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  Topic Review (Newest First)
12-15-2017 11:51 AM
BudnHouston Pic of Jefe on his 5 month birthday, and after 12 days of posting using Dobewankanobi help. Ears look great. Still need a little more shaping, but so much better. I believe the pocket is gone. Hard for me to exactly tell, since I could never see it to begin with, but Dobewan could. We're pretty happy campers right now. Jefe's a very smart dog, and we have high hopes for him as a service dog.
12-03-2017 11:35 AM
BudnHouston Thanks so much to Dobewankanobi for meeting me yesterday at the Conroe AKC dog show. She was very helpful showing me what I was doing wrong on Jefe's posts. Basically, not getting the post entirely to the bottom, not pulling up enough on the ear, and taping lower than I had been. She found and identified a pocket on his right ear. Showed my how to correct and eased my fears. She also confirmed that only one testicle had dropped, and the other is a long way back in the "canal", not likely to drop. (I can deal with that, but would like to be compensated for the extra cost) It was so nice to have some help. My wife and I VERY much appreciated Dobewankanobi taking the time to help us. I'm optimistic now that Jefe's ears will be fine.
12-01-2017 10:13 AM
BudnHouston
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dobiewankanobi View Post
OK. Looking at the photos you posted yesterday I'm going to make a suggestion you might consider trying.

Measure your posts to the ear like you're doing. Tape a 1 inch piece of half backer rod (the bumper) approximately 1 and 1/2 inches from the very bottom of the post. Back Wrap the entire post (all the way to the bottom) in zonas tape. THEN, taper the end of the post. Almost like the sharp end of a pencil. I usually just back wrap tape over the exposed end or you could put cotton. Whatever you prefer. But smash the tape down on the tapered end so it retains the tapered shape. I wouldn't use a bridge with backer rod on a pup I suspected was having a pocket issue.

"I've been placing the bumper bottom at 1.5" from the bottom tip. Since it didn't appear to be helping, I lowered in just a little this time. I haven't been using as extreme a taper as you suggest. I've been just nipping off the edges at the bottom. I have been worrying that the post weren't going all the way to bottom, even though I do twist and push down until it feels like they're bottomed out. I've stopped using the bridge, for now."

Sometimes, even when you're pulling up on the ear really well, the post simply isn't in far enough to the ear canal. The tapering will allow you to get it in to the very bottom. The bumper part will actually be placed up against the skull. Then tape bottom up while pulling the ear up tight. I mean really tight. You can't hurt the pup by pulling ears up to post.

"I may be wrong, but it sure looks and feels like the post and bumper are placed right. I pull up on the ear until he starts to squeal."
I'm not sure if I don't have two issues rather than one. Yes, the right ear flops towards the center. That may only be due to the cartilage not being stiff enough yet. He is only 4.5 months. Another BIG concern is that the ear tips come together, even when there is no bend in the ear. It looks, to me, like they're shaped wrong. This only happens on a "strong" alert, or when he lowers his head to sniff the ground. Sorry, but I hate that look. (pic attached)
11-30-2017 02:16 PM
Dobiewankanobi I think maybe MeadowCat was asking simply because most of us that are in your area could probably easily get a hold of your breeder.
11-30-2017 02:14 PM
Dobiewankanobi
Quote:
Originally Posted by BudnHouston View Post
Jefe was born 7/11. He'll be 5 months soon. Large pup. He already weighs 57 lbs.

She used, and I've always used backer rod. I started with 3/8, then 1/2, now 5/8". Then one wrap lengthwise with duct tape, then one wrap with Zonas sticky down, one wrap sticky up. Adding the 1/2 bumper at skull/ear intersection. Wrapping the bottom first after making sure post is all the way down, and ear pulled up as far as I can, then the tip, then one light wrap of vet wrap around to middle to hold everything in place. When posted the ears are at 10 and 2. On alert, with post, the ears are straight up and down. When sniffing around, with post, the right ear and sometimes the left too, move in and almost touch at the tips.

That's the same method as the breeder, except she used paper tape first to keep the Zonas from pulling hair. I use an adhesive remover before I pull the tape off.

I only used the bridge for one post. I am considering trying it again.
OK. Looking at the photos you posted yesterday I'm going to make a suggestion you might consider trying.

Measure your posts to the ear like you're doing. Tape a 1 inch piece of half backer rod (the bumper) approximately 1 and 1/2 inches from the very bottom of the post. Back Wrap the entire post (all the way to the bottom) in zonas tape. THEN, taper the end of the post. Almost like the sharp end of a pencil. I usually just back wrap tape over the exposed end or you could put cotton. Whatever you prefer. But smash the tape down on the tapered end so it retains the tapered shape. I wouldn't use a bridge with backer rod on a pup I suspected was having a pocket issue.

