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  Topic Review (Newest First)
07-16-2008 12:09 PM
aquaholic $2000.00?

holy crap.
That's like ..... 5 mortgage payments for me.
07-16-2008 12:07 PM
RedFawnRising I just wanted to say I'm sorry for all the heartache, and wish the very best for you and the new puppy.

07-16-2008 11:15 AM
zoe25 I did take the puppy to the vet three days after getting her. On the day I took her she was not exhibiting the shaky legs while walking. We explained our concerns to the vet and then put her down and let her walk up to the vet and she said, "Looks fine to me, I wouldn't be too concerned. Three days later when the puppy went to the other vet as mine was out of town, where she was under emergency care, I did call the breeder and she said keep me informed. THere was no offer of I will take over treatment or when she is stable bring her back and I will get her care with my vet or anything.

I can see the pros and cons for deposits. If you are a breeder that has waiting lists for your dogs, then it can be a good thing to know if the person you are holding a puppy for is really interested. On the other hand, I think deposits should be at least partially refundable if there is a change of heart or good reason for your buyer not to get a dog.

I think that this breeder was hoping that this puppy wouldn't go down on us but recover on her own. Maybe she suspected Pano(I have read alot about it lately) and was hoping she would snap out of it.

I am a nervous wreck with the replacement puppy. Constantly watching her for any signs of shakiness, pain or anything.
07-15-2008 02:21 PM
Fitzmar Dobermans personally, it does not really sound like HOD to me - but I'm no vet........... just someone who has had a dog go through HOD.

As a breeder, I would have wanted someone to call me if a puppy they just got from me was seriously ill and needed a lot of vet care. A good breeder usually has it in their contract what they will pay for in the case of a serious illness within a certain time limit - usually the puppy lemon laws for the state they are in..... which in my case is 10 days.

I also always want people to take a puppy to their own vet within a few days of bringing them home in order to have a well check done by a vet they trust.

I will say, that if a puppy did not appear to be in good health, they would not leave.......... and I don't take deposits so that would never be an issue.
07-15-2008 12:06 PM
CPower Sounds like this breeder did everything completely backwards.

As for the new puppy, Vet's actually don't know exactly what causes Wobbler's. They think it could be genetics and/or fast growth.

Unfortunatly testing for Wobbler's is really expensive and I think one of the scan's they do can be dangerous for the dog.

I would suggest ongoing research on the topic, I don't know as much as I should but I think this is an area that as Dobe owners should be well educated in
07-11-2008 06:08 PM
workingk9s It seems that only some breeders get the red flag for more than one litter at a time. Some others get "looked the other way" when there are multiples. I guess never say never should be implied, but it does seem that if the breeder in this case didn't know the temperaments, then two was too many.
07-11-2008 11:57 AM
zoe25 After I met the breeder(who seems to be very a very nice person) but she didn't know her puppies temperments at all, I started rethinking the whole thing. You are right, after the fact it seemed surprising that she would have two litters by two different bitches at the same time. I have had a couple of shepherd litters when I had them and it is ALOT of work and also you stress about finding each one of your babies a good home. Even I, not being a full time breeder, knew who my puppies were as individuals. They all have their own unique traits. At the time, she had our deposit already and we would have just been smart to walk away minus 500.00 in hindsight. I liked her dogs as far as looks and I thought the male was currently in the process of getting his title. BUT I know nothing of the dog show world, I did a fair bit of obedience showing with one of my shepherd bitches but then we moved and I didn't do it anymore.

Thank you to everyone that expressed sympathy for my first little girl. I am hopeful and praying for a good turn out with my present puppy. I will keep posting about her as time goes on and get a picture up of Marley.

