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post #1 of 31 (permalink) Old 03-01-2020, 02:34 PM Thread Starter
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Crate Training without treats?

So my 5 mo is still not well crate trained, granted we did not focus on it in the early weeks as much as we should have, because Someone is home basically all the time with eyes on him. He sleeps with us as well.

Regardless, we have been trying consistently for the last several weeks to crate train when we do have to leave him alone, putting a Kong or long term chew and toys in there. We only leave 10-20mins at most right now.

The Kong is the only thing that keeps him quiet for the most part, we do not return to let him out of the crate until he stops crying so he does not think crying will get him let out.

Anyways... he’s had stomach issues causing consistently loose stool and for a day blood in his stool, we’ve ruled out everything down to him probably having a really sensitive stomach so the vet said no treats other than kibble, and to stop putting yogurt in his food. Well the kibble yogurt mix is what I always put in his Kong so now I don’t know what to do to soothe him and distract him in his crate😞 he doesn’t care about toys while in his crate. We have tried covering with a blanket and playing nice music, he still wails when I leave pretty much the whole time (I have a pet cam to keep track of him)

Any one have any idea what I can do for this ? 😭
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post #2 of 31 (permalink) Old 03-01-2020, 03:02 PM
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This workshop about crating is open for registration until March 5th. https://www.fenzidogsportsacademy.co.../courses/24677 The question submission period has ended, but you will get the original presentation video as well as the video where any questions are answered.

Fenzi Pet Professionals Program is geared more towards people who teach other people to train their dogs, but anyone can take the workshops.


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post #3 of 31 (permalink) Old 03-01-2020, 03:16 PM
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Wet your kibble till it swells, stuff the kong and freeze--or if that won't stay in, stuff it with wet kibble, seal it with a blob of wet/canned food at each end, and freeze, or use mostly canned food with a little kibble in it.

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post #4 of 31 (permalink) Old 03-01-2020, 05:07 PM
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Could you get a few cans of Science Diet i/d from your vet and freeze some of that in his kongs?

Its a prescription canned formula for dogs with digestive issues, so that might be okay. You might ask your vet about it. Not necessarily to totally switch him to it as a full-time food but just for something easy to smush in a kong and freeze.



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post #5 of 31 (permalink) Old 03-01-2020, 05:50 PM
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For digestive issues, try a limited ingredient diet with fiber. Avoid chicken and beef proteins. Try lamb or salmon with wholesome grains. Pumpkin can help too.

With respect to crate training, ignoring a dog whining is usually not a good idea because they get wound up even more. They also don't understand what you want from them. This causes stress. Stress leads to diarrhea. Try corrective measures if reward-base training doesn't work.

PS: I have a 5 m/o too and we've been dealing with diarrhea issues.

EDIT: Oh, and by the way, DO NOT feed your dog milk-based products, ex.: yogurt. Dogs are notorious for being lactose intolerant. (unless you know for a fact that your pup tolerates lactose)

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post #6 of 31 (permalink) Old 03-01-2020, 06:37 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yulie View Post
For digestive issues, try a limited ingredient diet with fiber. Avoid chicken and beef proteins. Try lamb or salmon with wholesome grains. Pumpkin can help too.

With respect to crate training, ignoring a dog whining is usually not a good idea because they get wound up even more. They also don't understand what you want from them. This causes stress. Stress leads to diarrhea. Try corrective measures if reward-base training doesn't work.

PS: I have a 5 m/o too and we've been dealing with diarrhea issues.

EDIT: Oh, and by the way, DO NOT feed your dog milk-based products, ex.: yogurt. Dogs are notorious for being lactose intolerant. (unless you know for a fact that your pup tolerates lactose)
Thank you🙂 We will be transitioning him to a salmon based limited ingredient food once he’s done with his round of medications and his stomach settles.

As for crate training, letting him cry in the small increments we do and not letting him out until he is quiet is something I will stick to. You have to teach your dog that they can self soothe. He knows he shouldn’t cry when in there, if I do walk into the room with his crate he completely stops crying, he doesn’t fear he is trapped. He is just stressed he’s not around me. He can sit in the crate all day with it closed as long as I’m in the room he doesn’t care, but when I leave he immediately cries. But teaching to self soothe with this method is a well known method. If I let him out or give him attention to his crying he will only continue to cry. I do reward him frequently when he is quiet on his own.

