Doberman puppy biting - Doberman Forum : Doberman Breed Dog Forums
General Training & Obedience All training and obedience questions, tips, articles go here

 9Likes
  • 3 Post By 4x4bike ped
  • 1 Post By Beaumont67
  • 1 Post By dobebug
  • 1 Post By RMcIntyre
  • 1 Post By Beaumont67
  • 1 Post By dobebug
  • 1 Post By 4x4bike ped
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
post #1 of 16 (permalink) Old 11-03-2017, 08:10 PM Thread Starter
Big Lil pup
 
4x4bike ped's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2015
Posts: 5,735
Location: Portland, OR
Dogs Name: Foxfire's The Real McCoy (McCoy)
Titles: Pet of the Year
Dogs Age: DOB 9/12/14
Gallery Pics: 9
Visit 4x4bike ped's Gallery
Thanks: 14,759
Thanked 13,409 Times in 4,671 Posts
Images: 9
                     
Doberman puppy biting

Since no one else will start a new thread about one of the most common issues with Doberman pups, I guess will.

Recently there has been a lot of questions on DT about puppy "aggression" .

There have been some really good responses from well informed and "seasoned" Doberman owners. Yet it all seems to get lost in the fray. It seems like once a day someone comes on with the same darn question. "Why is my puppy biting me or others?"

I think that we should start a thread that specifically addresses this very common issue.

I am hoping that all the folks who have chimed in on these previous posts will show up and give their opinions and experience.

If we get enough knowledgeable responses, possibly we could "sticky" it and inquiries could be directed there.

Anyone interested?

I really think t would be helpful and less repetitive. I would love to participate with my less than popular POV. LOL

Thanks all

John
Portland OR
Beaumont67, Mystic and ECIN like this.
4x4bike ped is offline  
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to 4x4bike ped For This Useful Post:
Bluedobie (11-04-2017), jv17 (02-28-2018)
Advertisement
 
post #2 of 16 (permalink) Old 11-03-2017, 11:56 PM
Alpha
 
Beaumont67's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 10,967
Location: St. Thomas, Ontario
Dogs Name: Kelly
Titles: CD Obedience & Therapy
Dogs Age: puppy
Gallery Pics: 0
Visit Beaumont67's Gallery
Thanks: 55,416
Thanked 23,233 Times in 8,968 Posts
                     
OK I'll play - a sticky would be a good idea, to centralize methods.

Problem - Doberman puppy biting:

^^ My early training method has been coined here the "Beaumont Theory - Soft Bite/Muzzle Control", several years ago.
- may seen unorthodox at first glance, but I've had some good feedback/testimonials if given a chance

Mouthing for attention?
I don't worry about initial hand biting, its completely normal and gives one a chance to train soft bite/muzzle control starting from day1.
I approach puppy mouthing like a valuable learning experience, and treat as a very necessary opportunity.
My puppy biting rules are:
a) Mom is off limits to any/all mouthing...instead, Dad will fill the void/puppy mouthing need
b) only Dads hands are allowable body parts, for teeth to touch
c) no biting legs, feet, butt, arms, neck or face allowed
d) I don't redirect much and never leave the room to ignore puppy / if I leave the room, pup may consider that a win

I will stop puppy from constantly biting me, by putting my hand in their mouth (on purpose).
So this Dad offers up his hand as the sacrificial lamb, while young pup is still little.
My Training Method:
a) use my thumb or index finger, placed behind the molar teeth deep in mouth / and when pup bits down I am not getting hurt, because their gums clamping on me is ineffective
b) make a fist and wedge it in the pups mouth, so the pup is left with a wide open mouth momentarily, it can't close its jaws or exhibit much of any force
c) I will place my thump tip under pups tongue behind its little front teeth & it doesn't hurt...and hold it there, inside the lower jaw
d) I will grab K9 teeth (2 usually on the lower jaw) with my thumb and index finger looped together...pup twists & turns, and Dad lets go / pup can't bite back, when their teeth/jaw muscles are being effectively restrained
e) grab pups nose with my hand lightly & softly shake it, to initiate a playful reaction of open mouth

