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12-01-2017 10:01 AM
Rosemary
Quote:
Originally Posted by BudnHouston View Post

I think I can make it Saturday. How do I find you? Any particular time work better for you?
According to the judging program, Dobermans will be showing in ring 11 at 12:20 on Saturday.
12-01-2017 08:56 AM
BudnHouston
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dobiewankanobi View Post
I don't make puppies available for discount for a missing testicle. I WOULD offer to pay for a portion of the neuter or have it done at my vet where I would cover the cost. Though, my puppy price would really still be the same.

And No. I do not charge more for show prospects than pet puppies. I sell ALL of my pups for the same price. It's a two fold reason really. 1. It costs me just as much to produce a show puppy as it does a pet. Pets aren't given less care. Pets aren't given cheaper crops or other veterinary care. Pets, in my breeding program and in the programs of many others, are treated just as well as any potential show prospect. 2. I'm not psychic. A promising puppy at 8-12 weeks could very well turn into a pet. And I've got a return contingency in my contract for just that. However, many times a beautiful pet goes on to finish its championship. Its easier to sell them all at one price and not have to worry about returning funds or charging someone extra to transfer their registration to full which allows them to show. But, again, it simply costs me the exact same amount to raise a pet as it does a show prospect. Frankly, based on what the other breeders in our area are charging, apparently i'm not charging enough! But my prices are right in line with the average and I have a day job. So I just try to recoup the costs of breeding a litter in general (which usually doesn't happen).

I'm harder to catch on the weekends (busy show schedule), but if you have time to come by the Conroe shows this weekend that's where I'll be Friday - Sunday. I would be happy to take a look and see what we can do to help his ears.
Very thoughtful. I like the way you price and place your puppies.

I think I can make it Saturday. How do I find you? Any particular time work better for you?
11-30-2017 01:25 PM
Dobiewankanobi
Quote:
Originally Posted by BudnHouston View Post

"Don't you charge less for your pet puppies than top show prospects? Just asking."



Thanks for your help. I'd sure like to bring Jefe by your place. Have you take a look, offer your opinion/suggestions. It's hard to write everything without sounding mad all the time. I'm really not an angry person, promise.
I don't make puppies available for discount for a missing testicle. I WOULD offer to pay for a portion of the neuter or have it done at my vet where I would cover the cost. Though, my puppy price would really still be the same.

And No. I do not charge more for show prospects than pet puppies. I sell ALL of my pups for the same price. It's a two fold reason really. 1. It costs me just as much to produce a show puppy as it does a pet. Pets aren't given less care. Pets aren't given cheaper crops or other veterinary care. Pets, in my breeding program and in the programs of many others, are treated just as well as any potential show prospect. 2. I'm not psychic. A promising puppy at 8-12 weeks could very well turn into a pet. And I've got a return contingency in my contract for just that. However, many times a beautiful pet goes on to finish its championship. Its easier to sell them all at one price and not have to worry about returning funds or charging someone extra to transfer their registration to full which allows them to show. But, again, it simply costs me the exact same amount to raise a pet as it does a show prospect. Frankly, based on what the other breeders in our area are charging, apparently i'm not charging enough! But my prices are right in line with the average and I have a day job. So I just try to recoup the costs of breeding a litter in general (which usually doesn't happen).

I'm harder to catch on the weekends (busy show schedule), but if you have time to come by the Conroe shows this weekend that's where I'll be Friday - Sunday. I would be happy to take a look and see what we can do to help his ears.
11-30-2017 01:17 PM
Dobiewankanobi
Quote:
Originally Posted by MeadowCat View Post
Wait a minute...does that mean I didn't ask for a super low key female that would just be lazy and want to do nothing? What kind of puppy did you send me???
You wanted a performance rock star! Performance rockstars do not sit on couches being lazy! LOL
11-30-2017 10:53 AM
BudnHouston
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dobiewankanobi View Post
I have to say this. I think, often times, we push ALL responsibility on a breeder. Sometimes this is true. There are breeders out there that play fast and loose with the truth. BUT, that is truly not the norm. If a buyer has a something that is non-negotiable, it's the buyer's responsibility to make that extra clear AND to verify that non-negotiable thing is not present in the puppy before any exchange of funds. For example, I have a buyer, and lord bless her because she owns another of mine and is a really great home, but she will ONLY consider a red male with a nose zipper. Non negotiable. And one day I hope that happens for her! But I certainly wouldn't try to swing a red male without a nose zipper under the radar to her. The same for you. If you do not want a dog with undescended testicles, then it's on you to make that clear and ensure that's not what you're taking home. IF you did that, then I would consider that breeder to potentially be shady.