Sometimes, even when you're pulling up on the ear really well, the post simply isn't in far enough to the ear canal. The tapering will allow you to get it in to the very bottom. The bumper part will actually be placed up against the skull. Then tape bottom up while pulling the ear up tight. I mean really tight. You can't hurt the pup by pulling ears up to post.
11-30-2017 12:06 PM
BudnHouston Sorry, Meadowcat, I don't want to bash someone, at least not before I know all the facts. She may have a reason for not communicating. Jefe may still come around. His testicle could still drop, and his ears may turn out fine. He's only 4.5 months, and I may just be obsessing. I probably wouldn't have written the first post if only the breeder had communicated with me. That's one of my pet peeves about people. Not answering, not communicating. I was in sales for 40 years. Not once did I not return a call, text, whatever. To me, there's not such thing as too busy. It takes less than 15 seconds to minimally respond to almost anything. I'm still optimistic about Jefe. He's a very smart and energetic puppy. We love him. No matter what we'll give him all the love and training possible. There's still a good chance, with yours and others help, that his ears will be fine. His testicle may still drop, and if it doesn't, we'll pay a few hundred extra to neuter him at 18 months. We liked our breeder when we met. We wouldn't have bought from her if we didn't. I'm irritated, but still reserving judgement. All may turn out fine. We hope...
11-30-2017 11:30 AM
MeadowCat
Quote:
Originally Posted by BudnHouston View Post
I'm trying to repost faster. Yes, I've been allowing them to dry for a couple hours. Once overnight. NO MORE. Once they're out, i'll have them back up with the hour.

BTW, still no help from the breeder. She's vanished. I'm trying to remain positive. Maybe she's just very busy with her day job. I'm still hopeful that she'll resurface and be of help. BTW, I definitely plan to ask for a partial refund due to the one testicle, and if I ever find that the ear issue is due to a bad cut, then i'll be asking for my money back.

Thanks
Would you care to share who the breeder is?
11-30-2017 11:27 AM
BudnHouston I'm trying to repost faster. Yes, I've been allowing them to dry for a couple hours. Once overnight. NO MORE. Once they're out, i'll have them back up with the hour.

BTW, still no help from the breeder. She's vanished. I'm trying to remain positive. Maybe she's just very busy with her day job. I'm still hopeful that she'll resurface and be of help. BTW, I definitely plan to ask for a partial refund due to the one testicle, and if I ever find that the ear issue is due to a bad cut, then i'll be asking for my money back.

Thanks
11-30-2017 11:20 AM
BudnHouston
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dobiewankanobi View Post
OK.
I can see most of what you're talking about. First off, they aren't really asymmetrical in my opinion. I think what you're not liking is the thick extra cartilage left in at the base of the ear. You're used to a smooth transition there. I know Cambria removes that cartilage at crop. I specifically request it as well. Some people don't on pet crops because the ear usually stands easier since it has such a wide base.

Secondly, where that ear is flipping over the top of his head, just right at that "break" is where the pocket is starting. They can't flip over like that if they don't have a pocket. If it were a true break it would actually fall away from the head. So IMO that's a pocket.

I'm a fan of bridges where necessary, but that really really depends on someone sticking with a particular method. For backer rod, I rarely use it. How old is he now? What method does your breeder prefer be used with her crops?
Jefe was born 7/11. He'll be 5 months soon. Large pup. He already weighs 57 lbs.

She used, and I've always used backer rod. I started with 3/8, then 1/2, now 5/8". Then one wrap lengthwise with duct tape, then one wrap with Zonas sticky down, one wrap sticky up. Adding the 1/2 bumper at skull/ear intersection. Wrapping the bottom first after making sure post is all the way down, and ear pulled up as far as I can, then the tip, then one light wrap of vet wrap around to middle to hold everything in place. When posted the ears are at 10 and 2. On alert, with post, the ears are straight up and down. When sniffing around, with post, the right ear and sometimes the left too, move in and almost touch at the tips.

That's the same method as the breeder, except she used paper tape first to keep the Zonas from pulling hair. I use an adhesive remover before I pull the tape off.

I only used the bridge for one post. I am considering trying it again.
11-30-2017 10:58 AM
BudnHouston
Quote:
Originally Posted by dobebug View Post
Bud,

I swore I not going to try to help you further with the ears. But against my own better judgement I am going to try once more.