And I won’t be feeding yogurt anymore, we were doing it for probiotic sake and because Greek plain non fat yogurt has low lactose levels compared to other dairy, but his stomach is very sensitive it seems.

Thank you for the advice! In regards to the other comments as well, thank you for your advice, the vet did offer ID diet but we decided to let his medicine do it’s thing before spending the extra money on the diet if the meds will fix it alone. But I will look into getting some cans of it to see how his stomach handles it and maybe start using that as a kong filler thank you!!
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post #7 of 31 (permalink) Old 03-01-2020, 06:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Katlin Tarrer View Post
As for crate training, letting him cry in the small increments we do and not letting him out until he is quiet is something I will stick to. You have to teach your dog that they can self soothe. He knows he shouldn’t cry when in there, if I do walk into the room with his crate he completely stops crying, he doesn’t fear he is trapped. He is just stressed he’s not around me. He can sit in the crate all day with it closed as long as I’m in the room he doesn’t care, but when I leave he immediately cries. But teaching to self soothe with this method is a well known method. If I let him out or give him attention to his crying he will only continue to cry. I do reward him frequently when he is quiet on his own.
Dogs don't understand it. What is happening is your dog gets emotionally aroused which leads to stress. Eventually, he just gives up and starts up again the next time you put him in a crate and leave. If you don't address it, he does not understand what he is supposed to do and the issue continues to be unresolved. I allowed my pup to cry in the crate because I thought that ignoring it would eventually teach him to stop. What happened was that whining turned to barking and then to a full blown temper tantrum. Corrections solved the problem. At 5 months he sleeps for at least 6 hours per night. And I sleep too!

Correcting your dog will train him that crying in a crate is unacceptable behavior and he will stop doing it.

Anyways, I hope you guys figure it out. Good luck!

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post #8 of 31 (permalink) Old 03-01-2020, 07:32 PM
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There are some differing opinions concerning how to manage crate training here. If you glance at this thread, you will find a more complete discussion, including some links which go into even more details:

https://www.dobermantalk.com/doberma...-baby-way.html

It sounds like you're making progress, Katlin. You may not need to do much more than you are already doing, in terms of the technique you're using.

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post #9 of 31 (permalink) Old 03-01-2020, 08:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Katlin Tarrer View Post
So my 5 mo is still not well crate trained, granted we did not focus on it in the early weeks as much as we should have, because Someone is home basically all the time with eyes on him. He sleeps with us as well.

Regardless, we have been trying consistently for the last several weeks to crate train when we do have to leave him alone, putting a Kong or long term chew and toys in there. We only leave 10-20mins at most right now.

The Kong is the only thing that keeps him quiet for the most part, we do not return to let him out of the crate until he stops crying so he does not think crying will get him let out.

Anyways... he’s had stomach issues causing consistently loose stool and for a day blood in his stool, we’ve ruled out everything down to him probably having a really sensitive stomach so the vet said no treats other than kibble, and to stop putting yogurt in his food. Well the kibble yogurt mix is what I always put in his Kong so now I don’t know what to do to soothe him and distract him in his crate😞 he doesn’t care about toys while in his crate. We have tried covering with a blanket and playing nice music, he still wails when I leave pretty much the whole time (I have a pet cam to keep track of him)

Any one have any idea what I can do for this ? 😭
Katlin Tarrer >> welcome to DT, and your boy sounds very-very normal to me.
- some Dobe pups, will never like a crate // there I said it and we fine, with it
- we've had 3 pups since 1977, and the last 2 was completely trained at 4.5 months young...to be safe, home alone
- like your family, our pups sleep in the Master bed...and so they are supervisor'ed 24/7, for the most part

Our girls are babied & spoiled and talked with very much, so crate isolation is more like jail time.
- our 2nd girl, would cry non stop for 1.5 hours straight, until adult son came back from school
- she only stop crying if she was planning a crate escape / and one day she unlocked the cage door
- she was only 4.5 months young, and nothing destroyed
- next day when son went to HS, he left her on the expensive leather recliner
- came back 1.5 hours later, and all OK
- so she was given the freedoms early & never disappointed us

