about it instead of realizing that they're receiving words of wisdom from people who've had this breed longer than the OP has been alive
Well said... I frequently have to hold back, which is why I mostly respond to upbeat and fun conversations.

Still....

John
Portland OR
06-08-2019 01:55 PM
TNfisher
Quote:
Originally Posted by 4x4bike ped View Post
Yeah TN... You may have disagreed with GR (Karen), but you were just expressing you opinion, which is what forums like these are all about.

The folks that I was referring to were rude and demeaning to people they disagreed with, especially newcomers just looking for answers.

That was never you

John
Portland OR
99% of the time I don't weigh in on threads because I've only owned a Doberman for 5 years and even though I've put my heart and soul into this girl, I'm a baby compared to a lot of the folks on here who have been around this breed for most of their lives. So when it comes to matters like breeding, health, training, feeding etc, I read the replies and try to learn more from the experts on here because a Doberman will be all I'll have till I get too old to have one LOL.

Having said that, I do feel that sometimes you have to be blunt with folks instead of pampering them, especially the ones who come in with their minds already made up yet asking for advice anyway and then arguing about it instead of realizing that they're receiving words of wisdom from people who've had this breed longer than the OP has been alive
06-08-2019 12:36 PM
4x4bike ped
Quote:
Originally Posted by TNfisher View Post
I'm still here

And I agree; this is one of the best threads I've seen on DT in a while. So much info and experience weighing in.
Yeah TN... You may have disagreed with GR (Karen), but you were just expressing you opinion, which is what forums like these are all about.

The folks that I was referring to were rude and demeaning to people they disagreed with, especially newcomers just looking for answers.

That was never you

John
Portland OR
06-08-2019 09:54 AM
VZ-Doberman Just to let you know......I've been called worse by better people. LOL
06-08-2019 07:36 AM
TNfisher
Quote:
Originally Posted by 4x4bike ped View Post
You took so much sh!t here, yet you persevered. Most of those A-holes are gone. People are so nice and helpful on DT these days!

John
I'm still here

And I agree; this is one of the best threads I've seen on DT in a while. So much info and experience weighing in.
06-08-2019 12:28 AM
Charcoaldreams The main reason I posted in this sub forum was because from speaking with different breeders they have multiple females in the home so I wanted to know what experience they had with that. I don't get on this website often but Ive read every post
06-07-2019 05:37 PM
Gretchen_Red
Quote:
Originally Posted by 4x4bike ped View Post
@ GR...

You took so much sh!t here, yet you persevered. Most of those A-holes are gone. People are so nice and helpful on DT these days!

John
Are you saying I'm an A-hole John???? If so you'd be correct. Of course most dobes are A-holes too so I guess that's why I get along with them so well lol.
06-07-2019 03:01 PM
4x4bike ped @ GR...

"I actually don't really want to be a breeder."

LOL Karen. I love you girl... But that is so much BS! You definitely want to be a breeder.

A breeder of healthy, happy, well-bred Dobermans. Helping the breed.

You took so much sh!t here, yet you persevered. Most of those A-holes are gone. People are so nice and helpful on DT these days!

Well WTF!

Best to you, GR, Mav and Kya..

John
06-07-2019 10:55 AM
Louise&Aaron
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gretchen_Red View Post





If the OP comes back I'll tell you I looked up the dogs pedigrees from Doberland, what you don't know about me is that I keep a pedigree spreadsheet of all the dogs that died of DCM around the world. I'm fairly certain I know what ones contribute to the gene. There are some beautiful dogs in the pedigrees of Doberland but there are also many dogs that are connected to DCM that I wouldn't want to continue on in my breeding program.


Oh wow your spreadsheet sounds amazing!!!!!!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
06-07-2019 10:12 AM
Gretchen_Red I actually don't really want to be a breeder. I am a happy 2 dog person who is just happy training, hiking, competing and loving on my dogs. But I truly don't believe there are many good breeders out there. I can count on one hand how many breeders I would recommend to others and still have some fingers left over lol. You wouldn't believe the slack I get from stud owners who tell me, "DCM is everywhere". Yes, it is but I'm not going to breed to a dog who doubles or triples up the dogs I already wish weren't in the pedigree in the first place. My breeder often says I'm looking for unicorns, possibly. I honestly could see myself getting out of conformation some day because too many conformation people are breeding to win and not for health, which makes getting a CH on our dogs that do have health and longevity and can work harder and harder. I often times wish my dogs had a better head, or better angles or a nicer neck set and I'll see that dog that makes my jaw drop and then I'll look up the pedigree and my jaw once again drops. Honestly I'm SHOCKED at some of the breedings I see. It's as if some people have all but given up and they just breed to the next best thing without a care to who is in the pedigree.