First of all I'd suggest that you either make arrangements to take Jefe to the breeder and see what she would suggest. Or take Jefe to the vet who did the crop and see what the ve would suggest.

"Difficult to do when they won't return phone calls, texts, emails, message box is always full. I have no idea of the vet that was used. I would have loved to have the forever support promised, but it just hasn't been there. It's a 3 hour drive each way. Not practical to go when I don't even know she's in town."

But if you can't or won't do that you are welcome to read this and try anything that I've suggested.

About the post--how exactly are you positioning those "bumpers"? You shouldn't need two and it looks like you have them taped to the post "up" the post. A bumper should lie "across" the post and don't tape it to the post.

"I've never seen any pics of a bumper going "across" the post. Always up and down. I'm taping and posting exactly as in so many tutorials on this site and others."

Don't put it in by measuring. Make the post. Make a bumper (a one inch piece of the backer rod split in two) you are only going to use 1/2 of it.

"That's what i'm doing."

Put the post in the ear--look at the 4th picture with the right ear folding over the top of his head--stick the bumper to the back taped post at exactly where the ear is folded.

"That's what i'm doing, except I measure first and tape the bumper to the post. I didn't with the cotton. That I placed in at the skull/ear join where the bend is located"

Press the ear against the post and put in the bottom wrap of tape. If I were doing this I'd also put an additional wrap of tape where the bumper sits. Finish the taping. Don't put vet wrap on it--it just adds weight.

"The vet wrap weighs next to nothing. Don't see how it could be an issue. It does help hold everything in place. I'm using a very light wrap with the Zonas to not interfere with circulation"

Before you start all this (if you do) look at that 4th picture--see that fold? If you stick your finger on the fold (on the inside of the ear leather) and push, does the ear pop up straight?

"Of course it does"

If it does you are looking at a pocket and just because you didn't recognize it as a pocket doesn't make it any less of one. Generally if you have an ear that folds that high up on the leather we just refer to it as a fold. But it's all part of terminology--and one of the reasons that having someone help you with it who is there and can see it and adjust the posting to fix it works better than trying to figure out if we (you and whoever is trying to help you without being there in person) if we are both talking about the same thing. So many times while you've been posting Jefe and asking about things you are talking about apples and the person trying to help is talking about oranges.

"Well, nobody is personally helping me. Only members of this site, and I've tried to follow the advise given. Just frustrated that nothing seems to be working."


Make sure that both ears tip out at 10 and 2. If you need a bridge to keep them in that position--use one but put it down at head level--not half way up the post and definitely not at the top of the posts. And if the left ear is not folding like the right, don't use a bumper in the left ear.

"I adjusted the bridge to be lower, just above the skull. I got a little worried after so many comments, plus my wife, worrying about it getting hung up and injuring the ears. I removed it, for now."


I don't use bridges at this stage of posting but they are really optional--with a bridge in place on Jefe he'll be able to pull his ears to a more upright position when he is entirely alert--this is normal, even with a bridge in place--but it's why you just use tape and not rigid material to make the bridge.

"His ear muscles are so strong, he just bends any tape bridge. Look at the wrinkles in his brow. I don't remember our last puppy having wrinkles like that."

The other thing you really need to keep in mind is that this is a very young puppy and that his crop may not be as long as Uno's crop but it is still a long crop and since the right ear clearly has a place where the cartilage is not strong it will probably take a longer period of posting before it is standing to your satisfaction.

"The whole thing could be just that. Maybe i'm just impatient. The cartilage just hasn't had time to get strong enough. I do obsess over ears. Seeing that tilt drives me nuts."
Thanks for your help. Please know that I consider all the advice given on this site. I appreciate the help. It's only my second pup. Ears are such a reflection of a Dobe. I want badly for Jefe's to be the best they can.
11-29-2017 05:55 PM
Cressrb Is your breeder giving your support right now in this?
11-29-2017 05:50 PM
Dobiewankanobi OK.
I can see most of what you're talking about. First off, they aren't really asymmetrical in my opinion. I think what you're not liking is the thick extra cartilage left in at the base of the ear. You're used to a smooth transition there. I know Cambria removes that cartilage at crop. I specifically request it as well. Some people don't on pet crops because the ear usually stands easier since it has such a wide base.

Secondly, where that ear is flipping over the top of his head, just right at that "break" is where the pocket is starting. They can't flip over like that if they don't have a pocket. If it were a true break it would actually fall away from the head. So IMO that's a pocket.

