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post #6451 of 6919 (permalink) Old 04-27-2017, 08:11 AM
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So you want free speech for only one side of the aisle? That's a bit hypocritical. I agree that they should send in protection for whatever speakers there are at Berkley, right or left, but not allowing peaceful protestors completely negates the free speech you guys are raving about. Now once any of these protestors commits any act of violence, round them up and leave the ones that have done nothing wrong. Because I'm sure just as there are 'paid protestors'(I'm sure my check got lost somewhere for some of my marches), there are also people from the other side pretending to protest while causing a ruckus to give the protestors a bad name.

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post #6452 of 6919 (permalink) Old 04-27-2017, 09:31 AM
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Yes, definitely let folks protest if they don’t like a speaker--or they can simply stay home and let the turnout for an event be low. Then those who are speaking to make a quick buck may not accept an offer to speak. Vote with your feet.

But I don’t think it is fair to prevent people from going to an event by blocking entrances, impeding entrances by mobbing attendees in their cars, or destroying their property (trashing vehicles). Especially when people have paid for tickets or even made long trips just to attend a non-violent, though maybe controversial, event.

Free speech can espouse controversial ideas--but if violence is not actually incited in the crowd who support the speakers, it remains free speech. Even if some folks don’t like what is said.

A problem I see with your point is whether it is possible to tell if or when a protest will become violent. Seems like, especially with cell phones and the internet, it is easy for folks to set up a clandestine protest with the purpose of being violent without giving out any clue to that plan. Flash mobs (I’ve heard that political protests sort should be called “smart mobs” to distinguish them from sudden fun or artistic sort of gatherings. Like violence at protests is “smart” .) I know the “authorities" have gone so far as to set up zones away from the area where people can register their displeasure with an event--but that’s not really a satisfying solution for anyone.

Once violence starts, it can be hard to turn off.

And I still think that there are fewer protests that turn bad from the right side of the spectrum--perhaps the anger at being mistreated isn’t quite as strong. Or perhaps the right is less organized at sending in paid protestors to start trouble. Or...what?

Most problems I’ve seen from the right seem to be sort of mutual--someone says something, someone else responds back and fights start--someone gets hurt.

But that is a far cry from the kind of property destruction, theft of merchandise and violence against the innocent that goes on in riots. How many times have you seen a car burning in a “protest” against some action of Obama’s, for example?

Aside from riots after soccer games and sports events, that is.

It can’t be just a matter of haves and have-nots--many of the violent student protests happen at college campuses where mom and dad are spending inordinate amounts of money to sponsor the kid’s tuition and lifestyle. These are kids born with a silver spoon in their mouths, so to speak, who are “disturbing the peace.”

Free speech is what makes this country. Shut that down by the heckler’s veto and we have tyranny of the mob. Brown shirts. Totalitarianism. Left-wing fascism. Terrorism. Anarchy.
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post #6453 of 6919 (permalink) Old 04-27-2017, 10:29 AM
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I think you are also assuming that violence in protest is only a leftist issue. I've been to many marches over the last couple months and the main thing they tell you is NO VIOLENCE. If violence starts, you are encouraged to quickly separate from it and continue to protest while not being lumped together with the idiots that do start things.

That being said, I also think the left protests tend to be a bit more aggressive for a couple reasons: First off, they're bigger and more of a crowd means more idiots. They're younger which comes with physical strength, stamina, and immaturity.

I don't think Trump rallies were any better though. Sure, they were 'nicer' for those attending but even walking by a few without protesting them or anything, I was shouted out he's going to ship me back to my country(born here) or to speak English(was on the phone with my mother for that one, not bothering anyone). Quite confused as to how that is so much better. My brother and one of his Native American friends that were both confused with those of Middle-Eastern descent fared a worse and were told by two men open-carrying in a threatening manner that they will be dead by the end of the year while the men's friends snickered in the background. A policeman was there and did nothing because the men were allowed to have their guns and as long as they didn't assault them, they did nothing wrong.

