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11-24-2012 07:59 PM
spider142 thank you that was very nice
10-03-2012 08:57 PM
Fortheloveofadoberman Excellent message!! Being a 1st time doberman owner, I can tell you how hard it is to find a good breeder. I soon found out that those pretty websites may or may not be real, and alot of breeders will say almost word for word the same sentence. I had a hard time finding someone who I thought was good. Well, I am still searching... Not sure what I should or should not say on here, but I know I had a lot of questions about the breed and If I had found the doberman forum back then, it might have really helped me.. Would love to express my experiences and thoughts just as an educational discussion. I do not mean to talk bad about anyone, just what it was like for a novice doberman owner. and Yes I am really very new on here which I have stated in a few places here just learning my way around so please be patient with me. thanks for any discussion or help.
08-02-2012 08:53 PM
In the Hamptons
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dobejazz View Post
Because this thread is not meant to be breeder specific. We are in no way attempting to prevent threads be them good or bad about any breeder. We actually welcome/encourage people to post their experiences with breeders in order for others to research and make their own decisions. We are just asking that if you want to share your experience with your breeder you create a separate thread about it.
Fair enough ! Thanks.
08-02-2012 07:41 PM
Dobejazz
Quote:
Originally Posted by In the Hamptons View Post
Since I simply replied to the concerns stated in the original post - I'm not clear why my response has been 'deemed' inappropriate for this thread. We have many breeders who contribute to this forum. Some are absolutely invaluable ! They live up to BASIC breeding standards- and share their insight and experience quite generously. I would happily name names if I could ! lol Others merely check in to promote their wins or upcoming litters. They're all here- for better or worse. But, if any breeder on this forum is so lacking in integrity as to be threatened ~or intimidated ~ by the prospect of being held accountable for their breeding practices - then so be it. But if we, as a community of doberman lovers, acquiesce to their desire to NOT be held accountable to the standards (that they established to differentiate themselves from BYBer's) - then what exactly are we providing for current and future doberman owners ? And what sort of future are we attempting to secure for the breed that we all so dearly love ?? If you'd like me to begin another thread on this ... let me know.

Because this thread is not meant to be breeder specific. We are in no way attempting to prevent threads be them good or bad about any breeder. We actually welcome/encourage people to post their experiences with breeders in order for others to research and make their own decisions. We are just asking that if you want to share your experience with your breeder you create a separate thread about it.
08-02-2012 04:39 PM
In the Hamptons
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dobejazz View Post
In the Hamptons we as staff have no issues with your post other than it should be its own thread, not a part of this one.
Since I simply replied to the concerns stated in the original post - I'm not clear why my response has been 'deemed' inappropriate for this thread. We have many breeders who contribute to this forum. Some are absolutely invaluable ! They live up to BASIC breeding standards- and share their insight and experience quite generously. I would happily name names if I could ! lol Others merely check in to promote their wins or upcoming litters. They're all here- for better or worse. But, if any breeder on this forum is so lacking in integrity as to be threatened ~or intimidated ~ by the prospect of being held accountable for their breeding practices - then so be it. But if we, as a community of doberman lovers, acquiesce to their desire to NOT be held accountable to the standards (that they established to differentiate themselves from BYBer's) - then what exactly are we providing for current and future doberman owners ? And what sort of future are we attempting to secure for the breed that we all so dearly love ?? If you'd like me to begin another thread on this ... let me know.
08-02-2012 01:25 PM
Dobejazz In the Hamptons we as staff have no issues with your post other than it should be its own thread, not a part of this one.
08-02-2012 12:53 PM
In the Hamptons
Quote:
Originally Posted by melbrod View Post
And in another announcement..........

We mods would like you folks to know that this thread was meant for general hypothetical discussions about our treatment of breeders on DT, not for discussions of a specific breeder's practices. It was also intended to discuss our treatment of breeders, not to actually discuss the individual breeders themselves. We would like this to be a statement which can be read and understood at any time in the future, even by newcomers to this forum who may not be fully cognizant of the personalities and histories that are being brought up here. The statement's intent is to make clear, in the context of breeder's discussions, a general standard for the civility we should practice toward all members of this forum.

