|Topic Review (Newest First)|
|12-24-2015 01:47 PM|
Family Dobes Breeding Bitches Every Heat
Yes, indeed they do breed them every heat. Here is a video of a spreadsheet I created from information from the Family Dobes website. I have screenshots to back it up and you can find them in an album on Facebook
Here is a video that really gives you the full reality of his breeding practices
|11-19-2015 11:07 AM|
10/2015 Update FamilyDobes
Family Dobes, has a lot of reviews here and I almost supported his high end BYB. I say BYB because he is a full time breeder and appears to breed a Dam every cycle.
The dogs do appear to be of quality but when I dealt with him briefly and found out what his costs were for Nothing but the dog and his "Air Guarantee", I passed on a adorable puppy, that was too late by the way for the ears to be docked and came with no evidence of testing or vaccinations, just his word . . In addition most of the other reputable breeders for the price of $1500 -$3000 care for the pup, do all the ear/tail docking, all the eye/heart/hips tests and thats what you are getting from your professional breeder. I would encourage anyone to be patient, do your homework for this kind of price and dedication, and try to support reputable breeders.
|04-27-2015 03:11 PM|
Retired Breeding Bitch from Family Dobes
For anyone who may still be following this, I have a retired bitch from Family Dobes and here is her story...I'm one of the few people who has seen what is coming out the "back door" of his kennel:
Soraya, mother of my dog Luna, arrived at Ft. Myers airport on March 27, 2014 from Utah where she was one of the most prolific breeding bitches for Family Dobes, having produced 6 litters (and about 40 puppies) for the kennel in 4 ½ years. But this isn’t where her story begins.
Soraya was born in Serbia on May 23, 2007 at Betelges Kennel. Many European Doberman champions have come from this kennel including Soraya’s grandfather, Baron Nike Renewal. Nike was an IDC (International Doberman Club) winner in 1998. One of Nike’s sons, Fedor del Nasi went on to also win the IDC in 2003. That title is to the European Doberman community what the Westminister Best of Show title is to the US. To my knowledge, Nike and Fedor are the only father and son who have won the IDC title. So Soraya’s pedigree is a desirable one. Most of her littermates went on to win European titles, but I suspect they didn’t show Soraya because of her pink lower lips (considered undesirable in Europe) and sold her to a pet home only to have her returned at some point to Betelges Kennel. She was then sold at 2 years old, pregnant, to Family Dobes, then operating in AZ. Then her sad life as a breeder began.
I had seen an email in mid March of 2014, right after she gave birth to her last litter on March 9th, announcing her retirement and that she was available to the right home. When I inquired about her price (how much could a nearly 7 year old, former breeder cost?), Steve Parsons responded that for me “she was free, but for anyone else, much more.” So, we began preparations for the addition of the red Doberman I had always wanted. Steve called a week later asking if we were ready for her, which we were. Her last litter was not thriving and several pups had died. The last three were now being bottle-fed; he wanted to ship her.
We were waiting at the airport when she arrived at the cargo department. They had her 500 series airline crate on a cart (a rather small crate for shipment of an adult Doberman). When they wheeled her out and I saw her, it was love at first sight. I had always liked the breeder and had a lot of respect for him…until Soraya tried to step out of her crate. I opened the door and expected her to jump down and out of the crate so I could take her to go potty. However, we had to lift her. She was limping very badly and even had trouble walking. I was absolutely speechless. I had gotten my two other dogs from Steve (Karma and Luna) and couldn’t believe what I was seeing. Her condition was poor to say the least. Our bond was immediate and deep. I kept looking in the rear view mirror where my mother sat with Soraya, cuddled up next to her. Soraya was filthy dirty and had on a navy blue collar that I had seen in the videos when Luna was a nursing puppy…4 years earlier. The collar looked the same as Soraya; as if it had never been washed. (It took two separate baths to get all the dirt off her and the collar went in the garbage. I then gave her a “pretty” one). Once I saw Soraya, I felt like a fool for believing that Family Dobes was a quality, ethical breeder. And then I felt even worse because I had supported this kennel by purchasing both of my dogs from him.
