My new now 8mo Dobe got seriously picked on by my long time GSD, how to proceed? - Doberman Forum : Doberman Breed Dog Forums
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post #1 of 24 (permalink) Old 07-17-2019, 05:30 PM Thread Starter
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My new now 8mo Dobe got seriously picked on by my long time GSD, how to proceed?

I moved this from end of old thread I had started since it is a new topic and the old one probably seems complete to everyone on the thread...

Hey Dobe advisors, I’m back

So remember one of you guys advised to be careful of toys with the new now 8 month old Dobe girl and my older GSD girl. I replied that outdoors the older dog’s favorite game is tug of war with another dog, so I will leave toys for that, and indoors I don’t allow any toys out if both girls are out of their crates, which they seldom are for long because the Dobe is still such a big baby pest at 8 months old she wants to climb over the GSD on the couch and wrestle and play fight so to save the GSD from the annoyance I let them take turns with limited time out together indoors.

The GSD has been INCREDIBLY tolerant of the Dobe, for months now. If anything it almost looks like she is letting herself be subordinated to big baby PIA Layla, but in my heart of hearts I have known that Onyx could kick the ____ out of Layla— she’s huge and very dense weight. She has inadvertently pinned me snuggling on the couch and she is so heavy I would not be able to get up if she didn’t want me to. Point is this is a lot of dog, authentic old German working lines, not your average GSD. Fortunately with humans she was taught by her original owner/breeder/trainer to know her place and lives in DREAD of displeasing me, she is hyper vigilant/worried about upsetting her person round the clock. I make sure to enforce my alpha-ness daily but it’s so instilled in her from before I got her, it’s not a worry. But she has always been an alpha bitch and a pretty edgy one with some dogs, so she has been being very VERY patient w Layla, saint-like patience for Onyx.

Onyx’s Achilles heel is that she was left crated 22 to 24 hours a day except for training, w previous breeder/owner/trainer and when she would get out, a toy was used to bring up her drive for the training. So she has a true obsession with having something in her mouth most of the time: ball, toy, stick.. something.. and with toys in general. Still she has been sharing toys and playing games with them with Layla for months now, no problem.. As I said tug of war and chase for toy is Onyx’s favorite game and they will do it for hours.

So I got this more fancy deluxe toy specifically for them to play tug of war. I guess it had more bling than usual because it was the first thing Onyx ever challenged Layla on. She didn’t want to share it. An unexpected very brief show of force from Onyx and some yelping from Layla, and I took it away immediately. After some days had passed I left it out so it would lose it’s novelty and become boring. SO now the thing has been laying around the house, and sometimes in Onyx’s crate. Trying to think if it was even laying around the yard for days.. I think it was, so it’s been out there for them both. I suppose in hindsight Onyx was actually still guarding it..

So they went out at night to potty (they are usually indoors by then unless a bathroom break), I am on the porch, when suddenly all hell breaks loose. They start seriously fighting. Onyx had taken the toy out of her crate earlier and I suspect it was that. She would not listen to me to stop fighting so I started heading to the hose, but eventually I was able to let Layla in who was very traumatized but essentially unhurt, a tiny speck of blood on her ear and leg, little bit faint scratches. After a bit I let Onyx in— she had the toy and brought to her crate. This morning I took it away, I should have taken it away right away.

Onyx was still making eyes at her, not acting herself, from her crate. Layla was nearly inconsolable and just very forlorn and droopy, so I left Onyx crated and comforted Layla. Today they are slowly snapping out of it, but I will not let them out at the same time until they look 200% normalized.

I know this post is getting long, but I wanted you to know they are best friends, Onyx really loves having Layla in her life, Layla is so into Onyx the first thing she does is go to her crate when she is let out in the morning so I will let Onyx out next.

I know dogs need to establish the pecking order and Onyx has been real patient to the point of putting up with a lot of annoyance form the giant baby in a big body (there is only so much I can do to buffer that if they are to adjust to eachother and “work it out”).

How would you now proceed with these two? They play in the yard for hours every day. We go on a hike together twice a day and they love it.. but I feel I should keep them separate until their body language with eachother is 100 % normal. I do hear stories of some dogs never making up after a serious fight ( Layla didn’t fight she just yelped and wanted to get away I think). I know both being girls is not a plus, but I just didn’t want another potentially super dog aggressive male Dobe like my last one (who Onyx was afraid of for awhile)— the males can be more like that.

The fact that Layla was almost unscathed after what seemed a horrifying eternity of serious fighting in the dark that I was trying to break up, seems to indicate that Onyx did not want to really hurt her. She could have really hurt her if she wanted to

I think these guys like eachother enough they will snap back from it just wondering how you guys would proceed.

Btw I do manage these guys constantly, trying to be skillful in helping them adjust to eachother. I don’t just leave them do whatever unsupervised, the dynamic between them is fairly micro-managed since Layla is still the new kid on the block.. just was not expecting that. I may not let them out to potty in the dark together anymore based on this experience, even with the porch light on I couldn’t see very well what the heck was going on. If it had been day time I may have seen something subtle leading up to it and avoided the whole thing
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post #2 of 24 (permalink) Old 07-17-2019, 09:33 PM
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This is a good question and well articulated, I think you did a good job of explaining the situation. I know there are people here that will have good advice, but I've been a one-dog man for a long time. I'll be interested to see replies as well. All the best to you and your dogs!
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post #3 of 24 (permalink) Old 07-17-2019, 09:51 PM
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Many dogs will give a "puppy pass" to puppies and adolescent dogs, but you are rapidly approaching an age with your younger bitch where that is no longer going to be the case. Since you say your older bitch has had issues with other dogs, and she's also showing signs of resource guarding, in *my* house, I would absolutely NOT allow them to be playing tug games, and I would NOT have any high value toys out, ever, unsupervised. That's just asking for trouble.

