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  Topic Review (Newest First)
02-11-2015 09:23 AM
dobermansrule oh, fun stuff. I miss out on all this not being on here much anymore But reading through this mess, I guess by definition (this thread), my dobe (may he RIP) was from a backyard breeder too. He was from untitled parents, a convenience litter, totally undeserving of any royal dobeship. We had our own moment of hubris and thought gee, we have a Doberman, let's show him and pretend he is of lineage. and we were swatted down, handed our lunch, and sent back to whence we came. But we came to accept our humble position, love our dog for who he was, and live our lives. Just because they are backyard bred doesn't mean they aren't good, loyal Dobermans and ambassadors of the breed. What we learned is just don't try to be more than you really are and live the life you want to live with your dobe, not what the Doberman community says you should do (or not). Live and learn, we do all.
01-11-2015 12:25 AM
frznbuns
Quote:
Originally Posted by StrykersPerson View Post
frznbuns,

Are you the same one that had an issue with size? In a motel? We already told you size doesn't matter when taking a dog into a motel.
I am not sure?! But I have been to a motel(Private hotel not a chain) with my boy Spirit and been turned away because they did not allow dogs over 15lbs. I told them he was my assistance dog and rather than get into a whole fight. I just went to another motel.
01-11-2015 12:22 AM
frznbuns first I do not believe in breeding Albino's of any breed! That is the reason she is a rescue and NOT Bought. I wish you could see her coat better in photos. She is Cream with white markings. and yes I know that I could have gotten her DNA tested to see what colors she has in her. But for what reason. She is Spay, we had her spay before we even took her home. Next I know the difference between a Therapy dog and an Assistance dog. I have had 2 prior Assistance dogs for my disability. Spirit and Raven also had their Therapy Certif. enough said.
01-10-2015 07:44 PM
mommyblaze3 Why?

Mods don't go around closing threads just because there is some whining and stupidity on them--they'd never get anything else done

[/QUOTE]

Very true, very true.
I just want to say, I love you.
01-10-2015 07:37 PM
RedFawnRising
Quote:
Originally Posted by frznbuns View Post
We were going to show Raven (our first Doberman) but after her blood test and DNA test we found out that she was a high Carrier of VwD and was then spay. like I said I wanted to show Spirit( our second Doberman) but after trying with a handler, trainer, we decided that his marking next to the front of his nose was too dark, so we went for Working. he was my first Therapy and Assistance dog. Again, We started Agility with Spirit, but with my handicaps we had to do it just for fun. He also had some Protection training but I was not interested in an IPO because he was for Therapy and Assistance for my disability. Gypsy was the one who lost or cracked 4 teeth as a puppy. She was my other Therapy dog.
I have been trying to show for several years and now I am going to try with Senshi. if he does well then good if not then no big deal. He is still going to be trained in Therapy and Assistance for me.
Like I said before, Doberman's were created as a working breed but I don't have a problem with people using them to show either. I think it is up to the owner to decide.
Bold, mine.

If you are going to represent your Doberman as your service dog, please do some reading up on the difference between a medical assistance dog (with whom you have legal access under ADA) and a therapy dog (with whom you do NOT have legal access under ADA).

You may think words don't matter--as you blew off the person who nicely explained to you why it DOES matter how you present and describe your Albino Doberman--but those words DO matter.

For those of us who partner with service dogs, every person out there giving out misinformation and inaccurate terms makes our daily access issues that much more difficult.

I hope you're working hard towards accepted minimum behavior standards, as well, that you plan to have a good ortho eval done on him prior to starting him in any physical assistance work, if that's planned--and that you brush up on your ADA code, because public perception and education begins with every single service dog team encountered.

The way you interchangeably use the terms "assistance" and "therapy" repeatedly on this thread tells me you don't have enough knowledge about this all under your belt, and I hope you have access to good resources to work on that.