Once home, we quickly discovered why she was in so much pain when she walked; Steve had cut her nails to within ½ inch of the pads of her toes! He had told me a couple days earlier that he “trimmed” her nails and clipped one too close so her foot was tender. He later changed his story to state that they were cut while she was out for her c section. All 16 toenails had been trimmed so far back that there was no way she couldn’t have been crying in pain during the trim. I have to wonder how many times he did this to her. Luckily, I had some Tramadol (pain killers) left from Karma’s spay. I gave her some as soon as she finished her dinner. It helped.
Soraya had been eating Purina Pro-Plan at the kennel, hardly a sufficient diet for a dog producing many puppies. Soraya had muscle deterioration and looked “used up.” My vet was shocked when she went in for her check up the day after she arrived. Her condition was so bad that he asked me if I really wanted to keep her because it was going to be a long road to getting her healthy again. Anyone who knows me knows that answer. During her check up (she weighed 74 lbs. but she now weighs 84.4 lbs. on 4/13/15-her ideal, healthy weight), the vet informed me that she was dehydrated (suggested I give her subcutaneous fluids at home), had broken/severely worn down teeth, mammary tumors, suspected possible Lupus (although very rare in Dobermans, but her feet were so swollen and pads severely cracked), had two growths on the pressure points on her hips from not having any bedding (her breeder told me she tore up her blankets so she only had a rubber mat in her crate) and the growths should be removed. She had bloody discharge from her pregnancy that, when examined under a scope, revealed a lot of bacteria. My vet said to watch for signs of pyometra because a lot of bacteria were present. She had to be on antibiotics for at least a week and needed to be healthier before she could safely undergo the extensive surgery of spay and mammary removal.
So we began the long journey to restoring Soraya back to health. Her records from Utah indicated that she had 3 prior cesarean sections, a total of 6 litters and 1 miscarriage. She received vet care only when she was pregnant or needed a c-section. No check ups. No holter tests, EKG’s or electrocardiograms. All things every ethical breeder who is trying to produce quality puppies should perform annually on their breeding dogs. No hip certification produced for Soraya. But the breeder insists his dogs are health tested. I’m uncertain what he considers “health tested.” Her last c-section was on March 9th, just a couple weeks before she was shipped. I didn’t know this until I received her vet records a couple weeks later and saw her sad medical history.
We switched Soraya to Blue Buffalo Wilderness (a grain free, high protein kibble) and cooked chicken, some hamburger and roast beef to add to the top of her food for the next month. One day I was excited to see a roast in the crockpot and asked my mother if that was for tonight’s dinner. She replied that no, it was for Soraya and not to touch it! Her “Grandma” was giving her the royal treatment she had always deserved. Three weeks later, the vet felt she was barely healthy enough to undergo surgery and it couldn’t be delayed any longer.
On surgery day, I received a call after dropping her off at the vet. No surgery today. He heard many arrhythmias and her EKG indicated a problem. The vet suggested that she have her heart checked by a specialist. I picked her up, crying because I knew this meant DCM (Dilated Cardio Myopathy). The specialist did an electrocardiogram and an echocardiogram. The specialist heard no arrhythmias and saw no signs of DCM. Great news. But an immediate spay and mammary removal of two mammary glands were strongly advised.
The following day Soraya had surgery. It took the vet 30 minutes to stabilize her heart so he could begin surgery after anesthesia was administered. During surgery, it was discovered that she had gone into a pyometra, making surgery more difficult. During her last c section, the Utah vet had cut one of her tubes to remove mummified puppies (as indicated in her Utah vet records). The incision in the tube had perforated and was leaking infection into her abdomen. My vet said another 24 hours and she would have been in serious trouble. He also said her reproductive organs were a “mess.” We were able to get her spayed just in time. However, time permitted the removal of just one mammary and the largest of the growths on her hips. In post op, Soraya began to hemorrhage badly. The vet had to intubate and open her up again. The source of the bleeding couldn’t be found but it had stopped. The vet recommended that she be taken to the 24 hour hospital where she could be monitored over night. She spent two nights there with the fantastic team of doctors and nurses at Florida Veterinary Care and Referral Center. Biopsy results on her mammary tumors and growth revealed no cancer. YAY! Soraya healed nicely and really began to blossom into the energetic Doberman she should always have been.
