Snipping at 6yr old daughter. - Doberman Forum : Doberman Breed Dog Forums
General Training & Obedience All training and obedience questions, tips, articles go here

 9Likes
  • 2 Post By TallStef
  • 2 Post By 4x4bike ped
  • 1 Post By TallStef
  • 4 Post By MeadowCat
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
post #1 of 11 (permalink) Old 01-20-2018, 05:54 PM Thread Starter
Lil Dog
 
BeccaGore's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2017
Posts: 52
Location: IL
Dogs Name: Lucifer
Dogs Age: Born: 07/09/2017
Gallery Pics: 1
Visit BeccaGore's Gallery
Thanks: 20
Thanked 36 Times in 21 Posts
Images: 1
   
Snipping at 6yr old daughter.

Lucifer is 6 months old now, and so far he is doing pretty well.

When we first got him I would go up to him daily while he was eating/drinking/playing, and mess with his mouth, body whatever he had in front of him to test how his tolerance is. Not once has he made a wrong move towards my husband, or myself. My 6yr old daughter however he has now gotten overbearing at her. Once about his toy as they were playing together, and once over something he had taken from the trash.

He showed his teeth to her when she tried to pick up the toy to throw it for him, and gave out a meaner growl. The second time he took a tortilla shell from the trash, and she was trying to pick it up, and put it back in the trash, and again he showed his teeth, and let out growl. I have noticed that he will NOT act this way if he has clear view of myself, or my husband. (Example: I was on the other side of the couch where he was unable to see me.)

Both times he was quickly corrected, and taken right to his crate. My best guess about this is that he sees she is small, and that he can take advantage of her, because so. He is not seeing her as a dominant being in the house.

I do include her in some of his training, and corrections, because I want him know that he has to listen to her as well. They get along, and play together very well other than these 2 times, and my daughter knows that if mom, or dad is not around to leave the dog be. She can pet him, and be near him, but she knows not to play with him if we're not in the room

What are some ways in better correcting this behavior?
BeccaGore is offline  
Advertisement
 
post #2 of 11 (permalink) Old 01-20-2018, 06:16 PM
Pocket Doberman!
 
TallStef's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2015
Posts: 165
Location: East Coast
Dogs Name: Starbuck - Fidelis N' Wingate's Lucky Charm
Titles: Nosebiter Extraodinaire
Dogs Age: DOB 3/13/15
Gallery Pics: 22
Visit TallStef's Gallery
Thanks: 328
Thanked 579 Times in 127 Posts
Images: 22
                     
Quote:
Originally Posted by BeccaGore View Post
Lucifer is 6 months old now, and so far he is doing pretty well.

When we first got him I would go up to him daily while he was eating/drinking/playing, and mess with his mouth, body whatever he had in front of him to test how his tolerance is. Not once has he made a wrong move towards my husband, or myself. My 6yr old daughter however he has now gotten overbearing at her. Once about his toy as they were playing together, and once over something he had taken from the trash.

He showed his teeth to her when she tried to pick up the toy to throw it for him, and gave out a meaner growl. The second time he took a tortilla shell from the trash, and she was trying to pick it up, and put it back in the trash, and again he showed his teeth, and let out growl. I have noticed that he will NOT act this way if he has clear view of myself, or my husband. (Example: I was on the other side of the couch where he was unable to see me.)

Both times he was quickly corrected, and taken right to his crate. My best guess about this is that he sees she is small, and that he can take advantage of her, because so. He is not seeing her as a dominant being in the house.

I do include her in some of his training, and corrections, because I want him know that he has to listen to her as well. They get along, and play together very well other than these 2 times, and my daughter knows that if mom, or dad is not around to leave the dog be. She can pet him, and be near him, but she knows not to play with him if we're not in the room

What are some ways in better correcting this behavior?
The best way of correcting his behavior is to correct your daughter's behavior. She's at fault here. A child should, under no circumstances, be taking food or toys or high value items from your dog. It's not safe. Please teach her not to take anything from him, and if she is concerned about what he's doing to fetch an adult immediately so the adult can assess/deal with the situation. A 6 year old isn't mature enough to train dogs or deal with resource guarding issues, and this is putting her at risk for a serious bite. Children are right near dogs' faces, and bites usually end up on their faces or necks, which could turn a simple correction (in the dog's mind) into a major hospital visit. **ETA: 6 year olds' brains are also not fully developed, and they have a harder time understanding consequences the way we do. They have very little impulse control. While I bet she's a great kid, and very smart if she's helping you train already, she shouldn't be allowed unsupervised with a puppy.