Quote:
Originally Posted by frznbuns View Post
Thank you for your KIND words. I joined this site when it first was formed. I joined to talk about Dobermans with others who love the breed as much as I do. I would tell everyone I knew who had a Doberman about this site. Now I just don't know.
Thank you again!!!!!!!
I have TWO Dobermans now, Yuki my rescue Albino (CREAM And WHITE COLORED ) Girl we got from Ohio Doberman Rescue and now my new Service in training Puppy Senshi (black and tan). He has just had his ears cropped BY MY VET(as I didn't like the breeders Vet ear cropping technic or style) plus he is battling an UTI, he starts puppy classes in about 4 weeks. We have already started basic training. He comes on command, sits, walks on a leash, loads in the car GREAT,and sits to great people without jumping on them and is potty trained for pooping. he will pee outside on command but with his UTI we have to watch him in the house because he goes about every half hour. I think for a 10week 2 day old puppy I think that is GREAT!!
Again thank you
It bothers me that you'd label a nasty post such as the one to which you're referring as "KIND."

Frankly, the post read like a sock puppet post to me, anyway.

Oh, and once again, Albino Dobermans do actually have a color--but it is not, repeat not, "cream and white."

Your girl is actually either black, red, fawn, or blue. You could have her tested, to find out--did you know that?

The albino gene is just keeping her real color from being expressed, so she displays a lack of color.

And yes, it matters.

It matters because every single ignorant byb and greeder out there who wants to keep this deleterious genetic mutation going refers to these animals as "Cream and White."

If those are the birds with whom you wish to be "of a feather," well, that's unfortunate. That's how you make yourself sound, when you use their terminology, though.



Quote:
Originally Posted by mommyblaze3 View Post
Mods, can we just close this thread?
Why?

Mods don't go around closing threads just because there is some whining and stupidity on them--they'd never get anything else done

There's good information on here--and more importantly--the misinformation that frznbuns is posting is being corrected with accurate facts.



01-10-2015 09:51 AM
selbys poppa OMG. Wow. This is my first post and I can not refrain.....sorry in advance.

Been lurking for a few months now. I haven't picked up my Doberman yet, she comes to us the end of this month. First, I want to say thanks for this site. It has been a huge resource. Most of the info is a refresher for me, not new to the breed. Great place for information.

I am not new to forums. Served as a mod and senior member of a car forum. That being said I am appalled by SOME of the members here. Truly. What if the OP is an elderly woman? That's the sense I'm getting. My grandfather bred Dobermans in the 60's and 70's and if you were to come to him with questions about DNA testing he would have looked at you silly. He was a successful engineer and studied genetics back in his hey day. I wish he were still alive so I could direct him here. He would have hunted and pecked his way to some truly epic posts about the direction some people are pushing this breed. That's a separate issue though. Back on task.

Some of you seem to have absolutely no home training. To absolutely lambast this woman about her breeding practices a decade plus ago when some of you have dogs that came from breedings of untested, untitled animals is maddening and beyond ridiculous. You should be ashamed of yourselves and you know who you are. And to hide your deplorable behavior behind the guise of being stewards of the breed is even more disgusting. Giving this woman a hard time about how she refers to the color of her dog?? Giving her a hard time about her stated reasons for not wanting to show or breed HER animals?? All she said was hello.

To the OP, welcome back to YOUR forum. The one which you seemingly helped build long ago. So sorry that the torch was passed to some awful human beings. To the mods of this forum....another WOW, all caps for added emphasis. You let this behavior go on? What if this was your grandmother? There is nothing wrong with the questions posed, but the manner in which they are being asked would be embarrassing to me and SHOULD be embarrassing to you. The tenacity with which some of your members attack folks is truly Doberman-esque, well done on that front I guess. But, we are humans. And this woman your attacking is human. Have some compassion for a woman that has lost her animals, rescued a dog that some of you would seemingly throw away, and is excited about a new puppy directly descended from a previous dog of hers. The OP continually stated that showing was something she always wanted to try out. Seemingly for fun or the experience of it. She said she was unsure about the future, in regards to breeding her new pup. Lay off this lady would you? Geesh.

I know, heck of a first post. Its just upsetting to see how some people are treated. Sickening actually. Thanks for all the great info. Back to lurking.

P.S.....lots of you seem wonderful. Very helpful, nice, endearing. I do not wish to lump you all together. Not my intent. I think my intent is clear, but I realize things get lost in translation on a web forum. So I must clarify.
01-09-2015 10:04 PM
Bluedobie
Quote:
Originally Posted by mommyblaze3 View Post
Mods, can we just close this thread?