Accordingly, do not post comments about a specific breeder here. Please try to make your comments both general and in a constructive spirit.
Dear Mods ~ I think your position is valid -and possibly should have been stated in the original posting. I still believe that requiring health testing; calling out breeders for over breeding bitches; failure to honor contractual obligations, etc. - should NOT be considered " insurmountable" standards ~as per the original post. These are standards that have been previously set by the so called 'ethical' breeders to differentiate themselves from the BYB'ers. Feel free to strike my reference to Rauschund in my previous post. I mentioned my experience with her just to allow readers some insight into how careful one needs to be. It's important not to be intimidated or dazzled by big name handlers and big wins. I think it's vitally important as a public forum dedicated to the well being of dobermans that we do not tip-toe around the feelings of breeders ~ JUST because they are 'breeders'. If individual breeders are doing an amazing job- as many of our DT community are- then, by all means, let's CELEBRATE them and share the news !! If not, I believe it's a sad disservice to all doberman lovers- everywhere- to provide a smoke screen for the many who are not.
08-02-2012 12:30 PM
Ruthie
Quote:
Originally Posted by astra View Post
How about we all trying to be so damn judgemental of everyone and everything PERIOD. I'm sure some will read my post and accuse me of being a member of the "nice police" which couldn't be any further from the truth. I too am guilty of being a bully in the past but I have made and am continuing trying to make an honest effort to stop. I used to LOVE DT and I would spend countless hours on here- that is not the case anymore. I still try to read the rescue section on a regular basis but as for the other threads, I just tend to skip over them (I almost felt like I had to take an Advil and an antacid before reading). I have grown very tired of seeing people who don't know any better, come to DT to post and get ripped to shreds, made to feel like an idiot, belittled and run off for good. Everyone has to start somewhere and NO ONE on this forum is perfect. I just wish everyone would think about their post before they hit that submit button and that goes for the "thanks" button too.

Some time ago a new poster kept in touch with me after leaving DT shortly after they joined. Not knowing any better, they had bought a puppy from a BYB and came to the forum seeking help. Instead, they were pummeled for purchasing their pup from a BYB, told how ugly their puppy was, and were directed to seek help from the breeder they chose. They sent me this link and told me that this is what DT is like to an outsider.

Online Forum Etiquette: How to Deal with a Forum Bully - Yahoo! Voices - voices.yahoo.com


Just a little food for thought Maybe everyone should take a moment and think about what part you play in the DT "kingdom".

I beleive it...but on the other hand I have been on alot of forums--this one is THE TAMEST one I have seen (except a local jazz one where everyone is already friends...) in general I think people are nice on here even to new people BUT there are a few regulars who pummel people with rudeness and judgements based on a few sentances without having all the facts making the forum seem rude...a few loudmouths

one thing my pastor always emphasized is that people are not going to accept correction when you do not have a relationship with them--point being when you word your posts in an unfriendly way the person won't receive it anyway--what good is that...

also you really do need to have real facts to back up your judgements-for example there may be a breeder who has alot of litters--you may not like it
well...maybe they have a long long waiting list -and lots of staff or family helping--meaning unless you have analyzed their situation how do you know it's bad...slander is a legal issue and there are people seeking legal counsel because of this forum and I don't know who sponsers it but I"m sure if they are hit in their wallet hard enough they will close it down . I was once on a very populated weightlifting forum and it closed down without warning overnite--sponsers changed their mind and I know from talking to a moderator that negativity was part of it--they don't want the liability.
08-01-2012 05:46 PM
melbrod And in another announcement..........

We mods would like you folks to know that this thread was meant for general hypothetical discussions about our treatment of breeders on DT, not for discussions of a specific breeder's practices. It was also intended to discuss our treatment of breeders, not to actually discuss the individual breeders themselves. We would like this to be a statement which can be read and understood at any time in the future, even by newcomers to this forum who may not be fully cognizant of the personalities and histories that are being brought up here. The statement's intent is to make clear, in the context of breeder's discussions, a general standard for the civility we should practice toward all members of this forum.

