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post #1 of 25 (permalink) Old 02-06-2017, 12:35 AM Thread Starter
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Socialization

Jack will be 6 months on February 12th. He's finally cleared of his stomach issues, praying it lasts, and we tried to socialize today. My friend has a 1 year old Rott. Super friendly not aggressive. We introduced them at my house on leashes outside. Not in the yard. They both just seemed unsure. Jacks tail was wagging and he was very vocal, barking, talking, trying to play. But the Rott would back up and growl. In turn, jack would growl back and it kept going on like that. My question is, is it too late to socialize? The stomach issues set us back because we didn't want to infect other dogs and we missed a crucial time. He was at training with other dogs before his stomach issues with no problems. If it's not too late, what's the best way to introduce him to other dogs?

On a side note, he's almost 6 months and his play biting has not stopped. He still likes to bite hands, limbs, arms, and legs (mainly my wife). When you yell at him or 'yelp' it amps him up more and he bites harder. We have left the room, calms him down for a minute, then sometimes right back to the behavior. We've tried the e-collar in an 'out' kind of training. Getting him to let go of whatever is in his mouth. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. My question: will the play biting eventually just stop? Should we do anything further? He's gotten better, but he still has moments. Scars scabs and cuts later, we want it to stop. Thanks!


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post #2 of 25 (permalink) Old 02-06-2017, 05:48 AM
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Was the rott also male ? Some dobes are very same sex aggressive.

I would start out with a dog of the opposite sex.

I also would find a neutral closed in yard to let them meet off leash in so one or the other does not already "own" the yard.
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post #3 of 25 (permalink) Old 02-06-2017, 09:44 AM Thread Starter
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Was the rott also male ? Some dobes are very same sex aggressive.

I would start out with a dog of the opposite sex.

I also would find a neutral closed in yard to let them meet off leash in so one or the other does not already "own" the yard.


Hi! Yes the Rottie is a male. But I figured it would be fine since Jack is still a puppy (5.5 months). He's been around both with no problems in the past, but when he was much younger. I'm afraid that we may have lost the socialization window. He's great with all people and kids though.


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post #4 of 25 (permalink) Old 02-06-2017, 10:39 AM
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First dogs are not deaf so yelling is a poor choice of control. By this time you should have a handle on the biting. Have your tried redirection? I have trained many Doberman puppies and while they are bitey I find that if you don't offer body parts to them then they learn to choose other things. So I would keep a stuffed toy or tuggy close by and when they come in to bite present the tuggy toy. If he actually gets close enough to bite then take his collar and calmly make him sit and hold his collar til he settles down. Of course, if he now runs from you because you yell then you have another challenge. Dogs should always feel the safest place is next to you. So start with him on leash and take hold of his collar and reward him. Tug lightly on the collar and reward him. Teach him reaching for him brings a treat. Yelling is escalation to them not calming them down and also teaches the to fear you. A true leader does not have to yell.

It is not to late to socialize. DO NOT DO THIS UNLESS YOU ARE comfortable with it.....You must be confident and not give off negative vibes......I already know many will freak at this advise. I have held group dog events and I always tell folks just come in and take the leashes off and step away. Unless a dog is dog aggressive they will not start a fight but be too busy trying to figure out what to do and then suddenly the run is on and off they go. It is a beautiful site to see.

I would recommend meeting and going for a long walk together first then come back to the fenced yard and just turn them both loose and walk away as you just drop the two leashes in case you need to stop them from playing too rough. You did not say if the Rottie had been socialized or not. A leash often creates more problems than you would believe when trying to introduce two dogs. Holding dogs back that want to meet creates more excitement and frustration as they try to get to each other. The Rottie may be trying to be protective of his owner so by turning them loose they have nothing to protect. ( flame suit on)

I personally do not socialize my dogs with other dogs because I do not want them bonding with other dogs. I want to be their end all end all. I do take them to training and they see and are around other dogs but they are learning to work so they pay no attention to other dogs. I am good with it as long as they do not show any signs of attention to another dog. If you do obedience and go for a long down I don't want my dog to think AHHHH its play time so they break the down.