I'm a fan of bridges where necessary, but that really really depends on someone sticking with a particular method. For backer rod, I rarely use it. How old is he now? What method does your breeder prefer be used with her crops?
11-29-2017 05:09 PM
melbrod You should not be taking them out of posts long enough to let them flop. Try not to give into the temptation to “see if they are standing.” Put his ears back up in posts within 1/2 hour of the time you remove the old posts. Let them dry out for a little while and then....back in posts. Under the best of conditions, you should not expect his ears to stand until he has finished teething--which is somewhere around 6-7 months old.
11-29-2017 04:47 PM
dobebug Bud,

I swore I not going to try to help you further with the ears. But against my own better judgement I am going to try once more.

First of all I'd suggest that you either make arrangements to take Jefe to the breeder and see what she would suggest. Or take Jefe to the vet who did the crop and see what the ve would suggest.

But if you can't or won't do that you are welcome to read this and try anything that I've suggested.

About the post--how exactly are you positioning those "bumpers"? You shouldn't need two and it looks like you have them taped to the post "up" the post. A bumper should lie "across" the post and don't tape it to the post. Don't put it in by measuring. Make the post. Make a bumper (a one inch piece of the backer rod split in two) you are only going to use 1/2 of it. Put the post in the ear--look at the 4th picture with the right ear folding over the top of his head--stick the bumper to the back taped post at exactly where the ear is folded. Press the ear against the post and put in the bottom wrap of tape. If I were doing this I'd also put an additional wrap of tape where the bumper sits. Finish the taping. Don't put vet wrap on it--it just adds weight.

Before you start all this (if you do) look at that 4th picture--see that fold? If you stick your finger on the fold (on the inside of the ear leather) and push, does the ear pop up straight? If it does you are looking at a pocket and just because you didn't recognize it as a pocket doesn't make it any less of one. Generally if you have an ear that folds that high up on the leather we just refer to it as a fold. But it's all part of terminology--and one of the reasons that having someone help you with it who is there and can see it and adjust the posting to fix it works better than trying to figure out if we (you and whoever is trying to help you without being there in person) if we are both talking about the same thing. So many times while you've been posting Jefe and asking about things you are talking about apples and the person trying to help is talking about oranges.

Make sure that both ears tip out at 10 and 2. If you need a bridge to keep them in that position--use one but put it down at head level--not half way up the post and definitely not at the top of the posts. And if the left ear is not folding like the right, don't use a bumper in the left ear.

I don't use bridges at this stage of posting but they are really optional--with a bridge in place on Jefe he'll be able to pull his ears to a more upright position when he is entirely alert--this is normal, even with a bridge in place--but it's why you just use tape and not rigid material to make the bridge.

The other thing you really need to keep in mind is that this is a very young puppy and that his crop may not be as long as Uno's crop but it is still a long crop and since the right ear clearly has a place where the cartilage is not strong it will probably take a longer period of posting before it is standing to your satisfaction.
11-29-2017 12:09 PM
BudnHouston Took ears down for repost this morning. Fresh pics. Even though I have tried several different methods, the right ear is still flopping badly. (some of the time) I've used cotton and backer rod as extra bumpers for ear pockets. TBH, I still don't see any pockets, but i'm continuing to use bumpers. As you can see from the pics, thefirst pic is in the house not too long after taking them down. They look fairly straight to me. But, if I take him out on a walk, he goes to strong alert, or lowers his head, the tips come completely together.The second pic is him on alert with the ears not touching, but IMO too close together.The third pic is a close up of his ears from behind. If you see a pocket, please try to circle it.The fourth pic is showing the right ear flopped over to center.Fifth pic is of the post I'm using. I have 2 half cut pieces of 5/8 rod as a bumper. I lowered where I usually put them to about 1.25" from the bottom. Usually, I put the bumper at about 1.5 to 1.75 above the bottom. My pup is 4.5 months, and i'm completely frustrated with getting this right.
11-23-2017 02:39 PM
Cressrb Looks llike you did a good job.
Poor Jefe, he looks so worried, like, am I holding them right this time?
11-23-2017 01:35 PM
4x4bike ped Hi Bud....

I am one of the rare folks here ( I believe) who braces for most of a pup's posting. I never recommend it because it is not a totally accepted practice. I do it because I like to control the angle of the ears. BTW, Jefe's posting angle looks great to me.

However, I really think that you have the brace up too high on the ears. Up high, it is too easy to get hung up. It also adds weight to the top of the posts. Me...I would drop the brace down very close to the skull. Just as effective, but much safer.

Also, you will probably get some naysayers here explaining why they don't believe bracing is a good idea. I would give their comment good consideration. It is becoming less of a common practice.