For him, the best thing to do right now is to teach him "drop it" or "out." He needs to learn that when the person says "drop it," he gets something SUPER DUPER AWESOME and he should drop it immediately. Ideally, you would like your dog to drop the item and then sit and wait for you to pick up the dropped item and reward the behavior, but it could take several months to teach. Are you in training with him currently? ETA: I would also teach crate games and crate him while unsupervised.

Edit with training resources: Karen Pryor and Patricia McConnell are two of my favorite trainers. Karen Pryor has a GREAT, detailed article on the concept of "drop it" or "give" and how to teach it in a way that your dog thinks the game is win-win. I used this method, and my dog will drop tennis balls, tugs, cat toys, bully sticks, and questionably "delicious" items she finds on walks because I've made such a game of it. I never take things away and punish her, I always make it fun and rewarding. As a bonus, this is a foundation for teaching your dog fetch - so once your dog has this trick down, "fetch" is a pretty easy game to play, and it can exhaust them physically and mentally if combined with training. https://clickertraining.com/node/1805

This is another resource that addresses teaching how to drop it and explaining dominance: https://www.labradortraininghq.com/l...-and-leave-it/

Here is a YouTube video from a trainer on teaching "drop it." She's hilarious, and it's a nice 6 minute video. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9shelv94h2I

Here is a YouTube video of Victoria Stilwell practicing a similar method, without treats, and just trading toys. Since your pup is already exhibiting some classic signs of resource aggression/guarding, I would use high value treats instead of toys, and I would start with a lower value toy than a stuffed animal - maybe a nylabone, and trade some hot dog bits for it for the first lesson. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JO2cxHgIzX0

Here is Patricia McConnel's take on resource guarding, which might be of use: http://www.patriciamcconnell.com/the...and-prevention
dobebug and ECIN like this.

Last edited by TallStef; 01-20-2018 at 06:37 PM.
TallStef is offline  
The Following 9 Users Say Thank You to TallStef For This Useful Post:
4x4bike ped (01-20-2018), CRDobe (01-20-2018), dobegal (01-21-2018), Dossey (01-25-2018), ECIN (01-20-2018), MeadowCat (01-21-2018), PrairieGirl (01-20-2018), Rosemary (01-20-2018), ShelianDobe (01-21-2018)
post #3 of 11 (permalink) Old 01-20-2018, 06:36 PM Thread Starter
Lil Dog
 
BeccaGore's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2017
Posts: 52
Location: IL
Dogs Name: Lucifer
Dogs Age: Born: 07/09/2017
Gallery Pics: 1
Visit BeccaGore's Gallery
Thanks: 20
Thanked 36 Times in 21 Posts
Images: 1
   
She has been told not to do so in the past, and was again reminded heavily when it happened. When I say she helps train him I am talking as if when I was teaching him to sit, and he began to understand the command I would have her also tell him to sit, and give him the treat. I DO NOT allow her to any kind of training that involves her getting close to his mouth in that way. Other than these 2 incidents she knows not to get near his mouth, but again she is a kid, and often needs reminded.

We aren't doing any training classes currently. Everything is home training. Which honestly is going a lot better than I thought. He learns VERY quickly, and loves to please. He does know the "Leave it/Drop it," but not fully just yet.

We were just able to get him a crate today, and he is doing great with it. He will for the most part go to his crate when he is told to, but being his first day of course he is still a little unsure of it.
BeccaGore is offline  
Advertisement
 
post #4 of 11 (permalink) Old 01-20-2018, 07:00 PM
Big Lil pup
 
4x4bike ped's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2015
Posts: 5,955
Location: Portland, OR
Dogs Name: Foxfire's The Real McCoy (McCoy)
Titles: Pet of the Year
Dogs Age: DOB 9/12/14
Gallery Pics: 9
Visit 4x4bike ped's Gallery
Thanks: 15,994
Thanked 14,430 Times in 4,890 Posts
Images: 9
                     
Ok... This is just my opinion and experience...

He is not taking advantage of your child. Your Lucifer is telling your daughter, in no uncertain terms, that he is uncomfortable with her interaction with him AT THAT MOMENT. At 6 months, he is treating her no differently than he would a sibling. My solution would not be to discourage the growling, which is one of the final warnings a dog gives before he/she snaps or bites. It would be to remove the perceived threat.

So, figure out what is making him uncomfortable and attempt not to put him in to that situation again.

A 6 month old Doberman is a baby stuck in a maturing teens body. It's a hard mix. They have puppy instincts, but the power and harmful capability of a full grown dog.