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post #5 of 25 (permalink) Old 02-06-2017, 11:51 AM
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First off, Dobs4ever's suggestion of taking a walk together first is great. With dogs that may be unsure of other dogs we start by walking across the street from each other in the same direction ("parallel walking"). You slowly move closer together until you are walking side by side. Take a nice walk together. The key here is that you need to be certain of the other dog you are with. Are you SURE the other dog likes other dogs, particularly adolescent puppies? Adolescent Dobermans are particularly obnoxious, and a lot of dogs don't care for them You need a very tolerant playmate. I would recommend an opposite sex dog that has proven to be good with adolescent puppies. I also would agree with OFF LEASH greetings. So many dogs are leash aggressive because leashes are very unnatural. They don't allow dogs to greet one another in a way that is normal. If you aren't great at reading dog body language you can let them drag lines for a little while in case you need to separate them. When my dogs play I typically have them play in quick release collars so that I can separate them but so that I can get collars off in an emergency - a quick release buckle is the only kind that will come apart under pressure (for example, if a dog gets caught and the collar is tight). Ideally I don't want leashes or lines because they tangle, but if you must for a while, you can.

I wouldn't use an e-collar on a puppy, period. I'm not anti-e-collar, but I find it very inappropriate for his age.

For biting, the most effective method I've found is completely removing yourself every time he bites. That means as soon as his teeth are on you, give him an "oops!" and you immediately turn and leave the room completely. Shut the door, go behind the gate, whatever it takes to leave him all alone. Stay away for a minute or two. Not long, but enough for him to realize, gosh, all the fun ended and I am abandoned when I put my teeth on my family. That sucks. It's important to also use the "cue" (I like "oops" because I don't use it in casual conversation). Screaming/yelling/yelping...all of that often just amps up a Doberman pup, in my experience, especially the really bitey/drivey ones. So, just calm, oops, sorry...now you lost your humans. But it's CRITICAL to do it every.single.time. You MUST be consistent for him to learn. It has to happen every time, or he will think sometimes it's okay.


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post #6 of 25 (permalink) Old 02-06-2017, 01:58 PM Thread Starter
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First dogs are not deaf so yelling is a poor choice of control. By this time you should have a handle on the biting. Have your tried redirection? I have trained many Doberman puppies and while they are bitey I find that if you don't offer body parts to them then they learn to choose other things. So I would keep a stuffed toy or tuggy close by and when they come in to bite present the tuggy toy. If he actually gets close enough to bite then take his collar and calmly make him sit and hold his collar til he settles down. Of course, if he now runs from you because you yell then you have another challenge. Dogs should always feel the safest place is next to you. So start with him on leash and take hold of his collar and reward him. Tug lightly on the collar and reward him. Teach him reaching for him brings a treat. Yelling is escalation to them not calming them down and also teaches the to fear you. A true leader does not have to yell.



It is not to late to socialize. DO NOT DO THIS UNLESS YOU ARE comfortable with it.....You must be confident and not give off negative vibes......I already know many will freak at this advise. I have held group dog events and I always tell folks just come in and take the leashes off and step away. Unless a dog is dog aggressive they will not start a fight but be too busy trying to figure out what to do and then suddenly the run is on and off they go. It is a beautiful site to see.



I would recommend meeting and going for a long walk together first then come back to the fenced yard and just turn them both loose and walk away as you just drop the two leashes in case you need to stop them from playing too rough. You did not say if the Rottie had been socialized or not. A leash often creates more problems than you would believe when trying to introduce two dogs. Holding dogs back that want to meet creates more excitement and frustration as they try to get to each other. The Rottie may be trying to be protective of his owner so by turning them loose they have nothing to protect. ( flame suit on)



I personally do not socialize my dogs with other dogs because I do not want them bonding with other dogs. I want to be their end all end all. I do take them to training and they see and are around other dogs but they are learning to work so they pay no attention to other dogs. I am good with it as long as they do not show any signs of attention to another dog. If you do obedience and go for a long down I don't want my dog to think AHHHH its play time so they break the down.


