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  Topic Review (Newest First)
02-16-2019 04:31 PM
ShelianDobe
Quote:
Originally Posted by Moos View Post
You don't think this exclusivity creates an unnecessary barrier and ultimately a market for the BYB's? I didn't write the standard, and I certainly don't get it. It just baffles me that folks would hold so strongly to something that wasn't natural or inherent to the animal.
I have to agree with Mary, if "this exclusivity" as you refer to it, creates a barrier and drives a person to BYBs, then that person's priorities aren't where they should be. Health, Longevity and Temperament should be ones priorities. In my opinion.

Additionally, we aren't losing out on great homes because we stick to our guns and crop our puppies, we have perhaps even greater homes with persons and families that are all about health, longevity and temperament. In any case, we all have a hefty waiting list, of well vetted excellent homes.

I, as most, breed for myself, at the time puppies are cropped, I rarely know who is staying, who goes to a show home and who goes to a companion home. So..... they are all cropped.

I can understand your frustration of not finding what you want, when you want, but I don't understand why ears would be of higher importance than health, longevity and temperament. But then, I don't understand why some pet people are stuck on a particular color or sex, at the sake of the more important health, longevity and temperament, either.

I wish you luck finding the puppy you are looking for.
02-07-2019 02:22 PM
Moos @MeadowCat and @MaryAndDobes ...you are correct, I have found this site to be very informative, and I appreciate the folks that have taken the time to provide that. And you are correct in that upon receipt of that information, it is on me to decide what I value most. I've encountered a few aggressive breeders in my search that portrayed a sense of exclusivity, that I have found confusing but mostly frustrating. And I apologize if my frustration fueled an accusatorial tone.
02-07-2019 02:02 PM
MeadowCat
Quote:
Originally Posted by Moos View Post
Well it's not just on them. It's on the community, bc the average person can't tell a BYB from a healthy, good tempered dobe. A poorly bred, poorly raised Doberman reflects poorly on the breed as a whole. Who's being egocentric?
I don't understand your point? You're right, the average person can't, but the people here do a lot of great education. For example, you came here, and we have provided a lot of information about what makes a good breeder, and why. You now have that information (as does anyone reading along, or anyone we talk to, etc). Once they have that information, it's really up the THEM to make the decision about what type of breeder to support, isn't it? Just like I posted earlier in the thread.... (post #6 if you want to read it again) - people decide what's most important to them. The best we can do is to provide education. Now it's in your hands (I don't mean YOU specifically, but the general "you")...what choice do you make? What do you prioritize and where do you rank ethics in there?

If you decide that ears are a dealbreaker and ethical breeding isn't, then I guess you choose to buy from a poor quality breeder. I'm not sure how that's any less egocentric, if you get right down to it. Every single breed has a breed standard, we all can agree or disagree with parts of those standards, and we can choose whether to support ethical breeders (as we define "ethical") within that breed or not. There are certainly breeds that I wouldn't own because I dislike their breed standards (or, I'd buy "working" lines, for example)...but for me, personally, ethical breeding (as I define it) is a deal breaker - I wouldn't buy from someone I don't consider ethical, regardless of my desires.

Your mileage may vary.
02-07-2019 02:00 PM
MaryAndDobes And btw, some poorly bred, poorly raised Dobermans are still spectacular pets in their own right, reflecting well on the breed as a whole. It's often those poorly bred ones that lead their owners to doing better (when purchasing) the next time. There are a lot of poorly bred, poorly raised Dobermans in rescue that are wonderful dogs.
02-07-2019 01:55 PM
MaryAndDobes
Quote:
Originally Posted by Moos View Post
Well it's not just on them. It's on the community, bc the average person can't tell a BYB from a healthy, good tempered dobe. A poorly bred, poorly raised Doberman reflects poorly on the breed as a whole.
And this is my fault how?

These days there is information everywhere. The breed clubs and the breeders themselves put up informational websites to help the average person learn how to tell the difference. We form newsgroups and facebook pages, clubs hold Meet The Breed events, there are books, there are magazines. The information is out there for anyone who takes a minute to look for it. I think it's fair to say we are doing what we can to provide it for those who will take a moment to look. If they don't look, I'm sure that's also somehow our fault. It is always is. Sigh.

And that's why a lot of the breeders have abandoned these pages. There is always a newcomer like yourself to tell us it's our fault.
02-07-2019 01:46 PM
4x4bike ped Hi Moos.

You may not realize this, but the general consensus is that floppy ears in some dogs (and other domesticated animals) is an unwanted result of domestication. Charles Darwin was the first propose this in publication. It is often referred to as "Domestication Syndrome"

For your reading, a very simplistic overview:

https://www.sciencealert.com/science...ation-syndrome

So... I suppose that if one wanted to, one could refer to floppy ears as "unnatural".