At this point, my suggestions would be Three-fold. First: Never allow your young girl to be around him unsupervised. Even unintentionally, he could seriously harm her in an instant. Secondly: I would make a real effort to learn to read Lucifer's body language and hence his comfort level. Most Doberman's telegraph their emotional state very well. Lastly, it is up to you to teach your daughter not to put the dog in situations that make him uncomfortable.
Some things that come to mind (I have a 16 month old grandson who interacts daily with both my sons Dobe and mine): Food bowls, water bowls, toys. These are all classic things that a pup might resource guard. Approach and demeanor.... Many dogs do not like being approached head on or over the top. Many are very unhappy being hugged. Also, loud or rambunctious approaches can cause a startle effect.

If you stay aware, you will quickly identify the surrounding behaviors that are resulting in his discomfort. And, they can be overcome or mitigated. My toddler grandson, as we have eased him into his relationship with our 3+ yo dog, can pretty much do anything he wants without causing discomfort to the dog. He can take a toy away, put hands on him. The other day (watching very carefully), I let him pet McCoy while he was eating. The cutest thing is when he walks up and puts his face 6 inches away and says: "Dog! Grrrr!.

These comfortable interactions did not happen overnight and certainly not without extreme vigilance on our part. I would still not let the dog and child interact without complete supervision.

Our distinct advantage is that McCoy was over 2 years old when our grandson was born, while you are dealing with a puppy. My son's dog was about 7.

Honestly, if you are supervising them together, as you indicated, I would not be overly concerned unless things change dramatically.

Edit to say: One more thought. My 35 yo son was raised since birth around Dobermans. The result is that he has owned them his entire adult life. He is currently raising his son the same way!

Best to you
John
Portland OR
dobebug and TallStef like this.

Last edited by 4x4bike ped; 01-20-2018 at 07:05 PM.
4x4bike ped is offline  
The Following 5 Users Say Thank You to 4x4bike ped For This Useful Post:
dobebug (01-23-2018), dobegal (01-21-2018), Dossey (01-25-2018), melbrod (01-23-2018), TallStef (01-20-2018)
post #5 of 11 (permalink) Old 01-20-2018, 07:43 PM
Pocket Doberman!
 
TallStef's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2015
Posts: 165
Location: East Coast
Dogs Name: Starbuck - Fidelis N' Wingate's Lucky Charm
Titles: Nosebiter Extraodinaire
Dogs Age: DOB 3/13/15
Gallery Pics: 22
Visit TallStef's Gallery
Thanks: 328
Thanked 579 Times in 127 Posts
Images: 22
                     
Quote:
Originally Posted by BeccaGore View Post
She has been told not to do so in the past, and was again reminded heavily when it happened. When I say she helps train him I am talking as if when I was teaching him to sit, and he began to understand the command I would have her also tell him to sit, and give him the treat. I DO NOT allow her to any kind of training that involves her getting close to his mouth in that way. Other than these 2 incidents she knows not to get near his mouth, but again she is a kid, and often needs reminded.

We aren't doing any training classes currently. Everything is home training. Which honestly is going a lot better than I thought. He learns VERY quickly, and loves to please. He does know the "Leave it/Drop it," but not fully just yet.

We were just able to get him a crate today, and he is doing great with it. He will for the most part go to his crate when he is told to, but being his first day of course he is still a little unsure of it.
Awesome! Please keep up the good work. Ideally she should not be in a position where she's allowed to take anything from him, and I would restrict playing with toys from now on. You're really lucky this happened, because now you know that he has the potential to become a resource guarder, and there's time to work on this while he's young. Please check out the edits on my post - I added some videos, as well. Hopefully some other more experienced members will be able to weigh in with some more advice.

A good thing to do would be to get in some training classes or hire a trainer. None of this is "weird" behavior for dogs, but as a family you need to learn to manage it through training the dog and limiting his unsupervised interaction with your daughter. Dogs are simple creatures - they have no way to say, "hey! that's MINE!" other than through growls and body language. Definitely read up on dog body language and try to pinpoint other warning signals he may be giving out - body stiffness, whale eye, hard stare, showing teeth, etc. Dogs usually have a few different behaviors before they go to growling.

After re-reading your post, I'm also noticing another red flag: he's not exhibiting this behavior with you. I know that sounds like a good thing, but it could mean that he's learned to suppress those signals because he's been punished for them before. If you have punished your dog for warning signals like that in the past, please don't in the future - it's their only form of communication before they bite you. You always want a dog that will give warning signals, preferably lots of them, before biting. If he gives you signals that he's uncomfortable, please release the pressure you're putting on him, and redirect him to something else.