Last puppy was ""hell on wheels" prey drive, and I doubted my beginners luck.
- but we trained her the same exact way, and each toy had a Love name
- and with each toy, came rules & responsibility
- hard toys are for destroying
- soft stuffy toys, are for holding & soft bite...forbidden, is ripping out cotton balls
- the side effect of this training, from week1...couch blankets, pillows, oak coffee table legs are adult things...and treated with respect
- at 10 weeks old, Kelly was trained to help mom unload the cloth dryer
- she got to mouth one of dads socks or a pair of undies...and return to bedroom dressers, with mom
- so early on, she learned her toy, and mom & dad stuff
- now she loves to great mom, returning from office...holding her slipper, its so cute

^^ And the pup was tested at 4.5 months old, just like the last one.
- I come home, to a happy pup...and nothing wrecked
- her dog bed was a new leather sectional, and left alone with the TV on
- no crate setup, no baby gates, etc.

As far as soft stool problems, Kelly was plagued with this off & on for 6 years.
- she was on expensive kibble, but the meat protein was too high
- look for a 24% max. protein...trust me
- Kelly has perfect stools now, and her Liver is no longer over-taxed
- plus mom home cooks to, a Low Fat / High Carb diet // we spent a $1,000 to find this KSF
(white fish or salmon / corn flakes / sweet potato / hamburger / frozen veggies / white rice / spinach or kale / etc. >> week supply, cooked in a crock pot)
- never use Science Diet crap (Kelly throws up on it) / look for vet Royal Canine instead (she on Lot Fat Gastro-Intestinal)
- puppies always eat, +50% than adult weight guide-line feeding chart

Plus I do all my training without treats, I tried Kelly a few times at a reno. job site to go into a crate, she was not interested in a treat. Soon she was yelling & crying, until the grate door was opened.
- so I felt, screw that // crate rejection isn't something to stress over, just work around it
- I can train a pup to respect human belongings...and it was easy, with a watchful eye
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post #10 of 31 (permalink) Old 03-02-2020, 07:06 PM Thread Starter
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Thank you so much for all the advice!! I will continue with the crate as I need to, I tried the previously suggested kong filled with soaked kibble and he did great! I had to leave for an hour today and he did cry off and on but he calmed down a lot and played with his Kong☺️
I really appreciate the advice on tips for letting him have free range! I want to get there eventually but his is still nosey of our very very expensive home theater speakers so until he learns to stay away from those I don’t trust it 😅 I will continue teaching him what’s his and ours, and using his crate as necessary ☺️ I know he’ll probably never love it he’s just a Velcro dobie through and through but I have hopes it will get easier!
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post #11 of 31 (permalink) Old 03-02-2020, 07:30 PM
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You know your dog better than anyone else and have a plan. Congrats on your pup!
My dog Hoss was crate trained......but he liked to see what was going on ...so in turn we placed his crate in our TV area.
Thats was the center of all our activity and he could see into the master bedroom at night from his crate.
As Hoss matured we all seemed to settle into a routine.
You know, certain things happen at certain times.
So between a daily routine and being placed in a central area things Worked out real good “in time”.
And of course at 4 months they are still babies, shoot not that long ago they resided with their litter mates , so it will get better.
They learn that you will leave and you always return.
Crate training was important because of all the hurricanes in Florida and in the event Hoss might need to be crated at the Vets office.
I figured I would rather him adapt to a crate with me versus his first experience via vets office.

Hoss

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post #12 of 31 (permalink) Old 03-03-2020, 02:30 PM
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You can soak the kibble until it's mush, and use it that way. You can also try the canned I/D from the vet that brw1982 recommends, if your vet will prescribe it.

Dogs can eat yogurt, if they can tolerate it. Mine eat it all the time, along with cottage cheese, and a variety of other foods. Yours may be able to eat it after you figure out his digestive issues.

I disagree about letting him out when he whines - what that teaches a puppy is that when he whines, he gets out of the crate. Some whining with a young pup in the crate is normal. I'd recommend checking out the link Rosemary provided. I'd also start feeding regular meals in your pup's crate to create more positive associations in there. You can also search Susan Garrett's "Crate Games" for more ideas on how to teach your pup to like his crate.

