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  Topic Review (Newest First)
06-29-2019 12:59 PM
LadyDi
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ghostika View Post
Where in Florida?
We just moved to FL, I have a 9m old Eu dobie male.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Tampa Bay Area.
Welcome to Florida...........you will enjoy the winter months here........refreshing!!!
06-29-2019 10:09 AM
Ghostika
Quote:
Originally Posted by LadyDi View Post
Welcome to our forum.
What neck of the woods do you live in ?
I have a European Doberman I reside in Florida ...........have you owned a Doberman before ?
Hoss is my service dog I use him for mobility assistance ...I have developed balance issues due to a severe hearing loss ......I tend to displace sounds due to the unbalanced hearing......so his alerts help me with determining the direction that sounds are coming from........cars, sirens , etc. .......
Many folks within this forum have American Dobermans ......some have Euro’s ........IMO lots of good breeders out there.......but many not so good......so you probably already know when shopping .....as the saying goes ...”Trust but verify”.........unfortunate but true................
Hoss has been of great service to me....allowing me to do things that I would not normally be able to do........my favorite is hiking in the mountains........he is always there for me to lean on ............he’s my best friend for sure.....................you have found a great forum here .....everyone is nice.......although sometimes we agree to disagree with one another......but we remain respectful of one another.
Welcome from Florida........


Under user name “Artemis” .......this is another member within this forum that has a lot of intel on Euro’s ........she posts quite a bit so hopefully she will chime in on this thread........


Where in Florida?
We just moved to FL, I have a 9m old Eu dobie male.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
06-28-2019 10:23 AM
Artemis
Quote:
Originally Posted by blue.dog.blue View Post
May I ask, where did you get your Doberman from? Describe your Doberman to me and if there is anything you would change about the dog. Who was their dam and sire? What is their temperament like, their drives?
My dog is from North/South American showlines.
I got her from a breeder in Quebec. She is by Tiburon Demolition Man "Wrecker" and out of Fabert's Living in Sin "Sin" (herself by Fabert's More Man than Most and out of Heartwood's Hot Zamba "Reece", which I'll get to in a minute).

Her temperament is in my opinion ideal for a doberman. She is very mentally stable, has excellent environmental nerves and has perhaps even more importantly than the last one, a very good bounce-back. She is watchful, alert, obedient - she is aloof and reserved with strangers outside the home, but friendly and welcoming when I invite someone into the home. She is protective and has been described as being a 'civil' dog by protection trainers rather than a sport dog. This means she focuses on the decoy and the fight with the decoy more than she focuses on the sleeve/suit. Even before she had any formal training she had no hesitation in engaging with a potential threat. She is sensitive but not overly so, and as I said she has a good bounceback so her sensitivity isn't a detriment from where I stand but rather a quality. Interestingly she is LESS sensitive than the two european imports my friend has and better bounce back, even though one of those females is from showlines who work. (Her dogs are very good but it's clearly different). She is highly intelligent and very affectionate.

Her standout qualities to me are her handler focus and engagement. This is a dog that loves to work with me and wants to work with me. Sometimes she will go to the entrance of the house and nudges her SD harness repeatedly while wagging her tail. The other day at the training club she was in her crate and I was sorting through her bag... when I lifted the agitation harness she gave me the sweetest puppy dog eyes with her ears perked up as if to say "please.... open this crate and put that harness on so we can go to the field". She also has a lot of willingness and generally takes things in stride with whatever situations I throw at her. A lot of the titles she's gotten, were gotten without any preparation and just us going in 'cold'. She always tries her hardest to please me.

Another thing I like about her is that she has drive but she tends to remain calm and focused while in drive. Her drive translates into intense focus on what she is doing, and it is actually almost cute to see how intensely concentrated she can be while working. For instance when we practice stacking/conformation often she is paying attention to me so hard and focusing that I have a hard time bringing her tail back up, because she tends to bring her tail horizontal while concentrating. She has excellent food drive, she has intense toy drive for the toys she does like (tug toys) but not much interest for the toys she doesn't (she doesn't care about balls, she'll chase if you throw but wont grab them) and she also thrives on praise - so that makes her a HIGHLY trainable dog.

As a service dog, there were many tasks she knew instinctively the best way to deal with me, I just later taught her how to do them on command if necessary. I get compliments all the time while we are doing public access work on how well behaved she is.