I don't, but sill... The argument could be made!

John
Portland OR
02-07-2019 01:15 PM
Moos
Quote:
Originally Posted by MaryAndDobes View Post
The BYBs are always going to be there. They aren't offering the same thing. If people want to accept (and support) less, again, that's on them.
Well it's not just on them. It's on the community, bc the average person can't tell a BYB from a healthy, good tempered dobe. A poorly bred, poorly raised Doberman reflects poorly on the breed as a whole. Who's being egocentric?
02-07-2019 01:04 PM
MaryAndDobes
Quote:
Originally Posted by Moos View Post
Well, my understanding was that Dobermans have a longer, thinner tail set high that makes it more prone to injury than some other breeds. If this is true, I find it justified. Also, I think it would definitely be a difficult request of a breeder, bc docking occurs so early on, whereas ear cropping takes place later on.
But both are traditionally done for the same historical reason - less for the bad guy to grab them by.

I personally don't think the Doberman's tail is any thinner or more prone to injury than most breeds.

I personally think that both surgeries are more aptly described as cosmetic these days, and I'm fine with that.
02-07-2019 12:28 PM
Moos Well, my understanding was that Dobermans have a longer, thinner tail set high that makes it more prone to injury than some other breeds. If this is true, I find it justified. Also, I think it would definitely be a difficult request of a breeder, bc docking occurs so early on, whereas ear cropping takes place later on.
02-07-2019 12:17 PM
MaryAndDobes
Quote:
Originally Posted by Moos View Post
You don't think this exclusivity creates an unnecessary barrier and ultimately a market for the BYB's?
No, I don't.

The BYBs are always going to be there. They aren't offering the same thing. If people want to accept (and support) less, again, that's on them.

There is no barrier in my mind. The barrier seems to be in yours. You don't want to accept what we're doing, creating your own barrier. It also makes no sense to me to get all up in arms about ears while accepting tail docking.
02-07-2019 12:10 PM
greenkouki
Quote:
Originally Posted by Moos View Post
You don't think this exclusivity creates an unnecessary barrier and ultimately a market for the BYB's? I didn't write the standard, and I certainly don't get it. It just baffles me that folks would hold so strongly to something that wasn't natural or inherent to the animal.
Purebred dogs are man made so you could apply that belief to all purebred dogs too. I'm sorry you don't see eye to eye on the "issue" (If you can even call it that). Again, good luck. As determined as you seem you will find a natural puppy one way or another
02-07-2019 12:03 PM
Moos
Quote:
Originally Posted by MaryAndDobes View Post
This argument always makes me crazy. As a breeder, I don't sell my puppies to less responsible people just because you weren't available as a home to one. It's pretty egocentric of you to think that. I'm not pushing people to do anything that they don't want to do. I offer what I offer, and if they don't like it, what they choose to do is on them, not me. *If* I'm the one producing long-lived, healthy dogs and you choose not to come to me because of the ears and if you choose to go to an irresponsible breeder because of the ears, I think you're the one that was just detrimental to the breed, not me. I'm the one that supported health and longevity, not you.
You don't think this exclusivity creates an unnecessary barrier and ultimately a market for the BYB's? I didn't write the standard, and I certainly don't get it. It just baffles me that folks would hold so strongly to something that wasn't natural or inherent to the animal.
02-07-2019 11:31 AM
MaryAndDobes
Quote:
Originally Posted by Moos View Post
the Doberman community is very likely to miss out on responsible owners like myself that are looking for a dog bred for longevity and health. This would simultaneously push potential owners toward irresponsible breeders that are cheaper and more eager to please.
This argument always makes me crazy. As a breeder, I don't sell my puppies to less responsible people just because you weren't available as a home to one. It's pretty egocentric of you to think that. I'm not pushing people to do anything that they don't want to do. I offer what I offer, and if they don't like it, what they choose to do is on them, not me. *If* I'm the one producing long-lived, healthy dogs and you choose not to come to me because of the ears and if you choose to go to an irresponsible breeder because of the ears, I think you're the one that was just detrimental to the breed, not me. I'm the one that supported health and longevity, not you.
02-07-2019 10:22 AM
greenkouki
Quote:
Originally Posted by Moos View Post
I appreciate the advice provided here. I have spoken to 10-15 breeders at different levels in the US (one of which was Kathy Daveid), but ultimately found some good prospects in Canada.

