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post #501 of 6919 (permalink) Old 03-13-2009, 04:16 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by avalonandon View Post
I didnt say that DR. But based on the statistics you presented, it is clear that the portion of that 1% that are corrupt, are capable of FAR REACHING effects on others because of the amount of wealth being manipulated.

And what is to stop them from steadily lowering the bar? Well my guess is that it stops with the people who are uselessly paranoid about it.
not my statistics - in the article I posted and right out of the budget document. so it's Obama's statistics. And the danger is the assumption that to be in the top 1% that you are somehow corrupt. Just a dangerous precedent. And the average complacent "I'll never be in the top 1%" Americans just don't care because the mindset is that the top 1% screwed others to get there and deserve what they get. There will come a day though when the American people are wondering how they got into permanent servitude and where did all the opportunities go. Governmemt pay is low and flat.
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post #502 of 6919 (permalink) Old 03-13-2009, 10:51 PM
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Lowering the Bar.......seems to me that I read once that the Income Tax was pushed through with the promise that it would only be for the top few percentages of earners--but perhaps we're moving back to that ideal with close to 50% of people paying no income taxes at this time. When the number of people who pay no taxes and who benefit from government largess is greater than the number of those who are asked to shell out to support these people, it gets scary for me.
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post #503 of 6919 (permalink) Old 03-13-2009, 11:27 PM Thread Starter
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Lowering the Bar.......seems to me that I read once that the Income Tax was pushed through with the promise that it would only be for the top few percentages of earners--but perhaps we're moving back to that ideal with close to 50% of people paying no income taxes at this time. When the number of people who pay no taxes and who benefit from government largess is greater than the number of those who are asked to shell out to support these people, it gets scary for me.
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well yeah, plus it's by any rules of accountancy not sustainable. The Trillions being spent now - borrowed (er, created out of thin air). There's no way the top 1% could support the current spending.
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post #504 of 6919 (permalink) Old 03-15-2009, 02:28 PM
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More lies and manipulation by B. Hussein NoBama

"WASHINGTON (AP) -- The economy is fundamentally sound despite the temporary "mess" it's in, the White House said Sunday in the kind of upbeat assessment that Barack Obama had mocked as a presidential candidate.

Obama's Democratic allies pleaded for patience with an administration hitting the two-month mark this week, while Republicans said the White House's plans ignore small business and the immediate need to fix what ails the economy. After weeks projecting a dismal outlook on the economy, administration officials -- led by the president himself in recent days -- swung their rhetoric toward optimism in what became Wall Street's best stretch since November.

During the fall campaign, Obama relentlessly criticized his Republican opponent, Sen. John McCain, for declaring, "The fundamentals of our economy are strong." Obama's team painted the veteran senator as out of touch and failing to grasp the challenges facing the country.

But on Sunday, that optimistic message came from economic adviser Christina Romer. When asked during an appearance on NBC's "Meet the Press" if the fundamentals of the economy were sound, she replied: "Of course they are sound."

Just a week ago, White House Office of Management and Budget director Peter Orszag declared that "fundamentally, the economy is weak." Days later, Obama told reporters he was confident in the economy."


So...B. Hussein NoBama...now that you have basically admitted that you fed Kool-Aid to your voters, what will the next lie be? When will the Kool-Aid high wear off? When will you stop lying to justify outright theft from the American people? When will people realize that the fear driven by YOU and your left-wing media is what took us down further than we should have gone? When will you and your CEO buddies put out a full disclosure on where all of OUR money went while people who trusted you sacrificed and lost jobs, saving, etc?

B. Hussein Nobama...you OWE us a HUGE explanation...and I can see a full impeachment hearing being brought up before your 4 years is up
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post #505 of 6919 (permalink) Old 03-15-2009, 03:24 PM
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It will stop the instant you stop imagining it as such - much like your impeachment hearing.

What kind of full disclosure do you expect that is not being provided by INDEPENDENT overseers on Recovery.gov ?