You have to remember that many dogs are not dog social - it's actually quite common. This is a really great read, with diagrams, of the normal scale of dog sociability: https://badrap.org/training-resources/dogdog-tolerance. Your older bitch is likely falling into the normal range of dog selective, and may lean towards the dog aggressive side of the scale. That doesn't mean in any way that she's a bad dog, it's just who she is. Same sex aggression isn't uncommon in our breed. We see it a lot more in males, but it happens in females, too.

I would be working hard to set up the girls' environment to make sure that there aren't "triggers" that may set off a fight. Resource guarding is a really, really natural behavior in dogs. That doesn't mean it's not something to work on, but it also means that we have to be aware of it and make sure that if we have dogs prone to resource guarding, as well as dogs that may be more prone to be edgy or to be more likely to get into fights, that we don't add "fuel to the fire," so to speak. My first bitch was a pretty bad resource guarder. We had almost no toys out all the time - only low value toys. Higher value toys had to be given only when both dogs were supervised. VERY high value things like chews could only be given when both dogs were crated - why risk an issue? Just not worth it. I also do recommend Jean Donaldson's book "Mine! A Practical Guide to Resource Guarding in Dogs." It's a great step by step guide to working on resource guarding.

Those are my initial thoughts. It's hard to say at this stage how much management the girls will need. Your younger girl is still a pup. It's too soon to say what her adult temperament will be like and how they will interact as adults, but there are definitely things you can set in place now to prevent issues from starting.


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post #4 of 24 (permalink) Old 07-17-2019, 10:00 PM
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Hi Critter...

Your most important question: "How would you now proceed with these two?".

This is just my opinion, yet I have had several same sex Doberman households. You already have had a warning. Take it seriously.

Your GSD girl gave your Dobe girl a "puppy pass". It's gone now. You will just have to deal with it.

Trust me... I've been there. They, when together need to have hands on attention.

After such an altercation, your girls should should never be left alone together except under very close supervision.

You cannot trust them together. Ever...

More importantly, you need to figure out what to do if they get into real fight.

Been there and done that. Not fun. You need a plan.

It is an issue.

PM me if you want specifics.
John
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post #5 of 24 (permalink) Old 07-17-2019, 10:21 PM
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I just read MeadowCat's post. So what she said^^^.

I am going to add on:

Dobermans, even bitches, are powerful dogs. Their medium size (65-90lb.) belies their strength and tenacity.

A Dobe in full defensive or aggressive "fighting" mode is something that the average person is hard pressed to deal with.

I know what I am talking about.

I Have mentioned this before, several times, but it is worth repeating...

Years ago, I had 2 boys, about 2 years apart. Best of friends. Shared everything, They would rest in the same day bed together. Drank out of the same water bowl at the same time. Never any resource guarding.

One night, the younger boy (5yo.), out of the blue, decided that his older brother (7+yo.) needed to die.

Why? I have no idea.

They had to be completely separated for years until the older boy passed.

In the interim, trying to keep them from killing each other, I was badly injured.

Be careful...

John
Portland
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post #6 of 24 (permalink) Old 07-17-2019, 10:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 4x4bike ped View Post
I just read MeadowCat's post. So what she said^^^.

John
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Great minds think alike, John!

John knows what he's talking about here...he has experience with same-sex aggression and is a good resource.


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post #7 of 24 (permalink) Old 07-17-2019, 10:55 PM
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Well.. While we are on the subject.

My adult son has a Dobe, pushing 10yo. He was very ill as a young pup and never very well socialized.

He is a very sweet dog. Over the years he has spent much of his life with me. He and my boy, McCoy, get along pretty well. McCoy and The Sheriff are allowed to interact and even play fairly roughly, as Dobermans do. Still, they are NEVER allowed to be together without close and hands on supervision. If they are in the same house and nobody is home, they are separated. No harm. No foul.

During an average 15-20 minute rough play, I may have to intervene 2-3 times to lessen the intensity of their interaction. No kidding.

These are 2 dogs that really like each other, still if it got out of hand the negative possibilities could be terrible.

I honestly don't like being a downer on threads like this. But, the reality is what it is.

When The Sheriff is over, they are fed separately, there are no shared toys or treats and they sleep in separate rooms. They always walk together on leash wonderfully.

Am I overly protective of the boys (and me)? Perhaps. But that ounce of prevention lets me sleep well at night.

@ CM

Best to you and yours.

John
Portland OR
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post #8 of 24 (permalink) Old 07-18-2019, 12:48 AM
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So sorry you had this happen. It’s terribly upsetting and I hate you have to deal with the aftermath. You are EXTREMELY wise to get advice!!

Very serious injury is a very real possibility now. You would likely not know why it started up the next time and would likely never see the beginning of it. I believe any toy or food item could start it once you have had the incident you describe. It is dangerous to tell yourself that they “like each other enough” to go back to the way things were before. You actually know nothing of what is going on between the lines.

The fact that your GSD did not cause a lot of physical harm in the past is nothing to depend on in the future. As your Doberman matures, she may well start the fight. The bottom line is, most any honest veterinarian or behaviorist would tell you that you should never leave these two alone. Forever.

You have two female dogs from two breeds known for same sex aggression. You’ve had an incident involving aggression. The environment is primed for another, worse, incident.

Learn what to do in the event of a fight but understand that if it starts one or both dogs can be injured badly before it can be stopped. You could be injured badly. Leave nothing out to be resource guarded. You and your affection are likely to be the most valuable resource in the house to both dogs. That is it’s own sticky can of worms.

Take the Fenzi course that Rosemary posted about in the other currently running thread on multi dog households. Buy an ex pen or 2 for rotating dogs. Make it a way of life because you can’t read dog minds. Manage manage manage. Consultation with a pet behaviorist might give you a very good plan! Good luck.


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post #9 of 24 (permalink) Old 07-18-2019, 03:35 AM
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I just want to say one last thing and then I will drop it:

SSA is innate. If it occurs... It occurs. It is not a matter of "Good dog/Bad dog". It is just what it is...

More importantly, it rarely (if ever) can be trained out, regardless of what some people say. Also in males, castration really doesn't seem to mitigate SSA.

I have had 3 two male Dobe households over the years. One was perfect. One (the current one) is "iffy" and one was the dog household from hell.

