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post #51 of 6863 (permalink) Old 01-31-2009, 01:47 PM
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Dobermansrule-

Only one more point to make about this being a "Dem thang", even though it's on record that all Rep's voted against it......This is the thing....no matter what the damage done, it's always going to be W's fault in the end. Even after The Great One's term has come to a close (8 yrs), everything that has and that will possibly happen will still be blamed on Bush.

Oh well....guess I will just buckle up and hang on because this is going to be a wild ride.

Michael
I dont see it that way at all. I dont blame Bush for our economic problems. Moneywise, I have difficulty with the money wasted in Iraq, and thats about it for him. All my gripes with him are on an international level -but I wont rehash those cuz you know what they are.

Flat out agreeing, before hand, to vote against Obama's plan, is just childish. Come on. To not even look at it and determine to do something like that ahead of time?? Democrat or Republican, I dont care. Either way, this **** has gotta stop.
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post #52 of 6863 (permalink) Old 01-31-2009, 02:01 PM
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I'm not exactly sure of what you mean by 'the truth', for me its a matter of live and let live, living your life according to your own moral compass/belief systems and allowing others to do the same, within reason and herein lies the difficulty.
Many religious practices/customs are morally abhorrent to me, the subservient position of women, the maltreatment of homosexuals and minorities being some examples. Afghanistan, Iran and fundamentalist Islam spring to mind when one hears of such abuses however I think its important to remember that other religions have influenced, if not directly controlled, other societies. Almost every aspect of life in my own country including some of its polices/legislation was until relatively recently 'governed' by the Catholic Church, no divorce, media censorship, banning of contraceptives (I can still remember the news headlines when condoms were legalised), criminalisation of homosexuality being a few examples. There was a saying among Unionist's in Northern Ireland that 'Dublin Rule was Rome Rule' and to be honest they weren't far from the truth.
Hence I'm strongly for keeping a line firmly between religion and politics, to protect the 'minority form the tyranny of the majority'. However, having said that, I'm also strongly of the belief that religion is not above the law; acts deemed criminal should remain so even though many would consider them to be legitimate under their religion.
I agree with you that religious ethics are echoed in non religious ethical systems, and for me, that is where the line should be drawn.
Regarding the quote I used in my original post, using humankinds intellect to improve human existence, I'm of the opinion that it is ethic's which should govern these endeavours and legislation regarding them should be ethically and not religiously based, after all laws are there to govern us all regardless of what, if any, religious beliefs we hold.
I think the following quote taken from Obama's 'The audacity of hope' sums it up.
'If I am opposed to abortion for religious reasons and seek to pass a law banning the practice, I cannot simply point to the teachings of my church or invoke God's will and expect that argument to carry the day. If I want others to listen to me, then I have to explain why abortion violates some principle that is accessible to people of all faiths'.
Its great to hear this from the perspective of someone like you, having grown up in that context, watching it change.

I think it is really difficult though when so many of these religions feel it absolutely necessary to their OWN standing, to bend the will of all towards their ethic, believing it is prescribed in their religious texts. A lot of this is rooted in interpretational differences however and this just makes it that much more questionable.

Funny you mentioned Obama (and in this thread). I bought that book and loaned it to my mom the day I did. Still waiting to get it back lol. Just last semester I took a course on British Imperialism and I got a much deeper look at how things unfolded in Ireland. I think it is wonderful that the conflict has finally been given the time to heal and eventually fade away. Gotta say, IM very excited that George Mitchell was appointed to help with the Middle East conflicts.
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post #53 of 6863 (permalink) Old 01-31-2009, 02:57 PM
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post #54 of 6863 (permalink) Old 01-31-2009, 03:45 PM Thread Starter
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unfortunately crawling up to the trough of never ending all giving government money has become habit forming. Doesn't make it right. And it's not 'stimulus' - that's a misnomer, like a wolf in sheeps clothing. It's a government pork package - government as usual. It will stimulate nothing but the clamor for handouts, and debt.
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post #55 of 6863 (permalink) Old 01-31-2009, 03:49 PM
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unfortunately crawling up to the trough of never ending all giving government money has become habit forming. Doesn't make it right. And it's not 'stimulus' - that's a misnomer, like a wolf in sheeps clothing. It's a government pork package - government as usual. It will stimulate nothing but the clamor for handouts, and debt.
We shall see. And unlike the past, we will genuinely see. We will have access to how every dollar is spent and know exactly what is happening. Thats nice.
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post #56 of 6863 (permalink) Old 01-31-2009, 04:19 PM Thread Starter
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We shall see. And unlike the past, we will genuinely see. We will have access to how every dollar is spent and know exactly what is happening. Thats nice.
oh, really? How will 'we' have access to every dollar that is spent? transparency with government?

How do you know when a politician is lying? Their lips are moving.
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post #57 of 6863 (permalink) Old 01-31-2009, 05:30 PM
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We shall see. And unlike the past, we will genuinely see. We will have access to how every dollar is spent and know exactly what is happening. Thats nice.
Do ya really believe that????? Maybe, if we had a press that was not in bed with those pushing this package.
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post #58 of 6863 (permalink) Old 01-31-2009, 05:42 PM
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Do ya really believe that????? Maybe, if we had a press that was not in bed with those pushing this package.
Obama himself has promised to set up a website that will allow us to track everything going on, dollar for dollar, project to project.