Accordingly, do not post comments about a specific breeder here. Please try to make your comments both general and in a constructive spirit.
08-01-2012 01:54 PM
brw1982 In the Hamptons - It sounds like you had an awful experience. I'm sorry for the loss of your girl.
08-01-2012 01:44 PM
In the Hamptons Well, gosh. So our DT 'breeders' are uncomfortable with being asked to adhere to the very same standards that THEY have set up to distinguish themselves from a breeder of the likes, of say ... Kimbertal. Oh dear. We all (rightly) trash K'tal for over breeding, breeding stock that's too young. Breeding without titles, - or no health testing. Yet I've seen post after post over the years of our so called 'ethical' breeders attempting to justify the same lack of ethics in their own programs. Rauschund- the breeder and sole owner- of my much loved little bitch- originally agreed to finish the bitch ( if not AKC -then CKC) , fully health test her and get two litters back- at which point she was to transfer sole ownership to me. I have this agreement in writing. My responsibility in this was to socialize, show train , take to matches , shows and the National. I did ALL of that - plus much more! In addition, I entered and showed her myself in 18 shows -garnering 5 reserves. Unfortunately, $$$ was needed to Special this particular bitches brother- and Rauschund made a decision to breed her with out any points OR health testint. At all. When we questioned this and reminded Rauschund of our original agreement- she threatened to take the bitch back. Unfortunately, I had to threaten her with a lawsuit in order to resolve this very distressing situation. ( Also documented ! ) But here is the saddest part of the story. This bitch was diagnosed with Thyroid cancer 3 months after she whelped that litter. The veterinary team that attended to her said that if she had been tested BEFORE the breeding- we may have had more treatment options and may have been able to remove the malignancy- or at the very least slow the progression.
So, my point in all of this is ... if we're going to begin blurring the lines between the so called 'ethical breeders' and the 'unethical' ones- then what is left ?? With all the devastating health issues running rampant in our breed- how would anyone even begin to determine who to go to for a happy, healthy puppy ?? The breeder that I referenced is a DPCA member- and had a dog in the top 20. I mean really !! What service would we be providing as an educational forum if we're scared to shine a light on breeders who are actually a detriment to the breed ? No matter their status in the DPCA. We would render ourselves meaningless ~and no longer be of any real service to doberman lovers. Or indeed, to the doberman's themselves. How sad.
08-01-2012 01:43 PM
robinb
Quote:
Originally Posted by MeadowCat View Post
I don't think this is entirely fair. There are a few great breeders who have had dogs end up in rescue, tried to get them back, and the rescue will NOT release them to the breeder. I personally don't understand why; my rescue would be thrilled to return a dog to a good breeder for rehoming, but this is not the case with every rescue.
I hadnít thought of that in dogs but it has happened with horses. There have been some very nice Arabian horses that were not returned to their original breeders by rescues, and were thus stripped of their papers and heritage in the process. Furthermore, those breeders offered reimbursement for all the expenses and were still not given their horses back. Thanks for bringing this aspect up as it does not speak well for any rescue that plays that game.
08-01-2012 01:18 PM
VZ-Doberman When some posters fill in the blanks about a breeder with assumptions, speculations and even lies this forum loses. When the attacks become personal and inaccurate this forum loses.
08-01-2012 01:09 PM
astra
Quote:
Originally Posted by MeadowCat View Post
I don't think this is entirely fair. There are a few great breeders who have had dogs end up in rescue, tried to get them back, and the rescue will NOT release them to the breeder. I personally don't understand why; my rescue would be thrilled to return a dog to a good breeder for rehoming, but this is not the case with every rescue.

Sometimes dogs end up in rescue. The breeder doesn't always know that it has happened. If they do, and they work with the rescue, covering the cost of care and making sure the dog is placed in a good home, I don't have a problem with that. If it happens repeatedly, with many dogs, I think the breeder should probably take a look at their home screening process and make some changes.

I volunteer with rescue. I can't tell you how many times owners have surrendered their dogs and don't remember what breeder they came from. Yes, good breeders make every effort to keep their dogs out of rescue, and to retrieve them if they learn they are in rescue. But it's not always as black and white as you make it sound.
Unfortunately with one breeder in particular that some on DT choose to support, yes it is.
08-01-2012 01:04 PM
MeadowCat
Quote:
Originally Posted by astra View Post
"But breeders who are health testing their dogs and are aware of the health and temperament issues each dog's heritage brings to the breeding, and who are also proving their dog's breeding worth in general venues are the breeders that we should support on DT, regardless of whether we, personally, agree with all of their breeding decisions."