If I was younger, knowing the risks, I would do it again. Today? Probably not. Getting too old for that kind of hoopla.

I'm pretty sure that our friend dobebug would agree with me. She has had multiple male Dobe homes for decades. Yet, I am sure that she, like me, would probably council against it.

It is a real pain in the ass should something go south.

JMO
John
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post #10 of 24 (permalink) Old 07-18-2019, 01:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 4x4bike ped View Post
I just want to say one last thing and then I will drop it:

SSA is innate. If it occurs... It occurs. It is not a matter of "Good dog/Bad dog". It is just what it is...
I'm going to check in here just to add some stuff on aggression in the household. This is something that a whole lot of people never understand--it definitely isn't a matter of "Good dog/Bad dog"--this kind of stuff is hard wired.

Quote:
More importantly, it rarely (if ever) can be trained out, regardless of what some people say. Also in males, castration really doesn't seem to mitigate SSA.
And because it's hard wired that's why you can't 'train' it out--what that kind of training involves is iron fist discipline and total separation when not working directly with the trainer. In all of my years with Dobes I've never seen castration work to deter aggression.

Quote:
I have had 3 two male Dobe households over the years. One was perfect. One (the current one) is "iffy" and one was the dog household from hell.
Almost all of my Dobe households were multiple males--some were fine (and I think all of the easy ones were only two male Dobes but some of the households were three and four adult males and some of those also had an intact Australian Shepherd in the mix. One of my entirely peaceful groups was three Dobes and the Aussie. But while in general the old alpha business was never really what it was thought to be--it turned out that alpha dogs or bitches are born rather than fighting their way up some sort of doggy ladder of accomplishment. True alpha dogs are rare--I had one. And from the time he was added to the mix as a puppy under 2 months--no one argued. He never fought, he didn't growl at anyone--he might look at a couple of dogs who were being thorns in some other dogs side and that would cease--immediately. Where you have an alpha (and sometimes they are males and sometimes they are bitches) if there are any fights they are not going to be under the eye of the alpha. So while that dog lived there was peace.

Beyond that I've had some 'iffy' combinations--but not much that a word from me didn't stop. The worst fight I've ever had with my own Dobes over the years was between Toad who was going on three at the time and Rumor who was 5. I was watering and the dogs were in the yard with me. I went around the corner of the house to turn off the water and a fight erupted.

I ran back and as best I could tell later Toad evidently thought that size could beat out and out dirty fighting. Rumor was neutered--had been neutered for almost three years. Toad was intact. But my first eyeful of fighting dogs was Toad on his back and the much smaller Rumor was not going to let him up--EVER! By that time I had a plastic leaf rake in my hand and whacked Rumor with it and for a moment got him off Toad and to the corner of the house. Toad didn't want any more of that fight and was trying to give up about the time that Rumor grabbed him by the nose--by that time we were back by the slider to the kitchen and I smacked Rumor again with the rake and I shoved him into he house.

Toad was feeling very sorry for himself by then--I loaded them into the crates in my truck because I needed to go to work and taking them with me was the fastest way to see if there was any serious damage.

And much to my embarrassment the county Animal Service people showed up to see about the dog fight that had been reported.

And you know what--that was not a SERIOUS fight. I would never have been able to separate two mature male adult Dobermans by myself.

Quote:
I was younger, knowing the risks, I would do it again. Today? Probably not. Getting too old for that kind of hoopla.

I'm pretty sure that our friend dobebug would agree with me. She has had multiple male Dobe homes for decades. Yet, I am sure that she, like me, would probably council against it.

It is a real pain in the ass should something go south.
if I was a whole lot younger I'd probably do it again--but today I'm probably on my last Doberman--Toad is well over 13 years and working on being 14 years--and I'm old and fragile--I might take on an old dog who needs a home or an older retired stud dog but I'm too old for puppies.

And to be honest--John, like me, has years of experience reading dogs--I don't recommend that other people try what I managed to do for years--not all people are capable of keeping a close eye all the time on the dogs and make sure no dog has issued a threat to some other dog...


JMO too.

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post #11 of 24 (permalink) Old 07-18-2019, 01:24 PM
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One question: How old is Onyx?

And I just thought you might appreciate a 'they may work it out!' post. We've had two females for about 6 years now. Cayenne was a doberman female we raised from a puppy (2008-2017); Kascha was a rescue doberman female we adopted in 2012. Her history was similar to your GSD, she was kept kenneled 18+ hours per day and had extreme toy chewing issues when we first adopted her. She also ended up in the shelter after she couldn't get along with a smaller dog in her previous foster household. It took a few years for the two of them to work out their differences (I did get bitten once when I stepped between them during a dust up but fortunately no vet or doctor bills were ever needed). And dogs are funny creatures, we have a set of flexible interlinked plastic rings (like half of the Olympics symbol) that they used to love to play tug with my husband as the third angle of the triangle. Cayenne passed away in 2017 and we just acquired another 3 year old female dobie who is also extremely dominant, but Kascha is now 11 years old and we're very careful not to let Lois "bully" Kascha. It's taken about 6 months but they're now willing to share a human sized bed together (with a human) and occasionally a couch (spaced as far as possible). We've just been vigilant about supervising them, they're not allowed out of sight for any length of time and any sign of aggression and Lois has been sent 'to her room' since we don't confine them in kennels. They're also kept separate during the day when we're at work. And when we're outside Lois is kept on a length-flexible lead since we're in the process of getting a fence built and she's still not 100% trustworthy about staying in the yard when off leash. I think our situation works mostly because of Kascha's advanced age (it's too much effort these days to tune in some young whippersnapper) and laid back personality. Plus our two human, two couch setup means they spend most evenings being completely spoiled.

