Can you come back after bad ecollar training? - Doberman Forum : Doberman Breed Dog Forums
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post #1 of 14 (permalink) Old 02-05-2020, 10:53 AM Thread Starter
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Question Can you come back after bad ecollar training?

My 8 month old doberman has had an ecollar for about two-three months now. I honestly have only used it to teach him to come, when I have to say no multiple times, if he chases the cats and on the lowest setting when we are training on the leash. Me and my husband cannot come to an agreement though, my husband thinks he should shock him every time that he does something, sniffs the counter at food (shock), whining in cage (shock), running into the house (shock). I have no idea how to make him understand that this is not how you train the dog. I need help training my pup to not do these things so that my husband won't feel the need to shock him. I guess food encouragement is the way to go. But if I did want to lightly train him on the ecollar I worry he has already been shocked too high that he is going to freak out and run if I even use it the correct way now. My husband thinks that it needs to be on a high setting as well because some "trainer" told him that. I have watched videos of other trainers and they say how to do it properly, on the lowest setting possible, etc, etc. I absolutely love my dog and I think he has been pretty damn awesome besides those couple of issues. HELP please!
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post #2 of 14 (permalink) Old 02-05-2020, 11:24 AM
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JMO an e-collar has no place on an 8 month old puppy. I would get involved with a local dog training club for puppy/beginner obedience classes. You will both need a different mindset if you want him to be happy. Puppies need positive reinforcement and conditioning! Example, instead of shocking him for showing interest in the cat, teach him "watch me" and give lots of treats when the cat is in view and you have his attention, and slowly build up to the cat being in close proximity. You will likely need to work with a trainer on this.
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post #3 of 14 (permalink) Old 02-05-2020, 11:50 AM
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That was a very good reply Greenie ! Like Greenie - You really need to take the pup and you to OB classes . These classes are to train you , so you can train the pup .

As far as chasing cats - Is your pup in a fenced in area ? and just chasing a cat walking by the fence ? OR inside your house and it's game on ?

As far as E-collar - Have never had to use one to train any of our Dobermans ( since 1981 ) It takes time - lots of work ad Patience - key work Patience ! to train a puppy - Trust me here - I have had a couple to try me - lol But we held our line and just kept working with them .

Training also builds a bond between you two - you work as a team - you both learn about each other .

I personally think that at a young age - they just don't know what there getting shocked for - But working with them hand in hand - they pick that up quicker

Quote from Greenie uppies need positive reinforcement and conditioning!

Great statemenet + Praise ! They love Praise ! When ever Mr. Business and I are working - every time he does something - anything - he's doing right -- he get's high praise and it works - there is nothing a Doberman loves to here than he's a good , good boy OR good, good girl with a rub- pat or both .

Ditch the ecollar and work one on one - in the end - you will be very happy with you Doberson

Doc
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post #4 of 14 (permalink) Old 02-05-2020, 12:18 PM
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IMO, I still do not have my dobe (will be getting her this summer) but I have done a lot of research and do dog training. I personally like the ecollar and found that with proper usage, it can be used to train behaviors and gain understanding from dogs at a more rapid pace. I will stress that the ecollar has to be used properly, like any tool. If you and your husband are not on the same page, and if the ecollar is not being used properly, then I would say not to use it. It will only create confusion and fear (if the dog does not know what he is being tapped for). The ecollar can have amazing results if everyone is on board and if it is used properly, if not, don't bother. Shocking a dog without it being tied to a command just creates confusion and will not yield positive results. You can and should also pair ecollar training with praise when they do the correct behavior. The ecollar should not be a punishment, it is a communication tool (tap means pay attention to the handler). For the behaviors at home, have you tried tethering the dog to you? It is an easy way to get the dog to understand to look to you for direction and pay attention to you. Keep the dog on a short leash and either carry it or tie it to you whenever you are in the home; the mindset behind doing that is, everything will come from you (you decide when to move, when to relax, what to do, etc). Hope that helps!
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post #5 of 14 (permalink) Old 02-05-2020, 01:03 PM
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I disagree with most that young dogs can't be in ecollars or other training collars. BUT it's borderline abusive if you aren't well versed on how to use these tools and can permanently alter your dogs personality and confidence.

All breeds train differently and Dobermans train VERY differently than most. Shepherds can take a shock and keep on keeping on. Mals will unequivocally let you know if you have given them an unfair correction lol and keep on working. Dobermans are SUPER sensitive to corrections and many will shut down and stop working if the correction is too much. If your husband wants your dog to be super afraid of everything and piss itself if a stranger breaks into your house, then you can use his method of training. Personally that's not how I like to raise my dogs, I love confidence and protective dogs. My first advice is that you should be working with a trainer when using an ecollar and one that knows Dobermans but I'll help you as much as I can but that's hard to do over the internet:

1. You NEVER use the ecollar or ANY sort of correction EVER until the dog KNOWS, BEYOND ANY REASONABLE DOUBT, that they are doing something wrong. This requires you to train them that they are to not do something. And then train them again, and then train them 100 more times so that they know. This isn't all punishment because they also need to know what is the RIGHT thing to do and retrain that over and over.