Have you tried covering the crate? Or, if it's covered, uncovering it? Check out Mel's link, too.

You'll get there. Patience is key!
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post #13 of 31 (permalink) Old 03-03-2020, 03:13 PM
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I would also add to make sure your behavior is calm when letting him out of the crate, and not letting him dash out. When you get home, don't greet him or make a fuss. When you open the crate, make sure he doesn't leave the crate until you say so and he can calmly exit. Doing crate drills as practice can also help desensitize him to the crate and help him learn that getting in and out of the crate is no big deal.
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post #14 of 31 (permalink) Old 03-03-2020, 03:25 PM
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After you open the door, you can give him a treat then, while he is calm and before he is allowed out. Or give him a treat and your attention even before you open the door if he's staying reasonably calm when you go near the crate. If he tries to charge out, use your body to block the doorway or close the door in his face. Have a key word/command you use to tell him he needs to stay in the crate and then one to release him--my old standby "wait" and my release word "OK" makes sense, because I use the same thing to keep him from dashing out a door, or jumping out of the car, or similar things.

Once you've let him out, just be calm and matter of fact around him. You don't need to go through a big greeting thing, and you don't want to treat him right away--then you're rewarding the wrong thing.

The same thing applies to a stay. You reward while they are obeying the order--the stay--and then go on with your ordinary business after you've released them.
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post #15 of 31 (permalink) Old 03-03-2020, 06:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MeadowCat View Post
You can soak the kibble until it's mush, and use it that way. You can also try the canned I/D from the vet that brw1982 recommends, if your vet will prescribe it.

Dogs can eat yogurt, if they can tolerate it. Mine eat it all the time, along with cottage cheese, and a variety of other foods. Yours may be able to eat it after you figure out his digestive issues.

I disagree about letting him out when he whines - what that teaches a puppy is that when he whines, he gets out of the crate. Some whining with a young pup in the crate is normal. I'd recommend checking out the link Rosemary provided. I'd also start feeding regular meals in your pup's crate to create more positive associations in there. You can also search Susan Garrett's "Crate Games" for more ideas on how to teach your pup to like his crate.

Have you tried covering the crate? Or, if it's covered, uncovering it? Check out Mel's link, too.

You'll get there. Patience is key!
About yogurt and/or cottage cheese. My dogs all are fed either yogurt or cottage cheese as a regular additive to their regular meals. (Breakfast addition) and have never had problems with a puppy who couldn'r eat either.

One of our vet tech's shed some light on that for me and the vet who was listening to the conversation added a little more information.

Our vet tech was lactose intolerant. Very. And while she couldn't drink milk or each ice cream she could eat yogurt or cottage chess without having to take the pills that a lot of lactose intolerant people need to take to be able to handle any milk product.

Her doctor said that because yogurt andcottage cheese are actually a partially processed milk products most people, even those who are very lactose intolerant can handle both of them.

That vet--who is our nutritionist--said that it is also true of dogs--and even cats.

So I wouldn't stop giving yogurt or cottage chess unless there is some reason that your puppy seems be to reacting to it.

I'm another one who doesn't let puppies out of crates if they are crying, whining, barking or generally having a hissy fit. When they stop having a melt down then they get to come out. I've got 60 years of raising puppies and all of them except the first two were crate trained. After those two crates got a lot less expensive and since I've been showing my dogs since the first they are now all crate trained. But I remember the day of having to stand and hold my dogs at shows because the only people who had crates if you go back far enough were the professional handlers.

Some puppies just take longer than others to get the message.