Good luck with your girls!
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post #12 of 24 (permalink) Old 07-18-2019, 02:37 PM
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I also just read the other background thread where this post was moved from. How much one on one time are you spending with Onyx these days? A lot of these posts have recommended tethering Layla which works great to prevent chewing and other behaviors, but it leaves Onyx out "in the cold" since most of your attention is on Layla. If you have a one person household, you are the ultimate 'toy/reward' and if all your time is now spent on Layla, Onyx may be feeling a bit bent of shape not to get her own private person time. Our new female is very possessive and demonstrates it by interposing herself between 'her' human and other dogs/humans. How much of that is happening with Layla and Onyx? Dogs really like their routines. It might be helpful if there's a part of the day when Onyx knows she'll get your undivided attention, it may relieve some of her anxiety at having to share all the time. I thought of dogs as 'pack' animals but The Nature of Things recently had a program on how dogs think and the 'successful' ones have been the ones that identified with humans rather than other dogs. The program said that the way dogs socialize today is very different than the way wolves socialize. Socializing for our two females has a certain 'stress/excitement/drama' component and they both seem to appreciate having part of the day where they don't have to deal with the other dog and/or compete for affection.
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post #13 of 24 (permalink) Old 07-18-2019, 02:49 PM
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Well... bug's comment drew me back into this thread

bug's words: "True alpha dogs are rare--I had one. And from the time he was added to the mix as a puppy under 2 months--no one argued. He never fought, he didn't growl at anyone--he might look at a couple of dogs who were being thorns in some other dogs side and that would cease--immediately. Where you have an alpha (and sometimes they are males and sometimes they are bitches) if there are any fights they are not going to be under the eye of the alpha. So while that dog lived there was peace."

I also owned what I believe was an "Alpha". He was unique. He rarely barked, never growled, yet both humans and dogs gave him a wide berth. Always. He was big (always pushing a buck) and pretty much unreadable.

This was back in the day when I still did dog parks. I would take him up to chase balls off leash. Dogs would run up to him, stop several feet away and then turn and walk back.

Only once did a dog push it. It was a Husky. He went towards Butcher's rear end. My boy faced him down and walked away. He did it again. The bottom line... One sorry ass and very unhappy and sore Husky.

The stories that I could tell about his stoic interactions with humans. LOL. Just his presence kept people at bay.

He never had to be fenced or kept behind closed doors. His house was HIS house. He had no desire to wander.

OK... One cute story: Butcher was on the front porch. A religious solicitor, polite and nicely dressed walked up to the porch. Butcher stood up and the guy quickly retreated. Down at the sidewalk his friends asked him why he didn't go to our house. He said "They have a dog".
They asked what the dog did. He said "Nothing... He just stared at me" LOL

John
Portland OR

Edit to say: As a result of his demeanor, he and his younger "brother" got along wonderfully. Never an issue. Never a spat.

Weird...
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post #14 of 24 (permalink) Old 07-18-2019, 08:18 PM Thread Starter
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Wow you guys thankyou so much for all the thoughtful responses and advice. I am just getting to read them due to jobs last couple days

First I will start by saying the two girls have now gone on two hikes with me and seem to really like having eachother at least for that purpose; there are large predators around and they like having eachother on the trails. I hoped it would be unifying, the one thing I could take from Ceasar’s tv show, who I think was brilliant unto himself re: his work w dogs, but maybe not so easy for people to emulate as you would think. But anyway, he would always say the pack on the move is unifying.

At home Layla (Dobe) is still crazy about Onyx (hulking nearly prehistoric looking GSD) but Onyx seems to be cooling towards Layla, maybe it is the puppy pass expiring as you were saying. But also observing them carefully today just in the yard to suss this out:

Layla is just hard on her, she loves Onyx but she will bang into her, practically run over her in her excitement, follows her everywhere.. she’s hard on her body and just a giant pain for us both at this age, I get it. I get why Onyx would want her own stuff and her own space again. Just peace again. Onyx is a dream by herself so quiet and well-behaved thanks to her rather unforgiving training regimen before I got her, I lucked out getting a trained GSD. So I do separate them, I do give Onyx breaks, but maybe it is to a point where I need to do a lot more of that for Onyx’s sake until this baby Godzilla matures more and settles down more.

OK now I will start reading. Back after a bit
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post #15 of 24 (permalink) Old 07-18-2019, 08:21 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by ArkadyDarell View Post
This is a good question and well articulated, I think you did a good job of explaining the situation. I know there are people here that will have good advice, but I've been a one-dog man for a long time. I'll be interested to see replies as well. All the best to you and your dogs!
One dog person, lucky you! I was one of those not long ago, jealous!! Thanks AD.. I thought my post was tortuously long. I so appreciate everyone weighing in
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post #16 of 24 (permalink) Old 07-18-2019, 08:29 PM Thread Starter
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Many dogs will give a "puppy pass" to puppies and adolescent dogs, but you are rapidly approaching an age with your younger bitch where that is no longer going to be the case. Since you say your older bitch has had issues with other dogs, and she's also showing signs of resource guarding, in *my* house, I would absolutely NOT allow them to be playing tug games, and I would NOT have any high value toys out, ever, unsupervised. That's just asking for trouble.

You have to remember that many dogs are not dog social - it's actually quite common. This is a really great read, with diagrams, of the normal scale of dog sociability: https://badrap.org/training-resources/dogdog-tolerance. Your older bitch is likely falling into the normal range of dog selective, and may lean towards the dog aggressive side of the scale. That doesn't mean in any way that she's a bad dog, it's just who she is. Same sex aggression isn't uncommon in our breed. We see it a lot more in males, but it happens in females, too.

I would be working hard to set up the girls' environment to make sure that there aren't "triggers" that may set off a fight. Resource guarding is a really, really natural behavior in dogs. That doesn't mean it's not something to work on, but it also means that we have to be aware of it and make sure that if we have dogs prone to resource guarding, as well as dogs that may be more prone to be edgy or to be more likely to get into fights, that we don't add "fuel to the fire," so to speak. My first bitch was a pretty bad resource guarder. We had almost no toys out all the time - only low value toys. Higher value toys had to be given only when both dogs were supervised. VERY high value things like chews could only be given when both dogs were crated - why risk an issue? Just not worth it. I also do recommend Jean Donaldson's book "Mine! A Practical Guide to Resource Guarding in Dogs." It's a great step by step guide to working on resource guarding.