"I may share some of the blame. I didn't make it a situation where it was my way or no way. Besides, I would have been negotiable. Uno only had one, his breeder told me the same thing. Oh, it'll probably drop later. Never did. That didn't keep Uno from being a perfect dog for us. If i'd have known, I would NOT have paid so much. One thing we definitely did was to speak very clearly that we didn't want another Cryptorchid dog. We clearly said "want", we never said we couldn't even consider one at the right price. Now, we're looking at $??? more dollars to eventually neuter. Shouldn't we be compensated?"

Further, when someone tells me that showing isn't a priority or they MAY try it...well I'm not going to send them a really nice show prospect that may never set foot in the ring. Showing is to further a breeding program. The goal being that if they're of good quality, they will contribute back to the gene pool. As someone else mentioned, sometimes the puppy with one testicle WAS the pick of a litter but for obvious reasons can't be shown.

"Completely understand that, and agree."

Do we know early? Yes. Fairly early. 7-8 weeks or so. After about 10 weeks, if I had one with an undescended testicle that's probably one I'm going to place in a pet home. I'm not going to hold out any hope that it will descend after that if it hasn't been up and down the whole time.

"Don't you charge less for your pet puppies than top show prospects? Just asking."



Thanks for your help. I'd sure like to bring Jefe by your place. Have you take a look, offer your opinion/suggestions. It's hard to write everything without sounding mad all the time. I'm really not an angry person, promise.
11-30-2017 10:39 AM
BudnHouston
Quote:
Originally Posted by dobebug View Post
Well, I've listened to a lot of breeders say a lot of things that weren't necessarily "true" and at least half the time it was because the breeder just plain wasn't all that knowledgable.

"This breeder is what I would call VERY knowledgeable. She's a AKC confirmation judge for Dobermans."

I've said before that every puppy (of any breed) was always intended be shown in conformation. And before I ever got my first Doberman I had a friend who had show dogs--and it was practically the first thing she said about getting a male--"Be sure they have both testicles and that they are fully descended..." It was years down the line before I ever heard a Dobe breeder say that they "could" drop as late as six months.

"Wish someone would have told me all that. Maybe Cryptorchidism is more common in Dobes than most of us think. "

And just once I got a puppy who came to me sight unseen (but I knew the breeder and parents and grandparents on both sides of the pedigree)--the breeder told me when he shipped the dog that he had both testicles (at 7-1/2 weeks) but that one was still yo-yoing.

It continued to do so--mostly down but occasionally up and at 5 months we (the breeder and I discussed this and decided I would send that puppy back and take a litter mate that the breeder had kept as a show prospect as well).

We did that and the breeder called me almost two months later to tell me that the original puppy (which he'd sold as a monorchid pet to a orchard farmer in Yakima) had (a week before he was scheduled to be neutered) dropped the second testicle and it seemed to be permanently down. Figures--he was definitely the better puppy of the two.

So, while it can happen--it's not terribly common.

"We're not giving up hope. The vet saying what she did a couple days ago discouraged us some."
Thanks for your help
11-30-2017 10:34 AM
MeadowCat
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dobiewankanobi View Post
I have to say this. I think, often times, we push ALL responsibility on a breeder. Sometimes this is true. There are breeders out there that play fast and loose with the truth. BUT, that is truly not the norm. If a buyer has a something that is non-negotiable, it's the buyer's responsibility to make that extra clear AND to verify that non-negotiable thing is not present in the puppy before any exchange of funds. For example, I have a buyer, and lord bless her because she owns another of mine and is a really great home, but she will ONLY consider a red male with a nose zipper. Non negotiable. And one day I hope that happens for her! But I certainly wouldn't try to swing a red male without a nose zipper under the radar to her. The same for you. If you do not want a dog with undescended testicles, then it's on you to make that clear and ensure that's not what you're taking home. IF you did that, then I would consider that breeder to potentially be shady.

