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post #1 of 31 (permalink) Old 06-17-2019, 02:27 PM Thread Starter
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No, im not a "troll"

Wow, it must be nice to be able to close a conversation because you disagree with someone. All im saying is that dilute dobermans are NO LESS part of the official standard for their breed. Therefore i dont understand why so many feel ad though it would be necessary to eliminate them from existance by refusing to breed any combination of dogs that could reproduce one, or worse yet.... bad mouth and slander anyone who does. Yes there is a potential for certain health conditions to occur. But all breeds have different issues that they may be prone to and different life expectancies. Its at the buyers discretion as to what kind, color, and size of dog they want. Some shed less, some bark more, some have breathing issues, and some COULD POSSIBLY have skin conditions. What dog should we therfore not eliminate???
Let he who has the perfect immortal dog throw the first stone.
Or just close the thread & ban me because you cant logically support your views on the matter...
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post #2 of 31 (permalink) Old 06-17-2019, 02:45 PM
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Originally Posted by Jt17 View Post
Wow, it must be nice to be able to close a conversation because you disagree with someone. All im saying is that dilute dobermans are NO LESS part of the official standard for their breed. Therefore i dont understand why so many feel ad though it would be necessary to eliminate them from existance by refusing to breed any combination of dogs that could reproduce one, or worse yet.... bad mouth and slander anyone who does. Yes there is a potential for certain health conditions to occur. But all breeds have different issues that they may be prone to and different life expectancies. Its at the buyers discretion as to what kind, color, and size of dog they want. Some shed less, some bark more, some have breathing issues, and some COULD POSSIBLY have skin conditions. What dog should we therfore not eliminate???
Let he who has the perfect immortal dog throw the first stone.
Or just close the thread & ban me because you cant logically support your views on the matter...

I'm going to try one more time. Consider this an official warning from the moderators, and if you continue to be aggressive and argumentative we will follow forum rules and give you a time-out to re-read the rules (linked for you here, for a second time, to read: https://www.dobermantalk.com/general...st-5-2011.html).

The other forum thread was closed because it was NOT on-topic. The thread's topic was the breeder Altobello. None of your posts were about that topic. You continued to post off-topic posts, as did other people, so the thread was closed, per our forum guidelines.

Again, back to your (continued) posts about being "attacked" for your views...all I can say is, you came here full of anger to start with, when no one here had expressed one tiny opinion on your breeding. YOU started the discussion. YOU started being angry before we ever knew you. I have no knowledge of your dogs or your breeding, but given the way you present yourself, I'm not one little bit surprised that you're ruffling feathers.

Again, I'd welcome you to share anything about your dogs, if you'd like. You've given us nothing to judge except your own behavior, and it's certainly not speaking well of you. Best of luck.


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post #3 of 31 (permalink) Old 06-17-2019, 02:58 PM Thread Starter
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Its not that i was directly attacked, but the general concensus seems to be that anyone who would breed or support someone who bred a dilute is irresponsible. And the reasin my gripe ended up where it did is because my dogs are decendents of Dankan Dax Altobello who i find to be extraordi arily good breeding stock. There is alot of Altobello / Kimbertal cross in my bloodlines and im proud of it.
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post #4 of 31 (permalink) Old 06-17-2019, 03:18 PM
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Its not that i was directly attacked, but the general concensus seems to be that anyone who would breed or support someone who bred a dilute is irresponsible. And the reasin my gripe ended up where it did is because my dogs are decendents of Dankan Dax Altobello who i find to be extraordi arily good breeding stock. There is alot of Altobello / Kimbertal cross in my bloodlines and im proud of it.
Well, you've lost me right there. Kimbertal is a commercial breeder that produces upwards of 500 puppies a year (based on kennel inspection reports from a few years back), mainly by farming out bitches on litter back contracts. They do minimal, if any, health testing that I've seen, and breed their imported males to any and every bitch they own with no thought beyond producing puppies to sell.