07-11-2008 12:20 AM
dobekiss Just catching up on this thread, I am so sorry to read about what you and the puppy have gone thru. It's such a terrible shame this happened. I have some doubts about the genuineness of this breeder. IMO it doesn't sound like proper care was taken to ensure the health and temperment of this litter and the other litter. Also, a proper breeder with more than one litter on the go...ick, a bit grubby in my view. If that's what happened, I may have misread that part.
As for the "replacement" I hope, hope, hope your new puppy turns into the dog you have dreamed of. I hope she's healthy, happy and full of all the traits that make them the Dobes we love and cherish. Welcome to DT and visit often for fun and info ;-)
07-10-2008 10:48 AM
zoe25 Debi asked if the puppy was underweight. I don't know if she was underweight, though she was on the lean side. When we took her to the vet at 9 weeks, she weighed 14 pounds but she was also the biggest/tallest female puppy from her litter.
07-10-2008 10:44 AM
zoe25 No they didn't do any melagrams or anything on this puppy. At the point that they said their diagnosis was wobblers and epithicitis, we had vet bills that almost totaled the price of the dog. It would have been financially impossible to pay for the melagram at that point, we had just finished paying for our daughter's wedding.

We have already bonded with our new girl and even if we end up with a bad outcome with her in the future, I couldn't imagine giving her back. The breeder never offered me our money back but just a replacement puppy, I guess in my state of shock and grief over our little girl, I never thought to push the issue of getting the money back. To be fair to the breeder, she did offer me her last puppy out of a previous litter but I thought her very timid for a doberman and also she didn't like her confirmation. It could have just been the gangly state she was in but I didn't care for her at all. So if this has a bad outcome, really the breeder can't be blamed for the fact that I chose another puppy out of my first puppy's litter. I still wish though that I had gotten the money back and if she had offered it, I would have taken it. As you say, there are plenty of puppies out there that are healthy. Also as Debi pointed out, the wobblers was never absolutely confirmed with a melagram which is the only way to be 100% sure.

I would like to ask all of you though if HOD or ephiticitis is something that dobe puppies get alot and if the outcome is usually good in the long run? Is it genetic or something they pick up because of the puppy vaccine?

Thank you so much to all of you who answered me and gave advice. I appreciate it so much. :0) I will continue to be a regular blogger on here to get advice about my little girl. :0) :0)
07-10-2008 08:35 AM
Originally Posted by zoe25 View Post
I read the description of HOD and it sounds like it could be it except for the whole neck inflammation. Do you know if it affects the neck also? There was no swelling in the joints although you could tell she was in EXTREME pain. Is this something a vet unfamiliar with Dobes would know anything about? after the nosediving while attempting to get her to stand after a couple of days of antibiotics, their first instinct before xrays was wobblers. I also pointed out the fever and elevated white count but they ruled that to be from the inflammation of the bone growth joints and said she had wobblers also because they noticed a narrowing of her spine in her neck. Could it be possible that she had both??
I have never heard of wobblers so young??? a 9 wk old pup will always have a weird looking xray of bones because their growing! and the plates are not closed... when you do a proper test for wobblers they 9x out of 10 inject a die into the spine to see the spine properly... was that done??? I had a bitch at 6yrs old ( the normal age that it may start) get wobblers and this is what they did? was the pup under weight when you got her?
07-10-2008 07:42 AM
JavasMom I am so sorry you have had such a bad experience. I would check out the puppy 'lemon laws' in your state. You probably have good recourse to get those vet bills reimbursed. I doubt that this 'breeder' has a right to withhold AKC registration papers from you.
07-10-2008 07:24 AM
clipclop Are there puppy lemon laws in your area that you can use as recourse against this breeder? maybe a civil suit? if an option- i would give the new pup back and find a pup from a different litter...
07-10-2008 12:12 AM
Dobemom2b For your own knowledge you may want to read some of the articles Pet Health Articles | Dog Diet, Nutrition, Feed Programs | GREATDANELADY.COM she addresses both HOD and wobblers as well as many other issues.
07-09-2008 10:51 PM
zoe25 The diagnosis was epithicitis which after just requestioning the vet today after listening to your blogs, is another name for HOD.....hmmmm.... anyways it is that as well as wobblers syndrome because of the neck issue. I am now wondering if HOD can affect the neck as well??????? All I can tell you is that this puppy was in extreme extreme distress with this. No pain meds were ever given to her :0(
07-09-2008 08:06 PM
Originally Posted by lolonurse View Post
if she doesn't pay the vet bills, and doesn't give you papers on the new puppy within a month or so, report her to the AKC, DPCA, and the State Attorney General - or threaten to do so and to take her to small claims court, unless she makes good on her obligations.
Being realistic here-the AKC *might* get involved in a situation where no papers are provided. They're NOT going to get into the middle of a pissing contest about paying vet bills. Their response to that would almost certainly be for the two parties to work it out through the court system.