Further, when someone tells me that showing isn't a priority or they MAY try it...well I'm not going to send them a really nice show prospect that may never set foot in the ring. Showing is to further a breeding program. The goal being that if they're of good quality, they will contribute back to the gene pool. As someone else mentioned, sometimes the puppy with one testicle WAS the pick of a litter but for obvious reasons can't be shown.

Do we know early? Yes. Fairly early. 7-8 weeks or so. After about 10 weeks, if I had one with an undescended testicle that's probably one I'm going to place in a pet home. I'm not going to hold out any hope that it will descend after that if it hasn't been up and down the whole time.
Wait a minute...does that mean I didn't ask for a super low key female that would just be lazy and want to do nothing? What kind of puppy did you send me???
11-30-2017 10:32 AM
BudnHouston
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rosemary View Post
While the breeder is correct in that they can sometimes still drop at a later age, if you were that concerned about it, why did you go ahead and take him?
I took him because the "professional" breeder told me that they could take up to 6 months to drop, and never mentioned any issues with his heredity.
11-29-2017 05:32 PM
Dobiewankanobi I have to say this. I think, often times, we push ALL responsibility on a breeder. Sometimes this is true. There are breeders out there that play fast and loose with the truth. BUT, that is truly not the norm. If a buyer has a something that is non-negotiable, it's the buyer's responsibility to make that extra clear AND to verify that non-negotiable thing is not present in the puppy before any exchange of funds. For example, I have a buyer, and lord bless her because she owns another of mine and is a really great home, but she will ONLY consider a red male with a nose zipper. Non negotiable. And one day I hope that happens for her! But I certainly wouldn't try to swing a red male without a nose zipper under the radar to her. The same for you. If you do not want a dog with undescended testicles, then it's on you to make that clear and ensure that's not what you're taking home. IF you did that, then I would consider that breeder to potentially be shady.

Further, when someone tells me that showing isn't a priority or they MAY try it...well I'm not going to send them a really nice show prospect that may never set foot in the ring. Showing is to further a breeding program. The goal being that if they're of good quality, they will contribute back to the gene pool. As someone else mentioned, sometimes the puppy with one testicle WAS the pick of a litter but for obvious reasons can't be shown.

Do we know early? Yes. Fairly early. 7-8 weeks or so. After about 10 weeks, if I had one with an undescended testicle that's probably one I'm going to place in a pet home. I'm not going to hold out any hope that it will descend after that if it hasn't been up and down the whole time.
11-29-2017 04:59 PM
dobebug Well, I've listened to a lot of breeders say a lot of things that weren't necessarily "true" and at least half the time it was because the breeder just plain wasn't all that knowledgable.

I've said before that every puppy (of any breed) was always intended be shown in conformation. And before I ever got my first Doberman I had a friend who had show dogs--and it was practically the first thing she said about getting a male--"Be sure they have both testicles and that they are fully descended..." It was years down the line before I ever heard a Dobe breeder say that they "could" drop as late as six months.

And just once I got a puppy who came to me sight unseen (but I knew the breeder and parents and grandparents on both sides of the pedigree)--the breeder told me when he shipped the dog that he had both testicles (at 7-1/2 weeks) but that one was still yo-yoing.

It continued to do so--mostly down but occasionally up and at 5 months we (the breeder and I discussed this and decided I would send that puppy back and take a litter mate that the breeder had kept as a show prospect as well).

We did that and the breeder called me almost two months later to tell me that the original puppy (which he'd sold as a monorchid pet to a orchard farmer in Yakima) had (a week before he was scheduled to be neutered) dropped the second testicle and it seemed to be permanently down. Figures--he was definitely the better puppy of the two.

So, while it can happen--it's not terribly common.
11-28-2017 03:56 PM
Rosemary While the breeder is correct in that they can sometimes still drop at a later age, if you were that concerned about it, why did you go ahead and take him?
11-28-2017 03:36 PM
BudnHouston
Quote:
Originally Posted by MeadowCat View Post
If you brought your boy home at 8 weeks, yes, of course the breeder should have let you know that both testicles weren't down, but it's also possible at that age that both will not be down. It is NOT predictable, necessarily, that a puppy will have only one testicle, even though it is "hereditary" as the condition isn't passed down simply from one dog to the next in the single expression of the condition. As in, it's not as if a male dog produces ONLY cryptorchid puppies - he may sire a litter with one bitch that has a male pup that is cryptorchid and a male pup that has normal testicles. He may sire a litter with another bitch that produces male pups where all of them have normal testicles. It's "genetic" in that it is certainly produced by a combination of genes between both the sire and dam, but it is not 100% predictable.