This debate though is concerning for the breed, as I think the fact that I have to expand my search internationally is a high level of effort to find a healthy dog. A result of this high LOE, the Doberman community is very likely to miss out on responsible owners like myself that are looking for a dog bred for longevity and health. This would simultaneously push potential owners toward irresponsible breeders that are cheaper and more eager to please. This whole debate is still confusing to me and I think it's an unintended detriment to the breed. A person's ability to cut and tape a dog's ears in a particular shape doesn't relate at all to the beauty and health of the dog and its pedigree. It's simply a human cosmetic preference.

As a prospective member of the Doberman community, I don't intend any offense. I am simply voicing my frustration with genuine concern. I can't understand how difficult it is to get a dog with its ears not cut up.
Sorry you're having a difficult time finding a breeder, but you are looking for something outside the norm- breeders have their reasons for not selling natural eared pups, and those reasons have been thoroughly explained earlier in the thread. Good luck with your search!
02-07-2019 09:47 AM
Moos I appreciate the advice provided here. I have spoken to 10-15 breeders at different levels in the US (one of which was Kathy Daveid), but ultimately found some good prospects in Canada.

This debate though is concerning for the breed, as I think the fact that I have to expand my search internationally is a high level of effort to find a healthy dog. A result of this high LOE, the Doberman community is very likely to miss out on responsible owners like myself that are looking for a dog bred for longevity and health. This would simultaneously push potential owners toward irresponsible breeders that are cheaper and more eager to please. This whole debate is still confusing to me and I think it's an unintended detriment to the breed. A person's ability to cut and tape a dog's ears in a particular shape doesn't relate at all to the beauty and health of the dog and its pedigree. It's simply a human cosmetic preference.

As a prospective member of the Doberman community, I don't intend any offense. I am simply voicing my frustration with genuine concern. I can't understand how difficult it is to get a dog with its ears not cut up.
02-07-2019 04:54 AM
falnfenix
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rosemary View Post
From what I understand, the "normally cropped" in the standard was supposed to mean "cropped in a normal fashion, not super-long and skinny", which is how most show crops are these days, and which was just coming into style when the standard was last updated. It was very poorly phrased, IMO, though, because it implies that while the ears are typically cropped, uncroppped ears should also be equally accepted.
Got it in one. The Illustrated Standard goes into more detail, but this is the intention as written.
02-06-2019 10:03 PM
4x4bike ped Hi DOGMAN....

Good response! You will find that this is a really friendly forum... We are friends helping our friends.

Most comments are funny, supportive, informative and helpful. Occasionally a bit acerbic. Oh Well...

John
Portland OR
02-06-2019 09:47 PM
DOGMAN45 Sorry, I wasn't trying to insult anyone. I was being a little sarcastic. Some seem to be implying that puppies from respectable breeders are available at a moments notice or at a whim. That is far from the truth. These breeders have long lines of hopeful Doberman owners in waiting. Prospective owners wait for months or years to get one of these pups. The owner has plenty of time to make the ear decision long before the pup is born. The breeder can have an opinion but the owner has the final say.
As far as the low life comment, I am a proud owner of natural ear Dobermans. Look at my logo. I made the comment because some seem to take offense with natural ear Dobermans. Statements such as "I assume they are from a BYB", or "The breeder is irresponsible to allow an owner to go with natural ears" are not true. I think cropped ears give a Doberman an intelligent and distinctive appearance. When I think of Dobermans, the picture is with cropped ears. The one I adopted years ago had natural ears. He was a fantastic companion who gave and received much love. I've since had a couple Doberman pups to raise as my own. I chose not to crop their ears. The breeders had a vet lined up to crop, but I chose not to. I would never criticize an owner for getting the ears cropped. I would like to think my natural ear Dobes get the same respect.
02-06-2019 09:43 PM
4x4bike ped What MC said^^^

I am not a moderator, so I have no sway except my experience and opinion.

So... I have owned Doberman dogs since 1974. My first boy was purchased not cropped. I was pretty young (21yo.) and ignorant with respect to the breed, although I had owned and been responsible for several dogs previously.

I was a very fortunate guy. I was steered to a vet who was a Doberman judge, a great DVM and probably one of the best "show" ear croppers in the PNW. His name was Jim Harrison. He became my mentor. Unfortunately, he passed in the mid 80's.

Oddly, McCoy's current canine cardiologist rememberers well. with great fondness.

So... to the point. This man loved Dobermans. He insisted that I posted my boy's ears because he felt that our interaction would result in the best "bonding" experience that the two of us could have.

Today, over 4 decades later, I am so grateful for his POV. It was true!

My youngest's DVM is very familiar with the Doberman breed and his POV is the same.

With my permission, Pretty much anyone can put their hands on him.

Perhaps I am obtuse, yet I don't think so.

I see no downside to cropping a Dobe's ears... Only an upside.