I don't know that there is anything I would change about her temperament-wise she really is well suited to me. Her grips/bites could be better but I know a huge component of that is genetic, yet another component of that is also just training/the breed. A very experienced man in the sport of IGP who worked her said she had a lot of potential a lot more than I may even realize, but she just needed time. He has owned GSDs and Dobermans and said female dobes especially need to be given time to build their confidence in what they are doing in protection, not because they are insecure or skittish but because they so badly want to do the right thing so they can be hesitant at times. She's been improving by leaps and bounds however. To be clear she has a strong bite, she just doesn't have the full deep grip that IGP wants to see. Other protection sports don't evaluate grips so it wouldn't matter if we were still doing suit work which is what interests me most (but I can't keep bouncing back and forth between sports so I am committed to IGP with her. And if I am to breed her, I'd want to have options for her offspring so I am wanting to select a male with nice full, deep grips.)

Physically she is a moderate, racier type, well balanced, a little bit of a 'throwback' except perhaps for her size (she's the max allowed size for a female in the US/Canada standard). So I don't think she is the type of dog that you personally would like, aesthetically.

Back to her temperament - when I met her dam I knew I wanted a pup from her because what I observed was a real, correct doberman temperament. And as I later found out she had inherited that temperament from her own dam, the aforementioned Reece. The breeder had littermates and the other female did not have the same temperament so I knew I wanted a puppy from Sin. Interestingly Reece comes from a breeder that although are showline dogs, are generally moderate in conformation and has several certified therapy dogs and Reece has a littermate who is both an AKC Ch and SAR certified. I only found this out well after getting Nadia but suddenly her abilities and temperament made sense. Sin had everything I wanted in a dobe - velcro to her owner, stable in a busy crowded area and tolerant but aloof. She was very watchful too. She would patrol the owner's stables every day and then sit at the top of the stairs to the hayloft and watch over her queendom. She was also protective and she was the female they used to choose their puppy buyers.

Nadia (my girl)'s sire was more extroverted and friendly, however he had a good stable temperament and he has several dogs behind him with a WAC. He is a mixture of US lines and Argentine lines and I've noticed the South American dogs tend to be sharper and harder than the US dogs as a whole. And unsurprisingly a lot of US dogs and particularly the ones finding success at the WAE often have south american influences (which became popular to blend in the US because there have been some lovely Argentinian dogs in particular conformation-wise, even though South American countries use the FCI standard their dogs resemble ours a lot more). I know a few people who are successfully training and competing with South American lines in protection sports. Maybe it's because several SA countries still use dobes in their police forces? However as he got older Wrecker developed his protection instincts it seems. When I spoke to his owner recently and told him I was training in IGP he said "if she's anything like wrecker I bet she loves it". He also sent me a couple of videos of him doing "agility" but with equestrian obstacles so he clearly had a willingness and eagerness to please and work.

So overall - Nadia I would say is medium energy (for a doberman) possibly on the high end for show lines with good drive and comes from a sire with good drive and out of a dam from lines with good drive. Her dam passed away recently, she broke her neck in a freak accident while playing, leaving her paralyzed so after weeks of trying other options they chose to put her to sleep. But at 7 she was running hard enough in her usual field for that to happen so I'd say her energy was also mid to high.


06-27-2019 10:48 PM
blue.dog.blue May I ask, where did you get your Doberman from? Describe your Doberman to me and if there is anything you would change about the dog. Who was their dam and sire? What is their temperament like, their drives?
06-27-2019 07:05 PM
Artemis Dobermann di Ultimatus doesn't do anything with their dogs. They don't title them, they barely health test them and to my understanding don't even register them with the Canadian Kennel Club.

Aldercrest is a name I haven't seen in a while but they're one of the ones on the west coast. Vom Landgraf as well, but unless you can show you have titled dogs in protection venues in the past I doubt Wendy will sell you a dog. She won't even sell to long time, experienced doberman owners if they've never owned a dobe from working lines and worked/trained them.
You've got Incredible Dobermans out there as well.

We don't really rank breeders by an absolute "best of" on this forum because it really depends on what you want. Who is the 'best' totally depends on your individual criteria and your needs, plus individual preferences. Even in terms of work there will be preferences. Personally so far I prefer a more sensitive and responsive dog who I only need to use verbal corrections with than a dog who is a massive badass but very hard and fights the handler instead of fighting the decoy. Some people prefer a hard dog that will endure whatever they throw at the verbally or physically and come out the same on the other side.