It's unfortunate your breeder didn't let you know that he had a chance that both testicles would not descend. In the grand scheme of things, since you don't (and never intended) to show him, it's really not a big deal (other than poor communication from your breeder, which may speak poorly of them). You can easily wait until he's mature to neuter him.
We brought him home at 9 weeks. Didn't really have much of a choice. I wanted to wait to 12 weeks, but see my other post for reason.

We didn't say we weren't going to show him. Just that we didn't have any current plans to. We were very adamant that we wanted a dog with both testicles. Cryptorchidism closes the door to any possibilities.

No, it's not the end of the world. Hopefully, he will still be a great dog, and we'll certainly love him, and train him to be the best dog possible. We'll wait until 18 months to neuter. We "probably" would have done that anyway. It's not the fact, it's the undercurrent of dishonesty. Why not say something? Why not be completely up front with a buyer? If we hadn't made such a big deal out of it with the breeder, it would be different. You guys all seem to know that if they haven't dropped by 7-8 weeks, there may be a problem. We picked up at 9 with zero testicles showing, asked, and were told it could take up to 6 months. Doesn't that sound like a lie to you?
11-28-2017 03:34 PM
MeadowCat What you have to realize is she may not have known that cryptorchidism was carried - it may be the combination of THAT sire and THAT bitch that produced it. Look, I'm not defending her - again, it sounds like you've had some poor communication and a lack of support after the purchase. What I AM saying is that you seem to believe she must have known that it was possible in this litter, and that just isn't the case. Should she have known that at 9 weeks that he may not end up with both testicles down? It sounds like it, at least from what experienced folks are saying. But I've certainly heard of puppies that had them drop later than 9 weeks.

It sounds like this breeder was not a good fit for you, and I'm sorry for that. I still don't think it's the end of the world, and I think you need to talk to some other vets if you were charged that much for a neuter, even given his cryptorchid state. My neuter with Richter didn't cost that much, and he had a retained testicle AND we did a gastropexy. There's no way, even in a higher cost state, that you should have that much of a cost difference when you factor in the gastropexy.
11-28-2017 03:22 PM
BudnHouston I guess I am mad, but only because we weren't made aware. We took our pup home at 9 weeks. I wanted to wait until 12 weeks, but the breeder was going on an extended business trip for 2+ weeks. She would have kept him, but all the other pups were being picked up. We didn't want to leave him there all alone. She did have a kennel employee to look after all her dogs, but the care level didn't make us comfortable, and we didn't know how much time he'd spend with his mother, and how much just being alone. I can easily say that at 9 weeks there was zero sign of either testicle, and we mentioned it. She told us that they could take up to 6 months to drop. Hey, we're not breeders. This was just our second Dobe. I think we were taken advantage of. We were very clear we didn't want to go through the worry and expense of another cryptorchid dog. I would have been alright with everything if we'd just been told that Cryptorchidism was present in the bloodline, and that it was possible with our pup. I liked the breeder. Nice lady. But her communication after the sale has been dismal. She still hasn't contacted us. Best we've gotten is a brief email saying she would contact us, but never did. That's kind of irritating. We're still fighting his tilted ear. Now, the one testicle. We love the little devil, but in all honestly, wouldn't have paid so much, or bought him at all had we known.
11-27-2017 05:44 PM
Kansadobe Normally I agree with just about everything Dobebug posts. This time I have to slightly disagree. Cryptorchidism does happen, but it is much more common in some lines than others. In the average litter, you can find both testicles in the scrotum by 6-7 weeks of age and always by the time they go home at 10 weeks or so if they are ever going to have them. Yes, on very rare occasions they may come down later. However, if this is important to you, you should have verified that the puppy had both testicles by the time you took him home.

Sorry for your situation, but live and learn.
11-27-2017 05:38 PM
Cressrb I have only dealt with breeders that were very up front with me. When first looking for a Doberman puppy, the litter we were interested in had 5 males in the litter. The one we picked had only one testicle descended at 7 wks, all other males had fully descended.
The breeder made us aware of that. She said when puppies go under anesthesia for ear cropping, she would have vet do a check for missing testicle. The prognosis wasn't good, and so we were given the option of another puppy.