If the OP comes back I'll tell you I looked up the dogs pedigrees from Doberland, what you don't know about me is that I keep a pedigree spreadsheet of all the dogs that died of DCM around the world. I'm fairly certain I know what ones contribute to the gene. There are some beautiful dogs in the pedigrees of Doberland but there are also many dogs that are connected to DCM that I wouldn't want to continue on in my breeding program.
06-07-2019 09:35 AM
dobebug Sandy,

I pretty much decided I didn't want to be a breeder in the first 5 years I had Dobes. I had one bitch and bred one litter--had two puppies and was so picky about choosing suitable homes that it took forever. That's when it occurred to me that I didn't one really required trait of a good breeder--I didn't want to let the puppies go!

Since then, I've kept only males and let experienced breeders who are testing showing in conformation and/or performance of some sort breed puppies and pick out one for me when I have an opening for another dog.

And for the record I health test my males (whether they are going to be bred or not-- I leave that up to their breeder) because I think for breeders knowing what is turning up in lateral lines as well as direct lines is for them.

dobebug
06-07-2019 12:12 AM
sandy2233 SE's hips & elbows for OFA $260 plus the OFA fee, her crop (paid by breeder) $600.00, Testing PDK4 from North Carolina $110.00, Thyroid and eye for OfA $90.00 plus OFA fee, Electrocardiogram $180.00 plus OFA fee, 1st Holter fee $100.00 and OFA fee) 2nd and 3rd Holters $60.00 (I used our club holter) and 3 exams by cardiologist at CSU $300.00. I didn't have her vwd test done, breeder did. These are minimum amount of tests that I would expect on a potential puppy. I just am informing you of tests that need to be done on sire and dam before they are bred. Plus some kind of working titles and trust me training isn't cheap, neither is dog showing. Confirmation or Obedience. Just say one litter of 7 puppies times all of this. I can't afford to raise puppies. Nor do I want to. I benefit from other people's knowledge that know way more than I do. All I want is a dog that will live long enough to accomplish higher performance obedience levels. It hurts to invest so much into a dog and have them not live long enough to acquire these titles. Some of the breeders on this forum have been in the business for decades. My costs for some of these tests were less as I work at vet's clinic, but these are the fees that would be charged to the public. Puppies, nah. Not for me.
06-06-2019 10:39 PM
melbrod Their last activity was a couple of days ago. Oh well, maybe someone else with the same questions will benefit from what has been said here.
06-06-2019 10:19 PM
4x4bike ped So... I hope Charcoaldreams is still hanging around.

This thread has some of the best advice that I have ever read (anecdotally) with respect to hands on dealing with SSA.

With respect comments on breeding, the OP's open thread was put on the "Breeding and. Breeders forum.

@ Charcoaldreams. I hope you return and read these posts with the thoughtful spirit that they were intended.

John
Portland OR
06-06-2019 12:16 AM
Fitzmar Dobermans
Quote:
Originally Posted by brw1982 View Post
I successfully had two bitches together for nearly a decade. They were best-friends AFTER some rocky events early on that resulted in some puncture wounds and periods of crate-and-rotate and serious revision of dog management and house rules.

In my experience, you need the right combination of temperaments for it to work. Spaying has nothing to do with it - both my girls were spayed. And you have to be on your toes to stop potential problems, and be strict and fair in your response; i.e., no one is ever allowed to ignore the rules on anything that could trigger a problem.

My girls had a few fights when my youngest got to be around 1.5-2 years old and she decided to push boundaries with my other girl who was a year older. So, my younger girl often instigated if I didn't stay on her. She was just being young, pushy, and stupid. And my older girl was a bitch that wouldn't start problems but she would end them. She was a sharp girl anyway and there's more to her story than just this, but in short, I was the only person that I trusted to be able to intervene once her switch was flipped. So that also complicated things.

General house rules were:

1. They were never left out together unsupervised. Someone was *always* crated when we weren't home. And, at first, they couldn't be left out together unless I specifically was home because my SO couldn't handle them.

2. Certain groups of toys were supervision only. And by supervision, I mean I would get them out when I decided and tell each girl where they could hang out and enjoy their toys. And if one of my girls so much as looked at the other with a toy, that was it. Toys were taken away.

