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post #1 of 30 (permalink) Old 05-04-2020, 04:45 PM Thread Starter
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Doberland kennel

Hello everyone I purchased a Int. Champion from Margo Richards at Doberland Dobermans . I have issues and she will not work with me to resolve them . Does anyone know this kennel ??
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post #2 of 30 (permalink) Old 05-04-2020, 05:52 PM
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Hello everyone I purchased a Int. Champion from Margo Richards at Doberland Dobermans . I have issues and she will not work with me to resolve them . Does anyone know this kennel ??
I poked around to see if I could find anything about Doberland--even in DobeQuest (pedigree data base belonging to and maintained by the DPCA) there were only three or four entries under Doberland--doesn't even seem to be an entire pedigree for any of them. Is the dogs you purchased from the 2015 litter?

Don't know what kind of issues you have but for a few you might be able to get some assistance from AKC--but for most issues you are kind of on your own. Finance stuff usually means filing in small claims court. But mostly all you can do is report the problem to Better Business Association.

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post #3 of 30 (permalink) Old 05-04-2020, 06:00 PM
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Oh, yeah, she's pretty well known, unfortunately. She used to have the kennel name of Guardian Angels, and then Guardian K9

Some of her history: https://www.dobermantalk.com/puppy-c...cs-inside.html


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post #4 of 30 (permalink) Old 05-04-2020, 09:48 PM Thread Starter
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I purchased Int. Doberland Powerhouse aka Balor. Let me start by saying he’s a good looking male dog and she advertised him well on her website . I talked for a few weeks back and forth via text messages and phone conversations with Margo Richards from Doberland. She advertised he was Dna cleared of Dcm and ofa certified good, also stated he’s housebroken and loves tides in car etc. and I asked about his boys she said anything that she would look and take care of anything he needed before pick up . After all our conversations I drove 9 hrs one way to purchase him . She did not let us come to her house she meet us at a tractor supply store in Balvior, Mo which I thought was a little odd but with covid 19 going around I understood. It was very windy and cool day . She had just given Balor a bath and he was still wet standing in the cold so everything was kinda rush rush. She said she was getting out of breeding due to her health. Margo showed me some paperwork but the wind was blowing all around . I signed and contract that we would give him a good home and gave a health guarantee that did he had 2 yrs remaining . He was a little nervous but understandable because he was wet and cool outside. We got in our vehicle and proceeded to go home . After about 10 minutes out we stopped at a gas station And we looked over his paperwork more carefully he is dcm1 positive and his rabid shot record was 2 yrs past due! Booster shots 1 yr past due! No heartworm test either! To throw insult to injury she only had his hips premlinary threw ofa when he was 14 months old. Never retested him at the age of 2 . We had many text messages and phone conversations this was all suppose to be taken care of and he was suppose to be dna cleared of Dcm . I tried calling Margo several times immediately after going threw all the paperwork she would not answer . We waited and tried again nothing . We had to get back home . No shots, nothing on him . Ugh!!! Finally several messages later after we got home she finally called me and got snappy I told her this wasn’t our agreement and she advertised him on her website as well as clear and ofa good. The worse is yet to come stay with me . I expressed his anxiety his has had . He is scared of everything how can this beautiful handsome boy that has been shown be so scared of everything? We gave him space , time , love took him to the vet got him updated on shots as a responsible owner. How did this dog fall threw the cracks??? WTH? It gets worse he has lunged at me twice . Yet follows me everywhere we have experience and are very responsible. Today my 18 yr old was standing by my kitchen counter and he bit him on the leg !!! I’ve have reached out several times to Margo so did my sister she don’t believe it she says ! Will not refund our money says I signed a as is contract blah blah blah and blocked me !
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post #5 of 30 (permalink) Old 05-04-2020, 10:09 PM Thread Starter
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It has left me no choice but to file a law suite against Doberland aka Margo Richards. I would love to reach out to some of his past handlers . He’s 3 points away from being a AKC champion why didn’t he finish? She has puppies out of him . Now selling her other champion and others on her website. This dog has been put on the back burner . And has fell threw the cracks. I’ve reached out to a few trainers as well in the men while.
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post #6 of 30 (permalink) Old 05-04-2020, 10:24 PM
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How long have you had him? Are you trying to return him or just get some kind of refund or discount price from this breeder?

The temperament your dog is showing is very worrisome indeed. I hope your son wasn't badly hurt. An anxious fearful dog who also will lunge and bite is almost the worst case scenario in terms of behavior and can be very difficult to manage. If you haven't had him for very long, it is possible he is still really stressed out because of the changes in his life, but the behavior you describe is very troublesome to me.