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post #5 of 31 (permalink) Old 06-17-2019, 03:48 PM Thread Starter
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I cant say much on "other bitches" but there are lot of documented titles on BOTH SIDES of my dogs ancestry. And just because a dog wasnt tested doesnt mean they carry anything. All of my dogs have checked out healthy, maybe i got lucky. But none the less, i have healthy dogs with good temperaments, that show potential for confirmatiion and IPO (not tthe same dog) but but the third one could possibly title in both venues, we'll see...
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post #6 of 31 (permalink) Old 06-17-2019, 03:52 PM
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Quote:
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but the general concensus seems to be that anyone who would breed or support someone who bred a dilute is irresponsible.
Where did someone say that?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jt17 View Post
I cant say much on "other bitches" but there are lot of documented titles on BOTH SIDES of my dogs ancestry. And just because a dog wasnt tested doesnt mean they carry anything. All of my dogs have checked out healthy, maybe i got lucky. But none the less, i have healthy dogs with good temperaments, that show potential for confirmatiion and IPO (not tthe same dog) but but the third one could possibly title in both venues, we'll see...
Those titles should be on the dogs you are breeding, not just in the pedigree.

And it's conformation. If you really think your dogs have show potential it seems like you could at least spell that word correctly.
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post #7 of 31 (permalink) Old 06-17-2019, 04:04 PM
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There are lots of other threads about Altobello and Kimbertal kennels and bloodlines here. I think the issue of whether or not they are good breeders has been discussed thoroughly.

Maybe we can move on to other topics.

To other readers, if you want to learn more about the above kennels, you can search using our search engine or even google "Dobermantalk Kimbertal"or "Dobermantalk Altobello" to find lots of other threads.

Here is one about kimbertal, for example:
https://www.dobermantalk.com/breedin...l-kennels.html
Post #8 on this thread gives lots of links to other discussions here.


OP, I'm sorry you've apparently been on the receiving end of some nasty comments about dilute dobes. Basically, a lot of them have skin troubles, which is a reason some breeders steer clear of them. Judges in shows can be picky too; some feel that we shouldn't be awarding dogs for merit that may have an inborn tendency to develop those problems. Their coats tend to get worse with age, so a dog can look good coat-wise when he is being shown and then end up with very little hair as they mature.

Buyers of dilute dobes do need to be informed about the proper care of their dog's skin to keep it in as good a shape as possible. Unfortunately, BYBs sometimes put a premium price on their dilute dobes and claim that they are "rare". That's not fair to the buyer, and may not be fair to the dog, who might end up with substandard care because their new owner just didn't know.

The "insides", so to speak, of blues and fawns, are every bit as good as any other dobe (excluding whites, which can have massive temperament problems). Their coat is just not as good...and newcomers to the breed sometimes buy a dog only by appearance. They gravitate toward a blue or fawn (they're gorgeous to me too); if the breeder is unscrupulous, the dog is misrepresented as being rare (they are less common, simply because dilute is a recessive trait) and charges more, and then the buyer finds that that lovely blue doggy doesn't have such a thick and shiny coat as they get older.


However, not all dilutes have problems. Some, like dobebug's Toad, a fawn, is a lovely dog with a good coat; he's a champion with wonderful longevity. And I think the blues in particular are beautiful. We are all proud of our dogs...we love them and want them to do well.

How about moving on, though, maybe even starting another thread on the newcomers forum, OP, with a little bio about you and your dogs and PICTURES!! We all love puppy pictures here.

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post #8 of 31 (permalink) Old 06-17-2019, 04:15 PM
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Its not that i was directly attacked, but the general concensus seems to be that anyone who would breed or support someone who bred a dilute is irresponsible. And the reasin my gripe ended up where it did is because my dogs are decendents of Dankan Dax Altobello who i find to be extraordi arily good breeding stock. There is alot of Altobello / Kimbertal cross in my bloodlines and im proud of it.

Again, that's certainly not the "general consensus" on this forum, so there was no need to come here guns blazing. Perhaps you should take up your beef with whomever was criticizing you in the first place?

If you wanted to post about your dogs' connection to Altobello you simply should have mentioned it in your original post. There was no hint of why you were posting in that thread to begin with - you came on ranting about people with zero explanation about why you were even on our forum, why you were angry, or why you were posting your rant in a seven year old thread, and then you get your hackles up when people are confused and offended. That's on you.