Being a breeder many years of another breed, I would tell propective buyers that such
and such a puppy did not have fully descended testicles. I would give them the option of waiting until 12 wks to take the puppy or choosing another pup or buying with full knowledge of extra cost for surgery.

With your previous Doberman being a monorchid, did you not ask the breeder or check the dog yourself? Really sorry you have to go through it again. But it doesn't necessarily mean your boy will suffer from another malady.

Another reason these forums are so good.
11-27-2017 05:01 PM
dobebug
Quote:
Originally Posted by BudnHouston View Post
Vet visit today confirmed our fears. One testicle is all Jefe will ever have. 2nd still not anywhere in the canal, and at 4.5 months, not likely to ever be. Vet confirmed that this is completely hereditary, and after all the concern we expressed before buying, we should have been made aware that Cryptorchidism was a definite possibility. Kind of mad at this point. We did NOT want to deal with this again. Two Dobes, total of TWO testicles. Both from heavily championed bloodlines, and reputable breeders.
I know you didn't want to deal with cryptorchidism again--and I'm really sorry that you've ended up in a situation where you are having to deal with it now.

Reread MeadowCat's post. Being mad isn't going to help anything but cryptorchidism happens. In the best of lines to the best of breeders. Really, the only way of being absolutely positive of getting a male puppy with two testicles descended into the scrotum is to make sure there are two and in the scrotum before you take the puppy home.

I get all puppies as show prospects and I make sure that they all have both testicles before they go home with me. And I mostly take puppies home at eight weeks right after they have been cropped--and most of them have had both testicles descended by the time they were six or seven weeks old.

As far as the breeder being lax in not telling you that cryptorchidism was a "definite" possibility--I don't know--I'd probably have waited until after the breeder got back home from whatever was taking her away from home and caused you to take the puppy a couple of weeks before you intended to get him--or I'd have made it clear to the breeder that two testicles normally descended was a requirement--otherwise no sale.

Somehow I'm not sure that a breeder who has a prospective buyer "expressing concern" about a possibility of a monorchidism is the same as a buyer saying they don't want to take a puppy who doesn't have both testicles.

Even though I don't breed I've stood around with breeders while they talked about what the prospective buyer wanted. And I've actually also been there two or three years later when the buyer is back talking to the breeder about their huge disappointment in the puppy they got "because the breeder didn't tell them"...whatever it was they thought the breeder didn't tell them--guess what--most of the time the breeder did tell them and the buyer ignored it--because they wanted that puppy then and didn't want to wait.

So very good luck with Jefe--have you had a chance yet to discuss this with the breeder?
11-27-2017 03:31 PM
MeadowCat
Quote:
Originally Posted by BudnHouston View Post
Vet visit today confirmed our fears. One testicle is all Jefe will ever have. 2nd still not anywhere in the canal, and at 4.5 months, not likely to ever be. Vet confirmed that this is completely hereditary, and after all the concern we expressed before buying, we should have been made aware that Cryptorchidism was a definite possibility. Kind of mad at this point. We did NOT want to deal with this again. Two Dobes, total of TWO testicles. Both from heavily championed bloodlines, and reputable breeders.
If you brought your boy home at 8 weeks, yes, of course the breeder should have let you know that both testicles weren't down, but it's also possible at that age that both will not be down. It is NOT predictable, necessarily, that a puppy will have only one testicle, even though it is "hereditary" as the condition isn't passed down simply from one dog to the next in the single expression of the condition. As in, it's not as if a male dog produces ONLY cryptorchid puppies - he may sire a litter with one bitch that has a male pup that is cryptorchid and a male pup that has normal testicles. He may sire a litter with another bitch that produces male pups where all of them have normal testicles. It's "genetic" in that it is certainly produced by a combination of genes between both the sire and dam, but it is not 100% predictable.