2. Then you need to give them the option to listen to you. Often times they are in too high of prey or play drives to listen right away. My dogs always get a "no", and a vibration (this gives them time to think and respond) and then a shock. The first time I shock it's very low, enough to be uncomfortable but very low. I gradually increase the levels as the dog learns the process until I get to a level that tells them to never do something. I RARELY have to shock my dog but when I do they generally don't want it to happen again. I NEVER just shock the crap out of a dog for something it doesn't know even if it IS something they shouldn't do, EVER! A rule of thumb is, if you won't shock yourself at a level then you shouldn't shock your dog at that level either.

Your puppy is in a VERY vulnerable age, more so than most ages. It's in it's preteens and trying to discover what kind of dog it will mature to be. It needs to make bad decisions and it needs you to guide it. If you shock it for everything you're only going to create an extremely fearful dog. Dobermans need a huge amount of confidence building and one on one playing with their owners. being constantly told "no" or shocked can really break them down.

Thank you for coming here and asking for advice. I hope your husband will listen and that the dog won't have to learn from your husband's mistakes. Just an FYI my background is in obedience, protection, and agility among other sports so I know a thing or two about these things.
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post #6 of 14 (permalink) Old 02-05-2020, 01:27 PM
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One thing I want to add is I train my puppies to "leave it". If they want something off the counter, "leave it", if they want to play with another dog, "leave it". It teaches them some self control and it's rewarding.

I generally start them in a down and I put a treat close enough to them that they can reach it but close enough to me that I can grab it fast. I say "leave it", of course they won't at first so you'll have to pick it up, put them back in a down and start over. The first time they "leave it" I give them another treat. I NEVER give them the treat that is the "leave it" treat. Then I slowly progress to moving the treat closer and closer to the dog and I eventually will put it on their paws. Kya's funny she looks at the treat like it disgusts her lol. Then I progress to even offering a treat to them and saying "leave it", then to other people offering my dog a treat while I say "leave it".

Two reason I like this behavior. 1)It teaches the dog self control. 2)It teaches the dog to always listen to me and it will be rewarded. I don't want my dogs to listen to me for fear of being punished. I want them listening to me for hope of a reward. Dogs are infinitely positive breed and work harder, and happier for rewards. Do you go to your job every day because of fear of getting fired? Or do you go for the hope of a paycheck every so many days/weeks? Same applies to dogs.
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post #7 of 14 (permalink) Old 02-05-2020, 01:28 PM
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G-Red - this is why I'm disagreeing with you disagreeing with the other disagreers -

You NEVER use the ecollar or ANY sort of correction EVER until the dog KNOWS, BEYOND ANY REASONABLE DOUBT, that they are doing something wrong.

Just an FYI my background is in obedience, protection, and agility among other sports so I know a thing or two about these things.


The second quote is why . You know what your doing - or anyway I think you probably do One trainer We went to was asked about ecollars by someone in class - She said , like you - IF used correctly they can help -- BUT you will need training in using them - btw - she offered a short class on them . Your a trainer G , so you can make it look easy .

One other thing - that is why I posted they may not know what they are shocked for - like you said : NOWS, BEYOND ANY REASONABLE DOUBT, that they are doing something wrong. Which was what I was trying to say .

Like I said - I never used one - so I have no comment ass to what they can do , but can see they could hurt if used wrong : )

Enjoy reading your pots G-Red

Doc
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post #8 of 14 (permalink) Old 02-05-2020, 01:39 PM
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Even within the breed there's different types of dobes. My Gretchen was a tough one. You could watch her thinking if the shock is worth getting into the garbage can or doing whatever it was that she knew she shouldn't do. Mav rarely gets a shock. He has to be in super high prey drive. Kya's never even worn an ecollar. She's super sensitive. A loud "no" and she get so upset that I might be mad at her lol. I have to be very soft in my corrections on her which are few and far between and rarely more than an "ack" or a "no". She's never ran away from me when called, which is funny because her mom was well known for being a runner.
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post #9 of 14 (permalink) Old 02-05-2020, 01:54 PM
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G-Red - I have a question for yeah But I if I remember right -- your a single parent - you have your rules as to what the kids can and can not do , So wouldn't it be harder for a family - with both parents trying to train there kid what was right from wrong ? Like one thinks one thing is OK and the other gives the dog a buzz for the same thing ? which could add to confusion on the dogs part ?