No need for a Mod to close the thread. Everyone just stop posting.

I know how passionate one can get in their beliefs, but I think a lot of these posts got a little carried away.

I'm not necessarily agreeing or disagreeing with what the OP did in the past, because I don't know the whole story or all the variables / reasons she did or didn't do certain things.

What I do know is that the Dobermans in her breeding program are now at the bridge and she simply came back to share her new baby and reconnect with other lovers of the breed.

So to the OP, welcome back. I look forward to watching baby Senshi grow up. Would also love to see a picture of your Albino girl. Glad you rescued her.
01-09-2015 06:54 PM
StrykersPerson frznbuns,

Are you the same one that had an issue with size? In a motel? We already told you size doesn't matter when taking a dog into a motel.
01-09-2015 02:43 PM
mommyblaze3 Mods, can we just close this thread?
01-09-2015 02:29 PM
frznbuns yes, it was our decision to spay her. If I miss quoted myself Sorry!! But again, it was our decision to do what we thought was the best for our dog. She became a great Therapy dog and so much fun at agility (as long as the weather was good and the grass was dry LOL) Raven was a princess, she hated getting her feet dirty. She would clean them each time she came in for the yard, she hated wet grass. LOL but would play in the garden hose on our patio for so long. LOL my water bill would be high just because of her but she was worth it.
01-09-2015 07:49 AM
mommyblaze3 Frznbuns... you say initially before even bringing up clotting factors that you had her spayed bc she "was a high carrier of vWD". I would copy the quote but I'm on my tablet and it is acting up. But if you read back through, its there in black and white.
01-09-2015 06:39 AM
frznbuns
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dobiewankanobi View Post
The problem is that you are propagating garbage. "On advise of all vets we consulted with, we decided that we did not want to take the chance of her bleeding during a normal show grooming and us not be able to stop it."

1-my bitch doesn't bleed during a show grooming. I'm not tearing her hide off to show her. I'm not ripping toe nails off her feet. I mean wtf? What the hell kind of grooming is your "handler" doing?
2-your vet advice tells me that you need a new vet. One familiar with what vwd carrier means in Dobermans.
3-every time I challenge something you say, you tweak your story

If you decided that you just didn't want to show and because she's an untitled, vwd carrier that you had no purpose to keep her intact...well then fine. Just say that. Don't perpetuate that the breed is doomed due to vwd and that carriers shouldn't be shown.

I'm willing to bet that if your handler agreed to pull her and spay...it was because she didn't stand a shot in hell. She was a pet. Not competitive for whatever reason.
Like I said in a previous statement. I NEVER said that her low clotting factor was because of VwD. She was a carrier. This was done by DNA test by VETGEN. My Vet, the University of Missouri veterinarian School of medicine , and VCA Mission Animal Referral and Emergency Center Specialist did her Clotting factor test. They also ran things like Heart, Thyroid, etc. Like I also said previously, one day she cut her thigh by my rose bush, an 1/8" or smaller and it bled on and off for several weeks or more. We were very afraid to even have her spay. We had donor blood from Spirit standing by just in case. Now there was not much of a problem with the ears in bleeding but cut her toe nails a little too short and the bleeding would be for sometimes 2 days(and I am not saying just a little blood, I mean soaking through the bandages) We just did not want to take a chance. And I think that it was our decision with the advice of all the Vets and our handler. It had NOTHING to do with her look, Stance, markings, temperament, Etc.
01-09-2015 06:38 AM
frznbuns
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dobe_Mom View Post
A vWD carrier has no risk of bleeding due to low levels of vWD clotting factor. The bloodwork assay method is very unreliable. Those are facts, backed by scientific publications, not opinions.
Like I said in a previous statement. I NEVER said that her low clotting factor was because of VwD. She was a carrier. This was done by DNA test by VETGEN. My Vet, the University of Missouri veterinarian School of medicine , and VCA Mission Animal Referral and Emergency Center Specialist did her Clotting factor test. She was a year old at the time. They also ran things like Heart, Thyroid, etc. Like I also said previously, one day she cut her thigh by my rose bush, an 1/8" or smaller and it bled on and off for several weeks or more. We were very afraid to even have her spay. We had donor blood from Spirit standing by just in case. Now there was not much of a problem with the ears in bleeding but cut her toe nails a little too short and the bleeding would be for sometimes 2 days(and I am not saying just a little blood, I mean soaking through the bandages) We just did not want to take a chance. And I think that it was our decision with the advice of all the Vets and our handler. It had NOTHING to do with her look, Stance, markings, temperament, Etc.
01-08-2015 04:43 PM
Dobe_Mom A vWD carrier has no risk of bleeding due to low levels of vWD clotting factor. The bloodwork assay method is very unreliable. Those are facts, backed by scientific publications, not opinions.
01-08-2015 04:14 PM
Jazi
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rosemary View Post
Unless the dog was a clinical bleeder, I don't seen why you wouldn't work an affected dog.
Most- not saying all- but most reputable working breeders I know will not willingly produce an affected dog, which means if they are buying from other reputable working breeders, they're not buying affected dogs to work and then breed either.
01-08-2015 03:51 PM
Dobiewankanobi I suppose the more pressing question is, if this person didn't believe that a vwd carrier is worthy of showing in the breed ring then why did they breed or purchase a vwd carrier in the first place?