3. They were fed in separate rooms. High value chews were given in crates. If any body got tense about it, chews were taken away.

4. NO POSTURING. EVER. OVER ANYTHING. No staring down, no standing over, no possession of anything allowed. Everything was mine. If either one acted toward the other like they owned anything, I took it from them.

5. Growling was allowed to communicate with each other but no one was allowed to snarl. Growls were strongly enforced, by me (if the recipient tried to ignore or challenge it) so there was never any reason for things to escalate to teeth.

6. Play was heavily monitored and refereed. Early on, I would end play sessions periodically and well before anyone was worked up just to keep things from getting anywhere near problematic and keep everyone thinking clearly while being active.

Over the years, they became best-friends and I think they were able to develop that bond because of the strict rules I implemented, in addition to their temperaments being suited to it. It removed the potential for either one to control anything. Once any chance for competition was destroyed, they could relax with one another. But it was work to get there and house rules were house rules for their entire lives. No playing favorites, no letting up for good behavior. Rules were rules, period.

Both of my girls were healthy and in their prime at the time and they both put holes in each other on (thankfully, only) a few occasions until I was able to sort it out. You say that your current girl has early signs of spondylosis? I would seriously think about what position you might be putting her in if she were to end up in even one fight with another, presumably healthy, adult Dobe bitch. What might happen to her spine if she's attacked?

Not everyone's bitches fight even one time. But I know of enough who have that I wouldn't totally dismiss it as a concern, especially considering your current girl's spinal condition that greatly elevates her risk of serious injury.

ETA...Also, you realize you posted this in "Breeding and Breeders," right? If you didn't want opinions on breeding maybe this wasn't the best sub-forum...? LOL Just sayin'.
^^^^^This is fabulous!! I am living almost this exact scenario right now except that there is 6 years age difference in my two girls. I also have an old male who totally stays out of bitch issues - he is NO dummy haha! I have added training collars to my girls and they have learned to respect the audible buzz.
This is the second time I've had SSA issues with two girls. As I've never had two boys, I don't have to worry about that.
06-05-2019 04:31 PM
brw1982
Quote:
Originally Posted by MaryAndDobes View Post
I remember reading in the past on a vet's website that used to post a lot of interesting studies that if you have 2 bitches with no problems that spaying or not spaying is probably not going to change that. But, if you had bitches with aggression problems that spaying had a high likelihood of making it worse.
Interesting! Both my girls were spayed before they met. Fiona and Tali were both spayed around 6-7 months of age, and Fiona was 1 year and Tali was 2 years old the first time they met. They lived together peacefully for about 6 months before Fiona decided to start anything. It took me about 1.5 years to work out all the kinks but, fortunately, it could be worked out.

But I really don't know how much of my girls' conflicts was due to SSA so much as it seemed to me like Fiona was being pushy and trying to be domineering as she matured, and Tali never tolerated that from anyone whether she liked you or not. I could be wrong, but I think if it had actually been true SSA and not just Fiona growing up, then it probably couldn't have been worked out.


Quote:
Originally Posted by dobebug View Post
That's probably the only significant place John's Rules deviate from mine. While the dogs are separated if I'm not home--either in crates or in rooms at night we are all in the same bedroom and the rule is "this is where you sleep and do NOTHING else."
Same here. My girls slept in bed with us. They had their designated spots and they went right to them and stayed there. Because if/when they tried to move around and pick their own spot, they lost bed privileges for a time. And once a Doberman has experienced bed privileges, they do NOT want to lose them. hahahaha
06-05-2019 03:31 PM
Cressrb Lol, Dobebug, not at your experience, but I have been there done that. These dogs teach you fast how to read body language and you better not forget.
06-05-2019 02:18 PM
dobebug @brw and 4x4 (john)

I know that John and I have similar rules and they are fully enforced and my rules, like his, are also VERY similar to brw's great laundry list of do's and don't if you expect to keep multples of either sex.

Personally I think the NO POSTURING rule tends to show up early with people and dogs who are showing dogs in either conformation or any AKC type of performance venue. People always wonder how the dogs at dog shows seem to be so mellow especially when a bunch of them are standing close together and waiting to go in a ring.

I can tell you why--it doesn't take more than one incident for an embarrassed newby to learn that you don't EVER let your dog start something by giving the old hairy eyeball to another dog within reach.

Ditto for starting arguments about possession of toys, chews, bones, beds or owners.