I do wish protestors would not block people's way if it's not a dedicated march. As much as I hate the Westboro Baptist Church and what they stand for, I do believe they have the found the correct way to protest. They're unobtrusive, stay within their legal rights, and are strictly not physically violent. If protests from both sides did it this way, it would be a lot more effective. Because all violence does is discredit a march or protest. The strength comes in numbers and visibility, not disruptions.

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post #6454 of 6919 (permalink) Old 04-27-2017, 10:57 AM
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post #6455 of 6919 (permalink) Old 04-27-2017, 01:08 PM
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....but even walking by a few without protesting them or anything, I was shouted out he's going to ship me back to my country(born here) or to speak English(was on the phone with my mother for that one, not bothering anyone). Quite confused as to how that is so much better. My brother and one of his Native American friends that were both confused with those of Middle-Eastern descent fared a worse and were told by two men open-carrying in a threatening manner that they will be dead by the end of the year while the men's friends snickered in the background. A policeman was there and did nothing because the men were allowed to have their guns and as long as they didn't assault them, they did nothing wrong.

I do wish protestors would not block people's way if it's not a dedicated march. As much as I hate the Westboro Baptist Church and what they stand for, I do believe they have the found the correct way to protest. They're unobtrusive, stay within their legal rights, and are strictly not physically violent. If protests from both sides did it this way, it would be a lot more effective. Because all violence does is discredit a march or protest. The strength comes in numbers and visibility, not disruptions.
Red--No physical violence. Ugly, but free speech. Unfortunately.

I’ve been called nasty names while riding on a public bus--the only white person on the bus. Free speech, dammit.

Blue--to me, crosses the line. I suppose since the guys didn’t pull the guns, it isn’t an actual (legal) threat--but definitely scary. Seems like the police could have at least stood between your brother and friend, and the thugs. Or told them to move on.

But the police are afraid of getting called out on the carpet for doing something wrong too. And cameras everywhere.

Green--right on.

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post #6456 of 6919 (permalink) Old 04-27-2017, 06:49 PM
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U.N. Eliminating ACA May be Illegal!!!

This is one for Believe or Not!! The United Nations contacted the Trump Administration and told them it may be illegal to eliminate the Affordable Care Act??. The U.N. official went on to say "IT MAY VIOLATE INTERNATIONAL LAW." This is our country and our government making our own laws and these Globalist creeps are telling us Americans what laws to follow. This is just why Globalists like the United Nations, Barack H. Obama and Hillary Clinton need to go to Hell.

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The United Nations warned the Trump administration earlier this year that repealing ObamaCare without providing an adequate replacement would be a violation of multiple international laws, according to a new report.

Though the Trump administration is likely to ignore the U.N. warning, The Washington Post reported the Office of the U.N. High Commission on Human Rights in Geneva sent an "urgent appeal" on Feb 2.

The Post reported that the confidential, five-page memo cautioned that the repeal of the Affordable Care Act would put the U.S. “at odds with its international obligations.”

The warning was sent to the State Department and reportedly said the U.N. expressed “serious concern” about the prospective loss of health coverage for 30 million people, that in turn could violate “the right to social security of the people in the United States.”
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2017...ional-law.html

Freedom Caucus Backs New ‘Repeal and Replace' Healthcare Bill

House Speaker Paul Ryan Speaks To Media After House GOP Conference Meeting
The House Freedom caucus confirmed on Wednesday that it is fully behind the amended GOP healthcare bill to ‘repeal and replace’ Obamacare, weeks after the conservative group opposed the legislation and forced Republican leadership to pull the bill before a scheduled vote.

The Freedom Caucus, which includes approximately 30 members, was swayed by the inclusion of a key revision added by Rep. Tom MacArthur –called the MacArthur Amendment- that allows states to opt-out of coverage requirements mandated under the Affordable Care Act.

Under Obamacare, all healthcare plans in every state were forced to provide maternity leave, preventative care, prescription drug coverage, and other services. The new legislation allows insurance companies to create more diverse healthcare options which, they argue, will drive down prices.