For your specific needs because you want your dog to also be an SD I'd be looking at recommending Vom Koby Haus (NY), Schwarzer Stolz (Quebec) or Rebholzer (VT) although the latter is not planning a litter any time soon. Those three use primarily or exclusively European lines. The first has produced certified therapy dogs who also title in IGP, the second is expecting her first litter with an imported bitch from Belarus who has a BH and is a UKC ch, and breeding to a stud from the former. The last has produced at least one medical alert dog to my knowledge and has a current cadaver dog in another state.

You've got Julie Stade, Kansa Dobermans, Benchmark Dobermans, all in the midwest and Cara Dobermans in NY who blend US and European show and working lines. However from the dogs I have seen of these breeders in terms of physical attributes they are definitely producing more moderate looking dogs, and probably not the type you are looking for. Temperaments are a range and you'd have to check for the SD prospects but Julie's dogs are all "farm dogs" on top of everything else and seem to have a well-rounded temperament. Benchmark's dogs do PSA so as you can imagine they have a lot of nerve and strength of temperament.

There is one breeder - Bell'Lavoro who might have what you're looking for in terms of looks. I know nothing about Vicky's dogs in terms of temperament though so I can't vouch for you there.

Swift Run and Treasure Seeker are in the South. I am not 100% on this but I think they also do blended lines.

The united doberman club website as was referred to you up thread is a good place to start.

I have a Psychiatric (Anxiety, PTSD and mood disorders) Service doberman who also trains in IGP. It takes a special dog to do both, because where some dogs might excel at the sport, the parts of them that help them excel might not be great for public access work. And particularly dobermans - who are so sensitive and so in-tuned to their owner's mental and emotional well being, but them being protection dogs mean that they might tend to have the reflex of inappropriate reactions (i.e. if you get anxious and the dog hasn't properly been trained or shown how to respond, he may react to a nearby person. If the dog hasn't learned to discern what is an external threat, he will take his cues from you and make decisions that won't always be the right one. If you pair that with a strong working temperament and a genetic propensity to bite... you an see how that can get disastrous quickly).

The first thing you should be looking for is absolute temperamental stability. And I can tell you that unlike what a lot of people think, Euros are not inherently more even keeled or even tempered, and they are not necessarily truly strong protection dogs (many show line euros will have a ZTP or even IPO1, but they were built all up in prey drive and are otherwise skittish dogs who cower). Heck I've seen a couple fail their Temperament Test at UDC shows.

Also keep in mind that someone striving to produce IDC Weltmeister IGP3 champions, may not care about other aspects of temperament as long as they perform on the field. So when seeking an SD, especially a PSD you're gonna have to ask questions and talk to a lot of people and really research lines and pedigrees, not just look at titles.

I know a dog who has a Canine Good Neighbour title who just bit his terrified owner, requiring stitches. So titles don't always tell the whole story when it comes to temperament. The good thing however is that in my experience most working breeders are very honest and very realistic about their dog's temperaments and are likely to have a good gauge on them.

Follow the United Doberman Club facebook and instagram pages, go to the website and reach out to them. You can also reach out to the breeders suggested in this thread. But be patient.

It really is a shame Rebholzer's planned litter this year fell through, because I have been so impressed with her dogs and I have seen them under duress and holy ****, bar none probably the most solid environmental nerves and stability I have personally witnessed. And this is a reflection in my opinion of the rigorous mentality she has in terms of the priority she puts on the quality of temperament in her dogs. She is my mentor for a reason. However she could probably give you recommendations for breeders in terms of what you're seeking.
06-27-2019 06:42 PM
blue.dog.blue I want a Euro breeder vs. an American because I have seen both types of dog in action and the Euro aligns with more of what I want both look-wise and work-ability. I feel that the American lines have bred away from the original idea of a dobermann.
06-27-2019 06:20 PM
MeadowCat Here is a link to one of the BJF dogs (he's young - under 2) that is doing well in sports, as well as actually showing in the AKC ring. I really like this boy.