^^ Then I start saying "BE GENTLE" and "You CAN'T HURT DAD", soon they accept that I have some strange "super man" powers and the frequency and severity of biting decreases...now puppy is on the way to learning soft bite/muzzle control.
- because Dad's hand became the bite toy initally, I spared Mom from most of it
- and this direct hand approach, spared the family members from extra bits to the ankles, ass, face, arms, etc...which are off limits
- pup learned quick enough, my hand was the only bite target in the home...now our puppy likes to suck my thumb some

All this is playful, and teaches the human owner holds some sort of magic powers, that later will NEVER be challenged.
Next I proof the forever soft bite & controlled jaw muzzles with tennis ball in the mouth play.
- I tease pup with touching tennis ball on the tip of its nose
- allowing it to bit the ball, and I am constantly rotating it between its teeth
- ball is directed in & out of its mouth while the back of my fingers come into contact with the sharp tips of the long K9 teeth
- this is when, pup has come to respect the owners hand, and relaxes its ball grip considerably to not hurt the hand that feeds it

Also play tug-of-war sometimes the same way, wind up the puppy in excited play.
- but if my finger(s) accidentally enters the mouth of teeth, softness in bite is shown...in a split second
Finally, I teach young pup to take a half exposed peanut or almond out of my lips, in a very soft and controlled manner.

Soft Bite Training, lasts the dogs life time / it starts when their babies.
I've made it work on low, medium & high prey drive pups / building trust & respect, way before they grow up and reach maturity with much strength.

TESTIMONIAL & Further Comments below:

Quote:
Originally Posted by mathew View Post
the back gum trick (a) has been working well for me! thanks.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Beaumont67 View Post
Mathew that is awesome...now you can build on this experience...in fun.
[aka...another Beaumont Theory, tip below]

P.S.–
you know the best way to assert "slight" dominance over a bad dober moment (easily & effectively):
(I know the alpha principles, has been debunked......yet once a week, a new member posts "my son got bit in the face or his ear needed stitches")

FYI - Therefore, place your hand around pups muzzle, and slap your own hand, on very top...somewhat lightly.
Transmitting “CLEAR-NO-vibration-DISAPPROVAL, while maintaining doggy spirit...some may call any raised hand as negative, but its all in execution.

Comments from a recent friend, I gave training advice:- I tried your method of a hand on the muzzle and am VERY pleased with the results. Bxxx not afraid of my hand and doesn't seem to be developing any kind of fear because it doesn't hurt her, it just shows her that I am in charge and I don't like what she's doing. While she is very drivey, and independent, she does thrive on knowing I am in charge. She is only a puppy after all - we'll be celebrating her first birthday next month.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Beaumont67 View Post
WinterFyre - You took some of my points out of context, so be it !!

I wrote my perspective on mouthing, at the puppy age.
Thinking outside the box some & sharing my personal experience while having eliminated associated risks.
a) my dogs are personally trained to only mouth me alone...no one else
b) my dogs are trained to not break my skin or ever come close, as their leader / 100% guaranteed
c) our 2nd pup (former Amy) enjoyed many elderly patient visits in local hospital (dying ward) and interacting with seniors in nursing home
- as a certified therapy dog, she become the star Doberman and breed ambassador in the program, everyone loved her...she was always most sweet and very compassionate
- one guy (95 y/o) even stole cookies out of the kitchen for Amy...he would hand feed her, and she was extremely well mannered & loving to others

We all have goals for our dogs, and my methods have never jeopardized mine...that's the beauty of a dog forum...share what works & implement strategies based on your belief system and comfort level.
Our current Kelly was a handful, but after 2 months of consistency, biting stopped...incredible Soft Bite now.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Beaumont67 View Post
^^ Did the same with puppy Kelly, but used the 20 minute Calm rule / every time our son visited with his 7# little Trevor...both tried to torment the other, and be King of the Castle.
- puppy Kelly being much bigger, needed to learn some calming techniques
- since I often sit at my computer table, a 5' leash was tied to one of the legs of the desk
- young Kelly's collar was clipped to the leash while Dad sat a few feet away, to supervise / and browse DT
(kill 2 birds with one stone...LOL)
- she was asked to lay down, beside the desk
- 20 minutes in a down position, was timed until she got the message
- and puppy could be released into the living room again

From: https://www.whole-dog-journal.com/is...s_20259-1.html
Not every dog owner has access to large tracts of acreage upon which to exercise their unruly canines, and in any case, “wild child canine syndrome” (WCCS) is more than just lack of exercise; it’s also lack of appropriate reinforcement for calm behavior – i.e., training. Unfortunately, all too often a dog loses his happy home – maybe even his life, as a result of his high-energy behavior.