This is all great advice thank you so much. I think part of the problem is that my wife and I correct differently. I have to admit that I have sometimes let him mouth me because I've heard so much about bite inhibition. Using words like 'easy' while correcting so he'll ease up on the strength of his bites. Should we just not let him bite at all? I've read horrible stories about dobes not ever allowed to bite and having not ever learned their bite inhibition. There's so many different opinions it's hard to decipher what is right and what is wrong.


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post #7 of 25 (permalink) Old 02-06-2017, 02:01 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by MeadowCat View Post
First off, Dobs4ever's suggestion of taking a walk together first is great. With dogs that may be unsure of other dogs we start by walking across the street from each other in the same direction ("parallel walking"). You slowly move closer together until you are walking side by side. Take a nice walk together. The key here is that you need to be certain of the other dog you are with. Are you SURE the other dog likes other dogs, particularly adolescent puppies? Adolescent Dobermans are particularly obnoxious, and a lot of dogs don't care for them You need a very tolerant playmate. I would recommend an opposite sex dog that has proven to be good with adolescent puppies. I also would agree with OFF LEASH greetings. So many dogs are leash aggressive because leashes are very unnatural. They don't allow dogs to greet one another in a way that is normal. If you aren't great at reading dog body language you can let them drag lines for a little while in case you need to separate them. When my dogs play I typically have them play in quick release collars so that I can separate them but so that I can get collars off in an emergency - a quick release buckle is the only kind that will come apart under pressure (for example, if a dog gets caught and the collar is tight). Ideally I don't want leashes or lines because they tangle, but if you must for a while, you can.



I wouldn't use an e-collar on a puppy, period. I'm not anti-e-collar, but I find it very inappropriate for his age.



For biting, the most effective method I've found is completely removing yourself every time he bites. That means as soon as his teeth are on you, give him an "oops!" and you immediately turn and leave the room completely. Shut the door, go behind the gate, whatever it takes to leave him all alone. Stay away for a minute or two. Not long, but enough for him to realize, gosh, all the fun ended and I am abandoned when I put my teeth on my family. That sucks. It's important to also use the "cue" (I like "oops" because I don't use it in casual conversation). Screaming/yelling/yelping...all of that often just amps up a Doberman pup, in my experience, especially the really bitey/drivey ones. So, just calm, oops, sorry...now you lost your humans. But it's CRITICAL to do it every.single.time. You MUST be consistent for him to learn. It has to happen every time, or he will think sometimes it's okay.


Thank you for this. We will definitely try these suggestions. And stay consistent with the biting. I feel like kicking myself because the leaving the room would work, but we felt like we were going crazy. Every few minutes getting up going to another room. We will try again. At 62 lbs his play bites are not fun haha. Thank you very much.


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post #8 of 25 (permalink) Old 02-06-2017, 04:26 PM
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This is all great advice thank you so much. I think part of the problem is that my wife and I correct differently. I have to admit that I have sometimes let him mouth me because I've heard so much about bite inhibition. Using words like 'easy' while correcting so he'll ease up on the strength of his bites. Should we just not let him bite at all? I've read horrible stories about dobes not ever allowed to bite and having not ever learned their bite inhibition. There's so many different opinions it's hard to decipher what is right and what is wrong.


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That's because a lot of advise you read on the internet are from those who have graduated from some dog training school or psychology training and so they have great book learning, but have never actually trained a large breed dominant dog. Couldn't read a dog if their life depended on it. The problem is I always tell everyone the dogs DO NOT read the darn book. They are dogs and they do not respond like humans. A dog should not ever be allowed to put teeth on humans. They should have learned bite inhibition when with their littermates. That is why breeders should keep puppies together a minimum of 8 weeks and I prefer 9 for them to learn their lessons. DOGS do not bite humans - that is crossing the line. You use "easy" when he is playing with a smaller animal If you provide THINGS to bite then they learn that humans are not allowed. So use a tuggy toy, or stuffed animal that they can bite. Bones are also good but never humans. I don't know what horrible stories you have hears but I can tell you it is not by anyone who has actually trained, titled and worked a dominant breed dog.