I've got a lot of experience about what not to do since I have kept multiple males for many years--without problems. Even so, I got caught up in one of those "I only looked away for a minute!" situations. Two of the males and I were in the back yard, early one morning--I was watering a tomato bed and the dogs, a five year old and a two year old were doing dog stuff--I walked around the corner of the house to turn off the hose and headr the sound of some dog challenging some other dog and ran for the back.

The five year old dog was one of smaller adult males I've ever had --not quite 27" and around 75 pounds in agility weight--the other dog, my very sweet fawn Toad was 28-1/2" and in show weigh right around 90 pounds.

They were fully engaged and paying no attention to me, not what said to them nor to the plastic leaf rake I was thumping them with. Toad didn't want to have me smack him with the rake--Rumor (the bad, who evidently had grown up on a back street where gangs prevailed and was a very dirty fighter) didn't care. I managed to get them around the side of the house and back by the back door when Rumor let go of whatever piece of Toad he had clenched in his teeth and grabbed him by his nose.

Half of the fighters kept snarling but the Toad half switched to crying his eyes out and tried to give up--at that point I got a loop of the garden hose around Rumor's neck and cut off enough air he opened his mouth--I shoved the slider open and bodily pushed Toad through the door and slammed it before Rumor could get loose again.

Toad had disappeared--he was in the bedroom trying to shove his large self under my bed. Rumor was in the crate in the kitchen by then and I needed to go to work. At the vet clinic.

So if all the noise, fighting and bad behavior wasn't enough I got the two dogs in the crates in the back of my truck and went back in for my purse--when I came out the second time there was a Multnomah County Animal Service truck pulled up behind my truck. Oh oh! The deputy said dog fighting was being conducted in a house in the neighborhood--she stepped out and said "Don't you work for XXXXXXX Vet Clinic...?" Uh, yes, that was me and I recognized her...she showed very nice Cairn Terriers, I knew her, my breeder knew her, we knew her at the vet clinic.

She laughed a lot, probably at the expression on my face and remarked that she knew damned good and well I wasn't running illegal dog fighting rings with my show Dobermans.

And so vowing that no two males were ever going out to play without having muzzles on (nothing starts an adult dog fight like a dumb younger dog who bites his playmate too hard) the dogs and I went to work where the surgical tech and my favorite vet patched them up--shaved holes all over the fawn dogs coat to clean up his wounds then we stood around and watched poor Toad's nose swell.

So that's the biggest rule--do not leave two or more dogs unattended even if it's just for a minute.

By evening Toad and Rumor were sleeping on the same dog bed next to my bed and the senior Dobe had the other bedroom dog bed all to himself.

That's probably the only significant place John's Rules deviate from mine. While the dogs are separated if I'm not home--either in crates or in rooms at night we are all in the same bedroom and the rule is "this is where you sleep and do NOTHING else."

That's the closest I've actually come to a full on dog fight in all those years of nothing but males.

dobebug
06-05-2019 01:49 PM
Rosemary Like everything else with dogs, the answer to "Will two bitches get along" is "It depends".

I currently have two bitches, a GSD and APBT. Until 2017, I also had a mixed breed bitch. I lived in a strict crate and rotate system with the three of them. And when I say strict, I mean that only two of them were out at any given time, while the third was crated. The one time I tried all three loose, I had a squabble that was thankfully got stopped before it really got started, but it scared the ever-loving bejeebers out of me. I knew then that if I was alone and something started, I was out numbered and outgunned when it came to sheer damage power, and someone (probably myself and/or the little pittie) was going to come out on the losing end.

Even with rotating pairs, I had to watch the mutt like a hawk when she and the pittie were out, because the mutt was a snarky, bitchy bitch who was also a serious resource guarder. Even with the troublemaker gone (and mourned still), to this day, the pittie and shepherd are crated when I'm gone, and while rough play is allowed, posturing and pestering aren't.

Add in wanting to breed, with no plans to sell or otherwise rehome upwards of a dozen puppies, that's just asking for trouble.
06-05-2019 11:04 AM
MaryAndDobes
Quote:
Originally Posted by brw1982 View Post
In my experience, you need the right combination of temperaments for it to work. Spaying has nothing to do with it - both my girls were spayed.
I remember reading in the past on a vet's website that used to post a lot of interesting studies that if you have 2 bitches with no problems that spaying or not spaying is probably not going to change that. But, if you had bitches with aggression problems that spaying had a high likelihood of making it worse.
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