My girl has growled at me (seriously) one time and I immediately stopped what I was doing and gave her space. After that, she followed me and gave me a ton of calming signals, such as lip-licking, which is the doggy version of saying, "hey! sorry food-lady! I'm not a threat, let's be friends." I found out later that she was sore from roughhousing, so she got some dog-safe anti-inflammatories, and all was good. Had I ignored her growl and pushed her boundaries, she may have felt cornered and forced to bite me to communicate that she didn't want to be touched. Had I corrected her for the growl, next time I mess up and do something that makes her feel threatened or hurt, she might skip the growling and escalate straight to a bite. I don't want that to happen to me, and I *definitely* don't want that to happen to your kiddo. Dogs can do a lot of damage without even meaning to, especially when hurt or scared, and kids are on face-level.

By the way. . . I love his name. I should have named my dog that. It's such a good name for Doberman puppies! They are the best and the worst things in the world.
4x4bike ped likes this.
TallStef is offline  
The Following User Says Thank You to TallStef For This Useful Post:
melbrod (01-23-2018)
post #6 of 11 (permalink) Old 01-23-2018, 03:48 PM Thread Starter
Lil Dog
 
BeccaGore's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2017
Posts: 52
Location: IL
Dogs Name: Lucifer
Dogs Age: Born: 07/09/2017
Gallery Pics: 1
Visit BeccaGore's Gallery
Thanks: 20
Thanked 36 Times in 21 Posts
Images: 1
   
I got up this morning, and decided I would write out a long post, and try to fill it with as much information as possible. Be warned I am only half way through my first cup of coffee so I will edit my post if I forget anything, or feel free to yell at me if something doesn't make sense.

While Lucifer is a family dog, he is also my dog, if that makes any sense. He will listen to/respond to me more often than anyone else in the house. He will also seek me out for attention, or direction before he will my husband. I personally feel he does so, because 1.) He views me as the leader of the pack, 2.) He senses my husbands nervousness with him. (Not nervous in the sense that Luci will attack one of the kids, or him, but nervous that he may bump, and hurt the baby.) Which it is normal as a parent to have that worry, but I feel as though my husband is projecting it too much, and Luci can feel his hesitancy, and worry. While I however may worry that he could make a mistake, I do not allow it to rule how I train him. I do not let him feel my worry, I've always believed that an animal can feel exactly what you are feeling, and will pick up on the vibes that you are putting out. You can not let your dog feel that you think it will fail.

Commands we know/are working on:


All commands are taught using verbal commands, and hand signals.

Sit - This is the easiest, and quickest usually. (Sometimes he will mix up sit, and lay down.)

Lay down - Once again he was quick to learn this.

Wait - This is mostly used when feeding, or giving treats. For feeding I will cross from the kitchen to the dining room food bowl in hand. He knows that when I come in he is to sit. I give the "Wait" command, and he will lay down as I set his food bowl down. He will continue to lay down waiting about a minute to a minute, and half until I say "Okay" at which point he knows it is now okay to come start eating. For treats I will have him sit, and I will give the "Wait" command then drop/place the treat on the floor, and again he won't touch it until I say "Okay."

Out - When he becomes a little too much to handle, or is way too into someone's business I will point in the direction that I want him to go, and firmly say "Out," he knows that it is time to leave the room, or area.

To your chair - He has a big green moonchair that I used to basically live while I was pregnant with our youngest. It is located in the living room right along side our couch. If he is not permitted to be on the couch at the time, or he is bothering us while we are doing something. I will say "Luci go to your chair," and he will hop up in his chair, and laydown.

Outside/Potty - Simple enough. I will say "outside, or Potty," and he will come running to the door, and sit down until I have the leash attached. Then we head outside.

Inside - When it's time to go inside I will walk up to him leash in hand, and say "Inside" to which he will sit until again I have the leash attached. Once inside he will again sit until I take the leash off. (The sitting while leashing is one of the first things I taught him, because I hated having to chase down my dogs in the past.)

Be Gentle - To take treats, or food gently from hands. All I did was hold the treat in a manner that would only allow him to be able to take little nibbles of the treat while would say "Be Gentle" after a few gentle nibbles I would give him the treat again saying "Be Gentle."

Drop It - (Still working on this one as it is not as consistent as I would like.) I do this with toys, as well as something he is not supposed to have. Unless is it something that could hurt him, then I just have to take from his mouth. (To which he gives no aggressive behavior.) While playing I will throw his toy, and once he is near me again I will repeat the command "Drop It" until he has dropped the toy, and will treat him right away. I would like a little more advice on a more effective way to teach this command.