PS - just like some children get straight A's in school / others get average grades and some failing grades.
- puppies are all different in smarts, temperament & willingness to please...all individual & different
- some pups have Lower prey drive & easy / some more Medium / others have High drive & likely more independent

^^ I've had all 3 categories, in 3 pups / so training ranges from very easy to much more difficult.
- Uno & our Kel, must be related some......full of piss & vinegar
Mireille likes this.

------------Kelly & (Amy - RIP @ 11.7 y/o)

Last edited by Beaumont67; 11-04-2017 at 12:25 AM.
Beaumont67 is offline  
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Beaumont67 For This Useful Post:
4x4bike ped (11-04-2017), RMcIntyre (11-04-2017)
post #3 of 16 (permalink) Old 11-04-2017, 03:46 PM
Alpha
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 7,774

Gallery Pics: 0
Visit dobebug's Gallery
Thanks: 11,676
Thanked 22,391 Times in 5,953 Posts
                     
Quote:
Originally Posted by 4x4bike ped View Post
Since no one else will start a new thread about one of the most common issues with Doberman pups, I guess will.

Recently there has been a lot of questions on DT about puppy "aggression" .

There have been some really good responses from well informed and "seasoned" Doberman owners. Yet it all seems to get lost in the fray. It seems like once a day someone comes on with the same darn question. "Why is my puppy biting me or others?"

I think that we should start a thread that specifically addresses this very common issue.

I am hoping that all the folks who have chimed in on these previous posts will show up and give their opinions and experience.

If we get enough knowledgeable responses, possibly we could "sticky" it and inquiries could be directed there.

Anyone interested?

I really think t would be helpful and less repetitive. I would love to participate with my less than popular POV. LOL

Thanks all


John
Portland OR
Sure, I'm interested--maybe we could get one of the monitors involved to see if it would be OK to put up a sticky about puppy biting--I've certainly written many posts all pretty much saying the same thing about the reasons puppies bite and what to do about it and what works best (in my opinion.)

I'm just not sure if I want to write out something lengthy that just ends up in the general population of posts and not as a sticky.

Let me know...
4x4bike ped likes this.
dobebug is offline  
Advertisement
 
post #4 of 16 (permalink) Old 11-04-2017, 04:14 PM
Alpha
 
RMcIntyre's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2015
Posts: 529
Location: Havana Florida
Dogs Name: CH Merrimac's Reflection v Brachmar GCH Merrimac's Mirage For Mi Casa (Mikki)

Gallery Pics: 6
Visit RMcIntyre's Gallery
Thanks: 608
Thanked 1,124 Times in 377 Posts
Images: 6
                     
I have done things similar to Beaumont. I have not done the fist part. But when playing with a pup I have either taken the side of my hand that is already in their mouth and put it all the way to the back of their mouth, then they want it out. Or I will wrap my fingers around their lower jaw which once again they want it out of their mouth. so They learn that they can play that way with ME and as long as it stays in a certain range it is ok. My youngest son thought it was ok to let them bite pant legs and drag. Yep lots of fun. Not for me because I kept having to buy him new pants because the bottom six inches would get destroyed.
Beaumont67 likes this.
RMcIntyre is offline  
The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to RMcIntyre For This Useful Post:
4x4bike ped (11-04-2017), Beaumont67 (11-04-2017), dobebug (11-04-2017)
post #5 of 16 (permalink) Old 11-04-2017, 04:51 PM Thread Starter
Big Lil pup
 
