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  Topic Review (Newest First)
12-04-2018 11:37 PM
4x4bike ped Hi Five...

This is a 2 year old thread.

First: Congratulations on your Doberman's accomplishment.

Second: Why not start a new thread introducing yourself and your dog?

John
Portland OR
12-04-2018 04:02 PM
FiveAM Can anyone tell me if there has been an uncropped doberman finish a Canadian Grand Champion title...before mine did last summer.

Thank you
09-02-2016 07:01 PM
dobebug
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gretchen_Red View Post
Jack was an import from England (I believe that's where he's from but don't quote me),
Yes, Jack (Findjan's Outrage) was an English import--and you can quote me.

Quote:
I'm not going to lie I personally don't like to see uncropped dogs get a CH. and I wish they would make it a disqualifying fault. I believe if Nancy knew then what she knows today she probably wouldn't have done it on the off chance she could lose her rights to crop and dock future dogs. Just my opinion she's never come out and said that.
Well G-R the possiblity of the AKC allowing any standard to be opened and rewritten to make something like uncropped ears a disqualification is slim to none Other breeds have approached the subject and the Doberman Standard Committee has raised the question (sort of...not directly but via back doors so to speak). AKC has made it very clear that they will not allow for a standard which disqualifies a dog for a natural part of it's anatomy.

In all probability the AKC would insist on a rewrite of the Doberman standard if the club opened the standard (as has been suggested) to clarify that sentence that reads "Ears normally cropped" That came up a few years back when DPCA was about to open the standard to change some things--it did not sit well with the membership and the changes were not approved and the standard was not opened. But later it became apparant from what the AKC had done with other cropped breeds who opened the standard to make changs that they also had to include a disciption of an uncropped ears if the standard did not already do this.

The changes in attitude about cropping were already in the wind when Nancy imported Jack--England had never allowed cropping, Scandanavia didn't allow cropping but did allow cropped imports to be shown. Most of Australia did not allow cropping but at least one of the states did (and no longer does). Germany was soon to change its standard so that cropped dogs couldn't be shown in Germany. You should ask her if she would choose to show and finish an uncropped dog again. That first and for some time only uncropped AKC champion did not create the begining of the no crop movement in this country. In the 1960's there were people who thought that cropping puppies was just awful. I definitly know--talked to (or got screamed at by) a whole lot of them over the years

I have never had anything except cropped dogs (and docked dogs and dogs whose dew-claws were removed). And that's what I would always choose to have BUT--I personally don't think natural ears or an undocked tail make a Doberman any less of a Dobeman. So if my best friend or the guy down the street wants to have an uncropped dog--it's fine with me. And if they want to show them in the conformation ring against my cropped dogs--thats OK with me too--and if their dogs are better than mine--they should win.

The standard, as it was when I brought home my first Dobe had a description of both the cropped and uncropped ear--as shocking as that may be.

I'm for choice! So I think (as Rosemary does) that the UKC policy is perfectly reasonable and I suspect that it's not far from what the AKC will ultimately make their policy as well.

In the meantime AKC isn't going to approve any standard with an out and out DQ for uncropped ears and the DPCA isn't going to try to buck that by opening the standard to try to make a DQ for uncropped ears.
09-02-2016 12:17 PM
Rosemary While I, on the other hand, much prefer the UKC's policy:

"The docking of tails and cropping of ears in America is legal and remains a personal choice. However, as an international registry, the United Kennel Club, Inc. is aware that the practices of cropping and docking have been forbidden in some countries. In light of these developments, the United Kennel Club feels that no dog in any UKC event, including conformation, shall be penalized for a full tail or natural ears."
09-02-2016 09:32 AM
Gretchen_Red Some of you may know that I'm pretty good friends with Nancy. In fact, she's one my mentors and will be going to the 2016 nationals with me to help me look at males (and have fun of course). I love to hear her tell the story of Jack because it's so different than what we think today.

Jack was an import from England (I believe that's where he's from but don't quote me), he was left uncropped because I think time just slipped away. It wasn't a big deal at the time that he wasn't cropped. But Nancy thought it would be fun and challenging to try to CH. Jack. He finished with 3 majors, one as a puppy. I have seen pictures of him and he was a VERY nice dog. Although she thought it was a challenge it wasn't viewed upon as it is today because there was never a worry about losing the right to crop and dock.

I'm not going to lie I personally don't like to see uncropped dogs get a CH. and I wish they would make it a disqualifying fault. I believe if Nancy knew then what she knows today she probably wouldn't have done it on the off chance she could lose her rights to crop and dock future dogs. Just my opinion she's never come out and said that.
09-02-2016 09:04 AM
dobebug LOL!! Well, my first Dobe had a nearly military crop--and that happened because the owner of his dam gave me two names of vets who could do good Doberman crops (and people wonder why we suggest that the better breeder KNOW who really does good Dobe crops and crop the puppies before they leave the breeders home). She should have remembered that the actual breeder of the litter (who had leased the bitch) intended for everyone who took a puppy was to bring them back to be taken to THE vet who did all the good show crops for years and years in western Washington.