Since the last time we discussed this site, it has grown massively. If you are so concerned about the money being spent, why are you not tracking it? You seem to be contradicting yourself.
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post #506 of 6919 (permalink) Old 03-15-2009, 05:22 PM
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I want to address what Nova Dobe and DR have been saying about the teleprompter issue, accuracy and spontaneity in speeches.
First of all, this is a man who very, very clearly actually thinks about issues and his position on each one. He has made many promises and predictions, and has a LOT on his mind and on his plate. He has advisors and a cabinet, but he has made it quite clear that he thinks each issue through himself, as well as taking others' evals under advisement. That said, and with the number of speeches, press conferences. press releases, interviews public appearances and meetings that he has, just exactly WHEN do you suppose he would have the time to write or co-write, read, edit, review and then MEMORIZE his speeches. If you recall, before the advent of teleprompters, every president, politician, professor, whatever came to the lecturn or podium with paper or book or index cards in hand. So what, besides technology, is different? It seems to me that you are so desperate for things to pick apart that you are succumbing to Rushian and O'Reillyian and Hannityian (etc...) show-biz, anti-intellectual garbage, just to have a negative thing to insinuate. I actually feel kind of sorry for you, having lost any trace of wonder, hope, idealism, enthusiasm - - - and I do NOT say this lightly, as we are going through horrible personal and business crises at the moment, directly resultant from the current economy. But to try to blame someone who has not yet been in office 2 months, when the problems were decades in the making?? Puleeze. How disingenuous. Cut the guy a little slack - if you came into a baseball game in the last inning, and it was the worst game in history and the fans were jeering and throwing rotten tomatoes - and then blamed YOU, the guy who had been in the dugout until now, before you had even spit into your hands and wiped them off on your uniform - wouldn't you think that was just a teensy bit unjust - and foolish? Wouldn't you want to see if the new batter or pitcher could turn the game around? Wouldn't that be exciting???

By the way, I don't know if you remember, but after GW showed, in his first few months of office, what an incredibly lousy grasp he had of the English language (and don't be fooled - his Spanish is not all he claims it is either...), he was fitted with an earpiece and transmitter, worn under his jacket, through which his "coaches" could prompt, correct and otherwise guide and handhold him through his speeches. His bizarre "mis-speaks" like "strategery" aside, he often bumbled things, and earned his reputation quite fairly. And, for all you deniers - it's all on tape, unedited. Personally, I have a REALLY hard time with any politician, scientist, author, teacher, etc. who cannot pronounce "nuclear". I liked Jimmy Carter (I have become much more ambivalent in recent decades), but it was a concerted effort, since he says "new-kewlur". This despite the fact that he was trained in nuclear power, and trained for the position of engineer in the Navy. Grrrr!
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post #507 of 6919 (permalink) Old 03-15-2009, 05:45 PM Thread Starter
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how 'bout we stick to 'facts' and issues. I don't care if Obama uses a teleprompter. ok.

So, everyone feels good about the huge spending the government is doing? More spending in 52 days than all prior administrations combined? If you put aside you love for Obama and think objectively about it, put reason to it, how is it a fix or how is it good? The government does not know what it is doing - throwing desperation pass. Sorry - that's not responsible.

And to those suffering personally in this economy - most of us - we should be critical of the government - not singly Obama - because when you do the mental exercise and really really think about the level of government spending and subsequent debt - how is that going help and not simply make things worse? How cynical have we all as a generation gotten when we praise the current administration for what will be simply devastating to future generations?

One thing I like that Obama said in one of his speeches - it doesn't matter if you are going 100mph or 50 mph over the cliff - you are still going over the cliff.
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post #508 of 6919 (permalink) Old 03-15-2009, 05:49 PM Thread Starter
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It will stop the instant you stop imagining it as such - much like your impeachment hearing.

What kind of full disclosure do you expect that is not being provided by INDEPENDENT overseers on Recovery.gov ?

Since the last time we discussed this site, it has grown massively. If you are so concerned about the money being spent, why are you not tracking it? You seem to be contradicting yourself.
why track it? like we can believe anything posted as fact? like it's a good thing? it is ok and patriotic and American to disagree with the spending on principle and demand accountability and yes to even demand it not be done. it is wreckless and irresponsible. Plus it's not so much the trillions in spending - its the policy of the administration and the regulations that are being ramrodded through to carry the Democrat left agenda that they have been champing at the bit to do for years. We are being fleeced - you enjoy that?
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post #509 of 6919 (permalink) Old 03-15-2009, 05:51 PM Thread Starter
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and lolo, no argument here about Bush language - I am no Bush fan. I'm not defending him. I was simply pointing out a double standard.
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post #510 of 6919 (permalink) Old 03-15-2009, 06:02 PM
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why track it? like we can believe anything posted as fact? like it's a good thing? it is ok and patriotic and American to disagree with the spending on principle and demand accountability and yes to even demand it not be done. it is wreckless and irresponsible. Plus it's not so much the trillions in spending - its the policy of the administration and the regulations that are being ramrodded through to carry the Democrat left agenda that they have been champing at the bit to do for years. We are being fleeced - you enjoy that?