It's unfortunate your breeder didn't let you know that he had a chance that both testicles would not descend. In the grand scheme of things, since you don't (and never intended) to show him, it's really not a big deal (other than poor communication from your breeder, which may speak poorly of them). You can easily wait until he's mature to neuter him.
11-27-2017 03:07 PM
BudnHouston Vet visit today confirmed our fears. One testicle is all Jefe will ever have. 2nd still not anywhere in the canal, and at 4.5 months, not likely to ever be. Vet confirmed that this is completely hereditary, and after all the concern we expressed before buying, we should have been made aware that Cryptorchidism was a definite possibility. Kind of mad at this point. We did NOT want to deal with this again. Two Dobes, total of TWO testicles. Both from heavily championed bloodlines, and reputable breeders.
11-13-2017 10:05 AM
LadyDi Amen.....LOL
11-13-2017 07:58 AM
melbrod Never quite thought Id say this but...Yay!! Im so glad your boy has both in their proper place.
11-13-2017 07:23 AM
RADAR2017 Update, all "grapes" are accounted for
11-12-2017 09:16 AM
MeadowCat Just going to quickly pop in. Richter has one undescended testicle. We were aware when we got him (it's actually the only reason we have him - Mary had retained him to show him, but that pesky testicle never came down...lucky for me!). We waited until he was about two years old to neuter him. I elected to have a preventative gastropexy done at the same time as the neuter, because of the invasiveness of the surgery, and it still didn't cost me $1500. It was a high cost, but not $1500.

I second dobebug's advice...if you have an appointment coming up at the vet (maybe a rabies vaccine or another booster or something), just have the vet do a quick check. If one is not descended, you can have a discussion with a good vet about the appropriate time table for neutering. My vet is a wonderful breeder of Aussies, so we had a good discussion about the risks and benefits of how long to wait with Richter, and both felt good about waiting until age 2.
11-11-2017 05:24 PM
dobebug
Quote:
Originally Posted by BudnHouston View Post
. We're not going to be happy if we have to shell out the rather ridiculous vet bill to do the more complicated neutering. Last time we paid around $1300. Again, vets have gotten out of control with their pricing in Houston. I'm not giving up on the second one dropping. Lots believe they can still drop, and i'm not sure both haven't already. I'll probably take him to the vet next week. See what they have to say. . All that said, if a pup that you pay a lot of money for isn't perfect, then some percentage of that money should be refunded, IMO. I'd say at least half. If this pup doesn't drop both, then we have paid a lot of money for a total of 2 testicles.
Bud,

I'll make a couple of suggestions here--if you do end up with a monorchid puppy (only one testicle descended)--find out from the vet what they charge for a spay--remember in part charges depend on weight when it comes to anesthesia so make them figure an estimate based on your male puppies weight but the cost should not exceed that of a spay. Do you know what the vWD status is of your puppy? Sometimes vets are so freaked out about the possibility of an affected puppy they add in a whole bunch of charges for blood products that might be necessary IF the puppy is affected but if the puppy is clear or a carrier this isn't a necessary consideration. If the vet insists on having various blood products on hand, in case of bleeding and your puppy is NOT affected--find a different vet to do the surgery.

Puppies aren't perfect--even male puppies with two testicles aren't perfect so I don't know if I'd phrase it quite that way when talking to the breeder.

While many breeders will refund money (enough to cover the additional charges for a retained testicle neuter) it probably wouldn't amount to half of the sale price.

At least one breeder I know used to do that. That particular breeder had an owner whose vet charged $1,500 for a retained testicle neuter (and this was over 10 years ago)--that vet ordered and charged for a whole array of products used to mitigate or prevent bleeds in clinical affected Dobermans--this particular puppy was clear. Since then the breeder tells the owner that they can have the dog neutered where ever but that if they bring the puppy back to her she'll have her vet neuter him at no charge to them. And she offers them a refund equal to the cost of the neuter if her vet does it.

But you should definitely get the puppy in to his vet and have him checked to see if he actually has both testicles descended (in which case you can stop worrying) or if the vet can find and manipulate the testicle into the scrotum. Exactly where the undescended testicle is (sometimes they are out of the abdomen and just barely above the scrotum and sometimes they are buried somewhere up in the abdomen)makes a lot of difference in how complicated and how long the surgery might take and how much it would cost.
11-11-2017 12:16 AM
Cressrb Really most breeders know their stock and if testicle had not dropped prior to him
leaving they would give you the option of waiting or a vet visit with manipulation or
ultrasound to see where the missing testicle was or was not, or state in the contract
a refund or partial payment for the extra cost of that kind of surgery. At least that
has been my experience.
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