Too add: I have trained in Schutzhund for many years and I can tell you we train a dog when he is allowed to bite but there are rules to the game and he must abide by the rules. I read dogs not books

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post #9 of 25 (permalink) Old 02-06-2017, 05:03 PM
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mraimondi87, do you have good breeder support? Have you found a good trainer in your area? I ask, not to discourage you from asking questions here, but because Dobs4ever is correct in that you will get a lot of different opinions online, lots of different ways of handling common puppy issues like you are having. While I DO have a difference of opinion with her on ways of training (which is perfectly fine...we can agree to disagree on things, and still get along just fine!), that's the thing...I think what is very valuable for dogs is to have very consistent, clear methods. It's especially hard for new owners when they are getting a lot of conflicting advice and they may try one thing, then another, then something else...without really sticking with something long enough for their puppy to really understand and learn what they are trying to teach. The reason I ask about a breeder or a trainer is that those two would be my first "go to" places for help. A good breeder typically has years of experience and can guide you (and trust me, that's part of what you have paid for in a well bred dog - the guidance and help of your breeder!). Don't hesitate to ask them about something! Second, I really, really can't emphasize enough how important I think it is to find a good trainer that you trust and start working with them now. My trainers are people I've now worked with for years, and I trust them with all kinds of things...they KNOW dogs. Not only that, they now know MY dogs. I've been training with the same training facility and same trainers for a long time, because I really value them. For me, training is life long, and it's not just because I do sports with my dogs. I don't just ask my agility trainers questions about agility - I've asked all kinds of questions, and they are very helpful. I think having a good relationship with a great trainer is so very valuable. If you haven't yet started a class with your pup - start looking for a place or a trainer you click with...someone that you feel comfortable with, that you "mesh" with philosophically. It will be of great value to you and your dog.
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post #10 of 25 (permalink) Old 02-06-2017, 05:10 PM
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I agree with all advice give -- and please, stop letting the puppy mouth you!!! It will only teach him that it is an alright thing and will be harder fro you to break the habit. We as humans have nice soft fleshy limbs that are perfect for those growing teeth, but don't let him even nibble on you. Give him toys to chew instead. You need to be consistent with this or you will havea dog that thinks its okay to bite on you.

When Zuko was like this as a puppy, we would firmly say "NO!" or "OUCH!" when he was biting a little too hard while playing. He would usually get the hint and cower, lower his head and avert his eyes and seem to grovel. He knew he did bad. If he didn't calm down, he was put in his crate for a 'time out', which he learned very quickly that he did not want to be in and separated from us.

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post #11 of 25 (permalink) Old 02-06-2017, 06:15 PM Thread Starter
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I agree with all advice give -- and please, stop letting the puppy mouth you!!! It will only teach him that it is an alright thing and will be harder fro you to break the habit. We as humans have nice soft fleshy limbs that are perfect for those growing teeth, but don't let him even nibble on you. Give him toys to chew instead. You need to be consistent with this or you will havea dog that thinks its okay to bite on you.



When Zuko was like this as a puppy, we would firmly say "NO!" or "OUCH!" when he was biting a little too hard while playing. He would usually get the hint and cower, lower his head and avert his eyes and seem to grovel. He knew he did bad. If he didn't calm down, he was put in his crate for a 'time out', which he learned very quickly that he did not want to be in and separated from us.


We will not allow it anymore. Thank you. He has tons of toys, our arms and hands are apparently more fun. The 'no' 'ouch' or 'yelp' only amps him up. So we have to calmly but sternly say 'no' and go from there. Thank you for the help.