He has already started these projects online and is faithful to them so far. Change.org is well underway and he is already forming committees to research the first ten ideas submitted. If you go to the white house website, you can keep up with things day by day and find out exactly what is going on.

I understand people being pessimistic but he is actually doing things and people aren't even aware of it - because they don't believe him so they aren't paying attention to or looking out for the fact it is actually happening.

I suggest people get involved instead of merely complaining. We have nothing to lose by at least TRYING to contribute to the process. Otherwise, peoples complaints and nay-saying is starting to ring very hollow.
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post #59 of 6863 (permalink) Old 02-01-2009, 10:01 AM
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Funny you mentioned Obama (and in this thread). I bought that book and loaned it to my mom the day I did. Still waiting to get it back lol. Just last semester I took a course on British Imperialism and I got a much deeper look at how things unfolded in Ireland. I think it is wonderful that the conflict has finally been given the time to heal and eventually fade away. Gotta say, IM very excited that George Mitchell was appointed to help with the Middle East conflicts.
Its certainly something I never thought I'd see happen in my lifetime. There is still a lot of tension between the communities in the North as the recent efforts of the UK governments 'Consultative Group on the Past' as shown but thankfully both sides are following a political route to resolve the 'troubles'.
George Mitchell certainly earned the respect of many for the work he has done and I hope his contribution in the Middle East will prove to be just as productive.
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post #60 of 6863 (permalink) Old 02-01-2009, 08:51 PM
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I wrote a big long answer to Avs rebuttal, but the website swallowed it...........aren't you glad??

In short--it's great that gov. is starting website to become more accountable (thanks for your info), but my concern was that the press isn't doing their job by reporting facts, not opinion. We need more than one source of information. The gov. is obviously a biased source; I would like to see more details from other sources.

But the basic problem here is that we just disagree what programs are good, and what methods of solving problems are good. There some programs I will never support, even if they work (perhaps especially if they work) because I feel they are taking us in the wrong direction.

That's the way it is!!!
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post #61 of 6863 (permalink) Old 02-02-2009, 01:06 PM Thread Starter
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Hey GOOD NEWS!!! Maybe I like this Bailout bill afterall.. thanks to some slick sleuthing, I have come to find a provision buried deep in the regulatory language of the Bill!!!!

It's this... a simple apology will let you off the hook for not paying taxes!!!! So gone are the days of paying your taxes dutifully out of fear of the IRS!

These guys know what we know now:
Daschle apologizes for failing to pay taxes - Yahoo! News
Geithner apologizes for not paying taxes - Yahoo! News
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post #62 of 6863 (permalink) Old 02-02-2009, 01:11 PM Thread Starter
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Obama himself has promised to set up a website that will allow us to track everything going on, dollar for dollar, project to project.

He has already started these projects online and is faithful to them so far. Change.org is well underway and he is already forming committees to research the first ten ideas submitted. If you go to the white house website, you can keep up with things day by day and find out exactly what is going on.

I understand people being pessimistic but he is actually doing things and people aren't even aware of it - because they don't believe him so they aren't paying attention to or looking out for the fact it is actually happening.

I suggest people get involved instead of merely complaining. We have nothing to lose by at least TRYING to contribute to the process. Otherwise, peoples complaints and nay-saying is starting to ring very hollow.
real patriotic contribution to the process should be to stop it at all costs!!! The fact that a pork-filled trillion dollar bill has sailed through the House and likely the Senate should be appalling. Especially how the bill was pushed through in limited hearings and secrecy by Madam Pelosi. For Americans to roll over and say gee let's be part of it rather than complain about it rings very hollow and something doesn't ring well about it to me. Complain I will. And I am writing and calling Senators and whoever else will listen.
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post #63 of 6863 (permalink) Old 02-02-2009, 01:13 PM Thread Starter
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I wrote a big long answer to Avs rebuttal, but the website swallowed it...........aren't you glad??

In short--it's great that gov. is starting website to become more accountable (thanks for your info), but my concern was that the press isn't doing their job by reporting facts, not opinion. We need more than one source of information. The gov. is obviously a biased source; I would like to see more details from other sources.

But the basic problem here is that we just disagree what programs are good, and what methods of solving problems are good. There some programs I will never support, even if they work (perhaps especially if they work) because I feel they are taking us in the wrong direction.

That's the way it is!!!
nobody can or is accounting for the first batch of bailout money that Bush did on his way out - the financial bailout stuff.

And its not an issue that the American people can check a website for where this governemnt funny money is going.. everyone should be asking WHY - why is the government throwing a trillion dollars that it doesn't have at a problem created by the government? and asking IS governemnt the solution? or the problem...
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post #64 of 6863 (permalink) Old 02-02-2009, 01:44 PM
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I couldnt have said it better DR.