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post #16 of 31 (permalink) Old 03-05-2020, 07:40 PM Thread Starter
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Thank you all for the advice! I guess I just need to wait it out,
In an attempt to try and respond to all of you:
I do cover his crate with a blanket, I have also tried without but doesn't make much difference, and letting him see what's going on doesn't really phase him bc he's usually I'm his crate because I'm leaving anyways so not much to see lol.
I have fed him in his crate since day one of getting him home at 9 weeks to try and create that positive association as well.
I also agree that he should be fine in yogurt bc it is processed differently (I know that but I didn't wanna deal with trying to argue the vet over it for telling me he can't have it bc it's dairy&#x1f602 but i think I'm still gonna wait until his stomach issues have settled before returning it to his diet.
Overall, based on your comments I think I've done everything I need to and just need to keep at it. Hopefully it gets better with time!
Thanks so much💛
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post #17 of 31 (permalink) Old 03-05-2020, 08:48 PM
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Oh....another thought...if he is at all a chewer, be careful that he can't manage to get ahold of the blanket through the bars. You don't want him to be able to get pieces of it off to swallow.
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post #18 of 31 (permalink) Old 03-06-2020, 10:15 AM
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Thank you all for the advice! I guess I just need to wait it out,
In an attempt to try and respond to all of you:
I do cover his crate with a blanket, I have also tried without but doesn't make much difference, and letting him see what's going on doesn't really phase him bc he's usually I'm his crate because I'm leaving anyways so not much to see lol.
I have fed him in his crate since day one of getting him home at 9 weeks to try and create that positive association as well.
I also agree that he should be fine in yogurt bc it is processed differently (I know that but I didn't wanna deal with trying to argue the vet over it for telling me he can't have it bc it's dairy&#x1f602 but i think I'm still gonna wait until his stomach issues have settled before returning it to his diet.
Overall, based on your comments I think I've done everything I need to and just need to keep at it. Hopefully it gets better with time!
Thanks so much💛
I just want to reassure you that it DOES get better and some puppies are harder to crate train than others. Keep it up. Sometimes you just need to hear that you're doing things right and this, too, shall pass!
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post #19 of 31 (permalink) Old 03-06-2020, 11:42 AM
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Update on poopz:

Per vet's advice with respect to diarrhea, we switched to lamb and rice recipe and I experimented with different brands to see what works best. My pup has always done well on Taste of the Wild, and TotW has come up with lamb and ancestral grains recipe for all life stages, including 70+lbs. dogs. Nutro lamb + rice for large breed puppies did not work out, it gave him yellow loose stool.

Lately, I've been feeding him Farmina N&D lamb with ancestral grains + blueberry formula. It's an Italian brand, AAFCO statement included, sold on Chewy. It gave us solid brown poopz and we'll be sticking with it for the foreseeable future.

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post #20 of 31 (permalink) Old 03-06-2020, 04:22 PM
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Update on poopz:

Per vet's advice with respect to diarrhea, we switched to lamb and rice recipe and I experimented with different brands to see what works best. My pup has always done well on Taste of the Wild, and TotW has come up with lamb and ancestral grains recipe for all life stages, including 70+lbs. dogs. Nutro lamb + rice for large breed puppies did not work out, it gave him yellow loose stool.

Lately, I've been feeding him Farmina N&D lamb with ancestral grains + blueberry formula. It's an Italian brand, AAFCO statement included, sold on Chewy. It gave us solid brown poopz and we'll be sticking with it for the foreseeable future.
That's interesting Yulie. I've had such consistently bad luck with any lamb based kibble that I stopped even trying it many years ago.

I tried it many years ago when it first appeared in the market place as the answer to allergy problems since in the 60's when it first showed up and was recommended the only common meats used for kibble were beef, chicken and horsemeat. Lamb was a novel protein and recommended for dogs suspected of having food allergies. Over the years I tried lamb three different times--the first was one that had rice as the carb component, the second try was with (I think, a lentle carb and the third was with pea).

I had the same issue with all three--less than six weeks of feeding any of them the Dobe's coats looked bad and it was very hard to keep weight on them--and if I gave more food to deal with the weight loss they ended up with soft stools and sometimes diarrhea.

Just recently someone posted some information about digestability of various protein's in kibble and how it affected the use of the the kibble in terms of maintenance. Turned out the lamb is ranked as the least digestable of animal protein and chicken and salmon rated the highest. So all these years later I finally had a reasonable explanation of why the coats and weight issues I found linked to lamb.

Of course not all dogs respond well to the same formulas but I've pretty much used Focus ProPlan Sensitive Skin and Stomach (it's actually a salmon and rice formula for many years now) it's worked well for me. The one dog it wasn't working for did well on the Focus Chicken and Rice formulas.

It tends to make me happy when something I found from application turned out, when science caught up with it, to be backed by newer studies.