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mraimondi87, do you have good breeder support? Have you found a good trainer in your area? I ask, not to discourage you from asking questions here, but because Dobs4ever is correct in that you will get a lot of different opinions online, lots of different ways of handling common puppy issues like you are having. While I DO have a difference of opinion with her on ways of training (which is perfectly fine...we can agree to disagree on things, and still get along just fine!), that's the thing...I think what is very valuable for dogs is to have very consistent, clear methods. It's especially hard for new owners when they are getting a lot of conflicting advice and they may try one thing, then another, then something else...without really sticking with something long enough for their puppy to really understand and learn what they are trying to teach. The reason I ask about a breeder or a trainer is that those two would be my first "go to" places for help. A good breeder typically has years of experience and can guide you (and trust me, that's part of what you have paid for in a well bred dog - the guidance and help of your breeder!). Don't hesitate to ask them about something! Second, I really, really can't emphasize enough how important I think it is to find a good trainer that you trust and start working with them now. My trainers are people I've now worked with for years, and I trust them with all kinds of things...they KNOW dogs. Not only that, they now know MY dogs. I've been training with the same training facility and same trainers for a long time, because I really value them. For me, training is life long, and it's not just because I do sports with my dogs. I don't just ask my agility trainers questions about agility - I've asked all kinds of questions, and they are very helpful. I think having a good relationship with a great trainer is so very valuable. If you haven't yet started a class with your pup - start looking for a place or a trainer you click with...someone that you feel comfortable with, that you "mesh" with philosophically. It will be of great value to you and your dog.


Thank you. I do and I will contact. I've had so much help here. He's very smart and we will stay consistent.

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Originally Posted by Dobs4ever View Post
That's because a lot of advise you read on the internet are from those who have graduated from some dog training school or psychology training and so they have great book learning, but have never actually trained a large breed dominant dog. Couldn't read a dog if their life depended on it. The problem is I always tell everyone the dogs DO NOT read the darn book. They are dogs and they do not respond like humans. A dog should not ever be allowed to put teeth on humans. They should have learned bite inhibition when with their littermates. That is why breeders should keep puppies together a minimum of 8 weeks and I prefer 9 for them to learn their lessons. DOGS do not bite humans - that is crossing the line. You use "easy" when he is playing with a smaller animal If you provide THINGS to bite then they learn that humans are not allowed. So use a tuggy toy, or stuffed animal that they can bite. Bones are also good but never humans. I don't know what horrible stories you have hears but I can tell you it is not by anyone who has actually trained, titled and worked a dominant breed dog.

Too add: I have trained in Schutzhund for many years and I can tell you we train a dog when he is allowed to bite but there are rules to the game and he must abide by the rules. I read dogs not books


Thank you. Sometimes he takes the toy and sometimes he continues to go for hands arms limbs. Then we leave and on the way to the spare bedroom, he's nipping at feet and legs. We have to push him off before going into the room. We will now stay consistent. As writing this, he's in his mood, and I've had to leave 3 times. He has thousands of chew toys so hopefully he will soon get the hint.


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post #12 of 25 (permalink) Old 02-06-2017, 08:05 PM
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Leaving is a cowards way - dogs do not respect those who leave. Alpha dogs do not back down, turn their back or retreat. That is how a dog sees it so they follow you and nip to further gain power and take the upper hand. They do not understand time out and that is why it take a lot longer to get a point across. Think of the 3 C - CALM, CONSISTENT, CONFIDENCE

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post #13 of 25 (permalink) Old 02-06-2017, 09:36 PM Thread Starter
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Leaving is a cowards way - dogs do not respect those who leave. Alpha dogs do not back down, turn their back or retreat. That is how a dog sees it so they follow you and nip to further gain power and take the upper hand. They do not understand time out and that is why it take a lot longer to get a point across. Think of the 3 C - CALM, CONSISTENT, CONFIDENCE


This is what I mean. There is so much conflicting information on this topic. Dobs4ever what would you suggest for our situation? Would stopping the behavior and putting him a sit, stay, consistently work?thanks.