John
Portland OR
11-23-2017 01:11 PM
BudnHouston Trying this. See if it holds with his shaking.
11-23-2017 09:31 AM
BudnHouston Yes, our dog Jefe came cropped and docked. Don't know the vets name, but breeder used them on all her dogs.

Left Jefe's ears down for almost 2 days per suggestion of breeder to let muscles relax. Right ear starting to flop, put them back up. This time making SURE the post was at the bottom of ear canal, pulled the ear as far as possible to the top, taped the bottom first, then the top, then the middle. Basically the same thing I've been doing, but I was taping the top first. Personally, don't see much difference in which end you tape first. Once the ear is extended, and stuck to the backer rod, as long as you're holding everything in place there's no movement up and down the post.

I was disappointed in the ears while down. Most of the time they looked fine. No matter how closely I looked I could see no evidence of a pocket. BUT, the ear tips still come together, sometimes. When he lowers his head, strong alert, turns his ears with the pocket facing out. It's mostly the right ear causing the problem. Looking at the ears it doesn't seem to be forming right. (pic attached) I'm still concerned that the asymmetrical cut is causing the problem. Basically driving me nuts that I can't figure out and solve this problem. 4mo2wks old. I don't want to be a one year poster.
11-21-2017 05:17 PM
Dobiewankanobi
Quote:
Originally Posted by BudnHouston View Post
Thanks. Your method? Yes, I would have used the same vet as Cambria if i'd had the choice. Pups were already cropped and docked when I first saw them. Besides, I believe that vet moved to Montana, and is no longer doing crops except for special customers. She was a true artist, IMO.
Oh they haven't used Ann Platt in a very long time. Though she's always lived in Montana. They had been going to Midgarden I believe.

Your current pup wasn't already cropped/docked?
11-21-2017 04:33 PM
MeadowCat I don't think 12 months of posting is necessarily totally uncommon these days with some crops. Sypha had one ear that had to be posted until close to 11 months old.
11-20-2017 11:05 PM
BudnHouston Congrats. You sure have patience. 12 months is a LOT. Your issue was clearly pockets, or dimples. My problem is not so easy to see. There have never been any clear inward breaks on the skull side of the ear. It looks normal, at least to me. And, my dogs ears stand fine, for a while. Then when he lowers his head, or goes on a strong alert, the tips touch. Even then the base of the ear near the skull never breaks over. The ears just close at the top and touch ear other. Look at the pic on Post 25 in this string. You'll see how my problem is different from yours. Thanks, happy you were able to do so well with your dog. He looks great.
11-20-2017 07:20 PM
thebrie My guy had HORRIBLE pockets or ?dimples? as the vet refered to them. He showed me how to tape them at the base so they went straight out like Yoda and his ears look great now. I used the tubular foam insulation and put it way deep in his canal. Then used nonstick surgical tape to wrap them so they went straight out. It did take a long time. I was still posting at 10-11 months. Worth the hassle tho because his ears stand perfectly.
11-20-2017 01:17 PM
BudnHouston Thanks. Your method? Yes, I would have used the same vet as Cambria if i'd had the choice. Pups were already cropped and docked when I first saw them. Besides, I believe that vet moved to Montana, and is no longer doing crops except for special customers. She was a true artist, IMO.
11-20-2017 01:11 PM
BudnHouston Thanks, but that's not exactly what i'm doing. I do twist to make sure the post is at the bottom of the ear. I don't think that's a problem. Once I have the post at the bottom of the ear, I extend the ear, align the outside straight, stick the ear to the sticky side Zonas tape, then I take 2 wraps around the tip. While still holding everything in place, I then take 2 or 3 wraps around the base wrapping so the flap folds back normally. Very light pressure with both tip and base. Then, if all looks well, I squeeze everything tight so it holds. After that I use a 6" piece of 3" vet wrap, which is VERY porous, loosely wrap around the middle, then squeeze that tight. That is basically the method that is "sticky" in this forum. It's also the exact same method I used with my first Dobes very long show cut ears, and it worked perfectly. Personally, I like the vet wrap. It allows a lot more air than the Zonas, doesn't pull the hair, and it's lighter. I'm watching his ears very closely while posted, I just don't see any slippage downward. I appreciate what you're saying, but just not agreeing with your thoughts about vet wrap and downward creep.

My breeder still hasn't called me, but she did write a small email suggesting that I take the ears down for a couple days. Let the ear muscles relax, then repost. I think she might be onto something. He tightens his ear muscles between his ears so much that he has 4 or 5 wrinkles between the ears at strong alert. (Pic attached) Still waiting to talk to her. She's travelling on business.
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