I would advise you to get a consultation with a behavior specialist (don't wait--if he's anxious, maybe even fear biting, you need to take action now) who might be able to give you an idea about what is going on with the dog and whether he can be worked with and trained enough to be safe with your family. Your description doesn't sound very hopeful--but he really should be evaluated in person by a behaviorist who can actually see the dog, how he acts in general and what seems to set him off.

Incidentally, there is really no such thing as DNA clear for DCM. There is a genetic test which shows the presence of a gene which could have something to do with DCM, but DCM is a complicated disease with apparently several genes involved. Dogs who are positive for DCM1 may never have a problem; dogs who are negative can still develop DCM.

If you are buying a puppy (or any dobe, really) you should look for good cardiogram and holter test results for both parents, done within a year of their breeding. You should be looking back into his bloodlines to see if DCM shows up in several of his ancestors and how far back it is--look for longevity in the dog's bloodlines.

If you are buying an adult dog, he can have a holter and cardiogram done directly on him, though the problem often develops as a dog gets older, so tests done on a young dog may still be normal. But there is no such thing as a doberman bloodline that is totally free of DCM.


Edited to add--looks like you posted while I was writing. I'm glad to hear that you have reached out to trainers--this does not sound like a dog who will be easy to manage on your own.

Last edited by melbrod; 05-04-2020 at 10:34 PM.
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post #7 of 30 (permalink) Old 05-04-2020, 10:40 PM Thread Starter
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We have had him for a few weeks now, he will play ball etc . But is very anxious and now biting . At this point a good breeder would do the right thing and take the dog back and refund my money. This has turned into a safety issue now .
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post #8 of 30 (permalink) Old 05-05-2020, 09:29 AM
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Honestly, I think you should just cut your losses. I'm sorry you didn't look this lady up before purchasing the dog. At this point do you want to keep him, do you want to return him or what? When bites what exactly do you mean? Is he instigating play or is he biting over a resource or is it aggression?
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post #9 of 30 (permalink) Old 05-05-2020, 09:35 AM
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I'd be interested to hear what a behaviorist has to say after evaluating him. Sounds like possibly a dangerous dog. What were your plans for the dog?
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post #10 of 30 (permalink) Old 05-05-2020, 10:35 AM
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Originally Posted by CHJD View Post
I purchased Int. Doberland Powerhouse aka Balor. Let me start by saying he’s a good looking male dog and she advertised him well on her website . I talked for a few weeks back and forth via text messages and phone conversations with Margo Richards from Doberland. She advertised he was Dna cleared of Dcm and ofa certified good, also stated he’s housebroken and loves tides in car etc. and I asked about his boys she said anything that she would look and take care of anything he needed before pick up . After all our conversations I drove 9 hrs one way to purchase him . She did not let us come to her house she meet us at a tractor supply store in Balvior, Mo which I thought was a little odd but with covid 19 going around I understood. It was very windy and cool day . She had just given Balor a bath and he was still wet standing in the cold so everything was kinda rush rush. She said she was getting out of breeding due to her health. Margo showed me some paperwork but the wind was blowing all around . I signed and contract that we would give him a good home and gave a health guarantee that did he had 2 yrs remaining . He was a little nervous but understandable because he was wet and cool outside. We got in our vehicle and proceeded to go home . After about 10 minutes out we stopped at a gas station And we looked over his paperwork more carefully he is dcm1 positive and his rabid shot record was 2 yrs past due! Booster shots 1 yr past due! No heartworm test either! To throw insult to injury she only had his hips premlinary threw ofa when he was 14 months old. Never retested him at the age of 2 . We had many text messages and phone conversations this was all suppose to be taken care of and he was suppose to be dna cleared of Dcm . I tried calling Margo several times immediately after going threw all the paperwork she would not answer . We waited and tried again nothing . We had to get back home . No shots, nothing on him . Ugh!!! Finally several messages later after we got home she finally called me and got snappy I told her this wasn’t our agreement and she advertised him on her website as well as clear and ofa good. The worse is yet to come stay with me . I expressed his anxiety his has had . He is scared of everything how can this beautiful handsome boy that has been shown be so scared of everything? We gave him space , time , love took him to the vet got him updated on shots as a responsible owner. How did this dog fall threw the cracks??? WTH? It gets worse he has lunged at me twice . Yet follows me everywhere we have experience and are very responsible. Today my 18 yr old was standing by my kitchen counter and he bit him on the leg !!! I’ve have reached out several times to Margo so did my sister she don’t believe it she says ! Will not refund our money says I signed a as is contract blah blah blah and blocked me !

I'm afraid that "International Champion" isn't the type of championship that we typically talk about as a show championship that we would look for when you look at a "show" dog. The IABCA championships are generally done in one weekend. They are great for experience, and getting started, but they aren't nearly the same as an AKC championship. So he hasn't been "shown" in the way you think he has.