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I cant say much on "other bitches" but there are lot of documented titles on BOTH SIDES of my dogs ancestry. And just because a dog wasnt tested doesnt mean they carry anything. All of my dogs have checked out healthy, maybe i got lucky. But none the less, i have healthy dogs with good temperaments, that show potential for confirmatiion and IPO (not tthe same dog) but but the third one could possibly title in both venues, we'll see...
Ah, the often said "my dog has potential!" Great...go prove it. Get in the conformation ring, and earn a championship. Or, go out and put some titles in bitesports (the name has been changed from IPO to IGP, by the way). Tons of people think their dogs can do things, but lots of people are very mistaken. You might be right, or you might be wrong. Educated buyers look for proof, not talk.


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post #9 of 31 (permalink) Old 06-17-2019, 04:36 PM Thread Starter
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Im waitnig for them to recieve their final shots before we start showing. But hpw could i get any better if a gaurantee than what the parents accomplished. And how the appear and carry themselves?
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post #10 of 31 (permalink) Old 06-17-2019, 04:47 PM
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We all have different opinions and that's what I love the most about this forum......
Dilutes.....yep its a cosmetic condition.
Would I intentionally buy one ......no.
Would I intentionally breed to produce one- No.
So MAYBE ( I am guessing here) breeders think in the same way ..they do not want to breed... as dilutes are not in high demand or end up in rescues.
Breeders probably know its a cosmetic condition.....(shoot they know everything else about what they breed) ......but possibly avoid intentional breeding of dilutes as the puppies may not sell quickly once their customers are warned of the potential hair thinning or overall loss.
You see I am just an everyday dog person.......no shows.......no competitions..............just love dogs.
My preference is dobermans ....black and rust ...with alot of hair.
But thats me........if my dog gets this condition ...I will still love and take care of him till the end.
If someone intentionally wants a dilute .....thats OK to........if that brings joy into someones life that's great for the dog as well as the owner.
Thanks for the PIC's of your crew looking forward to seeing how they progress as they grow.
Hoss is a European Doberman and starts a scent class in September .........we are excited to do something new.

Hoss

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post #11 of 31 (permalink) Old 06-17-2019, 04:54 PM
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Quote:
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I cant say much on "other bitches" but there are lot of documented titles on BOTH SIDES of my dogs ancestry. And just because a dog wasnt tested doesnt mean they carry anything. All of my dogs have checked out healthy, maybe i got lucky. But none the less, i have healthy dogs with good temperaments, that show potential for confirmatiion and IPO (not tthe same dog) but but the third one could possibly title in both venues, we'll see...
The sire of Dax, Come as you are Agor. has had a full sibling die from DCM, Come as you are Bonner (at the age of 5). Also Dax nephews, Come as your are Dogzilla (at the age of 5) and Come as you are Grinch (at the age of 3) both died from DCM. Another half brother from his mother's side, Frazier dei Dohse died of DCM at 9. His great grand dam (Borana) died before the age of 3 supposedly from bloat. If this is the pedigree of what you consider to be an amazing dog.... Just because they have titles...


You have babies. I'm sure all of the about dogs were healthy too, until they dropped dead. That's how DCM works. Healthy until they're not.
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post #12 of 31 (permalink) Old 06-17-2019, 05:28 PM
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Im waitnig for them to recieve their final shots before we start showing. But hpw could i get any better if a gaurantee than what the parents accomplished. And how the appear and carry themselves?
None of your photos show the structure of your puppies. There's absolutely no way to judge if they are anywhere close to the Doberman standard.

I don't think you actually understand anything about responsible breeding. I really hope you want to learn, and will take the time to do that.

https://dpca.org/BreedEd/buying-a-doberman-pinscher/

https://talkdoglogic.wordpress.com/2...hampion-lines/

Breeder versus Producer: Why does it matter and how to tell the difference | Anamacara Irish Setters

https://docs.google.com/document/u/1...-8/mobilebasic


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post #13 of 31 (permalink) Old 06-17-2019, 06:26 PM
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You have come on here angry at stuff that was written many years ago, by mostly people who are not even still active on this forum (except for a few of us). I'm willing to try and give you a chance to live and learn, but won't do so if you continue to act like a 7 year old (human years, not dog years haha). So grow up and sit down - be prepared to learn without argument. The people on this forum vary in experience, interests, ages, etc..... but for the most part are happy to give of their time and knowledge.