The Freedom Caucus confirmed their support in a statement on Wednesday.

While the revised version still does not fully repeal Obamacare, we are prepared to support it to keep our promise to the American people to lower health care costs," the statement said. "We look forward to working with our Senate colleagues to improve the bill. Our work will continue until we fully repeal Obamacare."

h/t The Hill
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post #6457 of 6919 (permalink) Old 04-27-2017, 07:28 PM
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I wouldn’t mind at all if we got out of the United Nations and made them meet in another country. The theory behind the UN assumes that we countries all have the same interests and that if we can just talk about things, misunderstandings will go away and we’ll get along--but the majority of the countries in the UN are more or less dictatorships. Not the same goals at all.
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post #6458 of 6919 (permalink) Old 04-27-2017, 08:16 PM
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"I think you are also assuming that violence in protest is only a leftist issue. I've been to many marches over the last couple months and the main thing they tell you is NO VIOLENCE. If violence starts, you are encouraged to quickly separate from it and continue to protest while not being lumped together with the idiots that do start things.

That being said, I also think the left protests tend to be a bit more aggressive for a couple reasons: First off, they're bigger and more of a crowd means more idiots. They're younger which comes with physical strength, stamina, and immaturity"


I can only think of a Right issue that brought together people of like minded to the streets was the TEA party movement . I do not recall any blood being drawn or the destruction of private property or State controlled property.

The protesters that i see currently so far are only protesting others freedom of speech and the right to peacefully gather. I also do not hear any political leaders speaking out forcefully about the hypocrisy of the reason for the protest and the illegality of the protesters actions. To only separate from a part of your group who behaves in such a manner and not trying to stop them is just as guilty as those that throw punches , rocks and strike with poles and chains and spit a throw other bodily fluids on those they are against.
When i see the ones gravitate towards this violence i see people that are possessed by hate being coddled by the left and tools of the democratic party.
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post #6459 of 6919 (permalink) Old 04-28-2017, 02:06 PM
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It was before my time so I'm not totally certain of the scales, but women's day protest and the Trump protest and some of the other protests for the "left" that were in the hundreds of thousands or even millions nationwide were all pretty peaceful.

And the last time the "right" had protests that big was the civil rights movement which were definitely far less peaceful on both sides to be fair, but much moreso on the right.

Overall I'd say protesting today is actually pretty tame on both sides and any violence is on par with soccer hooligans who are just using the crowd to act out as cover and probably care more about getting away with it.
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post #6460 of 6919 (permalink) Old 04-28-2017, 06:48 PM
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Overall I'd say protesting today is actually pretty tame on both sides and any violence is on par with soccer hooligans who are just using the crowd to act out as cover and probably care more about getting away with it.

I have to disagree as most of these anti-Trump, anti-free speech demonstrators are nothing but left wing thugs. They want nothing but their little far left world.

Many years ago (in the Vietnam era; I am an old guy) I had a friend who was a lefty, in fact he founded a sort of local Students for Democratic Action at Virginia Commonwealth University. We totally disagreed on most everything, but we could actually have interesting discussions over a couple of beers and respect each other. This could not happen with today's PC students or with the street thugs; there is no discussion.


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post #6461 of 6919 (permalink) Old 04-28-2017, 07:34 PM
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And the last time the "right" had protests that big was the civil rights movement which were definitely far less peaceful on both sides to be fair, but much moreso on the right.
.
The resistance to the civil rights movements of the 50 and 60's was not a "right" issue. In fact most legislation that passed was done with Republican majorities. It was democrats that introduced the Southern Manifesto which was to resist any type of civil right legislation.
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post #6462 of 6919 (permalink) Old 04-28-2017, 09:13 PM
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I have to disagree as most of these anti-Trump, anti-free speech demonstrators are nothing but left wing thugs. They want nothing but their little far left world.