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post #14 of 25 (permalink) Old 02-07-2017, 12:14 AM
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First I would try to redirect to a tuggy or toy. If the puppy persists then I would take the collar in both hands and put him in a sit and hold him there til he calms down then just release the collar and move away. Do not turn him loose to move away. If he comes after you repeat. It won't be long til he decides that is not fun and he will stop or redirect to the toy. If he really persists and actually makes contact then I would squeeze the muzzle and say NO biting firmly but calmly then put him in the sit til he calms down. It won't take but one or two times of this and he will decide that there are better things to do.

I know there are a lot of folks who use the walk away method but it does not stop the problem. For dogs, they see in pictures, so if the picture looks the same then they respond accordingly. If they see you retreat then they win. Little dogs might respond to this I don't know because I don't train or work with small dogs much. Usually the dogs in my classes are larger. But I have seen so many out of control little dogs I suspect that there would be better ways to handle it. Same with saying OUCH. The alpha never whines or cry out. They remain strong and confident in their ability to handle the situation and so must you. Your wife needs to get on the same page or she will have issues later. Dobermans are very willing to follow a leader that they trust and respect. They do not respect or follow weakness. So everyone needs to step up to the plate. Obedience does not mean punishment in a heavy handed way. It just means correct guidance that the dog clearly understands.
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post #15 of 25 (permalink) Old 02-07-2017, 11:26 AM Thread Starter
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First I would try to redirect to a tuggy or toy. If the puppy persists then I would take the collar in both hands and put him in a sit and hold him there til he calms down then just release the collar and move away. Do not turn him loose to move away. If he comes after you repeat. It won't be long til he decides that is not fun and he will stop or redirect to the toy. If he really persists and actually makes contact then I would squeeze the muzzle and say NO biting firmly but calmly then put him in the sit til he calms down. It won't take but one or two times of this and he will decide that there are better things to do.



I know there are a lot of folks who use the walk away method but it does not stop the problem. For dogs, they see in pictures, so if the picture looks the same then they respond accordingly. If they see you retreat then they win. Little dogs might respond to this I don't know because I don't train or work with small dogs much. Usually the dogs in my classes are larger. But I have seen so many out of control little dogs I suspect that there would be better ways to handle it. Same with saying OUCH. The alpha never whines or cry out. They remain strong and confident in their ability to handle the situation and so must you. Your wife needs to get on the same page or she will have issues later. Dobermans are very willing to follow a leader that they trust and respect. They do not respect or follow weakness. So everyone needs to step up to the plate. Obedience does not mean punishment in a heavy handed way. It just means correct guidance that the dog clearly understands.


Thank you very much for the detailed post. This will be our next project. It's amazing how stubborn these dogs can be. Hahah


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post #16 of 25 (permalink) Old 02-07-2017, 05:58 PM
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They are not stubborn - they are determined and persistent. There is a big difference. If you present the correction correctly the problem should be fixed very quickly - anything that takes months to correct is obviously not working. Make him sit and stay holding his collar til he calms down. DO NOT talk TO HIM. Just NO biting and then hold in a sit position til he calms down. If he throws a fit so be it just hold on and be quiet. One of you will win. I am not going to be the looser!!!!
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post #17 of 25 (permalink) Old 02-07-2017, 06:58 PM
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Quote:
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This is what I mean. There is so much conflicting information on this topic. Dobs4ever what would you suggest for our situation? Would stopping the behavior and putting him a sit, stay, consistently work?thanks.


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This is where you need to decide what is best for you and your pup. Yes, there are a lot of methods and techniques out there, and you are going to get pulled left and right. If you are undecided, do your own research, look up each method and say to yourself 'would this make myself AND my puppy happy?'

I personally take on a more scientific approach to dog behavior and training. I go with the facts, research, and studies. So when it comes to alpha and dominance I look the other way. I'm very much into reward based methods, and training techniques that have the dogs emotions and thresholds in mind.