Leave It - I also use this command while giving treats, or while he is expressing interest in something he is not to have. For treats I will have him sit, and I will say "Leave It" as I drop the treat, and he will not touch it until I say okay. For other things that he is wanting to take, but can not have at the first sign on interest I will combine the lay down command, and the leave it command. I will tell him to lay down (which he will usually try to lay right on top of whatever he is not supposed to have.) Once he lays down I will simply scoot away whatever he was wanting while saying "Leave It." I would also like a little more direction in teaching this command.

Jump - This is just something we do for fun. I will hold the treat just above his head, and tell him to "Jump" he will pop up onto his back legs to get the treat, and I will say "Hold It" to which he stays on his hind legs until I give him the treat.

Look - This is used when giving most commands to center his attention on me, and what I am saying. Simply enough when I say "Look" he knows to look at me directly.

I would like to further the "Leave It" command, and the "Drop It" command as it is essential in good training, and also teaches him boundaries, while also keeping him out of trouble.

He also has a few quirks that I would like to work on, but I have no idea where, or how to start with them.

1.) He always has to put my hand in his mouth. He will do this when we are on the couch, and I am petting him, or if I simply give him a pat as I walk past him. It does not really matter where I put my hand he has to put his mouth around my hand. He doesn't actually bite down, or give off any aggressive vibes, but more like gives my hand a tasting chew. (Which I dislike, because I don't want him to think that hands in mouth something he can do, and puppy teeth hurt, lol.)

When it comes to correcting bad behavior it is more of a stern voice than anything, or a very light pat on the butt to get his attention
BeccaGore is offline  
post #7 of 11 (permalink) Old 01-23-2018, 04:13 PM
well trained hooman
 
RADAR2017's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2017
Posts: 765
Location: St. Paul, MN
Dogs Name: Radar
Titles: King of the couch
Dogs Age: DOB July 29, 2017
Gallery Pics: 2
Visit RADAR2017's Gallery
Thanks: 66
Thanked 1,939 Times in 619 Posts
Images: 2
                     
Quote:
Drop It - (Still working on this one as it is not as consistent as I would like.) I do this with toys, as well as something he is not supposed to have. Unless is it something that could hurt him, then I just have to take from his mouth. (To which he gives no aggressive behavior.) While playing I will throw his toy, and once he is near me again I will repeat the command "Drop It" until he has dropped the toy, and will treat him right away. I would like a little more advice on a more effective way to teach this command.

Leave It - I also use this command while giving treats, or while he is expressing interest in something he is not to have. For treats I will have him sit, and I will say "Leave It" as I drop the treat, and he will not touch it until I say okay. For other things that he is wanting to take, but can not have at the first sign on interest I will combine the lay down command, and the leave it command. I will tell him to lay down (which he will usually try to lay right on top of whatever he is not supposed to have.) Once he lays down I will simply scoot away whatever he was wanting while saying "Leave It." I would also like a little more direction in teaching this command.
Drop it:

I tried to start with shaping drop it first, and it worked a lot easier. Every time Radar picked something up, I would wait until he dropped it, then yes/treat (or click if you prefer). Once he started picking up on that (he started picking stuff up and dropping it, making sure I was watching so he could get a treat), I started doing the same thing, but adding he words "drop it" as it fell to the floor, then yes/treat. Now he will drop whatever it is (not always high value things like dead stuff or garbage treats) when I say "drop it" within a few seconds. If he doesn't do it, I don't repeat the command. I simply go to him, hold his collar, and put my hand in his mouth to take away whatever he has. I usually will pair this with "what do you have" or "what are you eating" in a stern voice. We are about 60% there. It takes a while to really sink in I think, kind of like recall.

Leave it:

In OB 1, we practiced leave it with the dog on leash. We would start by putting them in a sit, then dropping a treat behind us (so they can see it but you can block them if they go for it) while saying "leave it". I used hot dogs, one of his favorite treats. After he got that, I started dropping the treat a little closer to him, until it was right between his feet. Once he got that, I started again from the beginning, but with him in a down. After he mastered it in a down, I repeated again from a stand. Once he could "leave it" from a stand with a treat right under his nose, I worked on more "realistic" situations. I would keep some things that he could have (carrots, green beans, treats, pieces of dog food, etc) on the counter, and pretend to drop a piece or two while I was preparing food. To start, I dropped it on the side farthest from him, so I could block him using the cabinets/wall. Now we are working off leash, and I drop things all over the place - in the middle of the kitchen, next to the fridge, off the dinner table, etc. and we practice leaving it. I also practice while we are on walks. I will walk up close to some of his favorite things (garbage cans, a rock in the neighbor's yard, the corner that he likes to pee at, etc) and tell him to leave it. If he is successful, I stop, put him in a sit, then say "ok" and let him sniff/pee/whatever. If he fails, we keep walking. I like this approach, because I don't have to carry tons of treats on walks anymore...now he is rewarded by gaining access to the things he wants. I do keep some super high value treats in my pocket though, just in case we encounter something particularly distracting/exciting that he can't be allowed access to.