Those are my initial thoughts. It's hard to say at this stage how much management the girls will need. Your younger girl is still a pup. It's too soon to say what her adult temperament will be like and how they will interact as adults, but there are definitely things you can set in place now to prevent issues from starting.
This is great advice, esp the the book and link which I will check into. I’m naturally doing some of this already but it’s really really helpful to have the right direction clarified and honed by those with more experience.

I’m wondering what are low value toys..

OK I guess I’ll end the tug of war thing. To be honest Onyx only likes it when she is winning all the time, and the Dobe is starting to win a bit now so maybe that is why there is more tension too.

Maybe low value toys are going to be very individual to that dog as to what is low value. I had soft rubber nubby toys out there, super cheap at PetSmart, those seemed low value. The large nylabone chews seem higher value. Balls are meh. I started giving real dog bones from freezer section at pet store and was worried that would cause skirmishes, you know really bring out their more primitive side because I used to see my co-worker’s dogs growl like little monsters whenever those were passed out, but since they always have one big juicy one each it seems ok go figure, Onyx always makes sure she gets the best one.

Thanks I think you have another post on here I’ll read that too. OOOh look at me using the quote feature, next thing I’ll start multi-quoting same post and really get up to speed!
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post #17 of 24 (permalink) Old 07-18-2019, 09:56 PM Thread Starter
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Well until I remember how to use the multi-quote feature (I was on DT years ago), I’ll just try to make my own multi quote post.

Thankyou for the generous offer of advice for PM John I will keep that in mind!! I am taking the skirmish very seriously. I’m glad Layla was not actually hurt except for her spirits. As soon as they were back together interacting after a break she went from miserable to 200% cheered up. She likes Onyx so much and is a little needy towards her. I am wondering if Layla being just physically hard/exhausting on Onyx who has just turned 8, hard to believe, I got her when she was 3.5yo.. I wonderful if that also maybe have made the show down necessary to get the Dobe to back down a little with her youthful intensity, and respect more.. But nah it probably was over the toy. Thing is I could not really see a thing in the dark until it broke up so I will never know.

Yes male on male Doberman is a recipe for disaster, I know this from having been on DT years ago and hearing the horror stories. I will see the occasional Dobe male posted in the local shelter and a comment about two male dobes and fighting. I know it’s best to have opposite sexes but my last male Dobe as I have mentioned was EXRTEMLEY dog aggressive towards both genders in fact Onyx was terrified of HIM when she first got here. I remember my SO and I trying to walk them at the same time and the Dobe was literally stalking forward on the lead, snarling and snapping his jaws like a pac-man behind her the whole way, it was grotesquely comical. Then that Dobe boy passed on right when they finally made peace (maybe half a year later?), and she was left with his geezer friend Bodhi, a mutt, who tried to put her in her place but she scared the hell out of him in multiple skirmishes until he finally backed down, then they were friends until he died also not long after. So then it was just me and Onyx for awhile..

I believe you about the Dobe in full fight mode.. Watching my old Dobe boy I would not want to be on the other side of that aggression tho he was a harmless dork with me. She will not always be a derpy young bitch, in one way I’m glad to have you remind me she will be a good protector as she matures which is a big reason I go with these two breeds. On the dark side there is not wanting to get in the middle of a fight. 10-4 as they say, roger that John. I am duly respectful. I think I would go for the hose.. I will try to have things set up.

Which brings up another question what would you guys do in the event of a dog fight? Are there things you can buy like pepper spray, fog horn, cattle prod (just making stuff up now)...

One time I had this little device someone gave me for a trip to another place, it was for being mugged, you pulled the pin and the most ear shattering high pitched alarm sound went off, like being next to a speaker at a rock concert. Something like that?

OK I am continuing to read everyone and respond. I’ll try to be more succinct
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post #18 of 24 (permalink) Old 07-18-2019, 10:16 PM Thread Starter
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Ok I’m caught up. Interesting stories about your alpha dogs, DB and John. Maybe Onyx is just dominant since she has liked to pick fights tho never materialized into real fight with strange dogs. I did have a wolf-husky hybrid once again when the other senior dogs I mentioned were dying off, she too was on her way out. They all passed the same year, the Dobe boy, Bodhi and Tara. But anyway I believe Tara was a true alpha, everyone respected her and she did not have to make a show, they just did. Even young Onyx. And even on her death bed no one would dis her.

Dogs are quite the mysterious wonders. I’m learning a lot from your posts, it’s good to pow wow

I think you hit the nail on the head too Saskdobie, I thought to myself well Onyx is benefiting so much from having this friend, she seemed so happy to have her, truly. So then she has to just put up with the other dog getting all the attention because she is a baby brat and she needs it right now. But you are right it is not very fair to Onyx. I will try to carve out her own time as you have suggested rather than have this suck it up buttercup attitude. I have been feeling secretly guilty and thinking I should do as you are suggesting, but my time is so spread out right now it’s hard enough as it is w having to keep them separate a lot of the time.

Well I hope my two make it over to the statistics of girls who do get along. I was hoping that bringing in a baby (four month old) would increase the odds because of the puppy pass, which I did know about, but I thought the puppy pass would some how have a lasting benefit as far as creating a tolerance between them for when Layla is no longer a puppy, that is where I am learning I may have been wrong in my wishful thinking.

I’ll be super careful and keep you guys posted. Thanks for your great advice.