4x4bike ped's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2015
Posts: 5,735
Location: Portland, OR
Dogs Name: Foxfire's The Real McCoy (McCoy)
Titles: Pet of the Year
Dogs Age: DOB 9/12/14
Gallery Pics: 9
Visit 4x4bike ped's Gallery
Thanks: 14,759
Thanked 13,409 Times in 4,671 Posts
Images: 9
                     
Quote:
Originally Posted by dobebug View Post
Sure, I'm interested--maybe we could get one of the monitors involved to see if it would be OK to put up a sticky about puppy biting--I've certainly written many posts all pretty much saying the same thing about the reasons puppies bite and what to do about it and what works best (in my opinion.)

I'm just not sure if I want to write out something lengthy that just ends up in the general population of posts and not as a sticky.

Let me know...
Mods? This might be a very helpful permanent thread if we could get some involvement. There is no singular answer to Doberman puppy hard play. Our suggestions run the gamut.It would be great if everyone who has a suggestion, no matter how unpopular (like mine) would speak up. Most of us here have dealt with puppy biting and very accelerated play. Most must have a story of how they dealt with it (or didn't).

John
Portland OR
4x4bike ped is offline  
The Following User Says Thank You to 4x4bike ped For This Useful Post:
Beaumont67 (11-04-2017)
post #6 of 16 (permalink) Old 11-05-2017, 08:41 AM
Alpha
 
Beaumont67's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 10,967
Location: St. Thomas, Ontario
Dogs Name: Kelly
Titles: CD Obedience & Therapy
Dogs Age: puppy
Gallery Pics: 0
Visit Beaumont67's Gallery
Thanks: 55,416
Thanked 23,233 Times in 8,968 Posts
                     
MODS - is a sticky decision forthcoming ?

Bump !!
B67 - supports this thread & votes for sticky.

I chose to post tips, regardless of ruling made / as I'll reference this thread, in the future.
- but their appears to be some "hold back-resistance" until the Moderators decide

DT Members stay, some come & go / a live document on actual problem solving, our Doberman puppies...Great !!
- offers tremendous value, based on decades of breed experience / all in one spot
- current members are a respectful bunch now, and can appreciate common & diversity...in opinions

^^ A real "Solutions Thread", is far to important / not to let unfold & grow, in content !!
- lets tap into this wealth of knowledge (here)...and Document, what techniques do work
LadyDi likes this.

------------Kelly & (Amy - RIP @ 11.7 y/o)

Last edited by Beaumont67; 11-05-2017 at 09:02 AM.
Beaumont67 is offline  
post #7 of 16 (permalink) Old 11-07-2017, 12:02 AM
Alpha
 
Beaumont67's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 10,967
Location: St. Thomas, Ontario
Dogs Name: Kelly
Titles: CD Obedience & Therapy
Dogs Age: puppy
Gallery Pics: 0
Visit Beaumont67's Gallery
Thanks: 55,416
Thanked 23,233 Times in 8,968 Posts
                     
Quote:
Originally Posted by dobebug View Post
...........I'm just not sure if I want to write out something lengthy that just ends up in the general population of posts and not as a sticky.

Let me know...
This happened on another Forum:
It used to be a sticky, then it was placed in the master reference thread and far
less people could see this thread.

Since the Mods haven't shared their thoughts here (??) / why not just add to this thread, regardless.

Personally, I seldom see the DT sticky links, like once a year / I just refresh with "New Posts" daily.
- so maybe a sticky, would limit reading...??
- or has the training grapes, "withered up on the vine" here?......seems like it

------------Kelly & (Amy - RIP @ 11.7 y/o)

Last edited by Beaumont67; 11-07-2017 at 12:15 AM.
Beaumont67 is offline  
The Following User Says Thank You to Beaumont67 For This Useful Post:
spocksdad (02-11-2018)
post #8 of 16 (permalink) Old 11-07-2017, 09:48 AM
Super Moderator
 
greenkouki's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 14,902
Location: SC

Gallery Pics: 77
Visit greenkouki's Gallery
Thanks: 19,745
Thanked 30,603 Times in 9,877 Posts
Images: 77
                     