The temperament you are describing is extremely concerning. Frankly, I wouldn't want to take that on. I've had a dog with temperament issues, and it was a long, hard, heartbreaking road. I wouldn't knowingly go down it again.

You can certainly have him evaluated, but my gut says this dog can't be responsibly rehomed. Lots of people will say I'm wrong, but I've seen these stories over and over. They don't end well. I'm really sorry you're in this position.


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post #11 of 30 (permalink) Old 05-05-2020, 12:40 PM Thread Starter
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He is one major away from being a AKC champion as well. I’m wondering now if that’s why he wasn’t finished ??
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post #12 of 30 (permalink) Old 05-05-2020, 12:43 PM Thread Starter
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I’m in the process of filing a law suite
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post #13 of 30 (permalink) Old 05-05-2020, 12:48 PM Thread Starter
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We have tried to return him and get a refund she refuses and has blocked my sister on Facebook as well .
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post #14 of 30 (permalink) Old 05-05-2020, 03:21 PM
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He is one major away from being a AKC champion as well. I’m wondering now if that’s why he wasn’t finished ??
Are you sure about that? Can you give me his AKC # and I'll verify. Also, if we can find his show results we can find out who his handler was. She could give us some insight on his temperament.
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post #15 of 30 (permalink) Old 05-05-2020, 03:43 PM
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He is one major away from being a AKC champion as well. I’m wondering now if that’s why he wasn’t finished ??
I looked him up. He has 13 points with one major.


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post #16 of 30 (permalink) Old 05-05-2020, 06:02 PM
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If no one's messaged you yet I will send you the handlers name, she may or may not be able to give you some clues about his temperament. He's a nice looking dog btw.
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post #17 of 30 (permalink) Old 05-05-2020, 06:21 PM
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I have a few questions because some of the things your say don't make sense. There are some dobes that have screws loose. They usually become aggressive out of no where. Part of what you say makes it sound that way but then you are very casual. A Doberman biting randomly out of fear, aggression or a screw loose, when they bite you are going to the hospital and getting SEVERAL stitches. But you never mentioned going to the hospital or needing stitches... I think you need to maybe elaborate a bit on what led up to the bite and did it just hurt? leave a bruise? cut skin?.... If none of the bites resulted in stitches and if it's not escalating I think with a good behaviorist and some love this might be a great dog. But he will likely NEVER be a dog that will accept company for the most part.

Do you have a crate for him btw? If not he might enjoy having one.
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post #18 of 30 (permalink) Old 05-05-2020, 08:43 PM
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I agree with Gretchen Red. I would like more context for the situation.

Yes, it is unacceptable that he's snapping / biting. And everyone has to make their own decision about what they're willing to take on and try to fix. I will say that, although, yes he is snapping or biting, the fact that he hasn't sent anyone to the ER indicates to me that he does have some amount of self-restraint. If hit bit your son's leg and didn't do damage enough for medical attention, then he held back, IMO. Again, its still unacceptable that he did it but an adult male Dobe could have ripped your son open if he intended to do so. So I believe that was a warning about something with your son. Were you there to see it? Can you think of anything that might have triggered it? Anything the dog could have misread?

Also, you've only had him a few weeks, so its hard to be confident that the dog you're seeing now is the dog you'll see in a year. Have you heard of a honeymoon phase with dogs?

Perhaps its inappropriately named for your case but, basically, it just means it takes time for the dog to unwind and feel comfortable in a new home. Landing in a new home is a stressful life change for a dog and different dogs will react differently. Also, let's be honest, you have no idea how he was handled in his previous home. Maybe everything was fine and he's just very upset and stressed out at going to a new home. Or maybe things weren't so great for him there and he doesn't really trust people. Who knows? The reason doesn't necessarily matter now because we can't change his past and it doesn't magically stop what he's doing now.

Having said all that, I agree that you probably need a crate if you don't have one. (Maybe you already know the rest of this, in which case feel free to ignore me but in case you don't...) You mentioned that you gave him space and time but what kind of space? And how much time? Because of the stress of a new home, a new dog should be given more quiet time than you might think he needs - totally undisturbed by people, and other dogs or pets to observe and process the new environment. I typically spend at least a month integrating dogs unless I happen to get lucky and have a new dog who settles in super fast. And even then, IME, new dogs continue to relax and show more and more of themselves throughout the first year.

I would also try to stick pretty close to a simple and straight forward schedule with him for now so that he can start to predict his environment and day-to-day life.

Is there any sort of pattern you can identify in the situations when he seems most uncomfortable? Sometimes things that you wouldn't think would be an issue, might be with a new dog.

I don't know what to tell you about trying to get in touch with Margo and hold her accountable. I wish you had found this forum sooner so you could have been warned about her. For about 16 years, I lived roughly 45 minutes from where she operates and I'm sorry to say that she has a poor reputation in dogs and has ever since I first heard about her. I've never known of her to stand behind her many dogs before and I can't imagine she'll suddenly grow a conscience and do it now either. I'm also sorry to say that I wouldn't be surprised if she lied to you about getting out of breeding to dump a dog she no longer wanted or to change her kennel name again in an attempt to escape her reputation. But none of that helps you either. I'm just sorry you're dealing with all this.



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post #19 of 30 (permalink) Old 05-05-2020, 09:12 PM
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Originally Posted by brw1982 View Post
I'm also sorry to say that I wouldn't be surprised if she lied to you about getting out of breeding to dump a dog she no longer wanted or to change her kennel name again in an attempt to escape her reputation.
It wouldn't be the first time. Back in 2014, another crummy breeder all of a sudden wound up with about half a dozen Guardian Angel bitches on their website, and the Guardian Angels/Guardian K9 website disappeared. A couple of years later, she was applying for an AKC registered kennel name using Doberland.
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post #20 of 30 (permalink) Old 05-05-2020, 09:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rosemary View Post
It wouldn't be the first time. Back in 2014, another crummy breeder all of a sudden wound up with about half a dozen Guardian Angel bitches on their website, and the Guardian Angels/Guardian K9 website disappeared. A couple of years later, she was applying for an AKC registered kennel name using Doberland.
Unfortunately, I know all about that. I was a member of the training club where she claimed to have earned training certificates with her dogs back when she was Guardian Angel K9. She and someone else with her used to cart in a few puppies a few times per year into the basic classes and then pass it off with buyers as some sort of high mark of achievement. She actually started bringing in even more puppies when she switched to Doberland. Some people hoped she was going to make a real effort but, of course, that never happened.
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post #21 of 30 (permalink) Old 05-05-2020, 09:20 PM
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I'm going to walk back a bit on my previous statement on re-read.

What I recommend is that you start the "2 week shutdown" for him. Follow it really faithfully. A lot of very reputable rescues follow it, and it is REALLY helpful for dogs transitioning to new homes. I highly, highly recommend it.

https://www.arottalove.org/info/file?file=14673.pdf

After that, you slowly ease into a more normal (but structured) life. I think you'll start to get a more accurate sense of his temperament at that point, but even then, remember that dogs take a while to truly show who they are when they are rehomed.

Beyond that, I echo what brw1982 said...I don't think she will stand behind this dog. We've heard multiple stories of people attempting to pursue legal action. I've not yet heard of success. I think you'll have to decide if the stress of it is worth it and what your desired outcome is.
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post #22 of 30 (permalink) Old 05-06-2020, 08:11 AM
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What they said is correct. When I take in a foster they spend 100% of their time at home. Getting to know me, my dogs, my schedule,.... After two weeks I start gently showing them the rules of the house and taking them places with me. I might take them for a short walk down my street but you have to make sure they don't get over stimulated or overly nervous.

I did talk to someone who was showing at the same time this dog was. She said two dogs were showing around the same time. They were around the same age and couldn't be kept anywhere near each other. Just like you can read about with littermate syndrome. She said the other dog's temperament seemed ok and yours she said, "not so much".
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post #23 of 30 (permalink) Old 08-07-2020, 10:42 PM
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I hate to hear this about Powerhouse. We have a son of Powerhouse, born in 2019. I would check frequently to see if she had new photos of him. I noticed her Facebook and website was taken down, and I started searching and found this thread. I hope he is okay and things are better. He is a beautiful dog. I hate you have been through all of this.
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post #24 of 30 (permalink) Old 08-16-2020, 11:27 PM
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I cannot put into words the experience I had with Doberland.com. I purchased a male who bit me at least 7 times and 2 of then were in the faces. The last time I was completely attacked by the 16 months old male.
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post #25 of 30 (permalink) Old 08-18-2020, 10:08 PM
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Well this is not what I was hoping to find when searching to find Margo but I am not surprised.I purchased a July 10th male puppy of Powerhouses from Margo in October. I purchased the male I got after speaking with her extensively about getting a dog for a service dog program for disabled veterans. He was skittish and scared. She was no where to be found when contacted. He is now male dog Reactive/aggressive and being kicked out of the program after 500 plus hours of training because he is Male dog reactive . So now its not just rehoming a dog thats not trustworthy with other male dogs , its a dog that comes from an aggressive line. I hope whoever is suing her destroys her and if you need help with your case feel free to contact me. Also. Is there a way to rehome a dog like this with knowing its genetic predisposition?
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