Btw Onyx is now trying to bring any toy that is even left outside, indoors and into her crate. Sigh. Resource guarding alright.
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post #19 of 24 (permalink) Old 07-18-2019, 10:57 PM
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I have enjoyed all the great info. & wisdom here ^

And Saskdobie - this Larry (from ON) found your recap most interesting.
- hitting many good & valid points

Quote:
Originally Posted by Beaumont67 View Post
Kelly and little Trevor (sons 12 y/o YorkiePoo) have the best seat, in the house.
He was trained by former Amy as a puppy, so the little guy is really language smart & copied her mannerisms.
- we Love him dearly

I always laugh, seeing T-man on the top of the leather sectional.
- best friends now, but the first year was terror when they visited...
- puppy Kel must of thought, "who brought the squirrel, in the house"...LOL...and her prey drive, would escalate
- but we didn't do a life of crate & rotate, but rather "strictly supervised" through the early chaos (first year)
- now they will even sleep together, and can be safely left alone together

Critter’s mom - I think your 1/2 way there...dealing with your pair, of fighters.
(not ideal now)
- you have to be the real Alpha & much stronger as an individual (Leader in dogs eyes) if both out, at same time & practice 100% SUPERVISION (nothing less)...or Crate & Rotate, for dogs life

Why do you think, on the earlier thread, I told you it was bad...to let dogs dig holes, for fun ????
- you thought it was an interesting idea, but harm can it do ?

^^ You gave up Rules & Boundaries, and so goes the dogs respect...for its master.
- so they are left to their own innate imagination, to be just dogs...and they will figure out, the pecking order...without their owner / and the bully develops
- content dogs need a Master / that makes every decision, for them for a balanced existence

---------------------------------------

PS - our dobe puppy (female Kelly) was truly aggressive at 11 weeks old (hackles up RED ZONE), a handful to control and picked fights with our sons YorkiePoo (Trevor), who was also an Alpha male.
- plus we are a crate-less home here
- and at 5 months young, Kelly picked up little Trevor off the floor...and Mom, laid the law down
- a split second, from the little dog being shook like a rag dog stuffy, and avoided a broken neck

We trained the dogs to share toys, we let them eat beside each other and share food out of the same dish.
- we supervised them religiously, for over a year
- and never left them alone, for even a minute...the following year
- they knew, if the fights didn't stop & someone got hurt...the good dog life, would never exist again, for the offender
- through a projection, they got the message // and one day, the fighting stopped...just like that

Now they will sleep together / and we never have to worry, when the little dog is over.
- at night, they share the leather sectional with Mom, watching TV...both are included in everything together
- and Kelly is most happy, when Trevor goes home LOL
- my little T-man will be here for the weekend, we Love baby sitting him

Kelly would have been surrendered or put down, if sold to a newbe (before she turned 9 months old) - but we got her, and she changed for the better / she knew she had to, plain and simple.
- all our Rules she had to comply with, right down on how to play with specific toys
- she was given Boundaries & with that...Trust & Respect for her Humans happened & the Bond foundation, was built

Bond is Foundation - for 1.5 years, she would not expose her puppy belly for rubs.
[a very dominate girl]
- so dad started to rub her tail underside to relax her (for first 10 minutes), in the master bed @ night
[its also a horse whisper technique, I would learn later]
- during the day, I've dreamed up other ways of relaxing a red Zone dog
- some just with forms of special speech word patterns, body blocking & hand touch projections of Masters strength

Dad & Mom here - controlled Kelly 24/7, as a puppy / now she fits into a normal routine and is very happy & safe to be around, even for others.
- but don't come near or touch, her Dads red Silverado 4x4 truck
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post #20 of 24 (permalink) Old 07-19-2019, 07:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Critter’s mom View Post
I started giving real dog bones from freezer section at pet store and was worried that would cause skirmishes, you know really bring out their more primitive side because I used to see my co-worker’s dogs growl like little monsters whenever those were passed out, but since they always have one big juicy one each it seems ok go figure, Onyx always makes sure she gets the best one.
I can’t imagine any dog that doesn’t place extremely high value on these bones. Having two dogs out at the same time with these bones is what almost got my son’s Schnauzer killed. He simply wandered by the other dog, with her bone, on the way to the water bowl. Severe injuries from the Pit Bull he played with daily - with two adult humans right there in the room.

If you don’t have them separated by crates or doors or ex pens and this type of resource is out, I’d say you are asking for a problem. You just can’t keep eyes on every interaction in that situation. As you indicate, even the dogs understand that one bone is of more value than another. You can’t possibly know whether one dog, or both dogs, are calculating how to get the other bone. This is what dogs do! Among lots of other thinking about the resource they might like to get possession of.

I thin most anyone here with multi dog households would think putting loose dogs out with real bones might be asking for big trouble, even in the most congenial of households! Management is the key to balanced “power”.
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post #21 of 24 (permalink) Old 07-20-2019, 09:52 AM Thread Starter
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Beaumont and Tricia Koonz I thank you for your input. Beaumont, you are a true Dobe whisperer. Your post is amazing and I am soaking it up along with all the other great advice from you guys on this thread. And thanks for clarifying about digging the holes, I was still a little confused about that.

Thanks so much for helping me trouble shoot, all. I don’t mean to sound sometimes like I already know what you guys are telling me, obviously I don’t or wouldn’t be asking for help! Sometimes I do know or have figured out some of it, having had high drive dogs for a long time and also spending years on DT some years back, but most definitely there is a lot I did not think of or didn’t have in my brain, and it helps fill out the entire picture, to problem solve together. This is a great resource, this forum! I don’t consider myself that good a trainer really, I do have some idea of how to psyche them out in subtle to stronger ways, largely helped from having horses. You really have to walk tall and exert a leader presence with those large animals as you horse peeps know. A lot of what I do with the dogs is intuitive. But actually physical training I am not so great, I need to read those books and get a trainer as suggested

Triciakoontz yes I would have thought they would be really incited by those meaty bones and was very leery the first time I gave them to the girls, was surprised at how not a problem it was.. I have never bought them before now because first of all they gross me out (vegetarian here), but I’m feeding so much meat to my dogs and cats these days (cats get raw whole cat food to prevent bladder, kidney and urinary tract problems along with just needing better nutrition)... I guess I’m desensitizing. But also because I was worried they would incite aggression

I think maybe it was ok re: the meaty bones up into now because of the puppy pass, but now I will follow your advice and only give to them separately. It is really good for them I think, to have the real bones vs always something artificial like a nylabone. But anyway thanks for your point about that.

Well I have pulled every last toy from the yard, so that they are forced to only use sticks they find from the trees or the old bones that have been stripped of any meat or good stuff. These things are so low value that Onyx is no longer being incited to act up.