Click here to find out how greenkouki became a supporter
greenkouki is offline  
The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to greenkouki For This Useful Post:
dobebug (11-07-2017), melbrod (11-07-2017), TallStef (02-11-2018)
post #9 of 16 (permalink) Old 11-08-2017, 02:05 PM
Alpha
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 7,774

Gallery Pics: 0
Visit dobebug's Gallery
Thanks: 11,676
Thanked 22,391 Times in 5,953 Posts
                     
The reason I asked about making it a sticky with the mods involved was because when I answer questions from a specific post I address specific questions and issues in that post. If I were going to write something for a sticky on biting puppies I'd probably write it rather differently.

I don't look at the sticky posts all that often either--maybe every few weeks--and I do it so that I can refer people to them when I think the sticky itself answers their questions.
4x4bike ped likes this.
dobebug is offline  
post #10 of 16 (permalink) Old 11-08-2017, 02:18 PM Thread Starter
Big Lil pup
 
4x4bike ped's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2015
Posts: 5,735
Location: Portland, OR
Dogs Name: Foxfire's The Real McCoy (McCoy)
Titles: Pet of the Year
Dogs Age: DOB 9/12/14
Gallery Pics: 9
Visit 4x4bike ped's Gallery
Thanks: 14,759
Thanked 13,409 Times in 4,671 Posts
Images: 9
                     
@ green

Yes,,, I bet i could approach at least a dozen members to write up their POV with respect to puppy biting.

Aside from ear posting questions, health issues or breeder questions, puppy "aggressive" playing is probably the most common question and issue on DT.

John
Portland OR
dobebug likes this.

Last edited by 4x4bike ped; 11-08-2017 at 02:24 PM.
4x4bike ped is offline  
post #11 of 16 (permalink) Old 02-11-2018, 09:29 PM
Alpha
 
Beaumont67's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 10,967
Location: St. Thomas, Ontario
Dogs Name: Kelly
Titles: CD Obedience & Therapy
Dogs Age: puppy
Gallery Pics: 0
Visit Beaumont67's Gallery
Thanks: 55,416
Thanked 23,233 Times in 8,968 Posts
                     
A long & diverse/opposing discussion - a good reference, that needs linked into a central thread.
https://www.dobermantalk.com/general-...last-week.html

------------Kelly & (Amy - RIP @ 11.7 y/o)

Last edited by Beaumont67; 02-11-2018 at 09:48 PM.
Beaumont67 is offline  
The Following User Says Thank You to Beaumont67 For This Useful Post:
4x4bike ped (02-11-2018)
post #12 of 16 (permalink) Old 02-11-2018, 10:37 PM Thread Starter
Big Lil pup
 
4x4bike ped's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2015
Posts: 5,735
Location: Portland, OR
Dogs Name: Foxfire's The Real McCoy (McCoy)
Titles: Pet of the Year
Dogs Age: DOB 9/12/14
Gallery Pics: 9
Visit 4x4bike ped's Gallery
Thanks: 14,759
Thanked 13,409 Times in 4,671 Posts
Images: 9
                     
Well... let's initiate a thread about Doberman puppies and their tendency to bite the ones they love.

I will start by saying that my youngest is classic example. I picked him up at 10 weeks from a well known local breeder. She asked me to stick around while the pups were fed and had a chance to "play", so I could help her remove the last of his sutures.

I watched while these pups were pig piling and seemingly were beating the crap out of each other. They were having a ball! The whole liter was involved. No whining, no crying , just doing what Dobe babies do. Playing in a very, very rough way.

So... fast forward to a relatively calm household with no hyper/goofy sibs.... What's a pup supposed to do?

LOL... You can guess who becomes the "target" of Doberman puppy play. US!

Well... Everyone deals with it differently. Me, I don't really give a darn. The puppy bite wounds hurt, but they heal (Thanks Neosporin!).

Others (dobebug comes to mind) does not tolerate being "mouthed".. Ever. And I understand that. It is a behavior that can easily be mitigated if one so chooses.

I would just love to hear anecdotal experiences of how you all dealt with the over the top puppy play with baby Dobermans.