This is why none of this is logical.
01-08-2015 03:47 PM
Rosemary
Quote:
Originally Posted by mommyblaze3 View Post
Dobiewan: Totally for my own learning curve here, would a working breeder not want to breed or work affected dogs? OP has said that when she bred she was breeding her dogs toward working and less toward show. Maybe that's where her philosophy is coming from?
Unless the dog was a clinical bleeder, I don't seen why you wouldn't work an affected dog.
01-08-2015 03:44 PM
Dobiewankanobi
Quote:
Originally Posted by mommyblaze3 View Post
Dobiewan: Totally for my own learning curve here, would a working breeder not want to breed or work affected dogs? OP has said that when she bred she was breeding her dogs toward working and less toward show. Maybe that's where her philosophy is coming from?
I can't speak for what a working breeder breeds for because I'm not one. But I happen to know someone who currently works both an affected and a carrier and that person wouldn't DREAM of spaying/neutering just for that unless the affected was CLINICALLY AFFECTED.

In some aspects, I suppose the two (show and working) are similar. If I've just bred the best bitch I've ever bred in my life and she's a conformation rock star but is also a carrier...so what. Not spaying for that.

If I've just bred my best working prospect and he's turning out to be phenomenal, but is a carrier...so what. Not neutering for that.

The simple fact is that in doing that you are "throwing out the baby with the bath water." Are you willing to throw away everything you've worked for when you can theoretically breed those dogs to a clear and it's no longer an issue?

Someone serious about breeding and improving on the breed (whether show or working) isn't going to chop off one part of the gene pool over a dog that carries one positive and one negative for vwd. There are many more that aren't going to cut out a gene pool where dogs are living 10+ years and passing that longevity on just because they're affected. Again, there are far more pressing health concerns that are completely uncontrollable at the moment and even more increasingly hard to avoid.
01-08-2015 03:39 PM
mommyblaze3 Dobiewan: Totally for my own learning curve here, would a working breeder not want to breed or work affected dogs? OP has said that when she bred she was breeding her dogs toward working and less toward show. Maybe that's where her philosophy is coming from?
01-08-2015 03:25 PM
Dobiewankanobi
Quote:
Originally Posted by frznbuns View Post
No I am not telling anyone what to do with their Carrier or affected dogs. I am saying that it was our decision like it would be for anyone. Raven was beautiful, great lines, good temperament. but on the advise of all the Vets we consulted with, we decided that we did not want to take the chance of her bleeding during a normal show grooming and us not be able to stop it. What is the problem with that?? It was our dog, we talked to 3 Vets and our Handler to make the decision to pull her from showing and spay her.
The problem is that you are propagating garbage. "On advise of all vets we consulted with, we decided that we did not want to take the chance of her bleeding during a normal show grooming and us not be able to stop it."