I’m still separating them a lot and watching closely but I think that with these two, the toys were really the problem because Onyx has such a twisted attachment to them. This based on having been left in kennel in most of her former life with original breeder/trainer/owner— again, the only time she got out was for training and usually a toy was involved to bring up her drive for the training, so she associates toys with the only fun or attention she got. The breeder was not a bad dog owner, and did love her very much. This is a kind of training I am sure you guys of aware of, it’s very strict. The dog is always in training when not kenneled. It is why Onyx was given up because I think that on top of that, the trainer was spending most of her time with her main competition dog who was Onyx’s mom. So she was starting to feel bad and wanted Onyx to go onto a more fun and natural life with me.

So you see Onyx’s obsession with toys goes even way beyond the usual resource guarding, it’s tied up with the only human approval she got, praise, being a good girl, getting out of her kennel which she was in most of the time. It is so deeply entrenched in her psyche that it is not normal. The trainer acknowledged this rather sheepishly. I was hesitant to even have toys for Onyx as a single dog for awhile because I wanted her to sort of debrief from that obession.. They would get her so hyped up with her drive. It was ok for her to have them before the arrival of Layla, but now things are different.

Just as a funny anecdote, Onyx and Layla ran off my property to the neighbor when Layla was first here (she was already pretty big at 4 months). I stopped that in it’s tracks after it happened. Anyway the neighbors who I have never even met (we are very rural), miss their own GSD who passed, they appreciate a well-bred and trained GSD as theirs was a retired police dog. So the guy who is older guy started playing ball with Onyx. Well Layla eventually came back but Onyx was still MIA. Apparently she was sleeping on their porch still at 9pm at night. So I get a call that my other dog is there. Then I came to realize she was always trying to get back to them because of the one ball playing incident. She would probably leave me to be with anyone who would play ball with her, I’m not kidding. GSDs are usually very loyal but it really is like a crack in her psyche

Also looking back on how Onyx eventually got along fine with the other senior dogs who were still with me, after being almost enemies at first, it was 100 percent ok once the pecking order was established. Granted those dogs were males, because the wolf mix girl who was the alpha of the pack was already dying when Onyx came here. She respected Tara but it never came down to a show-down as Tara died, and she was crazy old. I would not have let Onyx harass her anyway but it was already game over for sweet Tara.

So looking at how happy these two girls, Onyx and Layla, are to have eachother as friends, vs letting Onyx have her precious toys and then she is just obsessing over and guarding and looking all creepy about.. I think it is worth it for Onyx to go without toys except for a little bit when it’s just her and me. She is much happier with a friend than she is without a friend = because she is resource-guarding and going psycho over the toys. I’m also trying to give both their own special time with me and spread my attention out more evenly between them as you advised, so Onyx doesn’t feel she is on the back burner (because the youngster is so high-maintenance). So that is where this ends for now... I thank you again for helping me trouble shoot this one!!

Last edited by Critter’s mom; 07-20-2019 at 10:07 AM.
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post #22 of 24 (permalink) Old 07-20-2019, 08:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Critter’s mom View Post
Beaumont and Tricia Koonz I thank you for your input. Beaumont, you are a true Dobe whisperer. Your post is amazing and I am soaking it up along with all the other great advice from you guys on this thread. And thanks for clarifying about digging the holes, I was still a little confused about that.

Thanks so much for helping me trouble shoot, all. I don’t mean to sound sometimes like I already know what you guys are telling me, obviously I don’t or wouldn’t be asking for help! Sometimes I do know or have figured out some of it, having had high drive dogs for a long time and also spending years on DT some years back, but most definitely there is a lot I did not think of or didn’t have in my brain, and it helps fill out the entire picture, to problem solve together. This is a great resource, this forum! I don’t consider myself that good a trainer really, I do have some idea of how to psyche them out in subtle to stronger ways, largely helped from having horses. You really have to walk tall and exert a leader presence with those large animals as you horse peeps know. A lot of what I do with the dogs is intuitive. But actually physical training I am not so great, I need to read those books and get a trainer as suggested.
..............
Hi Critter’s mom - your easy to Help, because you don't argue back and take in the information presented.
- like everything in life, even myself...some things sink in quicker than others
- and you make good long replies back...so we will invest time in you, because its not all one sided
- and thks so much for the compliment / I trained about a dozen other dogs for people, when I ran my pet food business (on the side)
- I enjoyed seeing the changes, I could make // usually more to do, with training owners, than dog LOL

Once I OB trained (all off-leash) a 9-10 month old Dobe, pup on a low traffic road...I was told the dog was stupid (eating drywall), but it could turn any door handle and change rooms (getting access, to entire house).
- so I said, why shut the dog in a room ?? ...that not working, for Ya HaHa
- no I said, "this dog is NOT stupid & pup is smarter than its owner"
- next I had it walking off-leash, in the one hour training session...it Loved working for me, and getting verbal and finger kisses (no treats, I never bribe with food)
- mother and her 15 year old kid, called me the "Doberman whisperer", for the first time
- I just proved their dog, was real bored...with a lack of human attention & affection

More reading for you, below - few links to follow // to open up your paradigm shift.
I will read the rest later, or tomorrow...and add some more // unlike others, I give High Value bones, to my dogs when they are together.
- but my following early work...ensures, no human or dog gets injured

PS - obviously, dogs in my procession are different than a rescue with unknown history.
- the reason I train my "Soft Bite/Muzzle Control"...its the #1 foundation, of my puppy work
- for safety and respect
- I sold marrow bones once, as part of my earlier business...so I've handed strangers bones before (story for another day)...peoples dogs growling at me, over a delicious bone, usually doesn't happen (more than once)...because I don't put up, with K9's exposed and lips curled up
Cheers, LARRY


Quote:
Originally Posted by Beaumont67 View Post
Doberman puppy biting
Link: https://www.dobermantalk.com/general...py-biting.html
- all my posts are here // #2, 6, 7 11 & 13

-------------------------------------------------------

OK I'll play - a sticky would be a good idea, to centralize methods.