Many years ago (in the Vietnam era; I am an old guy) I had a friend who was a lefty, in fact he founded a sort of local Students for Democratic Action at Virginia Commonwealth University. We totally disagreed on most everything, but we could actually have interesting discussions over a couple of beers and respect each other. This could not happen with today's PC students or with the street thugs; there is no discussion.


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Check out the Heinken commercial I posted on the last page. The issue isn't so much right or left, it's that like you said, no one wants to debate or find common ground. Once they do stuff gets done for the greater good, which is not what very powerful people want to happen right now.

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The resistance to the civil rights movements of the 50 and 60's was not a "right" issue. In fact most legislation that passed was done with Republican majorities. It was democrats that introduced the Southern Manifesto which was to resist any type of civil right legislation.
Democrats and republicans have flipped sides several times on which is progressive / regressive /more freedom /less freedom etc. All the way back to the Whig party. I just use right and left to mean people with those same views today, where the left who was pro civil rights and had MLK preaching nonviolence (was he a republican?) was generally a more peaceful movement than the right who was anti civil rights and committed all the segregation related violence (were they democrats?)

Compared to that today's protests are similar in size and scope but the violence just isn't there.
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post #6463 of 6919 (permalink) Old 04-28-2017, 10:21 PM
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So you’re defining the left and right (democrats, republicans--whatever) not according to what party people say they are members of, but according to whether or not they are violent? If you are in favor of Civil Rights and non-violence, you are automatically left of center? Your party doesn’t matter because everyone knows that if you are non-violent, you must be a progressive. So if you say you are Republican, but believe in Civil Rights, you are not actually on the right, but are really a progressive and a leftist.

And if you are on the right, by definition, you must be against Civil Rights and for violence?

Huh?
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post #6464 of 6919 (permalink) Old 04-29-2017, 06:18 PM
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I'm saying that because the party labels don't change, but the party positions, policies, and actions change drastically for instance the Boston tea party was liberal republicans violently protesting, things get impossibly unclear and messy as you pointed out.

So I just chose left and right as they stand today, feel free to replace my comment with team A and team Z, just as long as it consistently refers to the two opposing ideologies we're primarily discussing.

If you are in favor of Civil Rights and non-violence, you are automatically left of center? Using "left" here is confusing, call it team Z.

Against Civil Rights and for violence? Call this team A.

And then divide the political spectrum accordingly. Women's March, millions of people 0 violence, definitely team Z.
Segregation protest with burnings etc definitely team A.

99% of protestors today team Z.
Berkeley extremists / Ferguson riots / pro trump brawls team A.
And the last time team A was big, it was in the 50's / 60's from what would today be considered republicans. Also President Trump himself has called for violence in his speeches (how seriously we don't know, just that Bernie / Hillary actively called for the opposite) so republicans have a party leader that supports A more than Z.
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post #6465 of 6919 (permalink) Old 04-29-2017, 07:59 PM
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It doesn’t sound like your breakdown of Team A and Team Z really has anything to do with political parties or belief systems; it sounds more like differentiating legitimate protests which stay peaceful, from protests/riots from people who are willing to break the law and engage in violence, for whatever reason.

Where it gets messy is when there are some folks from Team Z mixed into Team A....and Team A does very little to disavow them or even tacitly encourages them. When violent folks show up at a protest, the proper response should be for both “sides” to recognize that truly destructive behavior doesn’t belong at any protest and unite to get rid of that element.

But free, even offensive speech, is not automatically violent. And if anything, prohibiting that open expression of dissatisfaction will lead to violence when people feel unheard, left behind and angry.

Preventing people from speaking even when their viewpoint differs from that of your own exacerbates distrust and leads to the separation of a society into different factions. Prohibiting members of one group from expressing opinions, keeping them from speaking, and making the “authorities” cancel events for fear of violence is destructive to a society.

That is the trend which I am seeing...shutting down speech by violence is repressive, and forcing change via destruction and fear, is brownshirt behavior. Anarchy is used to bludgeon a group into silence--destruction of people, property and a coherent society is the result.