And only DPCA members are allowed to file grievances against other DPCA members.

07-09-2008 07:24 PM
Dobemom2b Was HOD the final diagnoses on the pup bagsjr lost, Addie?
07-09-2008 07:21 PM
Dobemom2b If the sire is imported AKC does require dna be submitted before they will register him as a sire.

The sire is the only one they will require dna be submitted on as long as the dam is already akc registered. The pups are not tested, they are presumed to be from the sire and dam of record unless someone protests that. If protested both parents and pup would be profiled to assure the parentage is correct.

They had the time since mating to date to go home to get the above done, if they came from a accepted transferable registy it should have been completed long before the pups were old enough to leave mom. Part of being responsible is producing those papers.

AKC rules state that if for some reason papers can not be given with the dog
American Kennel Club - About Registration
Papers and Identification

When you buy a dog represented as AKC registrable, you should receive an AKC Dog Registration Application form properly filled out by the seller. When you complete your portion and submit it with the proper fee, this form will enable you to register the dog. When the application has been processed, you will receive an AKC Registration Certificate.

Under AKC Rules, any person who sells dogs represented as AKC registrable, must maintain records that make it possible to give full identifying information with every dog delivered even though AKC "papers" are not yet available. Do not accept a promise of later identification.

The Rules and Regulations of the American Kennel Club stipulate that whenever someone sells or delivers a dog registrable with AKC, the dog must be identified by providing the buyer with a properly completed AKC Dog Registration Application for a dog not yet individually registered or a properly completed AKC Registration Certificate for a registered dog. If neither of these is available, the person delivering or shipping the dog must furnish the person acquiring the dog with a bill of sale or written statement, signed by the seller, giving all of the identifying information listed below.

For a Dog Not Yet Individually Registered
Sex and color and markings
Date of birth
Litter number (when available)
Names and numbers of sire and dam
Name of breeder
Date sold or delivered

For a Registered Dog
Registered name
Registration number
Date sold or delivered
This identifying information must be supplied with the dog even though AKC papers are not yet available, and even to a person who takes the dog only for resale as an agent or on consignment, and the same information must be passed on by him when he disposes of it. When you do receive the properly completed AKC registration papers, verify the papers against your bill of sale to ensure that all the information is correct. Please be advised that a dog will not be registered or transferred without the proper AKC registration papers.

If you are buying a dog that is supposed to be registrable with the AKC you should realize it is your responsibility to obtain complete identification of the dog or you should not buy the dog. Failure to get AKC "registration papers" causes more grief for buyers of purebred registrable dogs than any other problem except sickness. It has long been common practice to explain the inability saying "AKC hasn't sent the papers yet." The essence of this and similar excuses is that because the American Kennel Club is at fault, papers are not available. The fact is that the processing of any AKC registration item takes approximately three weeks. If a breeder is doing his paperwork in a regular, careful manner, there is ample time to obtain the necessary "papers" from AKC prior to the sale of any puppy. When "papers" are not available at the time of delivery, it is a red-flag warning sign to exercise extreme caution.