1-my bitch doesn't bleed during a show grooming. I'm not tearing her hide off to show her. I'm not ripping toe nails off her feet. I mean wtf? What the hell kind of grooming is your "handler" doing?
2-your vet advice tells me that you need a new vet. One familiar with what vwd carrier means in Dobermans.
3-every time I challenge something you say, you tweak your story

If you decided that you just didn't want to show and because she's an untitled, vwd carrier that you had no purpose to keep her intact...well then fine. Just say that. Don't perpetuate that the breed is doomed due to vwd and that carriers shouldn't be shown.

I'm willing to bet that if your handler agreed to pull her and spay...it was because she didn't stand a shot in hell. She was a pet. Not competitive for whatever reason.
01-08-2015 03:24 PM
mommyblaze3 frznbuns, from what I'm reading, it sounds like it's your personal belief that regardless of other factors involved a carrier or affected dog should not be bred? Just trying to get to the bottom of it all.

(which is fine, we all have things we hold strong)
01-08-2015 03:19 PM
frznbuns No I am not telling anyone what to do with their Carrier or affected dogs. I am saying that it was our decision like it would be for anyone. Raven was beautiful, great lines, good temperament. but on the advise of all the Vets we consulted with, we decided that we did not want to take the chance of her bleeding during a normal show grooming and us not be able to stop it. What is the problem with that?? It was our dog, we talked to 3 Vets and our Handler to make the decision to pull her from showing and spay her.
01-08-2015 02:17 PM
Dobiewankanobi
Quote:
Originally Posted by frznbuns View Post
What I am trying to say is that we decided that we did not want Raven to show knowing that she was a carrier of the VwD gene and that she only had a 4% clotting factor in her blood. I feel that as a pet community we need to try to eradicate as many of these disease as we can. that comes with testing to make sure that the Bitch and Sire are as healthy as possible inside and out.. Mommyblaze3- I was not just talking about VwD but all diseases in our pets(Dogs, Cats, Rodents, Fish, Large Animals) we should be concerned with.
So are you saying that I should spay my GCH bitch because she's a CARRIER?!

What some have tried to tell you is that your "carrier" bitch is only carrier if it's a DNA test that determined that. Go ahead, use the clotting factor test today and I'll bet that its a different number. Because there are a variety of factors that can influence the clotting factor percentage. That's why its been determined to be an unreliable test in most cases.

No serious Doberman breeder that I know is going to pull a beautiful bitch from the show ring because she's a carrier. They pull them when they aren't competitive or have DQs or temperament problems, etc.
01-08-2015 02:08 PM
frznbuns What I am trying to say is that we decided that we did not want Raven to show knowing that she was a carrier of the VwD gene and that she only had a 4% clotting factor in her blood. I feel that as a pet community we need to try to eradicate as many of these disease as we can. that comes with testing to make sure that the Bitch and Sire are as healthy as possible inside and out.. Mommyblaze3- I was not just talking about VwD but all diseases in our pets(Dogs, Cats, Rodents, Fish, Large Animals) we should be concerned with.
01-08-2015 01:57 PM
Dobiewankanobi You know..I've got no actual proof that being affected is the cause, but when researching pedigrees and longevity lately I'm coming across a whole lot of dogs that are vwd affected and living some very long lives! They're also producing that longevity too.

Its easy to say stop breeding vwd affecteds, but in doing that are we missing out on some of that longevity?

I believe that carrier to carrier isn't that bad of a breeding if done to avoid other health risks. Statistically this type of breeding will produce 25% clear, 50% carrier and 25% affected. That alone just added a few dogs to the clear gene pool. We don't have that many clear dogs with longevity at the moment. We're working on it. But 75% of those puppies aren't an issue. And it's unlikely that the 25% affected will be clinically affected.

No good breeder WANTS to produce affecteds, but sometimes the choice is better than breeding to a clear who dropped dead of cardio at 4. Or to a clear that has 5 generations of cvi in BOTH sides of the pedigree. I'll choose an affected with good longevity over cvi and cardio any day.

A good friend of mine bred her affected bitch to a clear dog last year. This is her foundation bitch. In one breeding she's already improved by those pups being carriers. Her affected bitch had a textbook whelping (I know because I was there for it), she carried and raised 9 healthy puppies who will ALL be celebrating their first birthdays in a few weeks.

Its easy to sit back and say what you won't do...but when actually considering these situations as A WHOLE (vwd vs cardio vs cvi, etc) sometimes its not at all so black and white.
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