I planned to keep her airline crate for emergencies (like evacuation during a hurricane), but when I scrubbed it, the dirt was so embedded in the plastic that I couldn’t get it all out. The odor wouldn’t go away no matter how much soap I used. I couldn’t understand how it could have gotten so dirty when it was supposedly only used to ship dogs. It also had her name on the top. I found that strange. Until I read the following post on the Doberman Talk forum:
“Family Dobes in Payson Utah owned by Steve Parsons
So I worked for Steve for 42 hours before quitting because his puppies are all suffering from giardia, his kennel has had parvo and k9 herpes and his adult dogs are kept in travel crates, and he does not properly care for the animals. He refused to pay me because my 40 hours were all training hours (not even) n he was only going to pay me for 2 HOURS OF WORK AFTER WORKING 42!!! So I'm calling labor commission, and letting people know he breeds ill tempered, and over bred dogs who produce sickly puppies some of which have had eye problem Where they have to be put down because their eyes die n rot out, stomach problems n other health issues. He treats his workers like dirt and pays under the table to avoid paying any employees benefits or have to claim the taxes. Poor breeding for both him and his dogs.”
Suddenly it made sense why Soraya’s airline crate wouldn’t come clean. It’s because she LIVED in it! Apparently, whenever she wasn’t being bred, having puppies, or going outside to go potty, she was in this very small crate. This would explain why her rear legs aren’t straight like they were in the picture when she was two years old in Serbia and her rear leg muscles weren’t as strong as they should have been. If you’ve ever seen Fedor del Nasi or his offspring, one trait that is consistent is the muscle and power in the rear legs. Soraya is built just like her father, yet her muscles had deteriorated. Very sad for this once extremely powerful girl.
Once Soraya was healed, I ordered an electronic collar for her as I use them for training purposes and she had a few unwanted behaviors we needed to correct (counter surfing, excessive barking, pulling the fabric on her dog bed). When the trainer fit her with the collar and began to work with her, Soraya responded in a way that my other two did not; at a very low stimulation level (this feels like a tickle or irritation at a low level. I’ve tried it on myself.), she became very fearful. With gentle encouragement and coaxing, Soraya responded well but still was fearful and reactive when the collar was used even on a low stimulation level. Within a minute, my trainer turned and walked back to me with Soraya and said that she had already had improper training on an electronic collar; either at very high levels for training (this is incorrect use) or had had a bark collar turned up high. Given that she is a barker, I suspect that she wore a bark collar while at the kennel, being shocked severely every time she barked or another dog barked and set off the collar. Although the breeder will swear that he doesn’t condone the use of electronic collars, he certainly has a few horror stories of dogs he used them on with bad results.
There were some additional behaviors that were surprising to me. If you move your hand quickly near her face, she flinched in a startled way and backed away quickly or ran off. I sometimes will put a leg in front of my other dogs to keep them from running outside when I don’t want them to do so. When I did this with Soraya, it was the same response as with the hand near her face only worse. She was afraid if you lifted your leg or touched her with your foot. It made her very fearful. I’ll let you draw your own conclusions as to what caused this reaction in her. My other two do not respond this way at all.
After Soraya arrived, I exchanged a few emails with her breeder and he knows exactly where I stand on the issue of her treatment while in his care. To this day, I have never seen a video of his entire kennel, which consists of a single-wide trailer. Only videos of the area where the puppies are being nursed. NEVER the entire interior of the kennel. According to his website, he has about 11 adult dogs living in the trailer, mostly females who probably don’t get along with each other very well. So, in my opinion, it gives validation to what the employee said about all the dogs living in airline crates. How else could you house 11 adult dogs plus have room for nursing mothers and their puppies in a single wide trailer? The breeder said that kennel dogs shouldn’t be expected to have the pampered life that Karma and Luna have had. Oh really? Why not? Other breeders pamper their breeding dogs.
Soraya is now very healthy, except for the fact that she has been diagnosed with occult (meaning hidden) Dilated Cardio Myopathy. It’s hereditary so there is a great chance she has passed it onto her puppies. She has had another electrocardiogram, echocardiogram, 2 holter tests (which is where they found the DCM) and countless EKGs. She still needs another surgery and, although on anti arrhythmic drugs, it’s still risky. The other mammary needs to be removed due to tumors and she has teeth that need to be pulled along with a dental cleaning because her teeth are SO bad. Her grandmother and father, Fedor del Nasi, both died suddenly and it is documented that her grandmother died of DCM. Fedor’s owner/breeder never announced his cause of death, so I have to assume it was DCM. Soraya’s cardiologist said that when a Doberman dies suddenly, it’s DCM unless it is confirmed by a veterinarian via necropsy that the cause of death was otherwise. Period. She informed me that 70% of Dobermans have or will have DCM. But with all that she knows about the heart problems in Dobermans, she would still have one in a heartbeat because the breed is just that spectacular.
Soraya is by far the most affectionate dog I’ve ever had. She loves to cuddle and be very close to her family. Since her arrival, she has learned to play (taught by Karma) and doesn’t have to worry about getting into dogs fights any longer (many scars from fights at the kennel). She is just the happiest dog I’ve ever seen. Her temperament is very stable and her protective instincts run deep and true. She has had some bite work training and enjoys any additional training that I give to her. She even plays tug with her bratty kid, Luna.
It just breaks my heart that while at the kennel, Soraya gave so much and received so little in return. But she isn’t the only one. Karma’s mother, Coco (Baracuda Liborium) wasn’t as fortunate as Soraya; the breeder told me that he euthanized her because she had a pyometra and semi-torn ACL. Both are operable. But Coco was 8 years old and no longer able to give the kennel puppies, so maybe he considered her need for surgery just money wasted. It’s especially sad because Coco was his top producer, producing 8 litters during her lifetime there. Karma looks nearly identical to her mother, Coco. Every time someone likes Family Dobes facebook business page, Simply The Best European Dobermans, or likes or shares one of his pictures, or buys a dog from him, they are supporting and promoting the abuse and neglect of a sweet dog like Soraya. Despite the enormous investment in time and money to restore her to health, I am SO glad she has become a part of our family. She has given much more than she has taken. She is my heart dog. ☺
|06-09-2014 05:53 PM|
Originally Posted by bluedog7 View Post
|06-09-2014 05:41 PM|
Originally Posted by SieYa View Post
who am I accusing???? and what exactly am I empty on? If you really need a name that bad PM me- I dont like bad mouthing people online.
|06-09-2014 05:40 PM|
|charlie845||What Im trying to say is it does not matter if its in the contract or not - and too many people just recommend someone without really knowing them - people just parrot eachother without any real experience on someone.|
|06-09-2014 05:34 PM|
|SieYa||You're always sooooooo full of accusations... Empty on the roof of your crap.|
|06-09-2014 05:33 PM|
|charlie845||What Im saying is weather its in a contract or not it does not always happen that way - and too many people just parrot one another saying to get a puppy from someone because they are considered "reputable" and thats not always the case.|
|06-09-2014 05:24 PM|
Originally Posted by charlie845 View Post
|06-09-2014 05:14 PM|
Originally Posted by pdubois64 View Post
Not everyone is good enough to honor a contract and a breeder would not even know if people still had the dog or if it was given to a shelter or sold.
Thats a very nice thought but its really so far from the truth - again another reason why people should not just all be thrown into the same group, good or bad, they should be evaluated person by person and only people with actual experience should talk about them.
|06-09-2014 05:07 PM|
Originally Posted by charlie845 View Post
BYB's on the other hand want nothing to do with anything they produce ever again after the cheque clears.
|06-09-2014 05:01 PM|
I was/am not in any way condoning someone who breeds sick dogs and does not take care of them, my comment was directed to you because your post came across nasty (maybe it was not meant that way) to someone else was just saying something they happen to see, they also were not saying anyone should buy a dog from this breeder. |
It does drive me crazy though that any breeder that does not do everything people on here think they should they get thrown in the same group as people who just really dont care and breed sick dogs. It also seems to me a lot of people rescue on here, thats GREAT however who knows what that dog went through before you got them or what kind of a breeder they came from - everyone assumes its a BYB it could very easily be a poor quality dog that came from a "good breeder"
I have had a number of people that have messaged me or people I know before I even joined this site and either dont comment or left this forum because of that kind of behavior.