Reminder - its a 40 percent Republican generated stimulus.

To not believe something on this level, with SO MANY people involved, just tells me that you have reached a very deep place of cynicism - to the point where I dont even know how we talk on common grounds. If you cant believe anything then how do you carry on discussions like this? Admittedly, you are far more consistent in your surrender than others are but you worry me (for your sake).

It defies logic to imagine that something so massive could go on and be a lie or so deceptive. This isn't one person here - it is a group of independent monitors. This further moves it away from possibly being staged. I just dont understand how you can think this.
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post #511 of 6919 (permalink) Old 03-15-2009, 06:33 PM
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Nuclear/newkular/etc. are really just variants--regionalisms--accents. Lots of words in our language are not pronounced as they are spelled and may even be pronounced by most Americans in a way that is considered incorrect by English mavens. In any other place using any other example, I imagine you would be arguing fiercely that the way someone pronounces a word is not an indication of their intelligence.

Moving on....Obama has gone against the theories of a heck of a lot of economists (contrary to liberal beliefs, Roosevelt's big government spending did NOT end the Great Depression) and is taking this country in a direction new for the USA, and more in the direction of classic European socialism. I don't think the results we have seen in those countries merit the wholesale one-way wrenching of our economy onto a track to follow them down into stagnation.

The magnitude of the changes we are making is staggering--more government debt than ever before BY FAR, more government involvement in our "free" market, more vitriol heaped on those who are actually working and producing in this country.

"Give the guy a chance" in the face of all this????
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post #512 of 6919 (permalink) Old 03-15-2009, 06:38 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
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Reminder - its a 40 percent Republican generated stimulus.

To not believe something on this level, with SO MANY people involved, just tells me that you have reached a very deep place of cynicism - to the point where I dont even know how we talk on common grounds. If you cant believe anything then how do you carry on discussions like this? Admittedly, you are far more consistent in your surrender than others are but you worry me (for your sake).

It defies logic to imagine that something so massive could go on and be a lie or so deceptive. This isn't one person here - it is a group of independent monitors. This further moves it away from possibly being staged. I just dont understand how you can think this.
Republican-shmublicans... I.DON'T.CARE.

Can you honestly think about it and in your mind with what you know even basically about economics conclude that it is a-ok to spend trillions and trillions of dollars that you don't have and everything will be just dandy? Don't lecture me about cynicism and don't worry about me for my sake - that's a little condescending of you. If you are not worried then I worry about you and the rest of you that think everything is just going to be fine. Well - maybe things will end up where you want them and then it will be fine - for you. I'm shaking my head at where we as a nation are headed. I don't like it. I have that right and I don't have to accept that it is the right thing to do.

And it's not stimulus despite what they are calling it. It is grand government spending for the sake of enacting long lusted after policies and programs - a power grab, a shift in social policy, etc.

Let's just all agree to one thing. At the end of four years, we all agree to honestly ask ourselves "am I better off now than four years ago" and we agree to answer it honestly for ourselves before we go off and vote. Then we can debate the issue more - then.

It's not stimulus. It's spending.
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post #513 of 6919 (permalink) Old 03-15-2009, 06:45 PM Thread Starter
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It defies logic to imagine that something so massive could go on and be a lie or so deceptive.
You are onto something!!! if you can't think it through on economic terms, then you are reaching the same conclusion through logic You are so bought into the hype, the hope, the desperation, you can't think of it possibly not working or not being good. Even if you give it 50/50 odds -- would you bet your life on 50/50 odds?
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post #514 of 6919 (permalink) Old 03-15-2009, 07:15 PM
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Republican-shmublicans... I.DON'T.CARE.

Can you honestly think about it and in your mind with what you know even basically about economics conclude that it is a-ok to spend trillions and trillions of dollars that you don't have and everything will be just dandy? Don't lecture me about cynicism and don't worry about me for my sake - that's a little condescending of you. If you are not worried then I worry about you and the rest of you that think everything is just going to be fine. Well - maybe things will end up where you want them and then it will be fine - for you. I'm shaking my head at where we as a nation are headed. I don't like it. I have that right and I don't have to accept that it is the right thing to do.

And it's not stimulus despite what they are calling it. It is grand government spending for the sake of enacting long lusted after policies and programs - a power grab, a shift in social policy, etc.