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post #21 of 31 (permalink) Old 03-06-2020, 04:46 PM
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Dobebug,

I read that chicken and beef are the least digestible proteins because they are considered "hard" proteins. Salmon is one of the easiest to digest and lamb is also good. Maybe, some lamb based kibble is better than others. My pup had a bad reaction to Nutro lamb and rice and is doing well on Farmina. He also liked Salmon and Oatmeal recipe for puppies from Canidae PURE, but the Canidae formula is only sold in 4 lb bags.

When I got my pup, I switched him from Purina ProPlan to Orijen for large puppies. He finished the first 20+ lb. bag with no problems, and started having the sh**ts on the 2nd bag. Since then, I went through an impressive collection of kibble in search of the one that works. My vet said that it's a trial and error when it comes with sensitive stomachs.

I normally stay away from multi-protein kibble because they are too potent for sensitive stomachs.

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post #22 of 31 (permalink) Old 03-06-2020, 04:50 PM
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Quote:
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Dobebug,

I read that chicken and beef are the least digestible proteins because they are considered "hard" proteins. Salmon is one of the easiest to digest and lamb is also good. (Who knows?) Maybe, some lamb based kibble is better than others. My pup had a bad reaction to Nutro lamb and rice and is doing well on Farmina. He also liked Salmon and Oatmeal recipe for puppies from Canidae PURE, but the Canidae formula is only sold in 5 lb bags.

When I got my pup, I switched him from Purina ProPlan to Orijen for large puppies. He finished the first 20+ lb. bag with no problems, and started having the sh**ts on the 2nd bag. Since then, I went through an impressive collection of kibble in search of the one that works. My vet said that it's a trial and error when it comes with sensitive stomachs.
Why did you switch off Proplan? Many many Dobermans do wonderfully on it and it meets WSAVA guidelines for food. It's especially hard on puppies to be switched from the food the breeder is feeding too soon.
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post #23 of 31 (permalink) Old 03-06-2020, 05:04 PM
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Why did you switch off Proplan? Many many Dobermans do wonderfully on it and it meets WSAVA guidelines for food. It's especially hard on puppies to be switched from the food the breeder is feeding too soon.
I didn't switch too soon, it was overtime and I fed him a mix of Purina and Orijen for about 14 days after we got him. He never had diarrhea issues from switching. We wanted to feed him higher quality food.
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post #24 of 31 (permalink) Old 03-06-2020, 05:05 PM
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Quote:
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Dobebug,

I read that chicken and beef are the least digestible proteins because they are considered "hard" proteins. Salmon is one of the easiest to digest and lamb is also good. Maybe, some lamb based kibble is better than others. My pup had a bad reaction to Nutro lamb and rice and is doing well on Farmina. He also liked Salmon and Oatmeal recipe for puppies from Canidae PURE, but the Canidae formula is only sold in 4 lb bags.

When I got my pup, I switched him from Purina ProPlan to Orijen for large puppies. He finished the first 20+ lb. bag with no problems, and started having the sh**ts on the 2nd bag. Since then, I went through an impressive collection of kibble in search of the one that works. My vet said that it's a trial and error when it comes with sensitive stomachs.

I normally stay away from multi-protein kibble because they are too potent for sensitive stomachs.
This is a good post on the digestibility of different proteins. https://thesciencedog.com/2017/02/01...ility-matters/

I've never had a dog do really well on any lamb based kibble. And I tried a LOT of different brands with dogs of different breeds/mixes. They always wound up with noxious gas and dry, flaky skin. With my GSD, I seem to have the best luck with salmon based kibble (Pro Plan has been the best, IMO).


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post #25 of 31 (permalink) Old 03-06-2020, 05:29 PM
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This is a good post on the digestibility of different proteins. https://thesciencedog.com/2017/02/01...ility-matters/

I've never had a dog do really well on any lamb based kibble. And I tried a LOT of different brands with dogs of different breeds/mixes. They always wound up with noxious gas and dry, flaky skin. With my GSD, I seem to have the best luck with salmon based kibble (Pro Plan has been the best, IMO).
I read this: https://www.petcarerx.com/article/wh...gs-is-best/846.

It all basically comes down to what works best for your dog.
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