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?f...type=3&theater

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?f...type=3&theater

His Dobequest is here: Dobequestog Profile Page You can see he does have some American lines, but is mostly working lines - Chalmar and Landgraf, which go back to Euro stuff. Again, NOT my area of expertise at all, but I do follow Julie's breedings because I like her as a breeder. Just an example.
06-27-2019 05:10 PM
greenkouki

This is the type of "Euro" doberman you like the look of, right? If so you really won't find a working bred dog that looks like that from a reputable working type breeder.
You might find some of the later replies in this recent thread eye opening. https://www.dobermantalk.com/breedin...g-breeder.html
06-27-2019 03:00 PM
MeadowCat
Quote:
Originally Posted by blue.dog.blue View Post
I have another question. Are there any other breeders that produce dogs that are successful sport dog, police dogs, SAR dogs etc.. (working dogs) that are strictly Euro that you would recommend as a service dog? I want a working line Euro Dobermann and you seem to know your stuff.
I'm not not sure who this is directed to...I don't personally follow Euro breedings as that's not really my thing. I do follow a few working breeders, as I do some sports with my dogs - I'm far more interested in the stability, personality, etc than I am in the "origins" of the dogs, but I'm not in the market for a pup any time soon, so it's a pretty casual "following" of breeders, if you can call it that.

I think your best bet is still the UDC if you want a working Euro Doberman. I'd probably go to their Facebook page and do some browsing, if it were me (https://www.facebook.com/uniteddobermanclub/). Get a sense of which breeders are competing. You'll see which breeders names are coming up and you can follow that in order to contact people and talk to them, see who might be a good fit.

Since you haven't said, remember that the Euro working lines may look different than a "Euro Doberman" that you might find on Google images or on some breeder pages if you're not looking at quality breeders. Some people are fooled by the fad and the bad breeders who claim that Euros are bigger, or you see some poor examples....if you're getting one for the right reasons, that won't matter. Do some looking at good working breeder websites or FB pages here and they're not going to look that different in size than American bred dogs.

If I *personally* was going to get a working line dog, the first person I'd contact is Julie Stade at BJF.
06-27-2019 02:37 PM
melbrod To be fair, there is one (I think legitimate) reason someone might ask you why you want a Euro dog as opposed to an American bred dog. Here in the States it is much easier to get a good American bloodline dog from a reputable breeder, than it is to find a good Euro dobe. "Euro breeding", unfortunately, is often just an advertising gimmick for many breeders who are just out there to make a quick buck with their dogs.

I think you know that, but a lot of people new to the breed get sucked in by the "Euro is better" claim, and end up with a substandard dog, or a dog whose temperament may be difficult for them to handle.

So we do often ask why a person wants a Euro dog, and if their answer is rather cliche-ish and seems to be parroting the over-blown advertising spiels you see out there, we try to make sure they truly know where the two types are similar and what might be different about them.
06-27-2019 02:25 PM
blue.dog.blue I have another question. Are there any other breeders that produce dogs that are successful sport dog, police dogs, SAR dogs etc.. (working dogs) that are strictly Euro that you would recommend as a service dog? I want a working line Euro Dobermann and you seem to know your stuff.
06-27-2019 02:17 PM
blue.dog.blue
Quote:
Originally Posted by LadyDi View Post
Welcome to our forum.
What neck of the woods do you live in ?
I have a European Doberman I reside in Florida ...........have you owned a Doberman before ?
Hoss is my service dog I use him for mobility assistance ...I have developed balance issues due to a severe hearing loss ......I tend to displace sounds due to the unbalanced hearing......so his alerts help me with determining the direction that sounds are coming from........cars, sirens , etc. .......
Many folks within this forum have American Dobermans ......some have Euro’s ........IMO lots of good breeders out there.......but many not so good......so you probably already know when shopping .....as the saying goes ...”Trust but verify”.........unfortunate but true................
Hoss has been of great service to me....allowing me to do things that I would not normally be able to do........my favorite is hiking in the mountains........he is always there for me to lean on ............he’s my best friend for sure.....................you have found a great forum here .....everyone is nice.......although sometimes we agree to disagree with one another......but we remain respectful of one another.
Welcome from Florida........