Problem - Doberman puppy biting:

^^ My early training method has been coined here the "Beaumont Theory - Soft Bite/Muzzle Control", several years ago.
- may seen unorthodox at first glance, but I've had some good feedback/testimonials if given a chance

Mouthing for attention?
I don't worry about initial hand biting, its completely normal and gives one a chance to train soft bite/muzzle control starting from day1.
I approach puppy mouthing like a valuable learning experience, and treat as a very necessary opportunity.
My puppy biting rules are:
a) Mom is off limits to any/all mouthing...instead, Dad will fill the void/puppy mouthing need
b) only Dads hands are allowable body parts, for teeth to touch
c) no biting legs, feet, butt, arms, neck or face allowed
d) I don't redirect much and never leave the room to ignore puppy / if I leave the room, pup may consider that a win

I will stop puppy from constantly biting me, by putting my hand in their mouth (on purpose).
So this Dad offers up his hand as the sacrificial lamb, while young pup is still little.
My Training Method:
a) use my thumb or index finger, placed behind the molar teeth deep in mouth / and when pup bits down I am not getting hurt, because their gums clamping on me is ineffective
b) make a fist and wedge it in the pups mouth, so the pup is left with a wide open mouth momentarily, it can't close its jaws or exhibit much of any force
c) I will place my thump tip under pups tongue behind its little front teeth & it doesn't hurt...and hold it there, inside the lower jaw
d) I will grab K9 teeth (2 usually on the lower jaw) with my thumb and index finger looped together...pup twists & turns, and Dad lets go / pup can't bite back, when their teeth/jaw muscles are being effectively restrained
e) grab pups nose with my hand lightly & softly shake it, to initiate a playful reaction of open mouth

^^ Then I start saying "BE GENTLE" and "You CAN'T HURT DAD", soon dog accept that I have some strange "Superman" powers and the frequency and severity of biting decreases...now puppy is on the way to learning soft bite/muzzle control.
- because Dad's hand became the bite toy initially, I spared Mom from most of it
- and this direct hand approach, spared the family members from extra bits to the ankles, ass, face, arms, etc...which are off limits
- pup learned quick enough, my hand was the only bite target in the home...now our puppy likes to suck my thumb some

All this is playful, and teaches the human owner holds some sort of magic powers, that later will NEVER be challenged.
Next I proof the forever soft bite & controlled jaw muzzles with tennis ball in the mouth play.
- I tease pup with touching tennis ball on the tip of its nose
- allowing it to bit the ball, and I am constantly rotating it between its teeth
- ball is directed in & out of its mouth while the back of my fingers come into contact with the sharp tips of the long K9 teeth
- this is when, pup has come to respect the owners hand, and relaxes its ball grip considerably to not hurt the hand that feeds it

Also play tug-of-war sometimes the same way, wind up the puppy in excited play.
- but if my finger(s) accidentally enters the mouth of teeth, softness in bite is shown...in a split second
Finally, I teach young pup to take a half exposed peanut or almond out of my lips, in a very soft and controlled manner.

Soft Bite Training, lasts the dogs life time / it starts when their babies.
I've made it work on low, medium & high prey drive pups / building trust & respect, way before they grow up and reach maturity with much strength.

TESTIMONIAL & Further Comments below:


Our current Kelly was a handful, but after 2 months of consistency, biting stopped...incredible Soft Bite now.
LadyDi likes this.

------------Kelly & (Amy - RIP @ 11.7 y/o)

Last edited by Beaumont67; 07-20-2019 at 09:12 PM.
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post #23 of 24 (permalink) Old 07-20-2019, 09:40 PM
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post #24 of 24 (permalink) Old 07-24-2019, 12:06 PM
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I feel for you. Like everyone says, same sex aggression is real and can go south quickly.

My current 7 yo female was the youngster at 1 & 1/2 when I rescued her and brought her in with my 6 yo female at the time. They got along well for the most part, the older female was shorter but had a heavier bone structure and ruled the roost for a few years. As she got older, the younger female challenged her on a few occasions when it came to attention and toys. It never got full blown attack mode which was very lucky on my part and they got along well and were left alone loose at home (risky, I know, but nothing came of it, and count my blessings).

I now have a pretty Alpha male that I rescued who is going to be 3 soon and a now 9 month old female American Bulldog. These 2 get crated...period. The 7 yo female Dobe gets grumpy quickly with the AB and I know that will lead to problems in the future. So this is how it will have to be and stay.

The male is just too strong and hard to take the risk. I have had a male before, but this one is different. Very stoic with strangers, won't even eat snacks from strange people or the vet. He walks everywhere I take him like he owns the place (head held high, alert, prances). Any dogs that challenge him verbally gets the same treatment although I can easily get him to walk past. You also cannot try and force him to do anything. Even I need to be careful. Forcing him will envoke a growl, the glassy stare, and a stiffening of the body. Scary to say the least. I can still approach him and quickly calm him down, it just doesn't leave me confident with him and strangers.

Don't get me wrong, he is as mushy as all get out with me and is my bathroom buddy and will get mushy with anyone else once he considers them "all good", but I always have that unintentional mistake by someone who doesn't know his quirks in the back of my mind as a potential accident and err on the side of safety.

He usually lets the female run the show until he doesn't for some dog reason and has let the female Dobe know who is boss more than a few times with no real damage other than sounding like a vicious fight but really all verbal and teeth gnashing, except once which required her to get staples on her side. The AB puppy has gotten the puppy pass for the most part except 2 separate incidents when he wanted my undivided attention and the puppy was being over zealous. The first time when the puppy was pretty young and had I not been right there I think he would have killed or seriously injured her. He bit her on the head puncturing near the eye and top of the head, flipped her over and was going for her underside. The second time, a little more recent, same situation, but it was more of warning snap that found it's target on the side of her cheek. When he growls at her, she gives him his distance for now.

Like other people that have had similar experiences. Be vigilant and don't take unnecessary risks. It could get expensive and be heart breaking.

Last edited by Kudobe; 07-24-2019 at 12:09 PM.
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