Your dogs are puppies - you have no idea what their health OR coat condition will be at maturity (2+ years minimum), and beyond. It helps to know what their sire/dam/grandsires and grandams health testing is.... as well at lateral relatives, but it is not indicative of what their offsprings health will necessarily be.

No one here dislikes dilute dogs - they are dobermans after all. I however have seen totally bald dilutes come into rescue when I was a volunteer, and the only way of determining their actual color was by looking at their nose leather. Most dilutes will suffer some extent of hair loss with brittle hair coat after the age of 2. This hair loss most often just makes them look a bit moth eaten and has no effect on their health otherwise. Regardless, some people love the dilute colors, and that is fine. Not every reputable breeder avoids producing them - but they don't look to produce them either. If the best stud for their bitch carries dilution along with their bitch, some breeders will go with it. I personally will not produce dilution as I'm not a big time breeder and I don't want to have difficulty placing puppies... or risk getting them back years later simply because someone does not want a semi hairless dog. I don't have a problem producing dogs that carry dilution - my boy Harvard is a Black #4.

As far as what your puppies look like, they are cute as far as that goes. There is no way to evaluate their structure from those pictures. I wish you much luck raising them together without major issues. As a breeder, I would never sell a puppy to someone with another puppy. It is best to put at least a couple of years between dogs - you can see the age range in my personal dogs. I have never raised two puppies together past about 14 weeks of age.... and that only because the new owner could not take them earlier.... or I was hanging onto one to see if a good show home could be found. I breed seldom and right now it has been 7 years since my last litter..... and probably 2 more years before my next.

I hope you stick around to learn and enjoy being part of a doberman community...... losing the attitude you came roaring in on would help tremendously .

Mary Jo Ansel
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Last edited by Fitzmar Dobermans; 06-17-2019 at 06:28 PM.
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post #14 of 31 (permalink) Old 06-17-2019, 07:27 PM
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I’m not going to comment on the dilute situation, the breeding issues, the littermate situation because it’s been discussed. However, I am going to talk about the ecollars on your pups, they look to be about 12-16 weeks old in the pictures and the use of ecollars on pups of this age is inappropriate. Ecollars should not be used on dogs less than 6 months of age and even then it’s early IMO. An ecollars is a great tool when used properly, I.e. your dog already knows commands and is used as a gentle reminder to do so when asked, it should not be used as punishment for misbehaving.
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post #15 of 31 (permalink) Old 06-17-2019, 08:08 PM
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I tried to stay out of this, as I don't have nearly as much knowledge as, pretty much, everyone else on this site. I will say, be careful with the ecollars. You can ruin a dog.
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post #16 of 31 (permalink) Old 06-17-2019, 08:32 PM
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In my 8 years in the agility ring (and 13 states) I never saw a Kimbertal dog competing. In the 10+ years I worked as a tech in the southeast PA area I did see plenty of Kimbertal dogs coming into the clinic but not one that was ever in the breed ring or even quality enough to compete in that venue. Kimbertal is notorious for being a puppy mill...nothing more than a puppy mill. They snow their uneducated clients with titles on the imported dogs that the clients have nary a clue as to what those titles mean and what it takes to earn them. The fact is that Kimbertal caters to a certain segment of the dog world. They are the puppy buyers who don't do their homework and believe the hype and BS that is Kimbertal. My post is not an attack on you. It is merely facts from someone who was involved with Dobermans in one way or another since the 70s.
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post #17 of 31 (permalink) Old 06-17-2019, 09:12 PM
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I don't think they're training ecollars, I think it's an electric fence, none the better... but just an observation.
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post #18 of 31 (permalink) Old 06-17-2019, 10:11 PM Thread Starter
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It is a fence, its turned all the way down, and because i took time and had patince training them on their (clearly marked bounderies) they only recieved one light correction each before totally understanding. And they absolutely love the freedom they have now.
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post #19 of 31 (permalink) Old 06-17-2019, 10:43 PM
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A couple of things to keep in mind with a fence of this type.....

Some dogs (not just Dobermans) will go through the fence. The discomfort won't keep them from getting out. It could keep them from getting back in.

The fence will not keep other dogs or animals out.