Velmadobe- thats exactly the problem... so its ok if I were to clean out your savings account, spend it how I like, without asking you- so long as I told you where the money went? Thats really the issue. We dont want it to be spent to begin with.

This bill will be killed and I couldnt be happier about it. New cars for the government? 600k worth? Are you kidding me! The list goes on and on as to all this spending that has NOTHING to do with Stimulus and I said the same thing when there was a Republican president in the white house.
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post #65 of 6863 (permalink) Old 02-02-2009, 01:55 PM Thread Starter
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AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRRRRRRTGGGGGGGGGGG HHHHHHHHHH

WHO. THE. FRACK. CARES!

CNN Political Ticker: All politics, all the time - Blogs from CNN.com Who has Obama's e-mail address?
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post #66 of 6863 (permalink) Old 02-02-2009, 02:24 PM Thread Starter
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DAMN........... I highly suggest you all read the details of the Bailout Bill... amazing what's in there.. here's a good one..

...$100 million will be put in reserve with the option given to any democrat leader to increase the amount is subsequent years for the purpose of reconstructing any building or domicile in any country where President Obama mistakens a structure for a door. The funds will provide for swift response to change said structure to an operable doorway that will lead to somewhere so to spare the new historic president any embarrassment or humor at the expense of the desperate right wing media...
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post #67 of 6863 (permalink) Old 02-02-2009, 02:31 PM Thread Starter
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GAAAAA - they are all STUPID!!!! The government should not be controlling rates set by the market... stupid Republicans..


"...Senate Minority Leader Mitch McConnell, R-Ky., told reporters Monday that "a stimulus bill must fix the main problem first, and that's housing." He promised that Republicans would offer a plan to have the government step in to reduce mortgage rates to the 4 percent range, which could shore up home prices and lower housing payments for millions of Americans."


Obama stimulus plan faces changes in Senate - Yahoo! News
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post #68 of 6863 (permalink) Old 02-02-2009, 02:33 PM
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post #69 of 6863 (permalink) Old 02-02-2009, 04:10 PM
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When it comes to all of this economy stuff, I pretty much just sit and watch. I see the greatest minds in the world debating, butting heads and often saying the opposite of eachother. How the hell does someone like ME know what is right??

The only thing that I do KNOW is that people have to keep spending - especially the wealthy. Holding money tightly only makes things worse. What's more, is that we need to try to be conscious of buying American whenever possible. Unfortunately, we are no longer a manufacturing focused country and this is hurting us very badly.
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post #70 of 6863 (permalink) Old 02-02-2009, 04:18 PM Thread Starter
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When it comes to all of this economy stuff, I pretty much just sit and watch. I see the greatest minds in the world debating, butting heads and often saying the opposite of eachother. How the hell does someone like ME know what is right??

The only thing that I do KNOW is that people have to keep spending - especially the wealthy. Holding money tightly only makes things worse. What's more, is that we need to try to be conscious of buying American whenever possible. Unfortunately, we are no longer a manufacturing focused country and this is hurting us very badly.
to me it's very simple - do you/we want the federal government running everything? I don't. You might. AND we don't need people to spend - America has the world's lowest savings rate. It's time to save. A country's savings finance investments. Recall the days when America was a creditor nation. We were on much firmer financial footing under that scenario.

Good luck buying American. We now import from China and elsewhere - by design. They buy our national debt (Treasuries) by which our government funds its spending, in exchange we given them all our consumer business and we keep the consumer fires fueled through funny money policies at home - zero interest rates, etc etc etc.

Want a good predictor of where we are likely headed? Japan's lost decades is good reading. We are going down that path.
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post #71 of 6863 (permalink) Old 02-02-2009, 04:32 PM
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Not sure it's quite "fair" to tell the wealthy they must spend more........AND then tell them they have to pay MORE taxes too. The wealthy are a stalking horse here; the real culprit is our out-of-control, way-in-the-red government that doesn't seem to realize that even if it can just print money whenever it feels the need, eventually SOMEONE has to pay. Oops, I forgot-----that's the wealthy's job!!
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post #72 of 6863 (permalink) Old 02-02-2009, 04:35 PM
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That 4% is the dumbest idea i've heard... that is the answer... sigh...
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post #73 of 6863 (permalink) Old 02-02-2009, 07:53 PM Thread Starter
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Hey this is cool - the Obameter, tracking Obama's campaign promises.. they say he is already broken one.

PolitiFact | The Obameter: Tracking Barack Obama's Campaign Promises
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post #74 of 6863 (permalink) Old 02-03-2009, 12:51 AM
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An interesting idea from an editorial on--don't hit me--Foxnews.com:

If Obama and his party are so interested in transparency in their new governing system, why don't they break the new stimulus package up into separate bills and vote each bill up or down on its OWN individual merit.

Now THAT would be CHANGE I could go for!! Signed, The Eternal Cynic (just might have to change my on-line name!)
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post #75 of 6863 (permalink) Old 02-03-2009, 12:58 AM
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Sounds like a better idea. I think they are desperate to get the ball rolling however, thinking that there isnt time to lose on this. Idk. I think Hillary Clinton said what you said too Melbrod.
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