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post #6466 of 6919 (permalink) Old 04-29-2017, 09:26 PM
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The anti-free speech and anti-Trump protesters are nothing but street thugs. While the women's march may have been peaceful on the surface they were mainly supporting the pro-abortion cause, and that was support for violence (murder) against the most helpless of children, the unborn.
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post #6467 of 6919 (permalink) Old 04-30-2017, 10:03 AM
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According to some people here, I'd be considered a leftist thug simply because I voted democratic, am pro-choice, I participated in the women's march in DC (peaceful), think that healthcare for all is a human right, believe that gun rights should have some regulation, believe that women deserve equal rights, and believe that we are a nation of immigrants .... that it is what actually makes this nation so great.
In reality, I'm a mild mannered, middle aged, well educated, upper middle class chubby woman, mom, wife, sister.... was a daughter but my parents have both passed.
I USED to be what was considered middle of the road politically... which to me speaks volumes on how far right we as a nation have moved.

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post #6468 of 6919 (permalink) Old 04-30-2017, 11:35 AM
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While I think the country (MSM and college folks anyway) has gone left.

I suppose that means we’ve stayed the same--but the vocal left is still attempting to keep the “silent majority” (remember that term?) silent.

Take a look at this Dartmouth study:


Which group is most comfortable with diversity?

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post #6469 of 6919 (permalink) Old 04-30-2017, 11:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by melbrod View Post
While I think the country (MSM and college folks anyway) has gone left.

I suppose that means we’ve stayed the same--but the vocal left is still attempting to keep the “silent majority” (remember that term?) silent.

Take a look at this Dartmouth study:
That's because many Democrats are uncomfortable with people who want to limit the rights of people that are different than themselves

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post #6470 of 6919 (permalink) Old 04-30-2017, 11:42 AM
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We’re an uncomfortable people at the moment. *sigh*
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post #6471 of 6919 (permalink) Old 04-30-2017, 12:53 PM
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The Graph shows that more than 50% of dems want to live in a bubble, to them diversity is a slogan not to be practiced.
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post #6472 of 6919 (permalink) Old 04-30-2017, 01:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fitzmar Dobermans View Post
According to some people here, I'd be considered a leftist thug simply because I voted democratic, am pro-choice, I participated in the women's march in DC (peaceful), think that healthcare for all is a human right, believe that gun rights should have some regulation, believe that women deserve equal rights, and believe that we are a nation of immigrants .... that it is what actually makes this nation so great.
In reality, I'm a mild mannered, middle aged, well educated, upper middle class chubby woman, mom, wife, sister.... was a daughter but my parents have both passed.
I USED to be what was considered middle of the road politically... which to me speaks volumes on how far right we as a nation have moved.

Murder of unborn, or partly born babies is not health care. There are more than enough regulations on firearms.


Abortion is the taking of a human life.

_______Ronald Reagan, from the book: The wit & wisdom of Ronald Reagan
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post #6473 of 6919 (permalink) Old 04-30-2017, 01:11 PM
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Trump was in Harrisburg yesterday. Our Democratic mayor Papenfuse led a protest rally across the street from the venue. It was very peaceful so not all of us Democrats are thugs

Elaine


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post #6474 of 6919 (permalink) Old 04-30-2017, 05:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eegreen View Post
Trump was in Harrisburg yesterday. Our Democratic mayor Papenfuse led a protest rally across the street from the venue. It was very peaceful so not all of us Democrats are thugs

The exception proves the rule. Exactly what was the protest about? Are they against law and order? Are they against border control? Do they just hate President Trump? Do they hate more jobs being created? If they were asked probably 50% could not give a rational answer as to why they were protesting.
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post #6475 of 6919 (permalink) Old 04-30-2017, 07:40 PM
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Here you go from our local news;

Like Trump, Harrisburg mayor wants to build a wall
http://www.pennlive.com/news/2017/04..._wall_har.html

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