She didn't tell me that part of it so I took the puppy to the other vet (and it was true that he cropped a lot of dogs and was THE vet to take small terriers to--and his specailty was Miniature Schnauzers--at that time the preferred crop for them was very short with a lot of bell).

Later my own regular vet (who cropped most of the Great Danes intended for show and who was 5 minutes from home) redid the crop, cleaned up the base and bell but length was nothing that could be corrected...one bad crop that was, among other things, much too short meant that I have, ever since, wanted LONG crops.

I don't make the same mistake twice...

That original crop wasn't exactly a hack job--for that time it was a perfect crop but for the wrong breed.
09-01-2016 08:57 PM
4x4bike ped More bell! Less length!!!!

It took me years to get used to the uber long skinny ears. Honestly, I still prefer a shorter crop as long as it is artistically done and not a hack job.

John
Portland OR
09-01-2016 06:59 PM
dobebug
Quote:
Originally Posted by MaryAndDobes View Post
I hate to disagree with Bug on almost anything! However, there are more CKC uncropped champions - it's not as difficult as the AKC for sure. One that comes to mind right away is a red male from Gatehouse named Archie - his owner used to post here. Another is out west and came from Australia? I think Mariah Dupuy imported her? I don't know if anyone is really keeping count here in Canada since it's not as huge a deal here as in the states. There was a Fabert bitch that was pointed in the states so I sort of wonder if she may have been a Canadian champion but I don't know. Anyway, those ones I thought of right away but it wasn't something I've really taken notes on.
That was bad writing on my part. Although I haven't kept track of the uncropped Canadian champions I knew there were a fair number (more than the 6 AKC uncropped champions--that's for sure).

I thought that there was a Walamara bred uncropped (don't know for sure and don't know if it was a bitch or a dog) Dobe, imported, who became a Canadian champion--maybe 15 or 20 years ago.

As far as I know no one is keeping track of uncropped Canadian champions--you guys are more rational about the whole uncropped vs cropped business as far as I'm concerned so it definitely isn't as big a deal.

I started showing Dobes before fawn was an allowed color for AKC (that was the October 14, 1969 standard) and that standard still descibed an uncropped ear and the one following it that added the line about "Ears normally cropped and carried erect".--that was the 1982 revision I think. The wording was stupid and I know that the committee argued endlessly about each and every word because that was also the standard that added a DQ for "Dogs not of an allowed color." to make sure that the albino's could not be shown in conformation.

Peggy Adamson who was part of the committee that developed the changes in that particular standard explained in detail several times that "Ears normally cropped..." meant ears cropped in a conventional fashion NOT ears usually cropped. The increasingly longer ears that had been showing up on the west coast for some time did not please the members of that particular standard committee and they wanted them to be cropped as they had been which was with more bell and a shorter length.

And people have been arguing the point ever since--dispite what Peggy Adamson said about the intent.
09-01-2016 02:44 PM
Darkevs A breeder in my area, from years ago, Carmen Haller, Carvon Doberman finished a couple of natural eared CKC Champions. Cannot remember how many.

On page 389 in the book The World of Doberman Pinschers is some info on Carvon Dobes. In it Carmen says she thinks her first Dobe ch lady's jaguar cd was the first natural eared Dobe to gain a ckc ch. it was in 1975.
09-01-2016 01:07 PM
MaryAndDobes I hate to disagree with Bug on almost anything! However, there are more CKC uncropped champions - it's not as difficult as the AKC for sure. One that comes to mind right away is a red male from Gatehouse named Archie - his owner used to post here. Another is out west and came from Australia? I think Mariah Dupuy imported her? I don't know if anyone is really keeping count here in Canada since it's not as huge a deal here as in the states. There was a Fabert bitch that was pointed in the states so I sort of wonder if she may have been a Canadian champion but I don't know. Anyway, those ones I thought of right away but it wasn't something I've really taken notes on.
09-01-2016 11:00 AM
dobebug OK, here's the promised update on the uncropped champions. There are 5 uncropped AKC bred North American champions. 4 of the five were bred by Kathy Davieds DVM. Three are AKC champions as listed earlier in this thread (Guess, Saga and Inteus) and the fourth is a Canadian Champion, Can Ch Jeseran's Good Witch of the North (and it's evey bit as hard to finish an uncropped Doberma in Canada as it is in the AKC ring, even though the Canadian standard not only allows for uncropped but specifically describes the uncropped ear. Ella (Good Witch of the North) not only finished in Canada but did so by taking a Group 2 and defeating the top winning Boxer in Canada.