I'm just asking

Doc
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post #10 of 14 (permalink) Old 02-05-2020, 02:38 PM
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Family consistency--

Can be a big problem.

I believe (there are lots of places where this is flexible, but in general) that one person should do the first basic training for each behavior (different people can teach different things)--one person starts the dog learning what he is supposed to do with various commands, sets up (with the family, as well as teaching the dog) what the expectations are for a particular command or behavior. The same person comes up with the rewards and the consequences for misbehavior.

The other people enforce the command, making sure they are consistent with what the dog's initial trainer wants to allow and reward, with what they should do if the dog misbehaves, and with what the trainer chooses in terms of the dog's limits and "what he is allowed to get away with."

If there are disagreements about that, the people negotiate how they want the dog to respond and what they should do if he doesn't; they don't impose different standards for the dog to try to figure out. If the dog has to puzzle about what is "good" behavior, and worry about what happens if he doesn't obey (especially if bad things happen if he doesn't "guess" right), he will only develop a hesitancy to act on a command and a fear of being punished.

Obviously there is a time overlap before a dog learns what is expected of him, but to me, the initial introduction of a dog to a particular command goes a little more smoothly if the same person is handling that training.
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post #11 of 14 (permalink) Old 02-05-2020, 10:15 PM
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Originally Posted by ECIN View Post
G-Red - I have a question for yeah But I if I remember right -- your a single parent - you have your rules as to what the kids can and can not do , So wouldn't it be harder for a family - with both parents trying to train there kid what was right from wrong ? Like one thinks one thing is OK and the other gives the dog a buzz for the same thing ? which could add to confusion on the dogs part ?

I'm just asking

Doc
I am currently a one family house but I haven't always been. I am however, always the trainer. No one is allowed to train my dogs. If my boyfriend gets a dog, that is his dog to train. I often have roommates and they're told they can tell my dogs no and redirect them but that's it.
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post #12 of 14 (permalink) Old 02-06-2020, 04:46 AM
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Thought this might give you some back up as you deal with your partner regarding training conflicts.



Humans need to be taught first the techniques of e collar usage.
If this is the route you are going find a good trainer.
Good luck with your pup.
Never to late to adjust when you see that something is not working for you.

Larry Krohn has several videos in this area that will back up the importance of proper training as you are dealing with your partner.

Take a look at some of the different videos by Larry Krohn .....study them ......then show the videos to your partner and he will have a better understanding of the case you are presenting to him.

This MIGHT help you make your point regarding appropriate use of e collars.
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post #13 of 14 (permalink) Old 02-06-2020, 10:16 AM
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I've been trying to think about how to answer your question thoughtfully.

What I want to address first and foremost is that being on the same page about training, for the most part, is pretty important. I think it would be really helpful for you both to meet with a really qualified trainer. A GOOD trainer that is well-versed in all types of training is not going to advocate turning an e-collar to the highest setting and correcting a puppy for behavior that has not been solidly trained. I think it would be super helpful for you both to sit down and have the trainer explain what reasonable expectations are for behavior in a pup at this stage of life (adolescence), what tools (like e-collars) can and can't achieve, and, most importantly, what kind of relationship you want to build with your dog.

I'm not against e-collars. They can be used correctly, but like any tool, they can damage your relationship with your dog. I want my dogs to see me as a leader, but what I consider leadership is clearly showing them my expectations and making it very easy for them to understand what those are, and making it fun and happy to meet my expectations. It's like having a good boss at a job, right? If your boss explains exactly what they expect you to do, lays it out really clearly in easy to understand steps, and they rewards you with a great paycheck, you're really happy to work there, right? And, let's say, after you work there for a while and you really, really understand your job, you make a big mistake. The best boss would give you the most gentle "correction" possible, right? Just enough to remind you to do your job the way you know how to do it. You don't need to be punched in the face so hard you fall down, you just need to be reminded enough to get back on track.

To me...an e-collar needs to be used with finesse. I never want to lose the trust of my dogs. The behaviors you describe are normal behaviors from an adolescent that simply hasn't been trained not to do them. Receiving a high level correction for them may cause fallout - a dog that shuts down, is fearful, anxious. He may associate the correction with something else in the environment.

Honestly, in your situation, I would stop using an e-collar at all, unless you can work with a good trainer and get on the same page. I worry about the potential for harm to your dog.


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post #14 of 14 (permalink) Old 02-15-2020, 07:31 AM
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Can you come back after bad ecollar training?

sounds like you both need some work on HOW to use an E-collar correctly and more training methods. May I suggest you check into "SolidK9Training with Jeff Gellman... If he can't make your like with your dog MORE enjoyable... NO ONE CAN.
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