Under user name “Artemis” .......this is another member within this forum that has a lot of intel on Euro’s ........she posts quite a bit so hopefully she will chime in on this thread........
I have not owned a dobermann before but have experience in working dogs and am ready for a the challenges and pleasures of owning a high drive Euro dobie fitting all of the criteria stated in my first post. I live in Colorado.
06-27-2019 02:14 PM
blue.dog.blue Thank you for the reply. I have noticed that you are a prominent member of DT. I feel that many people don't want to recommend me or direct me to excellent Euro dogs fit for IGO/IGP, working lines, sport work and other "hard-core" things because they think that I can't handle it because the dog with dual as a service dog. I appreciate your recommendations and reason why you have directed me here.
06-26-2019 09:15 PM
MeadowCat
Quote:
Originally Posted by blue.dog.blue View Post
I am looking for doberman breeders-but not just any breeder. I need a service dog. I have PTSD and a service dog would aid greatly. Doberman is my breed of choice. I am not physically impaired so I can man this dog just fine but the problem is that everything is so contradictory. I have an active lifestyle and am able to give this dog ample exercise and mental stimulation. Obedience will be a huge focus with the dog along with many other enriching dog sports.

I have been looking for a breeder of Euro Dobermans that have rich, developed character, fearlessness and a stable temperament with high drives to play, food and to please. The dog needs to be authentic Euro and a beautiful, well-muscled animal. I have yet been able to find this but I am looking to the forum to help. I have looked at Adlercrest, Dobermann Ultimatus and many others. Are any of the kennels listed before considerable or is there better out there that mirrors my criteria in their values? Please respond with an educated opinion and be kind. Any help appreciated. ^^
You might start by looking at the United Doberman Club - their breeder directory is here: https://uniteddobermanclub.com/udc-breeder-directory/. Most reputable breeders of European Dobermans in the US are people who are breeding working lines of Dobermans here. The European lines don't do as well in the American show ring (although we do see some that do, or some lines that are a working/show blend, or American/Euro blend in the show ring), but ethical breeders are generally titling their dogs, so it's harder to find anyone that's breeding Euro dogs that aren't focusing on sport.

Since you're looking for a SD prospect, you'll obviously have very high standards. You'll probably want to look for a breeder that has produced service dogs before. I do know Rebholzer has produced some service dogs (I believe she breeds Euro/American cross, but might be all Euro), Julie Stade at BJF Dobermans may have placed some dogs as service dogs - I know she has a pup currently in training at the Penn Vet Working Dog center. Her dogs have a lot of Euro lines in them, and I love what she produces.

Good luck in your search!
06-26-2019 04:16 AM
LadyDi Welcome to our forum.
What neck of the woods do you live in ?
I have a European Doberman I reside in Florida ...........have you owned a Doberman before ?
Hoss is my service dog I use him for mobility assistance ...I have developed balance issues due to a severe hearing loss ......I tend to displace sounds due to the unbalanced hearing......so his alerts help me with determining the direction that sounds are coming from........cars, sirens , etc. .......
Many folks within this forum have American Dobermans ......some have Euro’s ........IMO lots of good breeders out there.......but many not so good......so you probably already know when shopping .....as the saying goes ...”Trust but verify”.........unfortunate but true................
Hoss has been of great service to me....allowing me to do things that I would not normally be able to do........my favorite is hiking in the mountains........he is always there for me to lean on ............he’s my best friend for sure.....................you have found a great forum here .....everyone is nice.......although sometimes we agree to disagree with one another......but we remain respectful of one another.
Welcome from Florida........


Under user name “Artemis” .......this is another member within this forum that has a lot of intel on Euro’s ........she posts quite a bit so hopefully she will chime in on this thread........
06-25-2019 08:33 PM
blue.dog.blue
Best Euro Doberman Breeders in your opinion?

I am looking for doberman breeders-but not just any breeder. I need a service dog. I have PTSD and a service dog would aid greatly. Doberman is my breed of choice. I am not physically impaired so I can man this dog just fine but the problem is that everything is so contradictory. I have an active lifestyle and am able to give this dog ample exercise and mental stimulation. Obedience will be a huge focus with the dog along with many other enriching dog sports.

I have been looking for a breeder of Euro Dobermans that have rich, developed character, fearlessness and a stable temperament with high drives to play, food and to please. The dog needs to be authentic Euro and a beautiful, well-muscled animal. I have yet been able to find this but I am looking to the forum to help. I have looked at Adlercrest, Dobermann Ultimatus and many others. Are any of the kennels listed before considerable or is there better out there that mirrors my criteria in their values? Please respond with an educated opinion and be kind. Any help appreciated. ^^

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