There is no perfect solution for a fence. I think everyone here has had experiences with all kinds of fencing and have the tales to tell.
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post #20 of 31 (permalink) Old 06-17-2019, 11:13 PM
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With respect to what VZ just posted. After my sister's experience with an "invisible" fence, I don't feel that I could trust it with a Dobe.

My sister backs up on acres of state forest land, filled with wildlife. Lots of temptations to a dog with a naturally high prey drive.

A while back, she had a Golden, APBT and a Weimaraner. All were well trained, but the pit was a digger and the Weim was a serious jumper, so she decided to invest in a wireless invisible fence. Once trained, the pit and Golden respected the fence. The Weimaraner? He would simply muster his courage and strength and run full tilt at the fence line. He would run right through it. Thie was especially true if a deer wandered in and then bolted when it saw the dog. Once he figured that the brief episode of discomfort was worth it. The fence was worthless on him.

The big problem is that once out, he was reticent to cross the fence line to return. Ultimately the problem was solved.... This dog was never allowed out back unless under direct supervision. BTW. This was a very well behaved dog in general. He was field trained and used quite successfully for hunting.

She did use an e-collar on him when walking in the wood off leash where she knew he would sometimes get out of sight. This was simply for recall.

He has since passed. So, it is no longer an issue with her.

John
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post #21 of 31 (permalink) Old 06-18-2019, 09:29 AM
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Jt17- Welcome to Doberman Talk! Seems like you have incited a full barrage of lively discussion!

You have received lots of well informed advice based on personal long-term experiences.

I am a relatively new Doberman owner (9 years) and have nothing to add to what's been said.
Just please just remember that being a forum, you'll get all sides and manners of responses, some which might be terse.






(Sorry, couldn't resist, had to contribute something to this thread....)
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Ten Doberman Rules
Poke Everything.
It's New? Bark At It.
Moves? Chase It.
Doesn't Move? Smell It.
Liquid? Spill and Dribble It.
Treat or Food? Wolf It Down.
Not Food? Chew It Slowly, Be Quiet & Hide From Human.
A Toy? Shred & Destroy It.
Stuffed? De-Stuff It.
Bites You Back? Wrestle It!
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post #22 of 31 (permalink) Old 06-18-2019, 09:40 AM
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I used invisible fence for years with zero issues. However, IMO your boundary line is way too close to the sidewalk a foot or two doesn't leave a lot of room for people and/or dogs to walk by.
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post #23 of 31 (permalink) Old 06-18-2019, 05:05 PM
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Earlier today I sent (or at least I tried to send) a post which was primarily about dilute in the Doberman and why many breeders don't want to produce any dilute puppies as well as some commentary about skin problems vs just plain old CDA problems with dilute dogs.

I'm dial up--so I often have slow responces but today I got the spinning circle of death and ultimately the system (I was blaming my ISP or my computer--because these things happen with dial up systems) HOWEVER--I'm sitting at the library and the guy behind me has a screen up that responds to nothing. I got a long, long delay on an e-mail I was sending. And my system is supposed to save a draft of anything I'm sending out (and in fact I got the message that it had save a draft copy--but it wouldn't send the dratted thing and finally everything to do with that outgoing e-mail vanished.

The library helpers who have been scurrying around trying to make things work say they think there is something awry with the internet itself at the moment.

BAH HUMBUG!!!

Tomorrow is another day she said peacefully and I'll try again then...dobebug
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post #24 of 31 (permalink) Old 06-18-2019, 05:54 PM
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Personally, I find slamming a closed fist on the keyboard and then some violent shaking of the entire laptop with accompanying cursing seems to alleviate my frustrations......just not remedy the problem.
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post #25 of 31 (permalink) Old 06-18-2019, 08:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jt17 View Post
It is a fence, its turned all the way down, and because i took time and had patince training them on their (clearly marked bounderies) they only recieved one light correction each before totally understanding. And they absolutely love the freedom they have now.
I personally think there is no other secure fence than a fence. Even those fences aren't dog proof, I've know dogs that can scale 6 foot fences. And, like VZ said, certain fences don't keep other dogs/animals out.

Not trying to pick a fight or anything. Guess I am just lazy and don't want to have to go looking for my dog.
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