If a breeder does all of the above and still allows their dogs to end up in the care of a rescue, on multiple occassions, they will NEVER have my support on DT or my support PERIOD.
I don't think this is entirely fair. There are a few great breeders who have had dogs end up in rescue, tried to get them back, and the rescue will NOT release them to the breeder. I personally don't understand why; my rescue would be thrilled to return a dog to a good breeder for rehoming, but this is not the case with every rescue.

Sometimes dogs end up in rescue. The breeder doesn't always know that it has happened. If they do, and they work with the rescue, covering the cost of care and making sure the dog is placed in a good home, I don't have a problem with that. If it happens repeatedly, with many dogs, I think the breeder should probably take a look at their home screening process and make some changes.

I volunteer with rescue. I can't tell you how many times owners have surrendered their dogs and don't remember what breeder they came from. Yes, good breeders make every effort to keep their dogs out of rescue, and to retrieve them if they learn they are in rescue. But it's not always as black and white as you make it sound.
08-01-2012 12:01 PM
astra "But breeders who are health testing their dogs and are aware of the health and temperament issues each dog's heritage brings to the breeding, and who are also proving their dog's breeding worth in general venues are the breeders that we should support on DT, regardless of whether we, personally, agree with all of their breeding decisions."

If a breeder does all of the above and still allows their dogs to end up in the care of a rescue, on multiple occassions, they will NEVER have my support on DT or my support PERIOD.
07-30-2012 06:55 PM
KCFilley
Quote:
Originally Posted by marymouse View Post
Please do not get rid of the litter announcements for us new members still looking for a puppy. Its easier to look here for new litters then trying to get members of the doberman club of america to respond back to you regarding a puppy. I wrote 18 (great) breeders and only got 8 responses back. 5 of the 8 were very helpful regarding questions I had about the doberman in general. I think this is very sad for us new owners to be. It doesn't take much to email someone back, yes I have a planned breeding or no i do not. I still have hope though. Mary
Hi, I don't have anything to do with the litter announcements. I don't see anyone getting rid of that however.
07-30-2012 06:48 PM
astra
Quote:
Originally Posted by LindaH View Post
It hasn't been that long ago that I said many of our breeders had left and hardly any breeders participated anymore because of our "judgements". How we should realize not all breeders believed as we do and one must decide for themselves what they would accept in a breeder as far as health tests, etc.

Also got slammed by a lot of people posting on this thread for standing up for newbies that were being bullied on here about buying byb puppies. If they already have the puppy, just shut up and help them or don't. Some even tried to imply I was supporting byb, which was not so and anyone who knows me, knows that. Was even told, me telling people how to communicate was rude.

Wish that thread could be pulled up but it is too far back in my history to access.

Okay, got that off my chest.

Glad this finally got said as it has needed to be said for a couple of years at least. Adjusting to not being judgemental about breeders is a hard concept, tho, very hard.

Again, if someone already has purchased a byb puppy, just help them and try not to be the twentieth person to mention they bought from a byb and how the pup will have all kinds of health problems and probably bankrupt the owner just before it dies!!!
How about we all trying to be so damn judgemental of everyone and everything PERIOD. I'm sure some will read my post and accuse me of being a member of the "nice police" which couldn't be any further from the truth. I too am guilty of being a bully in the past but I have made and am continuing trying to make an honest effort to stop. I used to LOVE DT and I would spend countless hours on here- that is not the case anymore. I still try to read the rescue section on a regular basis but as for the other threads, I just tend to skip over them (I almost felt like I had to take an Advil and an antacid before reading). I have grown very tired of seeing people who don't know any better, come to DT to post and get ripped to shreds, made to feel like an idiot, belittled and run off for good. Everyone has to start somewhere and NO ONE on this forum is perfect. I just wish everyone would think about their post before they hit that submit button and that goes for the "thanks" button too.

Some time ago a new poster kept in touch with me after leaving DT shortly after they joined. Not knowing any better, they had bought a puppy from a BYB and came to the forum seeking help. Instead, they were pummeled for purchasing their pup from a BYB, told how ugly their puppy was, and were directed to seek help from the breeder they chose. They sent me this link and told me that this is what DT is like to an outsider.