JMO
John
Portland OR
02-06-2019 08:55 PM
Rosemary From what I understand, the "normally cropped" in the standard was supposed to mean "cropped in a normal fashion, not super-long and skinny", which is how most show crops are these days, and which was just coming into style when the standard was last updated. It was very poorly phrased, IMO, though, because it implies that while the ears are typically cropped, uncroppped ears should also be equally accepted.

These days, most breeds that are traditionally cropped have descriptions of natural ear written into their standards, and say that cropped and natural ears are both acceptable, even if a dog with cropped ears is preferred over an uncropped one, all other qualities being equal.

I've pretty much resigned myself to the fact that I'm never going to get my dream dog, a well bred, all-natural blue. If I want well bred, then all natural and blue are almost automatically eliminated.
02-06-2019 07:58 PM
MeadowCat
Quote:
Originally Posted by DOGMAN45 View Post
Doberman ears are not cropped for health reasons. The ears were originally cropped as part of a working dog's job. Cropped ears are less likely to be injured in a fight.
Judging from the advice you are getting from this site you would have to be some kind of low life to even to think about owning a Doberman with natural ears. If you do not plan to show your Doberman I don't see why a breeder would insist on cropped ear. All the reputable breeders being talked about would have you set up well in advance of the puppy's birth. You should have the choice of cropped or natural ears.
No one here implied that at all, and insults to the members of this forum are not welcome. Please take a moment to read the forum rules: https://www.dobermantalk.com/ear-cro...st-5-2011.html

Everyone here has done a good job of explaining why breeders in this country crop their dogs, as well as offering help for the OP in seeking an uncropped puppy, if that is what the OP wants. Being realistic about the difficulties in finding a well-bred, uncropped puppy is not insulting the buyer's desire for one. It is simply a fact that in THIS country, nearly all well-bred Dobermans have cropped ears.

(Putting on moderator hat) - We have had numerous cropping debates on this forum, and we are NOT going to have a heated debate on that topic again. Feel free to use the search function if you want to read old posts. Consider this fair warning. The forum rules have been linked, and we expect people to adhere to them. (Moderator hat off)
02-06-2019 07:20 PM
4x4bike ped
Quote:
Originally Posted by Coco Loco View Post
Count me into the low life club then because I would totally have another uncropped dobe.

For me the ears do not make the dog. Coco's spirit and joy she brought to her family were infinitely more important than her ears were.
Yeah Coco... I'm not sure where Dogman is coming from. Many members on DT have Dobes with natural (uncropped) ears.

I also would have no problem with natural eared Doberman, even though I prefer the look of a nice crop. The deal, however, is that pretty much every breeder that I would consider, sends the pups to their new home with docked tails, dewclaws removed and ears cropped.

There are variety of very practical reasons for that which I will not go into. Perhaps someone else will chime in and explain to DM why this is the norm.

John
Portland OR
02-06-2019 07:09 PM
Coco Loco Count me into the low life club then because I would totally have another uncropped dobe.

For me the ears do not make the dog. Coco's spirit and joy she brought to her family were infinitely more important than her ears were.
02-06-2019 06:50 PM
DOGMAN45
Cropped ears

Doberman ears are not cropped for health reasons. The ears were originally cropped as part of a working dog's job. Cropped ears are less likely to be injured in a fight.
Judging from the advice you are getting from this site you would have to be some kind of low life to even to think about owning a Doberman with natural ears. If you do not plan to show your Doberman I don't see why a breeder would insist on cropped ear. All the reputable breeders being talked about would have you set up well in advance of the puppy's birth. You should have the choice of cropped or natural ears.
02-06-2019 05:54 PM
Coco Loco I had a natural eared gal for almost 10 years. She was from a byb before we knew better. I loved those soft velvetty ears and miss rubbing them immensely. This time I am getting a puppy that will be cropped while still at his breeders. It is the breed standard and his breeder plans to show him so he will be cropped. (What a trip for me going from an oversized byb lovey to a potential show prospect).

I would not have been opposed to another natural eared dobe but this time around will be different. I also didn't want him to remind me too much of Coco (bear with me I'm still grieving the loss).

But I have to comment on the natural ears are more prone to infection. Not once in Cocos almost 10 years of life did she ever have an ear infection. I never cleaned those ears and she probably had less than 10 baths in her life. I stroked, cuddled, kissed and smelled those ears her whole life and they were always perfect!! That notion was a myth in our life together.

Sometimes puppies are born into rescue so that could be an option. I understand wanting a puppy to grow with your family. You have children so you have to do what is right for you. I have a 17 year old cat who lived with Coco for 10 years so she is not afraid of dobes. This is why I am getting a puppy.
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