Originally Posted by zoe25 View Post
I am hesitant to name the breeder as we were really not smart about this and let our hearts rule our heads. I have had many German Shepherds and dealt with many good breeders and I had hesitancy after we had given her our deposit and then went and saw the puppies as she didn't seem to know anything about the puppy's personalitys. I was very specific about what we wanted personality wise yet when we showed up and asked her which females looked like possiblities for us, she claimed that all her puppies were outgoing but laidback. In other words, I did not want to get a high drive dog that needed constant work. After we gave her the final payment for the puppy and were ready to take her home, she hit us with the fact that she hadn't been able to register the litter yet as the dad is from Brazil and this is his first litter and they wanted a DNA test first. Has anyone heard of this or are we just being fed another line. I won't have the papers on the present female for another month as least if the DNA test results are good. Please don't tell me what an idiot we were as we already realize this. I feel like if this breeder knows I am blogging about her she won't give me my papers. I know you guys are going to be shocked but we paid 2000.00 for this puppy and I am sure we way overpaid for a companion pet. I have no good reason for being this stupid except we were eager to get a puppy and she was the only breeder at the time in California with puppies!! I emailed several other breeders but didn't get any replys from them except they didn't have puppies at this time. One said she would steer me in the right direction of a good breeder, then I never heard from her again.
if the DNA test results are good
I wouldn't stress over this as an import they just want to enter him in the database for future generations, I don't think his parents are likely to be in the akc dna database so there's not much for them to compare it to. It's more designed so that puppies in future generations can prove by thier dna to have descended from his dna.
07-09-2008 06:28 PM
BlackandTans I don't know a lot about HOD but just wanted to say how sorry i am for you and the little puppy. It sounds like from how "general" the breeder is being that they knew what was going on before even giving you the puppy but didn't want to tell you.

IMO: Sadly.... I would not take another puppy from them. But I agree with lolonurse and would HIGHLY consider reporting this breeder....
07-09-2008 06:16 PM
zoe25 I read the description of HOD and it sounds like it could be it except for the whole neck inflammation. Do you know if it affects the neck also? There was no swelling in the joints although you could tell she was in EXTREME pain. Is this something a vet unfamiliar with Dobes would know anything about? after the nosediving while attempting to get her to stand after a couple of days of antibiotics, their first instinct before xrays was wobblers. I also pointed out the fever and elevated white count but they ruled that to be from the inflammation of the bone growth joints and said she had wobblers also because they noticed a narrowing of her spine in her neck. Could it be possible that she had both??
07-09-2008 06:06 PM
Originally Posted by zoe25 View Post
what is HOD?
H- Hypertrophic Osteodystrophy
07-09-2008 05:09 PM
lolonurse Not only should you present your vet bills to the breeder, but you should make a document of exactly what happened that day, and the events that took place, the whole process of getting that puppy - and if she doesn't pay the vet bills, and doesn't give you papers on the new puppy within a month or so, report her to the AKC, DPCA, and the State Attorney General - or threaten to do so and to take her to small claims court, unless she makes good on her obligations.
07-09-2008 04:57 PM
zoe25 what is HOD?
07-09-2008 04:53 PM
sebsyd First, I am so sorry about the poor little pup! Wobblers is a nasty condition in an older dog, but for a puppy it must be pure hell. I lost my last girl to Wobblers and it broke my heart. She lived to chase her tennis balls, and to see her so immobilized was utter agony. I have also never heard of a pup so young with the disease. I would be very leary of taking another pup from the same litter. I don't think that you would be out of line to present a vet bill to the breeder and ask for reimbursement. I think that I would wait for another litter if the breeder will not refund your money. If she/he refunds your money then, IMO, I'd run to another quality breeder and not take another chance on this one. Sorry for your problems. Keep us informed as to your progress.
07-09-2008 04:52 PM
rainddobes Sounds like HOD to me. Jaden's litter mate went through a similar situation, although JJ did not shake. I hope the breeder will take care of the little sick pup. If it's HOD, it maynot be so difficult to cure.
I hope the new pup was not from the same litter.
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