"Money can buy a lot of things, but it doesn't wiggle its butt every time you walk in the door."

RADAR2017 is offline  
post #8 of 11 (permalink) Old 01-23-2018, 05:11 PM
Alpha
 
Beaumont67's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 11,522
Location: St. Thomas, Ontario
Dogs Name: Kelly
Titles: CD Obedience & Therapy
Dogs Age: puppy
Gallery Pics: 0
Visit Beaumont67's Gallery
Thanks: 60,133
Thanked 26,248 Times in 9,513 Posts
                     
Raising A Great Puppy, Part 2: 6 To 14 Months: Puberty And Adolescence

SIX TO FOURTEEN MONTHS: PUBERTY AND ADOLESCENCE

Hormonal changes take place in both the male and female during this time that are similar to the changes that human beings go through during puberty. The surge of hormones can be as dramatic for some dogs as it is for some children. The body has to cope with the changes brought on by the new hormones, while the mind has to cope with the side effects that often accompany the physical upheaval. Like teenagers of any species, the puppy will have mood swings and will at times be distracted, confused and difficult to communicate with. There’s nothing wrong with your dog— he’s just a normal teenager.
>>
>>
>>
>>
AT AROUND NINE MONTHS AGGRESSION CAN BEGIN TO DEVELOP

Between nine and twelve months may come the first sign of aggression, which develops in stages with puppies. Aggression usually emerges in a puppy after nine months and before a year, which is when sexual maturity begins, along with all the hormones that make it happen.

Then, when the dog hits eighteen months and late adolescence, there’s another round of assertion, independence (which you may view as disobedience) and aggression. By about two years of age, many dogs have reached the full extent of whatever aggression they have in them, and there may be a dogfight or biting incident around this time.

You need to be on alert for the emergence of aggression if your puppy has already shown signs of being aggressive — because it takes very little time for him to go from disobedience, to growling, and then to biting. And unless you pay close attention to the signals that he gives off, you can go from a having a darling little puppy (aggression comes in all breeds and sizes) to having a tragedy on your hands.

Aggression problems do not “just happen” — they usually brew for a while, like a volcano before it erupts — so you have to know what markers to look for and how to deal with them. If you ignore the first growl or any other aggression, you can be certain it will escalate to the next level. A growl is a warning — you have to take it seriously. You can’t make excuses for it or hope it was a one-time thing. A growl is the first symptom of an aggressive pattern that will inevitably escalate and have a terrible outcome if you don’t nip it in the bud. But dogs will sometimes develop aggression in a tidy progression, while at other times they may show only a minor warning sign before erupting into full-blown aggression. So no matter how your dog expresses that aggression, take it very seriously and deal with it on the spot.

The bottom line is that if a puppy is born with aggression there’s not much you can do about it. Some breeds have an inborn tendency toward aggression. If a puppy six months or younger growls or snaps or bites, then he’s either got a strong genetic tendency or has been badly abused. Whatever the case, puppies like this often have to be euthanized because you can’t safely keep them and it would not be moral to try to give them away.

Showing aggression before six months old means that the puppy has got it “in his blood,” and sadly, these puppies do not have a high probability of becoming safe, reliable pets. If you have a puppy who is leaning in this direction, get a professional trainer right away because training can’t start too young — even at two months of age. You have a dog who may become a dominant, assertive adult who will need obedience training to put him in his place.

Aggressive behavior and attitudes are not things that a puppy outgrows — in fact, if you don’t curtail those instincts, the puppy will grow into a dog who feels free to act on aggressive impulses. A puppy has to learn that you will not tolerate any aggression by him against other dogs or smaller animals. Your puppy must be raised to understand that every human is above him in terms of “the pack.” (The whole idea of viewing domestic dogs in terms of the wolf packs from which they evolved is explained in detail later in this section and in “Obedience and Other Training.” Briefly, all dogs expect a leader in their pack: they will take a backseat and chill out if you take the leadership role according to the wolf modality, which is about being in charge without taking charge.)