Here is a great documentary you can watch that may help you further your research:
Part 1
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DjEVYsh-Gv8

Part 2
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=umH8qPXaRL8
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post #18 of 25 (permalink) Old 02-08-2017, 08:54 AM
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Yes, again, you get lots of opinions online, which is why I recommend an in person trainer. I don't subscribe to dominance/alpha theory. I used walking away methods. I have two dogs that don't bite me (and they respect me just fine). I have titled dogs in sports My dogs and I have a great partnership. I don't want to get into a debate on training methods. I'm certain Dobs4ever has the same. I, for one, am tired of the "training wars" and I'm not going to argue that other methods don't work or that other people are hurting their dogs or don't have good relationships with their dogs. I don't think there's any one "right" way to do things, but I do think you need to be very consistent and decide - what am I comfortable with? What is going to be best for me and my dog? There are many reasons I train the way I train, and why I will or won't do certain things, and that's evolved over quite a few years of training, and several dogs worth of successes and mistakes. This is a big reason I think having someone in person that you can work with is critical, and, I also think you need to trust your gut.
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post #19 of 25 (permalink) Old 02-08-2017, 06:24 PM
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Did he go to puppy classes early (a good one where they don't let all dogs off leash at the same time)?

I'd suggest going to a reputable group training class (a small one, could even be a manners class) where you have a trainer that's able to provide you with assistance in and out of the class should you need it and will also help you and Jack by being in a controlled environment for socialisation. Prior to that, you can call in a private trainer if you're concerned about your boy's behaviour around other dogs if you wish.

Agree with MeadowCat completely. I'm personally not one to believe in the alpha/dominance theories, except that every dog responds differently to different types of training. What I will say is that you have a very mouthy breed, some dobes more than others -- my boy is 18 months and will sometimes mouth out of frustration (and raging hormones, those boys!) when -I- decide I'm done playing, and we are working on that constantly through our training. He can play rough and loves it, which is why he constantly invites my dad to play by mouthing him (my dad's fault for promoting it and now I have to deal with fixing it apparently).

Redirect as much as you can. Provide him things that allow him to chew appropriately on (chicken frames, wings, frozen fruits, kongs, etc.) because his teeth are still settling in. Remove yourself from him when he bites you and even close the door behind you for a short moment until he settles. Please do not grab his muzzle and growl when he mouths to 'assert your dominance', as you may end up with a dog that hates having his muzzle touched, which is pain when brushing teeth.
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post #20 of 25 (permalink) Old 02-09-2017, 10:37 AM
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Great suggestions on this thread. Puppy school is great, but a cheaper alternative is to find a different-sex dog and take them for a walk together. The mouthing issue, in my experience, is mostly about consistency. You cant make exceptions for anything, if she bites at you stop playing with her and walk away.
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post #21 of 25 (permalink) Old 02-13-2017, 08:54 AM
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I used to not buy into the dominance/alpha theory either - but first you have to break them down - For me Alpha simply means the one who gives the orders and someone certainly has to be in charge especially with a dominant breed. I do not believe in putting a dog on his back which is a big deal with those who see the dominance/alpha theory like in the wild. Dominance for me means training by trying to dominate the dog and intimidate and that is not what training should be about. So I think we think much closer to the same just so many misconceptions out there and different meaning for some of the terminology. So we are probably much closer in our thinking than what can be easily expressed especially when it is like typing a book. I will stand by the leader does not retreat. The people who suddenly get into trouble at about 18 months bought in to the Dr. Spock like approach. Yes it can and will work for some dogs but if you have problems at 18 months when the dog begins to come into his own it is usually caused by the those who did not stop unwanted behavior by making it very clear to the dog what was off bounds. I believe in addressing it straight on and solve it. No biting for me that must be obeyed - no biting humans except in training programs such as Schutzhund, mondio ring, French ring, PSA etc, Not allowing puppies to bite me has never caused a problem in Schutzhund training.

OMG I have not heard the growling thing in years - That would really seem strange to a dog and would be hard t keep a straight face. That is why I said no talking - Just a simple NO biting and then follow through until the dog calms down. Hope that made it clearer.
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post #22 of 25 (permalink) Old 02-13-2017, 09:15 AM
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I used to not buy into the dominance/alpha theory either - but first you have to break them down - For me Alpha simply means the one who gives the orders and someone certainly has to be in charge especially with a dominant breed. I do not believe in putting a dog on his back which is a big deal with those who see the dominance/alpha theory like in the wild. Dominance for me means training by trying to dominate the dog and intimidate and that is not what training should be about. So I think we think much closer to the same just so many misconceptions out there and different meaning for some of the terminology. So we are probably much closer in our thinking than what can be easily expressed especially when it is like typing a book. I will stand by the leader does not retreat. The people who suddenly get into trouble at about 18 months bought in to the Dr. Spock like approach. Yes it can and will work for some dogs but if you have problems at 18 months when the dog begins to come into his own it is usually caused by the those who did not stop unwanted behavior by making it very clear to the dog what was off bounds. I believe in addressing it straight on and solve it. No biting for me that must be obeyed - no biting humans except in training programs such as Schutzhund, mondio ring, French ring, PSA etc, Not allowing puppies to bite me has never caused a problem in Schutzhund training.

OMG I have not heard the growling thing in years - That would really seem strange to a dog and would be hard t keep a straight face. That is why I said no talking - Just a simple NO biting and then follow through until the dog calms down. Hope that made it clearer.
Thanks for clarifying. That is much more reasonable than many, many people who use "alpha" methods. It's always much easier to talk about things in person to see where commonalities lie, but it definitely helps to "talk" things about more thoroughly.

I suspect you and I are not that far apart in training, either, even if we occasionally differ in method.
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post #23 of 25 (permalink) Old 02-13-2017, 04:17 PM Thread Starter
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Did he go to puppy classes early (a good one where they don't let all dogs off leash at the same time)?



I'd suggest going to a reputable group training class (a small one, could even be a manners class) where you have a trainer that's able to provide you with assistance in and out of the class should you need it and will also help you and Jack by being in a controlled environment for socialisation. Prior to that, you can call in a private trainer if you're concerned about your boy's behaviour around other dogs if you wish.



Agree with MeadowCat completely. I'm personally not one to believe in the alpha/dominance theories, except that every dog responds differently to different types of training. What I will say is that you have a very mouthy breed, some dobes more than others -- my boy is 18 months and will sometimes mouth out of frustration (and raging hormones, those boys!) when -I- decide I'm done playing, and we are working on that constantly through our training. He can play rough and loves it, which is why he constantly invites my dad to play by mouthing him (my dad's fault for promoting it and now I have to deal with fixing it apparently).



Redirect as much as you can. Provide him things that allow him to chew appropriately on (chicken frames, wings, frozen fruits, kongs, etc.) because his teeth are still settling in. Remove yourself from him when he bites you and even close the door behind you for a short moment until he settles. Please do not grab his muzzle and growl when he mouths to 'assert your dominance', as you may end up with a dog that hates having his muzzle touched, which is pain when brushing teeth.


Yes he was in class and did fine with other dogs. We contacted our trainer for further training and he is actually going back tomorrow. Thank you all for the advice.


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post #24 of 25 (permalink) Old 03-03-2017, 06:47 PM Thread Starter
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Update!! Jack is still reactive with dogs while walking on leash. He gets so interested in other dogs he won't even take treats. In turn I just keep moving further from the distraction until he can somewhat focus. We are getting a sitter at the end of March for a trip out of town and they have 1 female mixed breed. We are going to do a neutral meeting place (park with closed tennis court). This weekend. Any advice on how to take it slow. I bought a muzzle just in case. Any tips or advice would be so helpful. Thanks!


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post #25 of 25 (permalink) Old 03-03-2017, 07:59 PM
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Dogs that are reactive on leash are not necessarily reactive off leash. YOU need to make sure you are calm and steady, as dogs also read you and your reactions. If you aren't comfortable and are planning on using a muzzle, make sure it's a basket muzzle. And, make sure you've made it a positive thing for him long before he ever wears it in this situation, so he doesn't have a negative association with it.


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