Online Forum Etiquette: How to Deal with a Forum Bully - Yahoo! Voices - voices.yahoo.com


Just a little food for thought Maybe everyone should take a moment and think about what part you play in the DT "kingdom".
07-30-2012 05:04 PM
marymouse
Quote:
Originally Posted by KCFilley View Post
Your only saving grace is that you own a dog I would love to own! Ha. You explained just fine.

Next poster, new argument.
Please do not get rid of the litter announcements for us new members still looking for a puppy. Its easier to look here for new litters then trying to get members of the doberman club of america to respond back to you regarding a puppy. I wrote 18 (great) breeders and only got 8 responses back. 5 of the 8 were very helpful regarding questions I had about the doberman in general. I think this is very sad for us new owners to be. It doesn't take much to email someone back, yes I have a planned breeding or no i do not. I still have hope though. Mary
07-30-2012 04:40 PM
Amelia_ I dont think I'll bother any more.
07-30-2012 03:57 PM
brw1982 For the record, I wasn't trying to passive-aggressively exaggerate some great class divide between breeders and pet people. There is a divide (of knowledge, not classes) and that's reality, much like the divide between an undergrad and a PhD, but I meant no sarcastic "whoa is me for being a pet home" type attitude as I think some people may have taken my post to be insinuating. Really I was trying to convey my understanding that I, as a pet home, do not have the experience nor the knowledge that some long time breed people do and I was trying to explain as clearly as possible why it would benefit everyone and help prevent large, unnecessary arguments if breeders were more proactive about sharing information and being as open and transparent as possible with the pet home population - particularly when the breeder is the one to bring the forum's attention to something. I used the terms "breeders" and "pet homes" rather than naming names, myself included, in an effort to neutralize my post. Did not mean to provoke sarcasm or emotionally charge the term "pet home".
07-30-2012 03:28 PM
LindaH It hasn't been that long ago that I said many of our breeders had left and hardly any breeders participated anymore because of our "judgements". How we should realize not all breeders believed as we do and one must decide for themselves what they would accept in a breeder as far as health tests, etc.

Also got slammed by a lot of people posting on this thread for standing up for newbies that were being bullied on here about buying byb puppies. If they already have the puppy, just shut up and help them or don't. Some even tried to imply I was supporting byb, which was not so and anyone who knows me, knows that. Was even told, me telling people how to communicate was rude.

Wish that thread could be pulled up but it is too far back in my history to access.

Okay, got that off my chest.

Glad this finally got said as it has needed to be said for a couple of years at least. Adjusting to not being judgemental about breeders is a hard concept, tho, very hard.

Again, if someone already has purchased a byb puppy, just help them and try not to be the twentieth person to mention they bought from a byb and how the pup will have all kinds of health problems and probably bankrupt the owner just before it dies!!!
07-30-2012 03:19 PM
Sam1491
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ruthie View Post
wasn't this issues solved when they came out with the albino Warlock?
Are you just trying to stir up trouble?

This is an adult conversation covering some serious and good points in a polite tactful way with answers that happen to be relevant, how does your response fit at all and why did it seem necessary.....
07-30-2012 03:10 PM
Ruthie
Quote:
Originally Posted by Asmit View Post
Wouldn't it be great for these two words to go hand in hand one day?

I have seen "show breeders" criticize "working breeders" and working criticize show so often, that it would be nice to see both show breeders working their dogs and working breeders showing their dogs. Speaking of 'improving the breed as whole' I think this may be just it. Where working breeders can lack in conformation, show breeders could improve upon working ability to have the 'ultimate' Doberman.
Not that this would ever happen, but every time I see that phrase, I wish it did not exist!

Great post by the way brw!!
wasn't this issues solved when they came out with the albino Warlock?
07-30-2012 03:01 PM
Amelia_
Quote:
Originally Posted by melbrod View Post
AGE-ISM!!!! I cry FOUL!!

If age cannot be said to be linked directly to knowledge, neither can age be automatically linked to poor practices (old ways). You can't have it both ways. There is bad management of dogs, their training and their breeding, up and down the age spectrum.


But I digress, in my elderly way of inconsequential rambling. I know what you are trying to say.....I think........
I hope I cleared up thats not how I feel in my later posts, but just incase not.

I believe people should be judged on their own merits, experiences, knowledge and achievements, not on their age.
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