I am at the low, totally tolerant end ( Meh... they grow out of it). Bug is at the total opposite end of the spectrum. (No teeth on me!) . We are both right. And in the end the dog pretty much ends up where he will be vis a vis his/her relationship with their owner.

So.... Who would like to talk about DoberSharks?

It might be really helpful to first time Dobe puppy owners.

Thanks

John
Portland OR
4x4bike ped is offline  
The Following User Says Thank You to 4x4bike ped For This Useful Post:
Beaumont67 (02-11-2018)
post #13 of 16 (permalink) Old 02-11-2018, 11:22 PM
Alpha
 
Beaumont67's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 10,967
Location: St. Thomas, Ontario
Dogs Name: Kelly
Titles: CD Obedience & Therapy
Dogs Age: puppy
Gallery Pics: 0
Visit Beaumont67's Gallery
Thanks: 55,416
Thanked 23,233 Times in 8,968 Posts
                     
^^ In this household - puppy biting is a combination of 4x4 & BUG approach.

Dad is the sacrificial pin cushion...hand attacks only / for a predetermined time limit, I set based on prey drive.
Mom is totally off limits to any/all bite attacks.
- they get to relax in evening, watching TV together
- a calming time, enforced & practiced with their new mom
- all body parts attacking is an absolute No-Go, except for my bare hands (2 months max.)

------------Kelly & (Amy - RIP @ 11.7 y/o)

Last edited by Beaumont67; 02-11-2018 at 11:38 PM.
Beaumont67 is offline  
The Following User Says Thank You to Beaumont67 For This Useful Post:
4x4bike ped (02-11-2018)
post #14 of 16 (permalink) Old 02-12-2018, 08:33 AM
well trained hooman
 
RADAR2017's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2017
Posts: 750
Location: St. Paul, MN
Dogs Name: Radar
Titles: King of the couch
Dogs Age: DOB July 29, 2017
Gallery Pics: 2
Visit RADAR2017's Gallery
Thanks: 65
Thanked 1,848 Times in 604 Posts
Images: 2
                     
I wish I would have kept all the pants/leggings that succumbed to "Dobershark" attacks for a photo...thank goodness Radar is over that nonsense.

"Money can buy a lot of things, but it doesn't wiggle its butt every time you walk in the door."

RADAR2017 is offline  
The Following User Says Thank You to RADAR2017 For This Useful Post:
4x4bike ped (02-12-2018)
post #15 of 16 (permalink) Old 02-12-2018, 08:56 AM
Super Moderator
 
greenkouki's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 14,902
Location: SC

Gallery Pics: 77
Visit greenkouki's Gallery
Thanks: 19,745
Thanked 30,603 Times in 9,877 Posts
Images: 77
                     
Click here to find out how greenkouki became a supporter
We have a good thread on puppy biting that's a sticky in the puppy forum

https://www.dobermantalk.com/puppy-co...biting-me.html
greenkouki is offline  
The Following 4 Users Say Thank You to greenkouki For This Useful Post:
4x4bike ped (02-12-2018), alan j. (02-12-2018), MeadowCat (02-12-2018), melbrod (02-12-2018)
post #16 of 16 (permalink) Old 02-12-2018, 10:38 AM Thread Starter
Big Lil pup
 
4x4bike ped's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2015
Posts: 5,735
Location: Portland, OR
Dogs Name: Foxfire's The Real McCoy (McCoy)
Titles: Pet of the Year
Dogs Age: DOB 9/12/14
Gallery Pics: 9
Visit 4x4bike ped's Gallery
Thanks: 14,759
Thanked 13,409 Times in 4,671 Posts
Images: 9
                     
Silly me! Must have had my STJ! hat on....

John
Portland OR
4x4bike ped is offline  
The Following User Says Thank You to 4x4bike ped For This Useful Post:
Beaumont67 (02-12-2018)
Advertisement
 
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now



In order to be able to post messages on the Doberman Forum : Doberman Breed Dog Forums forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.

User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Password:


Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.

Email Address:
OR

Log-in










Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page
Display Modes
Linear Mode Linear Mode



Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome