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post #26 of 37 (permalink) Old 07-16-2019, 11:00 AM
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AD - I apologize for jumping of topic with Alison j. , Had not heard from her in a long time and was wondering about her girl .

Now —— Where to start ?

Ok , the print you had made , outstanding ! Love it ! I need to have some of them done for our crew and have a perfect wall to hang them on

Second — Very cool Jeep !

Third - Your guns could use some beefing up ! Looks like you need to head to Indiana for some some farm work , Think We will start you out baling hay first off the advance you to shoveling corn ! That will be a good start

Fourth — Glad you joined on here , wish it would have been under better circumstances, hope you stick around with your stories from the Left side coast

Doc
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post #27 of 37 (permalink) Old 07-16-2019, 11:17 AM
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Oh my... Another Jeeper!

I have had Jeeps forever. The current one is a 2013 JKUR10A. (A 2013 JK 4 door Rubicon 10th Anniversary LOL). It's the rig my wife drives, so with minor exceptions is pretty much stock with only 30,000 mies. It still does quite well off road. Obviously, no bouldering or serious rock crawling, but pretty much every thing else

McCoy loves riding in it. He's really good about it. Even rolling naked he stays in unless I call him out. He never barks when in the Jeep or my trucks. Still, it's pretty funny. I will park in a lot, like a grocery store and when I return, nobody has parked within 3 spaces of me. LOL

BTW. Tennis balls: Dobermans are prone to bowel obstructions which are life threatening. I rushed our senior to his vets several years ago because he seemed so sick (it happened very quickly). They immediately determined he was obstructed and had him on the operating table within minutes.

The culprit? Half of a tennis ball lodged midway through his intestines. He recovered quickly, but the vet said had I not brought him in when I did, he would have died. His intestines were close to bursting in which case, he would have gotten peritonitis from which he would not have survived. He ended up with a long incision from his sternum all the way down to his lower belly. Because it was stapled, my son referred to him as "Frankenpuppy"

The weird thing was that although he chased tennis balls, he was never allowed to chew them, because they are abrasive and very hard on teeth.

John
Portland OR

Edit to say... The Jeep, McCoy and I are spending 2 weeks in August at our cabin in Montana, just outside of Yellowstone Park. It is on a beautiful lake at 6800 feet. He loves it there. However, unlike his senior brother, I've never been able to teach him to swim. He likes the water, he just will not swim!
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post #28 of 37 (permalink) Old 07-16-2019, 11:45 AM
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Originally Posted by ArkadyDarell View Post
I think what my point is, or what I'm trying to convince myself, is that I was simply ignorant of most of the Dobie world that I see on these forums today.
Your story together with Kady is lovely, and she certainly had a wonderful life with you. There is no sense in beating yourself up for not knowing what you didn't know. That said, a responsible breeder would have enlightened you. I'm not the only breeder who puts together information packets for their owners giving materials on the various health issues in our breed, and many of us have private newsgroups or pages or platforms for our owners to spread any new info that comes along. I encourage my owners to test (and pass on the results to me so that I have the information to help me form future breeding decisions and also so that we can pass the info on to the owners of the relatives because what they find out may affect the siblings, aunts, uncles, nieces, nephews, etc.) I have my own Holter, and I gladly Holter any of my puppies in my area, and I ship it off to wherever it is needed if the owner wants (just got it back from New Brunswick). A couple of times you mentioned that your dogs were from "great lines" and a "reputable breeder" and maybe that's so but you haven't mentioned any breeder support or breeder education being passed your way. So I'm only mentioning this for future possible purchases. Reputable isn't the same as responsible. I just feel strongly that your breeder should have made you aware. I don't think you're to blame for not knowing, but they sure are for not talking to you about it.
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post #29 of 37 (permalink) Old 07-16-2019, 12:01 PM
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I believe I read on another post somewhere that you mentioned getting a Holter of your own - I'd consider this too if only to simplify the process of staying regular on monitoring. Are the results from the Holter something you can interpret yourself, or do those need to be run by a vet for interpretation?
At the time we bought the Holter (and it was purchased from Alba Medical) I had three Dobes and my friend had four Dobes and one of hers had a whole array of stuff that showed up best on a Holter and that dog was getting holtered about every two months so when a first generation Holter monitor came up for sale (a refurbished one) at around $1,000 + another couple of hundred in add ons we bought it) You should be able to find Alba on Google and they are easy folk to deal with.

The Holter gives you the most information on electrical function--and most (but not all) sudden death cases show up on Holter results. But realistically you want information via both an echo--an ultra sound of the living working heart plus a Holter done within a couple of months of the echo. And it is the information these two tests give over time that is most useful because you can see beginning failure in function over a series of tests.

Generally along with the software to go with a digital Holter monitor you get the additional software to download the information collected in 24 hours from the digital unit and then if you aren't a total Luddite (like me) your computer will transport it to Alba. They will send you a report--and if you see enough of them you can pretty well see the results and eventually you learn what they mean. But I do Holters--and the Mt Hood Doberman Pinscher Club (Oregon Chapter Club) has two cardio clinics a year and requires that dogs signed up for the clinics must also have a Holter done within two months of the echo.(the club owns Holter equipment and will rent it out for very moderate fees and do the information transmitting to Alba and the vet doing the echo will read it and explain it to you.)

I don't know which club is doing this sort of thing around your area--the two closest to you are Los Angeles DPC, Inc and San Fernando Valley DPC--check Google for websites. And Mt Hood was one of the early clubs to offer clinics (because this kind of testing is expensive) to get the price down to something reasonable--there are other clubs who also do things like these clinics

Quote:
Interestingly, I suffered a heart condition as a kid that involved arrhythmia, and I wore a Holter several times before they eventually performed a radio-catheter ablation on me to correct the issue. I wish DCM was something we could fix in that fashion, too. I'd get that done in a heartbeat for any future afflicted dogs. In the meantime I've read some very interesting stuff this year on DCM diagnosis and testing, especially involving the titin mutation they're interested in as a marker for DCM. This article has probably already made its rounds around these forums, but I found it pretty neat: https://news.ncsu.edu/2019/02/doberman-heart/
[/QUOTE]

I don't think there is a comparable treatment for dogs--some stuff in dog medicine translates directly from human to dog and vice versa but not all of it. And they really frown on experimentation on people--a lot of the stuff looking for solutions in humans is done on pigs--the pig heart and cardiac system is evidently fairly similar.

I work for a vet clinic and read all the vet journals as they come in and I believe I've read some about the titin mutation--but in humans--and there is a human variety of DCM which is almost identical to the canine one but this is such a complex problems that (just as a for instance, they have isolated somewhere around 23 or 24 genetic components that may or probably are part of the problem) while maybe they have three possible genetic components for dog DCM.

Somewhere else you asked about ProBNP--forgive me if I don't have that quite right--I have it done on my dogs when I do their annual blood panel--as an add on it's cheap--as a stand alone it's about three times as much. But there are definitely more than one school of thought when it comes to this test and how reliable it is in canines.

I really started this to pass the word along that some days I obviously can't type and when I said that on my first dog who was diagnosed with CHF and treated with Lasix and ultimately euthanized about 5 months after the diagnosis in 1988--that was a big FAT DUH!. That date should have be 1968 when he was 9 years old.

Mostly just more information on DCM in Dobermans and tests available and most economical way of having them done.

dobebug
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post #30 of 37 (permalink) Old 07-16-2019, 01:05 PM
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You had an honest to gawd water dog--I loved all the pictures but the one of Kady swimming reminded me of my one and only real water Doberman--a red male (my only red dog now that I think of it--I was in Sacramento when I had him and he grew up in the swimming pools and rivers around there. He swam like a fish and on summer some college kids taught him how to balance on a surf board--they did it in a pool in an apartment complex in Stockton and when they were playing with him in the pool (which, in theory he wasn't allowed to be in at all) it definitely raised eyebrows when people saw a big red dog on a surfboard.

Wonderful pictures.

Don't feel bad that you didn't know, what you didn't know. I learned a lot of what I know about medical issue with the Doberman because I hung out at dog shows and with veterinarians--and just plain luck.

And sudden death is a hard one to predict. One of my more recent dogs went that way (for the record I've had a lot of dogs between 1959 and today and while most of them had DCM only two of them actually died from cardio directly) The very first dog who was euthanized so he wouldn't drown because his lungs were filling with liquid because of DCM caused CHF. The dog I lost just a few years ago went via sudden death. He was a couple of months shy of 10 years. And we'd watched his Holter results become slowly more iffy--more VPC's--he was still running agility when the electrical issues really became noticible--I asked the cardiologist if I should stop running him in aglity. And I thought how much that dog would hate being a sit a home dog, doing nothing--the dog who loved agility--the cardiologist looked at me and pointed out that I knew the pospects for a dog like mine. Sudden death can occur no matter what you do or don't do--he was on appropriate medication for DCM itself but the electrical irregularities were as likely to kill him in his sleep, or while he was trotting around the back yard or riding in the truck as in an agility ring. So he went on going to agility trials with my friend who ran all my agility dogs--she came back from a trial one Saturday late morning and my dog came in to see what I was cutting up (tomatoes--he got a piece) and I let him out to get a drink and check the yard. After awhile my friend let him back in and I heard him sit behind me--that got my attention--that was not a dog who ever wasted time sitting. I grabbed his leash and hollered at my friend to call the clinic--the dogs sides were heaving--you could see the heart beat. I got him in the truck --he was standing in the back (inside the canopy) and about half way to the clinic (about 15 minutes away) he dropped like he'd been shot. I didn't even stop--I knew my dog was gone--five minutes later we were at the clinic--his vet was there with a stethoscope--she listened and shook her head.

I miss him to this day--it still makes me cry to tell the story but I wouldn't have traded his joy in the agility ring to keep him longer. He'd never have made a good patient he needed to go as he'd lived--balls out and having a great time doing something he wanted to do.

I'm not long on the concept of heaven and hell either--I figure my dog went where the good dogs go--where your Kady went--to feel well, run fast and be happy.

dobebug

There are just some things you can't predict no matter what you know--so I settle for doing the best I can and keeping up on medical progress in the vet field.
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post #31 of 37 (permalink) Old 07-16-2019, 04:53 PM
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Chasing Butterflies!

Here is a song for my new friend Sam................this reminds me of your story !!!
Thinking of you and your girl today!!
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post #32 of 37 (permalink) Old 07-16-2019, 06:08 PM
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So... With respect to bug's last post:

When Butcher was diagnosed with DCM. The question was other than meds... Should we alter his life style. Our vet, who is also a friend and in-law posed the question "If you were a dog, what would you prefer?"

Butcher was a big dog, always pushing a buck or so. His passion was running and hiking. Oh, and cuddling with his little brother.

We said: The He** with it and allowed him to continue his activities.

My main concern was if he died suddenly 6-8 miles up a trail, out in the middle of nowhere, how would I get his body back to the truck. This was a big and heavy dog. I figured that I would just bury him up there.

Ironically, he passed after a short walk with his brother in the living room. Quick and seeming painless. Just dropped dead.

He lived a full and happy life.

John
Portland OR
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post #33 of 37 (permalink) Old 07-16-2019, 06:55 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by LadyDi View Post
Great history together !
Nice story to hear at the beginning of my work day........
Universe is working in your favor...........you will meet your next love real soon........looking forward to it!
Check out the Axel thread........Louise just got her new pup recently.......they live in the UK.................she has one PIC of Axel jumping up on the dinner table...........so funny............and one of him trying to catch an irritating fly...........great thread.......we all watched her pick out the perfect pup........then as we all sat on the edge of out seats awaiting delivery.........oh you will just have to read the Axel's thread ..........good heart medicine !!
I will absolutely check out that thread! Thanks for your kind words. I didn't intend to write a biography but hey, guess that's kind of what it turned into

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AD - I apologize for jumping of topic with Alison j. , Had not heard from her in a long time and was wondering about her girl .

Now —— Where to start ?

Ok , the print you had made , outstanding ! Love it ! I need to have some of them done for our crew and have a perfect wall to hang them on

Second — Very cool Jeep !

Third - Your guns could use some beefing up ! Looks like you need to head to Indiana for some some farm work , Think We will start you out baling hay first off the advance you to shoveling corn ! That will be a good start

Fourth — Glad you joined on here , wish it would have been under better circumstances, hope you stick around with your stories from the Left side coast

Doc
Haha this totally made me laugh! I won't even pretend that I think I'd survive Indiana farm work. There were plenty of hard labor days for me in TX when I was younger. Nowadays I have something of a bad back. Just the thought of bailing hay hurts my L4-5 disc The most lifting with my back that I do is picking up a dober-butt into the Jeep, haha.


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Originally Posted by 4x4bike ped View Post
Oh my... Another Jeeper!

I have had Jeeps forever. The current one is a 2013 JKUR10A. (A 2013 JK 4 door Rubicon 10th Anniversary LOL). It's the rig my wife drives, so with minor exceptions is pretty much stock with only 30,000 mies. It still does quite well off road. Obviously, no bouldering or serious rock crawling, but pretty much every thing else

McCoy loves riding in it. He's really good about it. Even rolling naked he stays in unless I call him out. He never barks when in the Jeep or my trucks. Still, it's pretty funny. I will park in a lot, like a grocery store and when I return, nobody has parked within 3 spaces of me. LOL

BTW. Tennis balls: Dobermans are prone to bowel obstructions which are life threatening. I rushed our senior to his vets several years ago because he seemed so sick (it happened very quickly). They immediately determined he was obstructed and had him on the operating table within minutes.

The culprit? Half of a tennis ball lodged midway through his intestines. He recovered quickly, but the vet said had I not brought him in when I did, he would have died. His intestines were close to bursting in which case, he would have gotten peritonitis from which he would not have survived. He ended up with a long incision from his sternum all the way down to his lower belly. Because it was stapled, my son referred to him as "Frankenpuppy"

The weird thing was that although he chased tennis balls, he was never allowed to chew them, because they are abrasive and very hard on teeth.

John
Portland OR

Edit to say... The Jeep, McCoy and I are spending 2 weeks in August at our cabin in Montana, just outside of Yellowstone Park. It is on a beautiful lake at 6800 feet. He loves it there. However, unlike his senior brother, I've never been able to teach him to swim. He likes the water, he just will not swim!
+1 for Jeeps! The stock Jeeps are extremely capable vehicles. On the other side of that, 9/10 of the modifications I see on the road in LA are impractical and on a vehicle that's never seen a dirt road in it's life! Kady was very good about guarding the naked Jeep too. I think because we spent so much time on the road together, she was always more comfortable curling up on the back seat or watching passers-by than she would have been left at home. The shade/cage was a godsend. Best mod I have on the jeep. Keeps the wind down and the dog fully enclosed and the sun off my bald head . It was definitely her second home. It was a little tough in the more populated areas because she did like to defend her Jeep though. I typically kept the doors on if I was gonna let her out of my sight! I trusted her, I didn't so much trust other people not to bother her.

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Originally Posted by MaryAndDobes View Post
Your story together with Kady is lovely, and she certainly had a wonderful life with you. There is no sense in beating yourself up for not knowing what you didn't know. That said, a responsible breeder would have enlightened you. I'm not the only breeder who puts together information packets for their owners giving materials on the various health issues in our breed, and many of us have private newsgroups or pages or platforms for our owners to spread any new info that comes along. I encourage my owners to test (and pass on the results to me so that I have the information to help me form future breeding decisions and also so that we can pass the info on to the owners of the relatives because what they find out may affect the siblings, aunts, uncles, nieces, nephews, etc.) I have my own Holter, and I gladly Holter any of my puppies in my area, and I ship it off to wherever it is needed if the owner wants (just got it back from New Brunswick). A couple of times you mentioned that your dogs were from "great lines" and a "reputable breeder" and maybe that's so but you haven't mentioned any breeder support or breeder education being passed your way. So I'm only mentioning this for future possible purchases. Reputable isn't the same as responsible. I just feel strongly that your breeder should have made you aware. I don't think you're to blame for not knowing, but they sure are for not talking to you about it.
Thanks very much for the kind words. I agree with you completely that a more responsible breeder could have provided more information and created/maintained a better support network. In the future that is something that I'll value a lot more than I did in my ignorance. I think a part of that responsibility falls on me too - now that I'm more aware - I can be more proactive about that in the future. I think I was ever-so-slightly misquoted, but I wholeheartedly agree with your points. I understand (now) that well-documented lines do not equal responsible breeder, and that reputable and responsible are not one in the same. I think that language is important so I'm glad you addressed the phrasing I used.

I really do appreciate the clarification on terms and the Holter info. The kind of involvement in the community and dedication to the breed that you and other responsible breeders demonstrate is beyond admirable! I am going to continue doing my best to be as informed as possible and do my part to better the breed.

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Originally Posted by dobebug View Post
At the time we bought the Holter (and it was purchased from Alba Medical) I had three Dobes and my friend had four Dobes and one of hers had a whole array of stuff that showed up best on a Holter and that dog was getting holtered about every two months so when a first generation Holter monitor came up for sale (a refurbished one) at around $1,000 + another couple of hundred in add ons we bought it) You should be able to find Alba on Google and they are easy folk to deal with.

The Holter gives you the most information on electrical function--and most (but not all) sudden death cases show up on Holter results. But realistically you want information via both an echo--an ultra sound of the living working heart plus a Holter done within a couple of months of the echo. And it is the information these two tests give over time that is most useful because you can see beginning failure in function over a series of tests.

Generally along with the software to go with a digital Holter monitor you get the additional software to download the information collected in 24 hours from the digital unit and then if you aren't a total Luddite (like me) your computer will transport it to Alba. They will send you a report--and if you see enough of them you can pretty well see the results and eventually you learn what they mean. But I do Holters--and the Mt Hood Doberman Pinscher Club (Oregon Chapter Club) has two cardio clinics a year and requires that dogs signed up for the clinics must also have a Holter done within two months of the echo.(the club owns Holter equipment and will rent it out for very moderate fees and do the information transmitting to Alba and the vet doing the echo will read it and explain it to you.)

I don't know which club is doing this sort of thing around your area--the two closest to you are Los Angeles DPC, Inc and San Fernando Valley DPC--check Google for websites. And Mt Hood was one of the early clubs to offer clinics (because this kind of testing is expensive) to get the price down to something reasonable--there are other clubs who also do things like these clinics

***

I don't think there is a comparable treatment for dogs--some stuff in dog medicine translates directly from human to dog and vice versa but not all of it. And they really frown on experimentation on people--a lot of the stuff looking for solutions in humans is done on pigs--the pig heart and cardiac system is evidently fairly similar.

I work for a vet clinic and read all the vet journals as they come in and I believe I've read some about the titin mutation--but in humans--and there is a human variety of DCM which is almost identical to the canine one but this is such a complex problems that (just as a for instance, they have isolated somewhere around 23 or 24 genetic components that may or probably are part of the problem) while maybe they have three possible genetic components for dog DCM.

Somewhere else you asked about ProBNP--forgive me if I don't have that quite right--I have it done on my dogs when I do their annual blood panel--as an add on it's cheap--as a stand alone it's about three times as much. But there are definitely more than one school of thought when it comes to this test and how reliable it is in canines.

I really started this to pass the word along that some days I obviously can't type and when I said that on my first dog who was diagnosed with CHF and treated with Lasix and ultimately euthanized about 5 months after the diagnosis in 1988--that was a big FAT DUH!. That date should have be 1968 when he was 9 years old.

Mostly just more information on DCM in Dobermans and tests available and most economical way of having them done.

dobebug
This is fascinating stuff. There's so much to learn, but of course I think it's worth it. I am glad to know that the information over time is what's most valuable. I am an engineer by trade and if there's one thing I've learned it's that two dots makes a line! A few more dots and we've got a trend! I'm all for more information and analysis. I also like gadgets with bells and whistles, so it'll be engaging to keep learning and apply what I've learned with my next dog.

I'm also very grateful for the speed at which the veterinary community (and medical community) are learning about these conditions nowadays. I'm sure we all cross our fingers that there will be miracle cures out someday, but in the meantime there are a lot of very dedicated and passionate people putting in some serious hard work. That's the human race at its best in my opinion!


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Originally Posted by dobebug View Post
You had an honest to gawd water dog--I loved all the pictures but the one of Kady swimming reminded me of my one and only real water Doberman--a red male (my only red dog now that I think of it--I was in Sacramento when I had him and he grew up in the swimming pools and rivers around there. He swam like a fish and on summer some college kids taught him how to balance on a surf board--they did it in a pool in an apartment complex in Stockton and when they were playing with him in the pool (which, in theory he wasn't allowed to be in at all) it definitely raised eyebrows when people saw a big red dog on a surfboard.

Wonderful pictures.

Don't feel bad that you didn't know, what you didn't know. I learned a lot of what I know about medical issue with the Doberman because I hung out at dog shows and with veterinarians--and just plain luck.

And sudden death is a hard one to predict. One of my more recent dogs went that way (for the record I've had a lot of dogs between 1959 and today and while most of them had DCM only two of them actually died from cardio directly) The very first dog who was euthanized so he wouldn't drown because his lungs were filling with liquid because of DCM caused CHF. The dog I lost just a few years ago went via sudden death. He was a couple of months shy of 10 years. And we'd watched his Holter results become slowly more iffy--more VPC's--he was still running agility when the electrical issues really became noticible--I asked the cardiologist if I should stop running him in aglity. And I thought how much that dog would hate being a sit a home dog, doing nothing--the dog who loved agility--the cardiologist looked at me and pointed out that I knew the pospects for a dog like mine. Sudden death can occur no matter what you do or don't do--he was on appropriate medication for DCM itself but the electrical irregularities were as likely to kill him in his sleep, or while he was trotting around the back yard or riding in the truck as in an agility ring. So he went on going to agility trials with my friend who ran all my agility dogs--she came back from a trial one Saturday late morning and my dog came in to see what I was cutting up (tomatoes--he got a piece) and I let him out to get a drink and check the yard. After awhile my friend let him back in and I heard him sit behind me--that got my attention--that was not a dog who ever wasted time sitting. I grabbed his leash and hollered at my friend to call the clinic--the dogs sides were heaving--you could see the heart beat. I got him in the truck --he was standing in the back (inside the canopy) and about half way to the clinic (about 15 minutes away) he dropped like he'd been shot. I didn't even stop--I knew my dog was gone--five minutes later we were at the clinic--his vet was there with a stethoscope--she listened and shook her head.

I miss him to this day--it still makes me cry to tell the story but I wouldn't have traded his joy in the agility ring to keep him longer. He'd never have made a good patient he needed to go as he'd lived--balls out and having a great time doing something he wanted to do.

I'm not long on the concept of heaven and hell either--I figure my dog went where the good dogs go--where your Kady went--to feel well, run fast and be happy.

dobebug

There are just some things you can't predict no matter what you know--so I settle for doing the best I can and keeping up on medical progress in the vet field.
Thanks so much for sharing your experiences. Not only do they help me and others appreciate that we are not alone in this stuff, but that there are some things that remain out of our control. I think it's a super valuable message. Your agility boy sounds like he was happy and fulfilled. That's one gift we get to give back for all the love they bring into our lives!


Quote:
Originally Posted by LadyDi View Post
Chasing Butterflies!

Here is a song for my new friend Sam................this reminds me of your story !!!
Thinking of you and your girl today!!
This is adorable! Thanks so much LadyDi! I love it <3

Sam
Redondo Beach, CA
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post #34 of 37 (permalink) Old 07-16-2019, 07:25 PM
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There are lots of great threads on here that will help lift your spirits. A few of us got male pups around the same time and they are all very close in age.

My boy, Sugar, is 3 days younger than Axel. Sugar has his own thread which I havent updated in a long time. Must do that soon. My little boy is already 65 pounds but still loves to cuddle and sit in my lap!!
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Kin's Sweet Revenge aka Sugar December 31/18

Coco Loco RIP April 16/09 to December 21/18
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post #35 of 37 (permalink) Old 07-17-2019, 05:22 AM
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Your welcome!

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post #36 of 37 (permalink) Old 09-28-2019, 06:41 PM
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These pictures were just the best! What a splendid representation of a true companion in every way. I sure am late to the board in reading this.

"Lots of people talk to animals...Not very many listen, though...That's the problem. " ~ The Tao of Pooh
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post #37 of 37 (permalink) Old 09-30-2019, 01:24 PM
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Welcome to DT, your Kady was beautiful.

With DCM, there is no guarantee. What you can do is find a reputable breeder and at age two, start yearly holter and echocardiograms as they are the gold standard for early detection. I also have the Pro BNP done but my last Dobe's cardiologist said it is a more reliable test for cats than dogs (I will probably still have it done on my new boy). I have lost two Dobes to DCM with sudden death; one was 4 years and the second was 7 years so sadly, it can affect younger ones. If caught early though, chances are better at a longer survival with quality life. Alba Medical sells digital holter monitors to owners and although expensive upfront, the holter pays for itself in a couple of uses.
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Elaine


Indy RIP & Jalyn Live in the Moment "Helo Agathon"

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