So there are 7 North American uncropped champions, 6 AKC champions and one Canadian KC champion. Two of the dogs, Jack and Tyler were imports and of the remainder 1 was bred by Heidi Sowards (that was Sage--the DobeQuest information is incorrect and I'll change it as soon as DQ is available--it's down right now) and the 4 remaining are all Jeseran dogs.
08-30-2016 12:53 PM
Fitzmar Dobermans chiming in on dewclaws and docks - We had a rescued racing Greyhound in the 90's.... with dew claws. His tail was like a whip, and he injured it twice - we are lucky that we got it to heal, but it was a MESS - yuk, blood everywhere! He also ripped a dewclaw! So, I'd be ok with natural ears, but prefer a docked tail and no dew claws - haha. I've had a natural earred Doberman that never had a ear infection, and a cropped Doberman that had a nasty hematoma in her ear.

My personal opinion is that we are fighting a losing battle on ear cropping in this country - and it pains me to say that. However, even my vet that is against cropping hopes that we never lose the right to dock - he has had to amputate way too many tails on adults due to injuries that won't heal.
08-30-2016 12:32 PM
dobebug
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rosemary View Post
I've never had a dog without them, so wouldn't bother me a bit. Well, maybe the Cocker Spaniel we had when I was really, really young? I seem to recall her tail being docked, but if so, she was the only one.

Jeseran is definitely on my list of possible future breeders.
Dew claws and tails--Gee, the dogs in my childhood were both mutts from the Seattle dog pound (can't help it--that's what it was called back in the day) both were vaguely sporting dog mixtures and had dew claws, natural ears and tails. Then my parent acquired a few Boxers--the two they had when I still lived at home were both cropped and docked; the first had dew claws (and tore them several times and finally needed to have one removed). The other, a failed show dog, had no dew claws.

That was the point when I got my first Doberman--all of the Dobes were cropped, docked and had dew claws removed. The Afghan Hound I had in the late 1960's did not have dew claws (and was as neat as a cat about where his tail was-didn't bang it into things and didn't dust stuff off coffee tables with it) and the Aussie from the mid 1990's was docked and de-dewclawed.

So, in most of my life I've never had dogs with dew claws
08-30-2016 10:36 AM
dobebug Ooops--over the weekend I read a post elsewhere by Kathy Davieds DVM (Jeseran--the breeder of the Dobes I listed as 4,5 and 6) on the uncropped champion list--she said that the last 4 uncropped champions were her breeding. So somewhere along the line I've missed one.

I have a query out now about the identity of the missing Jeseran champion (and what's worse I have a vague memory of a post about a year ago regarding another Jeseran dog finishing--I must have totally spaced it out at the time). I'll post the results here as soon as I find out for sure.
08-29-2016 02:20 PM
Rosemary
Quote:
Originally Posted by 4x4bike ped View Post
Yeah... I have never had a un-cropped Doberman. Or Boxer for that matter. But if one was available from a great breeder and met my criteria, having a dog with natural ears would be fine with me.

On the other hand, I'm not ready to deal with natural tails or dew claws.....

John
Portland OR
I've never had a dog without them, so wouldn't bother me a bit. Well, maybe the Cocker Spaniel we had when I was really, really young? I seem to recall her tail being docked, but if so, she was the only one.

Jeseran is definitely on my list of possible future breeders.
08-29-2016 01:52 PM
4x4bike ped Yeah... I have never had a un-cropped Doberman. Or Boxer for that matter. But if one was available from a great breeder and met my criteria, having a dog with natural ears would be fine with me.

On the other hand, I'm not ready to deal with natural tails or dew claws.....

John
Portland OR
08-29-2016 01:22 PM
Fitzmar Dobermans Kathy breeds a lovely Doberman - and their ears are generally exactly what an uncropped ear should look like.
I've bred 3 litters and never left a puppy uncropped, but don't have a problem with it, and think that in the future we will see more of it like you do in Boxers and Danes.
08-28-2016 05:52 PM
SilasPup What a gorgeous boy. Huge props to Kathy; she must be so proud of him. Thanks for the update, dobebug.
08-27-2016 07:44 PM
Darkevs Congratulations to the new AKC Ch. Jeseran's Native Son!

I just realized that I have never checked out the foundation of Jeseran, going to have to do it.

Really like her Dobes.
08-27-2016 01:41 PM
MeadowCat Iceman, the only public picture I know of is his ad in Doberman Digest - go to page 42 of this issue: The Doberman Digest - November December 2015. I know ads aren't always the best photo of a dog, but it's something, at least!
08-27-2016 12:57 PM
iceman I Congratulate the breeder for breeding a correct, champion dog..

I also admire her courage to compete in a country where cropped/docked is preferred by majority.

And a word of praise for the judges who evaluated the dog for his conformation, not his ears.

A structurally correct natural dog is as beautiful as a cropped dog..


any chance of someone posting a photo of this champion dog?
















.
08-27-2016 06:51 AM
dax0402 Congratulations!
08-26-2016 05:15 PM
eegreen Congrats to all!
08-26-2016 04:06 PM
sandy2233 Good job!
08-26-2016 03:24 PM
Amelia_ Congratulations!
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