Let's just all agree to one thing. At the end of four years, we all agree to honestly ask ourselves "am I better off now than four years ago" and we agree to answer it honestly for ourselves before we go off and vote. Then we can debate the issue more - then.

It's not stimulus. It's spending.
Boy, I can certainly see how that would come across condescending after you said that. I assure you, that is not at all how I mean it. I think what Lois said earlier about hope and fear, sums it up. Furthermore, Im not "lecturing" you on cynicism. I am expressing the same concern in terms of how people can possibly feel like they have a place to stand, when doubt like yours exists that seems pointed in every possible direction.

It is such a hard thing for me to understand when I am sitting here with all kinds of hope and high expectations for our future. And again, I certainly dont feel I am any better than you so it is quite impossible for me to talk down to you in any way whatsoever. I speak rather firmly about things I have conflicts with rationally, but I tend to put others on a higher pedestal than myself and I listen and try to learn accordingly. Isn't this obvious? Or maybe you mistrust my queries as well, thinking they are disingenuous, merely there to draw others out for battle?

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post #515 of 6919 (permalink) Old 03-15-2009, 08:08 PM
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I speak rather firmly about things I have conflicts with rationally, but I tend to put others on a higher pedestal than myself and I listen and try to learn accordingly. Isn't this obvious? Or maybe you mistrust my queries as well, thinking they are disingenuous, merely there to draw others out for battle?
They do sometimes come across as Socratic irony.

Speaking for myself, however, it is the places where I feel most unsure that I am driven to defend most strongly if my logic is questioned. LOL
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post #516 of 6919 (permalink) Old 03-15-2009, 08:51 PM
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They do sometimes come across as Socratic irony.

Speaking for myself, however, it is the places where I feel most unsure that I am driven to defend most strongly if my logic is questioned. LOL
I certainly do ask questions to flesh out more analysis, with a view of my stance on things, but not in any way to trap like Socrates did. I ask questions that challenge ideas but the questions are not usually dead ends. They are open to all answers, unlike the Socratic method whose intent was to trip up and ensnare.

When I feel unsure on a subject is when I get quiet and just listen or I ask more questions.

You guys have caused me to wonder quite a bit about all of this economic stuff. Although I am remaining positive and trusting, I don't see any of it the same way because of your insights and comments.
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post #517 of 6919 (permalink) Old 03-15-2009, 09:19 PM
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Av- here is something else for you to ponder... JPMorgan turning a profit, Citi turning a profit, Ford rejecting bailout money, GM rejecting bailout money it was allotted this quarter. ALL without this new trillion dollar package.

THIS is why the market rallied this weekend. Do you see how the adminstrations arguement that the government is the only thing that will fix this is flawed? I need to find the quote but its an exact quote from a press conference of Obama's.
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post #518 of 6919 (permalink) Old 03-15-2009, 09:21 PM Thread Starter
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It is such a hard thing for me to understand when I am sitting here with all kinds of hope and high expectations for our future.
Based on what? and I admit it is such a hard thing for me to understand when I am sitting here with all kinds of fear and concern for our future.

Food for thought: just because we have lived with deficits and have come to expect them, put it in perspective of time and history. This is an experiment of grand proportions and we and the next generation will live the results. I know enough about economics and money and basic accounting principles to be scared. Were we running our own business and doing this, we would go rapidly out of business. So don't let a rather short period of history of living with large deficits lull you into a false sense of security ... it probably won't work. If you accept it as an instrument of change, then you will be right. Like Rahmbo says, don't let a good catastrophe go to waste.
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post #519 of 6919 (permalink) Old 03-15-2009, 09:23 PM Thread Starter
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and another economic principle to consider: credit is not capital. Think about it.
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post #520 of 6919 (permalink) Old 03-15-2009, 09:41 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by avalonandon View Post
I speak rather firmly about things I have conflicts with rationally, but I tend to put others on a higher pedestal than myself and I listen and try to learn accordingly. Isn't this obvious? Or maybe you mistrust my queries as well, thinking they are disingenuous, merely there to draw others out for battle?
well I guess maybe I am projecting... I am very very concerned if that's not obvious. When I get very very concerned, I get, well, like this.

I do know for a fact, I've been playing the 'game' by the rules for 26 years - working, putting money into a 401k, paying taxes, having a decent place to live.. and I am no further ahead today than then, despite having a higher nominal pay. My net pay in purchasing power is flat. My 401k balance is in real terms flat. and there is so much behind the value of our money and the impact on our lives from government abusive spending and debasement and debt... I think if you drew a curve to show the correlation, how close one is to retirement with a goal on the X axis and the realization of government national debt on the Y axis, it is a very sharply rising curve. it hits home!!!
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post #521 of 6919 (permalink) Old 03-15-2009, 09:47 PM
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and another economic principle to consider: credit is not capital. Think about it.
Does that mean having a Visa card with a high credit limit DOESN'T make you richer?? LOL Another hope dashed!!

Last edited by melbrod; 03-15-2009 at 10:11 PM.
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post #522 of 6919 (permalink) Old 03-15-2009, 09:47 PM Thread Starter
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Does that mean having a credit card with a high credit limit DOESN'T make you richer?? LOL Another hope dashed!!
sorry...
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post #523 of 6919 (permalink) Old 03-16-2009, 11:59 AM
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TRUTH you never saw during the election

despite what NoBama promised and the media reported, this type of article was not published during the election...but, it was said over and over again by the Republicans...it's sad...and even sadder that people believed the hype all in the name of "change" in our pockets:

long read but worth it...

Don't Count On A Consumer-Led Recovery - Yahoo! Finance
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post #524 of 6919 (permalink) Old 03-16-2009, 12:06 PM
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As Al Sharpton runs his big mouth

I find it amazing that "great" black leaders like Al Sharpton focus their attention on idiots like Don Imus or other people who slip in their language...God forbid you offend someone in this country

and yet, Sharpton's big mouth never seems to focus on important things like:

March 15, 2009

WASHINGTON (AP) - At least 3 percent of residents in the nation's capital are living with HIV or AIDS and every mode of transmission is on the rise, according to a report to be released Monday by D.C. health officials.

The findings in the 2008 epidemiology report by the D.C. HIV/AIDS Administration point to a severe epidemic that's impacting every race and sex across the population and neighborhoods.

"Our rates are higher than West Africa," said Shannon Hader, the administration's director, who used to spearhead the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention's work in Zimbabwe. "They're on par with Uganda and some parts of Kenya."

The report, obtained by The Washington Post, updates a landmark 2007 study that discovered the epidemic had moved from affecting a mostly gay population to a general one, and that it disproportionately affected blacks.

The study found that the number of HIV and AIDS cases jumped 22 percent from the 12,428 reported in 2006. Almost 1 in 10 residents between 40 and 49 are living with the virus, and black men had the highest infection rate at almost 7 percent, the report said. It added that 3 percent of black women in D.C. have HIV.

The virus was most often transmitted by men having sex with men, followed by heterosexual transmission and injection drug use, the report said.

"This is very, very depressing news, especially considering HIV's profound impact on minority communities," said Anthony Fauci, director of the National Institutes of Health's program on infectious diseases. "And remember: The city's numbers are just based on people who've gotten tested."

The epidemiology report warns that the true number of D.C. residents infected with HIV "is certainly higher."

Meanwhile, another study scheduled to be released Monday by city health officials looks at heterosexual sexual behavior, and attempts to dissect people's choices before they are tested for or become infected with HIV. It was conducted by the George Washington University School of Health and Health Services with funding from the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention.

The study found that three in five D.C. residents who had connections in neighborhoods with high poverty and AIDS rates were aware of their HIV status and that three in 10 had used a condom the last time they had sex, among other findings.
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post #525 of 6919 (permalink) Old 03-16-2009, 12:12 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nova_dobie View Post
despite what NoBama promised and the media reported, this type of article was not published during the election...but, it was said over and over again by the Republicans...it's sad...and even sadder that people believed the hype all in the name of "change" in our pockets:

long read but worth it...

Don't Count On A Consumer-Led Recovery - Yahoo! Finance

and here is another reason why we shouldn't count on a consumer-led recovery....

Obama believes "credit is the lifeblood of a healthy economy" as well as many economists..

what's missing here is savings which is at the root of any credit. Banks have to have some bedrock of savings to lend against. And the flaw with the credit lifeblood school of thought is that consumers have come to rely on credit as their rainy day backup versus real savings. Savings requires a reduction in personal spending. So it's a double edged sword; no one is lending - Americans realize the need to save for the rainy day we are in; credit flows once again, Americans borrow and go into debt which can't be repaid because of the rainy days we are in.... so it's viscious credit cycle. With zero savings rate, America is addicted to credit and credit/debt is not capital. It's like having to borrow someone else's umbrella when the rainy day hits versus having one of one's own, otherwise you get soaked when there is no umbrella.
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