Copyright © Tracie Hotchner – Originally appeared in The Dog Bible: Everything Your Dog Wants You to Know by Tracie Hotchner http://www.radiopetlady.com/radio-pe...d-adolescence/

Quote:
Originally Posted by BeccaGore View Post
Lucifer is 6 months old now, and so far he is doing pretty well.
>>
>>
What are some ways in better correcting this behavior?
^^ Good reading:
- I will formulate a response tonight
- Lucifer new growling @ 6 months old, is more common as puberty sets in...its usually the timing
More reading - & see my Post #2... https://www.dobermantalk.com/general-...py-biting.html

------------Kelly & (Amy - RIP @ 11.7 y/o)

Last edited by Beaumont67; 01-23-2018 at 05:23 PM.
Beaumont67 is offline  
post #9 of 11 (permalink) Old 01-23-2018, 08:27 PM
Alpha
 
Beaumont67's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 11,522
Location: St. Thomas, Ontario
Dogs Name: Kelly
Titles: CD Obedience & Therapy
Dogs Age: puppy
Gallery Pics: 0
Visit Beaumont67's Gallery
Thanks: 60,133
Thanked 26,248 Times in 9,513 Posts
                     
I've had 3 pups over the decades, all from top show breeders.
- dog #1 growled at mom, because it was mad it couldn't go for a car ride...when dad headed off for work
- something we both fixed, she was 9 months old and hormones changed / in puberty
- pup #2 never growled at any family member
- pup #3 growled over taking her sucky blanket away, at night time...no longer a problem

Quote:
Originally Posted by BeccaGore View Post
...........
While Lucifer is a family dog, he is also my dog, if that makes any sense. He will listen to/respond to me more often than anyone else in the house. He will also seek me out for attention, or direction before he will my husband. I personally feel he does so, because 1.) He views me as the leader of the pack, 2.) He senses my husbands nervousness with him. (Not nervous in the sense that Luci will attack one of the kids, or him, but nervous that he may bump, and hurt the baby.) Which it is normal as a parent to have that worry, but I feel as though my husband is projecting it too much, and Luci can feel his hesitancy, and worry. While I however may worry that he could make a mistake, I do not allow it to rule how I train him. I do not let him feel my worry, I've always believed that an animal can feel exactly what you are feeling, and will pick up on the vibes that you are putting out. You can not let your dog feel that you think it will fail...........
I've seen an overly aggressive Mastiff female that only respected the MOM, and was euthanized after it wouldn't stop drawing blood, on the kids ankles / as soon as they came home from public school...it Loved the Mom in the family, to much...and she was blinded to that fact, and thought it was initially cute.
- I spend a serious 15 minutes with the dog, after it tried to crack my cheek bone with a big head bunt
- only 2 people, that big dog would listen to...while I was the other

Your hubby MUST be for starters, on your same level as mommy / so daughter can gain some stature, in the family hierarchy.
- he needs to do all the training now
- you need to stop letting Lucifer control you, by mouthing your hand all the time / make him pickup and hold a toy
- some dogs can get over growling with the right correction
- but many unskilled owners, can cause more harm than good
- its wrong for any family member to be less confident and partially afraid of ones dog
Just some random thoughts...making a solution, difficult for me to agree on...in your home.

I don't let a dog ever real-growl, at one of its adult family pack / but we are overly consistent, can read dogs, are never afraid of them, etc.
- if one can't keep a lid on a garbage can & chicken pieces off the floor
- your blue boy came from a BYB cheap, that had an albino in the litter...enough said
- now your boys temperament is in question
- what can I say, that makes a true difference / more unknowns here...than meets the eye

------------Kelly & (Amy - RIP @ 11.7 y/o)

Last edited by Beaumont67; 01-23-2018 at 08:39 PM.
Beaumont67 is offline  
post #10 of 11 (permalink) Old 01-24-2018, 07:35 AM
Alpha
 
LadyDi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2017
Posts: 5,872
Location: Florida
Dogs Name: Hoss
Titles: Proud European Doberman
Dogs Age: 3
Gallery Pics: 4
Visit LadyDi's Gallery
Thanks: 39,718
Thanked 17,358 Times in 5,073 Posts
Images: 4
                     
Click here to find out how LadyDi became a supporter
Set him up..put some some vinegar or bitter apple on those hands......yuk...hak hak......LOL

Hoss
LadyDi is offline  
post #11 of 11 (permalink) Old 01-24-2018, 11:43 AM
Super Moderator
 
MeadowCat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 20,499
Location: MN
Dogs Name: Richter; Sypha; RIP Shanoa & Simon
Titles: Richter: CAA L1V NW1 L1I L1E L1C NW2 L2V ACT1 RATI WAC; Sypha: NW1 NW2 L1C L1V L1E RATI SOG WAC
Dogs Age: d.o.b. 7/13/2012; d.o.b. 12/6/2015
Gallery Pics: 1
Visit MeadowCat's Gallery
Thanks: 49,068
Thanked 62,659 Times in 16,783 Posts
Images: 1
                     
Click here to find out how MeadowCat became a supporter
You are going to get a lot of different opinions from different people.