I understand your passionate but there are ways to go about it
|06-08-2014 11:36 PM|
Thank you for sharing RFR. I can only imagine how hard it is to be involved in a municipal situation. I've taken dogs from such situations and have worked for DRU to transport and do home evaluations but don't think I could witness what I know happens at shelters.s I think that I would have the capacity for violence towards the people who dump the dogs there. |
I just don't/can't understand how and why anyone could ignore the results of irresponsible breeding, let alone defending and promoting them.
I have had two rescue boys. One was probably well bred and dumped at North Shore because the breeder made his money on a 14 puppy litter and the other was was a byb dog with horrible conformation and the best true Doberman temperament. They both died too soon.
|06-08-2014 11:11 PM|
I've got a lot of sad stuff going on with a hot mess of a municipal kill shelter here right now, too, lots of hard decisions and tough things to walk away from. Sigh.
And yes, I have nearly reached the point where I just don't care to know about, or converse with, folks who are just so....below even a starting point, in dog knowledge.
But, as you yourself mentioned, I think of lurkers.
I've often had folks write privately, sometimes years later, and speak about things on DT that helped them, angered them even, but ended up being life-changing and dog-relationship-changing, for them, so...a gal can dream.
|06-08-2014 10:49 PM|
|churchill||I hope you are right but I don't understand why she keeps getting behind people who accept bad greeders. My energy is tapped out. My good friend Chris Dewey (You might know her as an agility judge) lost her Pointer MACH4 Skeets a few days ago and my other good friend Mary Briant who has two TT Agility dogs lost her boy Gunny recently. My other BBF Carol Witt lost Spirit recently as well. It just gets hard to see how some people work so hard to honor their dogs with titles and how people like this disregard and disparage the value of it.|
|06-08-2014 10:33 PM|
Not sure there's much good ammunition from Noek for my positive assertion--on this particular thread--but, eh, time will tell.
|06-08-2014 09:46 PM|
|churchill||Charlie, you and Noek are hopeless. I just hope that whoever might be lurking on this thread can draw the right conclusions from it.|
|06-08-2014 08:37 PM|
Posts like this are exactly the reason so many random people are pushed away from this site- they were not saying to buy a dog from them they just said they saw one and happen to like them, thats it.
|06-08-2014 06:53 PM|
|churchill||How can anyone read a post like this and then post something that would promote or show this greeder in a positive light?|
|06-08-2014 05:57 PM|
|churchill||Some things just can't be logically communicated to some people. I just hate letting someone give such completely incorrect impressions without pointing them out. I've realized that so much of what this forum teaches is to lurkers who very infrequently post.|
|06-08-2014 03:45 PM|
Originally Posted by Noek View Post
The dog is the innocent, always, in all of this.
What was pointed out to you is that, on a thread where folks are asking about this breeder--who is a registered sex offender and has a long, documented history of poor breeding practices and substandard animal care, a happy sunshine post about one of his dogs can be the thing a newbie reader latches onto.
It just can, and that's reality.
When Family Dobes is blowing smoke up a potential puppy buyer's butt, and then they read on the interwebs "Oh, hey, I met one of their dogs and he was just sweet and awesome," do you truly not see how that might be construed as an endorsement?
Perhaps you could have shared your story in a bit more circumspect way, noting the issues with this kennel (they are here on this thread, and on many others) and saying it's nice this one pup landed safely and seems to be in a good home, etc.
You could either ponder that, see if anything there seems valid to you, or you could escalate on the back-and-forth pot shots with Churchill or others, it's all on you
|06-08-2014 02:05 PM|
|churchill||Bwahahahahaha! That is so funny! Nope, others understood exactly what I was saying, it went right over your head and is doing it again. Is English your first language? If it is, I hear the sound of whooshing.|
|06-08-2014 01:52 PM|
Time to move on......
|06-08-2014 01:47 PM|
|lise couturier|| |
Originally Posted by BingaDing View Post
|06-08-2014 01:11 PM|
Yes Flipcandy, that is exactly what I meant. We know that poor breeding can result in a few decent dogs. It's the percentage of health and temperament nightmares that come with that kind of breeding that we are trying to warn people about. There is no reason to insult the owner or the dog if/when you meet them, it's another thing to post that this greeder bred a decent dog on a public forum that is misleading. |
Who's logic "sucks?"
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