My preference is always to recommend you work with a good trainer who can help you in person. Having someone you trust and that you "click" with to see how you work with your dog is, in my opinion, always best. Finding someone that you can bounce ideas off, who can see how you implement advice, how you are doing the training, that you can go to with questions...that's really valuable. More than just going to one set of classes, but really having a relationship with a trainer - in my opinion, that's worth its weight in gold. My trainers do so much more than just give me an hour of their time each week when we go to a class...it's "gosh, I'm struggling with this issues - any ideas?" And they know each of my dogs' particular quirks, and how to work with THAT dog, and what to try if something isn't working. So my first recommendation is very strongly to find a good trainer! My go-to place to look for trainers is here: Certified Dog Trainer and Behavior Consultant Directory - CCPDT

Second, it sounds (to me) like he might be developing just a little bit of resource guarding, which is very normal canine behavior. That's tied in to teaching "leave it" and "drop it." Rather than messing with his food and taking it away, I actually like to teach my dogs that when I approach their food bowl, good things happen. I start from puppyhood...my hand goes toward their bowl and magically drops in a very high value treat. I keep this up - I walk by the food, and something yummy drops in! I do this really often, so that hands toward food mean "hooray! something AWESOME is about to happen!" I want my dog to look up with anticipation at me if I reach toward their food. That means that if at some point I DO need to take their food away, for some reason, they aren't going to get panicky about it, because there's such a strong history of my hands and presence being SUCH a good thing.

In relation to that, I want my presence and reaching towards them when they have something of high value to be VERY predictive of something good happening, so when I teach "leave it" and "drop it" we start with them having very low value things and they get something VERY high value if they leave or drop the item they have. So they might "leave" a very low value piece of kibble in order to get a high value piece of CHEESE or HOT DOG - YAY! And we work our way up...they need a TON of repetitions to build the brain pathways that make it a habit, rather than a choice. It should be a hugely positive association for them, and become REFLEX...and you want it to be HAPPY - if you approach them when they have something delicious, you don't want them to anticipate something BAD. Generally, if my dogs have something awesome, like a raw bone, they are in their crates, undisturbed, and when it's time to take it away I'm going to trade them for something pretty delicious - maybe a tripe treat - so that they aren't giving up something fabulous every time.

And if we encounter a dangerous situation where they must drop something, we have built up enough repetitions of "drop it" being a GOOD thing that they will do it happily...this situation JUST happened this past weekend. We were on a walk. Sypha and Richter dug in a snowbank and Sypha came up with her mouth closed in a weird way, so I immediately said firmly "Drop it!!!!". She opened her mouth and out dropped some kind of cooked bone! I threw her a party - GOOD GIRL! Yay for you!!!! And I had treats with me, since I always do when we walk, and she got about 10 treats in a row, so she thought she hit the jackpot. Training success!

Dogs aren't being dominant or things like that when they don't listen...they just do what is rewarding for them. If he hasn't had enough repetitions of things with your husband that "paid off" for him, or it wasn't clear to him that he was "successful," then he isn't going to repeat the behavior. Dogs like things to be clear and consistent - they are very smart and they can figure out that what is required behavior for one person isn't required from another. If your husband wants your pup to sit or down or go to his bed, he has to practice those behaviors with him, and reward him for doing them correctly. Dogs will happily perform behaviors that get them a "paycheck" (just like people!). The more things are reinforced, the more they will do them!


DSC_0133
by Shanoa Delta, on Flickr

Richter & Sypha
Glengate's Mountain Fortress CAA ORT L1E L1C NW2 L2V L2I ACT1 RATI SOG WAC
& Sirai's Golden Masquerade ORT L1V L1E L2C L2I NW2 RATI SOG TKN WAC
“You cannot get through a single day without having an impact on the world around you.
What you do makes a difference, and you have to decide what kind of difference you want to make.”
― Jane Goodall
MeadowCat is offline  
The Following 6 Users Say Thank You to MeadowCat For This Useful Post:
4x4bike ped (01-24-2018), Beaumont67 (01-24-2018), dobebug (01-24-2018), giselakim (01-24-2018), ShelianDobe (01-26-2018), TallStef (01-24-2018)
Advertisement
 
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now



In order to be able to post messages on the Doberman Forum : Doberman Breed Dog Forums forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.

User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Password:


Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.

Email Address:
OR

Log-in










Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page
Display Modes
Linear Mode Linear Mode



Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome