The Politics Thread... - Page 200 - Doberman Forum : Doberman Breed Dog Forums
General Off Topic Chat This forum is to be used to post about Non Doberman topics. Do you want to post about your spouse, car, job? Test your signature? Post here

 519Likes
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
post #4976 of 6919 (permalink) Old 07-10-2015, 11:27 AM
Alpha
 
dobermama's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 895
Location: WV
Dogs Name: Remington
Dogs Age: 3 yr
Gallery Pics: 2
Visit dobermama's Gallery
Thanks: 647
Thanked 2,437 Times in 704 Posts
Images: 2
                     
Quote:
Originally Posted by melbrod View Post
Don't remember exactly how the Rosa Park's situation played out--were there other seats available on the bus? Was the seat she chose empty in the first place--but just in the front where she wasn't supposed to be? Or was she asked to move after she was already seated, just so someone else--white with a right (bigoted thinking)--could sit there?

I was not on the bus, so to say definitely what exactly did occur would be conjecture- but in all honesty, it really doesn't matter. It was a bus, with seats- one of which she chose to sit in. Something that it should have been totally HER RIGHT to do, and yet she was arrested for it- setting in motion a change that has brought us to where we are today.

It's not a question of rights to me, exactly, it's a question of kindness towards others who don't share your beliefs. And where the balance should be between your "ethical" (to you, anyway) deeply held beliefs and that kindness we're told to share with others.......and how our government fits into all this.

As to how the government fits in- without the government interceding, it could very likely STILL be illegal for Rosa to sit in an empty seat of her choice, I might STILL be unable to do my grocery shopping on Sunday afternoons, and LGBT people might STILL be forced to have their lives marginalized or be denied access to their partner in an emergency simply because of the person they choose to love.
.
Does the government stepping in make racists or bigots suddenly like those who are different or devout Christians shop on Sunday? Of course not, those who hold beliefs that tightly will continue to hold them.

However, those who do NOT hold those same beliefs will have a bit more freedom in their own lives. I don't know where folks get the idea that "we" are refusing to compromise or back down? I certainly never protested outside of a church on Sunday demanding the right to buy milk, but boy am I glad that somebody pushed the issue into the courts so that I am free to do so.

Often in my shopping I DO see families who have likely just come from church and are also picking up milk on their way home. Does that make them bad Christians? Or, did the ending of the Blue Law just make their lives a bit more convenient? Were there members of their families who were (and may still be) vehemently opposed to Sunday shopping? Possibly, but THEY ARE NOT. So, to me, that is progress! Was it forced progress? Yes, I still remember the angry protesters we walked through the first time we shopped at Hills Dept Store on a Sunday. I never see them now
dobermama is offline  
Advertisement
 
post #4977 of 6919 (permalink) Old 07-10-2015, 11:48 AM
Alpha
 
dobermama's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 895
Location: WV
Dogs Name: Remington
Dogs Age: 3 yr
Gallery Pics: 2
Visit dobermama's Gallery
Thanks: 647
Thanked 2,437 Times in 704 Posts
Images: 2
                     
Quote:
Originally Posted by rebkas View Post
At the risk of opening another can of worms...why is cammo, pick-ups, Confederate Flag and guns objectionable?
Because where I live, the people who have that type of wedding are nearly always racist/bigoted aholes. Your mileage might vary.

That being said, I have friends who married in camo and posed with guns/bows because they are avid hunters. No Confederate flag present. And they are NOT racist (thus why they do not choose to fly that flag). Again, YOUR mileage where you live might vary. I have yet to meet anyone here with that flag proudly displayed who is NOT a racist (and usually also bigoted against gays, muslims and pretty much anyone who differs from them). Are they out there? Maybe, so I am not saying that they do not exist, just that I have yet to find one.

So to me, those particular items mixed together give a VERY negative/objectionable connotation to which I am deeply opposed. I have never claimed that I do not personally hold bias (EVERY BREATHING HUMAN DOES!). I just don't let mine influence how I behave at work.

I would treat that couple the same as every other wedding couple we see. One caveat, however- if they spent our initial consultation spouting vitriol against blacks, dropped the "N" word repeatedly, used offensive language against gays or expected DH or myself to wear camo/flag gear while shooting the wedding, then I would refuse to take them on as clients. I have every right to refuse a single person that I take issue/umbrage with or to- I do NOT have the right to refuse them simply because of who they are/what they wear.

If the baker everyone has been so fired up about had ALWAYS refused service to this particular couple because they mistreated him or had requested a pornographic or offensive cake, then he would have a right to turn them away. Quite the opposite was true, he had willingly served them before, and just refused to do the wedding cake because he personally feels that their marriage is a abomination in the eyes of HIS god- and he would treat ANY OTHER gay couple attempting to purchase a wedding cake from him the exact same way.

To discriminate is to refuse service to ALL people of a particular type due to a bias you hold- we are all free to refuse service to one particular person we do not want to work with. There is a BIG DIFFERENCE between the two.
dobermama is offline  
post #4978 of 6919 (permalink) Old 07-10-2015, 12:17 PM
Alpha
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 557
Location: Fort Worth, TX
Dogs Name: Cleo
Dogs Age: 5
Gallery Pics: 0
Visit Rednec_13's Gallery
Thanks: 337
Thanked 638 Times in 331 Posts
                     
I am friends with some gay and lesbians but the LGBT is full of intolerance. The LGBT and the NAACP are two groups that if you do not think their way then they will make you the enemy. This could be a topic about war drinking age what ever it is they will go after you. They do not care if you are a black man or a gay person. All they care about if pushing what they want without compromise.

If you are wondering why their is racism (not that I support it) just look at the studies on how some of this groups live. Blacks have a huge crime problem but also their music really does make gangs seem like a good think and hitting women is alright. Then listen to them talk. I do not what to see your underwear too. I can go on and on about them. So what is it about this people that make them easy targets for racism? I have friends that are black but are told they act white because they wear cloths that fit and talk like a normal person.

I am seeing people say look at my own history before I judge. I just ask you to look at your owns group pass and current history when you say the same think. I know my history better then most people. I also know a lot world history on top of that.
Rednec_13 is offline  
Advertisement
 
post #4979 of 6919 (permalink) Old 07-10-2015, 12:29 PM
Xena's Mom
 
rebkas's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2015
Posts: 91
Location: South Carolina
Dogs Name: Krystal died 5-2014,Xena born 3-8-14 (dobie), Gooberdog OLD Chihuahua, and Ringo, Boxer/bully mix
Titles: Krystal was a rescue. Xena doesn't, but I think her Gr-Grandparents do.
Dogs Age: 15m, OLD, 3yr
Gallery Pics: 7
Visit rebkas's Gallery
Thanks: 370
Thanked 123 Times in 49 Posts
Images: 7
           
Are they out there? Maybe, so I am not saying that they do not exist, just that I have yet to find one.

Well, now you have!

After researching my hubs family tree, he is descended from men that fought in the Civil War. We do have a few Confederate Flags in and around our house, but it TRULY is because of the pride he feels re: his heritage and ancestors. We don't drop the "N" word altho the "F" bomb has been known to make an appearance!

We have had people of all sorts of different races/orientation over for cookouts and there has only been one problem- which I'm SURE you'd agree and it was handled (A man made a sexual comment about my 7 yr old son!), but other than that- good family, good times! We are simple people that live out in the country and ride ATVs and go muddin'. We get up and go to work each day. We do whatever we can to help people in need. We don't tolerate bigotry or discrimination.
BUT- it hurt when the Confederate Flag was lowered this morning. To those people that don't agree with it or like it- why do they allow the flag to have that much power? From what I could see thru the news and social media-- most of the people yelling to remove it weren't even from SC. Most of SC couldn't find the Flag if you drew a map cuz they just didn't spend time worrying over it.
No matter which way you think- someone is going to be offended. THAT (to me) is the sad part.

btw-- my tree is from Czech Republic, so I don't really have a voice....

Last edited by rebkas; 07-10-2015 at 12:37 PM.
rebkas is offline  
The Following User Says Thank You to rebkas For This Useful Post:
GRAYGHOST (07-10-2015)
post #4980 of 6919 (permalink) Old 07-10-2015, 12:33 PM
Xena's Mom
 
rebkas's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2015
Posts: 91
Location: South Carolina
Dogs Name: Krystal died 5-2014,Xena born 3-8-14 (dobie), Gooberdog OLD Chihuahua, and Ringo, Boxer/bully mix
Titles: Krystal was a rescue. Xena doesn't, but I think her Gr-Grandparents do.
Dogs Age: 15m, OLD, 3yr
Gallery Pics: 7
Visit rebkas's Gallery
Thanks: 370
Thanked 123 Times in 49 Posts
Images: 7
           
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rednec_13 View Post
The LGBT and the NAACP are two groups that if you do not think their way then they will make you the enemy.
.
OMG! THIS!!

Back when that Duck Dynasty Dude made his comments about how he didn't approve of gays or something like that one of my friends posted on FB about it. I liked the post. Then a gay "friend" got into it over FB with me about how she didn't realize I was a bigot. I told her, "I don't agree with what he said, but I will defend his right to say it"

She unfriended me.


Her loss.
rebkas is offline  
post #4981 of 6919 (permalink) Old 07-10-2015, 12:50 PM
Alpha
 
dobermama's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 895
Location: WV
Dogs Name: Remington
Dogs Age: 3 yr
Gallery Pics: 2
Visit dobermama's Gallery
Thanks: 647
Thanked 2,437 Times in 704 Posts
Images: 2
                     
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rednec_13 View Post
I am friends with some gay and lesbians but the LGBT is full of intolerance. The LGBT and the NAACP are two groups that if you do not think their way then they will make you the enemy. This could be a topic about war drinking age what ever it is they will go after you. They do not care if you are a black man or a gay person. All they care about if pushing what they want without compromise.
.
What about Westboro Baptist Church, Aryan Nations, Ku Klux Klan and Family Research Council? All they care about is pushing what THEY want without compromise. That is the ROLE groups like that play, which you should realize if you have read your history. Lobbying and fighting passionately to forward one's beliefs is pretty much what ALL such groups have in common. Some base their ideas on basic human rights (LGBT), others on hate (Westboro).

And as for your comment on rap culture- I struggle to even dignify that with any type of answer, because the entire premise is absurd. Wife beaters, shotguns, beer cans and country music are ALSO linked to seeing more underwear than I personally care to, wife beating and talking in a way that is difficult for some to understand! I still struggle to understand "ruraleze" as I like to term it- the runningallyourwordstogetherinagutteralkindamumblew hilefailingtousewordscorrectlyandmisusingothersent irelyknowhatimean?

Each cultural area tends to have a particular dialect or style- ebonics is no different. And in these parts, there are just as many WHITE kids adopting the rap culture as there are black, just so you know.

How "some" live??? Seriously??? So, then tell me- what about the white guy and his wife living down the road from me who neglect their kids (and beat eachother) drink constantly, don't have running water so they crap in a bucket in their bathroom and yet have always had the right to sit anywhere they want and marry whoever they want?!? Oh, they're also church attending Christians who fly the Confederate flag. The father will drunkenly slur out all kinds of hate when asked about any non-white/non-hetero people who are, in his diseased mind, "inferior" to him, convinced that he is correct in those assumptions. I fail to accept a world that feels he is RIGHT.
dobermama is offline  
post #4982 of 6919 (permalink) Old 07-10-2015, 12:58 PM
Alpha
 
dobermama's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 895
Location: WV
Dogs Name: Remington
Dogs Age: 3 yr
Gallery Pics: 2
Visit dobermama's Gallery
Thanks: 647
Thanked 2,437 Times in 704 Posts
Images: 2
                     
Quote:
Originally Posted by rebkas View Post
Are they out there? Maybe, so I am not saying that they do not exist, just that I have yet to find one.

Well, now you have!

After researching my hubs family tree, he is descended from men that fought in the Civil War. We do have a few Confederate Flags in and around our house, but it TRULY is because of the pride he feels re: his heritage and ancestors.
Maybe, maybe not. I am descended from German heritage, my family (some of whom still reside there) were part of the Nazi Party. My husband's mother was a Hitler Youth, who moved to the US as a young adult.

He and I feel NO PRIDE in the Swastika- although my "heritage" should mean that I do. I HATE what it stood for during that dark time, and have ZERO desire to see it continue to fly. For you to fly and take pride in the Confederate flag would be the same as me flying the Swastika- I did NOT fight in the war, but I did lose family to it, some of whom likely fought for it because they truly believed it was a just cause.

If it were hanging proudly in Germany today next to the German flag I would feel deep shame because of the role my family played. Did some of them do it not by choice? (in the case of my MIL, YES. ALL youth were Hitler Youth if they were white, non-Jews). How do you know why your husband's family fought on that side? Perhaps they too were conflicted about it at the time. Since you had to research it, rather than learning it directly from his family (as I and my husband did), maybe it turns out THEY WERE.

So, I personally rejoiced when they took that flag down today- because I know what it has come to mean. I also rejoice that in Germany, to fly the Swastika is illegal- because they too understand that keeping an icon of such a damaging time in a position of importance is WRONG.
dobermama is offline  
post #4983 of 6919 (permalink) Old 07-10-2015, 01:23 PM
Xena's Mom
 
rebkas's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2015
Posts: 91
Location: South Carolina
Dogs Name: Krystal died 5-2014,Xena born 3-8-14 (dobie), Gooberdog OLD Chihuahua, and Ringo, Boxer/bully mix
Titles: Krystal was a rescue. Xena doesn't, but I think her Gr-Grandparents do.
Dogs Age: 15m, OLD, 3yr
Gallery Pics: 7
Visit rebkas's Gallery
Thanks: 370
Thanked 123 Times in 49 Posts
Images: 7
           
Quote:
Originally Posted by dobermama View Post
Maybe, maybe not. I am descended from German heritage, my family (some of whom still reside there) were part of the Nazi Party. My husband's mother was a Hitler Youth, who moved to the US as a young adult.

He and I feel NO PRIDE in the Swastika- although my "heritage" should mean that I do. I HATE what it stood for during that dark time, and have ZERO desire to see it continue to fly. For you to fly and take pride in the Confederate flag would be the same as me flying the Swastika- I did NOT fight in the war, but I did lose family to it, some of whom likely fought for it because they truly believed it was a just cause.

If it were hanging proudly in Germany today next to the German flag I would feel deep shame because of the role my family played. Did some of them do it not by choice? (in the case of my MIL, YES. ALL youth were Hitler Youth if they were white, non-Jews). How do you know why your husband's family fought on that side? Perhaps they too were conflicted about it at the time. Since you had to research it, rather than learning it directly from his family (as I and my husband did), maybe it turns out THEY WERE.

So, I personally rejoiced when they took that flag down today- because I know what it has come to mean. I also rejoice that in Germany, to fly the Swastika is illegal- because they too understand that keeping an icon of such a damaging time in a position of importance is WRONG.
I'm not going to say that the Confederate Flag hasn't been used for racist, bigoted things. I'm just saying that In Our House and Family, it's not. The Confederate Flag did not start out as the Flag of the KKK/skinheads/etc. It was originally adopted to be the battle flag of Northern Virginia. It was not the "official" flag of the Confederate States. Just as the swastika wasn't originally designed for Hitler.

As far as researching not getting it from my hubs family- there's no way you could have known, but I'm 16 yrs younger than him. Most of his family was deceased long before I came around. And, at any rate, it's good to research and get the differing opinions/facts/sides to things because everyone has a different perspective.

And-- a person can choose whatever symbol they like to show the pride of their heritage. Perhaps, since the swastika is abhorrent, being of German decent, you could choose something reflecting the colors of that flag (gold/red/black) with the Eagle Crest on it. And while you don't have pride in your heritage, you at least recognize the history so it won't repeat itself. When it comes to the Confederate Flag, people are expecting southerners to remove it from history. And there's a saying that says something like if you don't learn from history, you're doomed to repeat it.

IDK-- this is one of those things that differing opinions will always clash, while I wouldn't necessarily be proud that my ancestors fought for Hitler, I could be proud of the fact that they stood up for something they believed in- just as you are right now. And that's OK.
rebkas is offline  
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to rebkas For This Useful Post:
Dictator (07-10-2015), GRAYGHOST (07-10-2015)
post #4984 of 6919 (permalink) Old 07-10-2015, 01:31 PM
Alpha
 
punkischic's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 2,134
Location: SFV, California
Dogs Name: Luke (Labrador x Pit Bull)
Titles: Retired guide dog & beloved pet~
Dogs Age: 6 yrs old (7/4/08)
Gallery Pics: 0
Visit punkischic's Gallery
Thanks: 3,540
Thanked 3,347 Times in 1,425 Posts
                     
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rednec_13 View Post
If you are wondering why their is racism (not that I support it) just look at the studies on how some of this groups live. Blacks have a huge crime problem but also their music really does make gangs seem like a good think and hitting women is alright. Then listen to them talk. I do not what to see your underwear too. I can go on and on about them. So what is it about this people that make them easy targets for racism? I have friends that are black but are told they act white because they wear cloths that fit and talk like a normal person.
Are you serious? How is this acceptable on this forum?

How is this acceptable on this forum? Seriously.

something clever goes here.
punkischic is offline  
post #4985 of 6919 (permalink) Old 07-10-2015, 01:35 PM
Super Moderator
 
greenkouki's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 15,252
Location: SC

Gallery Pics: 77
Visit greenkouki's Gallery
Thanks: 20,284
Thanked 31,777 Times in 10,207 Posts
Images: 77
                     
Click here to find out how greenkouki became a supporter
Allen West on removing the Confederate flag

Quote:
Yippee, the Confederate battle flag has now been removed from the grounds of the South Carolina State Capitol. And, just like that, it solves the problem of black-on-black crime and killings. Now we’ll see the out-of-wedlock birthrate in the black community drop from 75%. There will be better educational opportunities and schools in South Carolina’s black communities and all across America. The black unemployment rate will drop —especially the almost 40% black teenage unemployment rate. We’ll now see an economic entrepreneurial boon in the inner cities because the Confederate battle flag’s been lowered. And there’ll be no more gangs of blacks beating on whites — as we saw in Ohio recently. Yep, the liberal progressive media shouted "squirrel" and an entire nation went a running. All the yelling and shouting by the crowds was evidence of those who lack grace, respect and dignity. Former South Carolina Gamecocks football coach Lou Holtz remarked that when you get to the end zone, you should act like you’ve been there before. So what does the lowering of the Confederate battle flag have to do with the killing of little seven-year-old Amari Brown in Chicago — anyone know when his funeral is?
greenkouki is online now  
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to greenkouki For This Useful Post:
GRAYGHOST (07-10-2015), rebkas (07-10-2015)
post #4986 of 6919 (permalink) Old 07-10-2015, 02:29 PM
Alpha schmalpha
 
alan j.'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 3,816
Location: Florida

Gallery Pics: 1
Visit alan j.'s Gallery
Thanks: 7,851
Thanked 11,662 Times in 3,174 Posts
Images: 1
                     
I am confused by the flag issue that has been exchanged as the focus of a young-man coldly murdering 9 people.
I would be more apt to say some type of prescribed drug these men/boys are on would have influenced them more than a flag. Maybe flags just do not have a lobby anymore.
alan j. is offline  
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to alan j. For This Useful Post:
GRAYGHOST (07-10-2015), rebkas (07-10-2015)
post #4987 of 6919 (permalink) Old 07-10-2015, 02:41 PM
Alpha
 
dobermama's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 895
Location: WV
Dogs Name: Remington
Dogs Age: 3 yr
Gallery Pics: 2
Visit dobermama's Gallery
Thanks: 647
Thanked 2,437 Times in 704 Posts
Images: 2
                     
Quote:
Originally Posted by greenkouki View Post
Allen West on removing the Confederate flag
Quoting ANYTHING from someone like Allen West as any sort of proof about how normal reasonable people (of any color or race) feel about the removal of the flag, or as proof of why taking it down doesn't matter, loses ALL credibility in my eyes.

Seriously, he also thinks the EPA is after backyard BBQs, that Coexist stickers on your car are people giving the country to Satan and other equally nonsensical (and untrue) things. BTW, he and other Fox News pundits are the masters of yelling "Squirrel" and getting a bunch of poorly educated folks to follow them without bothering to check facts! Allen West is a blathering idiot- so chase his tail if you choose, but don't expect me or any other well researched person to do so. And if you think he can speak for "Blacks" , that is like saying Glen Beck speaks for ME as a "White" (another blathering idiot). You are more than welcome to believe whatever (SQUIRREL!) drivel you choose, as long as you accept the fact that it doesn't make it right, or correct to many of us.

Is there black on black violence? YES. Is there white on white violence? YES. Is there "insert color" on "insert different color" violence? YES. Is there a high rate of unwed parents and a cycle of poverty that leads to serious issues in our country (for ALL RACES)? YES. Is it a "black" problem or a "white" problem? NO, it is a poverty, ignorance and intolerance problem that belongs to all of us.

Does the Confederate flag on government grounds stand for a time and a culture that was NOT our proudest moment as a country? YES, just like the Swastika. It is just that it has taken the US much longer to come to that conclusion. I don't think Walmart should have stopped selling it, or that the Dukes of Hazzard should be taken off the air, but it sure as heck should NOT be flying on any government owned/taxpayer supported building or grounds. Anyone who believes otherwise is welcome to feel that way, but we do not have to allow it to continue just because you do. Whether you like it or not, it has been used as the banner for hate- just as the Swastika was, and therefore to many embodies that hate/intolerance.
dobermama is offline  
The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to dobermama For This Useful Post:
prairiefire (07-10-2015), Rosemary (07-10-2015), ZenChari (07-11-2015)
post #4988 of 6919 (permalink) Old 07-10-2015, 02:51 PM
Eschew Prolixity
 
melbrod's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 24,282
Location: Colorado
Dogs Name: Ori AKA Harold DogDog (Hairy Dog), RIP Caesar, Katana, Kip, Capri
Titles: DogDog Mouthe Extraordinaire; Kip Mr. Behavior; Capri Mis-Behavior
Dogs Age: DogDog 3 yrs?; RIP Kip 11 yrs; Capri 7 yrs; Katana 9 yrs; Caesar 13 yrs
Gallery Pics: 6
Visit melbrod's Gallery
Thanks: 82,480
Thanked 66,575 Times in 19,994 Posts
Images: 6
                     
Click here to find out how melbrod became a supporter
Quote:
Originally Posted by dobermama View Post

If the baker everyone has been so fired up about had ALWAYS refused service to this particular couple because they mistreated him or had requested a pornographic or offensive cake, then he would have a right to turn them away. Quite the opposite was true, he had willingly served them before, and just refused to do the wedding cake because he personally feels that their marriage is a abomination in the eyes of HIS god- and he would treat ANY OTHER gay couple attempting to purchase a wedding cake from him the exact same way.

To discriminate is to refuse service to ALL people of a particular type due to a bias you hold- we are all free to refuse service to one particular person we do not want to work with. There is a BIG DIFFERENCE between the two.
Gee, that's interesting, cause I see it sorta from the opposite view. The fact that the baker had served the couple before meant he was not bigoted against gays, per se. He just doesn't believe in gay marriage. He didn't insist they stop sharing their bed when they showed up to buy products from him. He served the gay couple readily as a couple until they asked him to specifically support something his religion told him was wrong.

Was gay marriage legal in his state when he refused the service?
melbrod is online now  
The Following 4 Users Say Thank You to melbrod For This Useful Post:
4x4bike ped (07-10-2015), Dictator (07-10-2015), GRAYGHOST (07-10-2015), rebkas (07-10-2015)
post #4989 of 6919 (permalink) Old 07-10-2015, 03:16 PM
Eschew Prolixity
 
melbrod's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 24,282
Location: Colorado
Dogs Name: Ori AKA Harold DogDog (Hairy Dog), RIP Caesar, Katana, Kip, Capri
Titles: DogDog Mouthe Extraordinaire; Kip Mr. Behavior; Capri Mis-Behavior
Dogs Age: DogDog 3 yrs?; RIP Kip 11 yrs; Capri 7 yrs; Katana 9 yrs; Caesar 13 yrs
Gallery Pics: 6
Visit melbrod's Gallery
Thanks: 82,480
Thanked 66,575 Times in 19,994 Posts
Images: 6
                     
Click here to find out how melbrod became a supporter
The gay bunch who dress in drag and go to a Catholic church to be served communion (which they do get, by the way), are the kind I mean when I say there needs to be compromise from that spectrum of the community. Why are they pushing their agenda in such a disrespectful way?

And I think purposely trying to drive someone out of business by asking hypothetical questions (like the pizzeria folks who were set up to say they would probably resist catering a gay marriage--the folks asking the question were not planning on asking for their services--they just wanted exposure--and the pizzeria ended up closing down. Death threats and all that kind of stuff.)

Yes--there does need to be compromise from BOTH sides of this issue.

If you want respect for your way of life, act respectfully toward others when they choose a different way--and keep your discussions civil (if they do). Generic YOU.

Last edited by melbrod; 07-10-2015 at 03:19 PM.
melbrod is online now  
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to melbrod For This Useful Post:
GRAYGHOST (07-10-2015), rebkas (07-10-2015)
post #4990 of 6919 (permalink) Old 07-10-2015, 05:16 PM
Big Lil pup
 
4x4bike ped's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2015
Posts: 6,035
Location: Portland, OR
Dogs Name: Foxfire's The Real McCoy (McCoy)
Titles: Pet of the Year
Dogs Age: DOB 9/12/14
Gallery Pics: 9
Visit 4x4bike ped's Gallery
Thanks: 16,344
Thanked 14,742 Times in 4,970 Posts
Images: 9
                     
Quote:
Originally Posted by melbrod View Post
Gee, that's interesting, cause I see it sorta from the opposite view. The fact that the baker had served the couple before meant he was not bigoted against gays, per se. He just doesn't believe in gay marriage. He didn't insist they stop sharing their bed when they showed up to buy products from him. He served the gay couple readily as a couple until they asked him to specifically support something his religion told him was wrong.

Was gay marriage legal in his state when he refused the service?
Gay marriage WAS NOT legal in Oregon at the time.

This occurred in my backyard. Sweet Cakes is (was) maybe 2 miles from my home. They have never been accused of bigoted behavior before, always serving anyone. However, in this instance, their moral compass indicated turning away an order, which went contrary to their religious beliefs and was not even sanctioned under the current Oregon definition of marriage.

They have been ordered by BOLI, The Oregon Bureau of Labor And Industries to pay these 2 women $135,000. They lost their current appeal. Had it not been for a sympathetic public who have raised $1000's to help them in their plight, they would be bankrupt. More importantly, the courts have virtually imposed a "gag order" on them demanding that they not make the public aware of their situation.

All for a cake!

This is Portland, Oregon, a truly wonderful place. Yet, one of the most absurdly ultra-progressive places in the USA. In 99% of America, this would never have been anything more than a minor issue. At most a modest fine.

As opposed to putting a small business into potential bankruptcy and taking away everything a middle aged, middle class couple has worked hard for for their entire life.

BTW, just for the record I am not religious by any definition of the word.I simply believe in religious freedom.

John Lichtwardt
Portland OR
4x4bike ped is offline  
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to 4x4bike ped For This Useful Post:
Dictator (07-10-2015), GRAYGHOST (07-10-2015)
post #4991 of 6919 (permalink) Old 07-10-2015, 05:37 PM
Alpha
 
Dobe_Mom's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Posts: 2,155
Location: New England
Dogs Name: Jossie, Jessie, Kayla, Mya, Prophet
Titles: GCH, CH, CGC, WAC, CA, CAA
Dogs Age: 9, 6, 3, 2, 18 months
Gallery Pics: 2
Visit Dobe_Mom's Gallery
Thanks: 6,111
Thanked 8,181 Times in 1,828 Posts
Images: 2
                     
From what I have read the damages were awarded because the bakers publicized the name and address of the couple publicly repeatedly, resulting in the couple receiving threats. The same law has been used in the past to protect christian employees from religious discrimination.
Bakery Ordered to Pay $135K in Damages to Same-Sex Couple : snopes.com

Dobe_Mom is offline  
The Following User Says Thank You to Dobe_Mom For This Useful Post:
River (07-10-2015)
post #4992 of 6919 (permalink) Old 07-10-2015, 05:51 PM
Eschew Prolixity
 
melbrod's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 24,282
Location: Colorado
Dogs Name: Ori AKA Harold DogDog (Hairy Dog), RIP Caesar, Katana, Kip, Capri
Titles: DogDog Mouthe Extraordinaire; Kip Mr. Behavior; Capri Mis-Behavior
Dogs Age: DogDog 3 yrs?; RIP Kip 11 yrs; Capri 7 yrs; Katana 9 yrs; Caesar 13 yrs
Gallery Pics: 6
Visit melbrod's Gallery
Thanks: 82,480
Thanked 66,575 Times in 19,994 Posts
Images: 6
                     
Click here to find out how melbrod became a supporter
I don't understand the purpose of this snopes article. Did you read the comment at the bottom about the author of the piece:


"Kim LaCapria
Kim LaCapria is a New York-based content manager and longtime snopes.com message board participant. Although she was investigated and found to be "probably false" by snopes.com in early 2002, Kim later began writing for the site due to an executive order unilaterally passed by President Obama during a secret, late-night session (without the approval of Congress). Click like and share if you think this is an egregious example of legislative overreach.


Read more at http://m.snopes.com/author/kim/#CqXsSPQO38OCZOYg.99"

Where did that comment come from?
Is this article supposed be a proof by Snopes that the claims of the bakery owners were false, or to prove that the author of the piece slanted the coverage?????
melbrod is online now  
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to melbrod For This Useful Post:
4x4bike ped (07-10-2015), GRAYGHOST (07-11-2015)
post #4993 of 6919 (permalink) Old 07-10-2015, 06:10 PM
Big Lil pup
 
4x4bike ped's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2015
Posts: 6,035
Location: Portland, OR
Dogs Name: Foxfire's The Real McCoy (McCoy)
Titles: Pet of the Year
Dogs Age: DOB 9/12/14
Gallery Pics: 9
Visit 4x4bike ped's Gallery
Thanks: 16,344
Thanked 14,742 Times in 4,970 Posts
Images: 9
                     
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dobe_Mom View Post
From what I have read the damages were awarded because the bakers publicized the name and address of the couple publicly repeatedly, resulting in the couple receiving threats. The same law has been used in the past to protect christian employees from religious discrimination.
Bakery Ordered to Pay $135K in Damages to Same-Sex Couple : snopes.com
You are completely wrong. Their names were initially published with their permission by
The Oregonian in an article approved by them. Complete with pictures and all! The rest of their info is public record.

"resulting in the couple receiving threats."

LOL... You obviously know nothing about Portland. There is absolutely NO way a gay couple in litigation with a Christian couple being perceived as anti-gay would receive threats locally. Quite the opposite...

This is a city where the Mayor (Sam Adams) admitted to having an affair with a 17 yo boy. (although it apparently was not consummated until his (Beau Breedlove's) 18th birthday). Yet he survived 2 recalls and went on to become the president of our City Club.

Please.. Stick with what you know for fact or from experience. (Dobermans?)

John
Portland

I could send you countless local news articles verifying what i have said.

BTW, you should know that, although I am a conservative, I have always consider myself pro gay rights. My wife contributes annually to HRC, with my blessing. (I'm more of an NRA type contributor)

Last edited by 4x4bike ped; 07-10-2015 at 06:35 PM. Reason: Clarification
4x4bike ped is offline  
post #4994 of 6919 (permalink) Old 07-10-2015, 06:35 PM
Alpha
 
Dobe_Mom's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Posts: 2,155
Location: New England
Dogs Name: Jossie, Jessie, Kayla, Mya, Prophet
Titles: GCH, CH, CGC, WAC, CA, CAA
Dogs Age: 9, 6, 3, 2, 18 months
Gallery Pics: 2
Visit Dobe_Mom's Gallery
Thanks: 6,111
Thanked 8,181 Times in 1,828 Posts
Images: 2
                     
Here is the actual ruling with the details of the incident, since we are talking about facts: http://www.oregon.gov/boli/SiteAsset...Cakes%20FO.pdf

Dobe_Mom is offline  
post #4995 of 6919 (permalink) Old 07-10-2015, 06:41 PM
Alpha
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 1,828
Location: Virginia
Dogs Name: Anne [Dobermann]
Titles: TV Watching Companion III, K9 Nosework Dog in training
Dogs Age: Anne-Born 7-26-08
Gallery Pics: 0
Visit GRAYGHOST's Gallery
Thanks: 12,725
Thanked 1,898 Times in 1,095 Posts
                     
Quote:
Originally Posted by dobermama View Post
What about Westboro Baptist Church, Aryan Nations, Ku Klux Klan and Family Research Council? All they care about is pushing what THEY want without compromise. That is the ROLE groups like that play, which you should realize if you have read your history. Lobbying and fighting passionately to forward one's beliefs is pretty much what ALL such groups have in common. Some base their ideas on basic human rights (LGBT), others on hate (Westboro).
I realize that the left loves to make connections that do not exist, but how do you manage to list the tiny Westboro Church (that no one notices except the media and the left), The Aryan Nation (big in prisons), the almost non existent Klan with the Family Research Council (which only defends Biblical truths)?

By the way those who trash the Confederate battle flag (never an official flag) forget that slavery came to America under the British flag, expanded under the American flag, and that the Klan, when it was revived in the 1920s, used the American flag. So, why the attacks on the battle flag? The men who fought under it were certainly not trying to defend slavery; they were merely defending their family and state from an un-Constitutional Union invasion.
GRAYGHOST is offline  
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to GRAYGHOST For This Useful Post:
alan j. (07-10-2015), Dictator (07-10-2015)
post #4996 of 6919 (permalink) Old 07-10-2015, 06:54 PM
Why is the rum gone?
 
River's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 2,263
Location: Washington
Dogs Name: Griffin and Viking (GSD)
Titles: CGC
Dogs Age: 12+ and 2
Gallery Pics: 0
Visit River's Gallery
Thanks: 7,192
Thanked 5,410 Times in 1,762 Posts
                     
Quote:
Originally Posted by 4x4bike ped View Post

LOL... You obviously know nothing about Portland. There is absolutely NO way a gay couple in litigation with a Christian couple being perceived as anti-gay would receive threats locally. Quite the opposite...
I think you'd be surprised at what people will do. You can't make generalizations like that about 100% of the population in Portland and have them be accurate. Since we're talking about experience.... yes, I know Portland (and Seattle) from fact and experience, and generalizations like that are false.

That would be like me saying every single one of us Wyoming residents are a bunch of conservative, gun toting, government hating, racist redneck militia members (except for Jackson, of course), and if you say otherwise you clearly know nothing about this state. Heck, I'm a transplant and I knew before I moved here that those generalizations weren't true about Wyoming. Although I do appreciate the gun laws here.

And that couple did publicize the gay couple's name, address, and phone number on their Facebook page. I doubt they had permission from the defendants to do that, although feel free to post your news sources. The couple had kids, and from what I read, wanted to keep things quiet.

So when you say that not one single soul in Portland would EVER make a death threat against someone who did something they didn't like, I call BS on that. It's a generalization and a bad one at that.
River is offline  
post #4997 of 6919 (permalink) Old 07-10-2015, 06:58 PM Thread Starter
Alpha
 
dobermansrule's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 14,479
Location: ∞∞
Dogs Name: quincy
Dogs Age: 10/8/2006 - 10/4/2014
Gallery Pics: 0
Visit dobermansrule's Gallery
Thanks: 9,517
Thanked 30,604 Times in 9,776 Posts
                     
Quote:
Originally Posted by dobermama View Post
Okay, look at it from a different perspective since it seems some feel that enforcing a law which prohibits discrimination is a forceful attack on core beliefs:

If a vegan is working at a slaughterhouse, I have every right to expect them to accept my steer when I drop it off for slaughter. I do NOT have the right to force them to eat it.

If a devout Catholic is working in a pharmacy, I have every right to expect them to fill my prescription for birth control. I do NOT have the right to force them to use it.

If a follower of Islam is working in a bar, I have every right to expect them to serve me a drink. I do NOT have the right to force them to drink it.

If any of the above folks find that their strongly held core beliefs would be harmed irrevocably by serving my needs at their place of business, don't you think that they should NOT be working there? Or is a particular belief somehow more valid than another? Seems to me they are all equally valid to the person who is feeling them.

So, if a bakery really cannot stomach their cake being served at a gay wedding, then they should stop making and selling wedding cakes. Stick to bakery items that do NOT violate their core beliefs.
I agree with a liberal LOL. and the cake bakers (a local story here in Oregon near me) screwed up in their blatant honesty about why they would not sell the gay couple a wedding cake. They could have simply declined the business "we are swamped and can't meet your schedule". No law forces a business owner to take business they do not want or cannot handle. Say, a wedding photographer. What if the gay couple went to a wedding photographer who was dead set against same sex marriage and the wedding photographer simply said - I can't fit you in my schedule. They are true to themselves and the gay couple is free to move on and find someone else. So standing up for their beliefs got the the cake bakers in trouble with the law and they have been hit with a huge fine. Anyway.
dobermansrule is offline  
The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to dobermansrule For This Useful Post:
Dictator (07-10-2015), GRAYGHOST (07-11-2015), melbrod (07-10-2015)
post #4998 of 6919 (permalink) Old 07-10-2015, 06:59 PM
Big Lil pup
 
4x4bike ped's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2015
Posts: 6,035
Location: Portland, OR
Dogs Name: Foxfire's The Real McCoy (McCoy)
Titles: Pet of the Year
Dogs Age: DOB 9/12/14
Gallery Pics: 9
Visit 4x4bike ped's Gallery
Thanks: 16,344
Thanked 14,742 Times in 4,970 Posts
Images: 9
                     
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dobe_Mom View Post
Here is the actual ruling with the details of the incident, since we are talking about facts: http://www.oregon.gov/boli/SiteAsset...Cakes%20FO.pdf
LOL.. I am well aware of the recent BOLI ruling. Obviously.... So what? Everything I have posted is true. You have no idea of the politics in this neck of the woods.

For your review:

"Steven Green, director of Willamette University's Center for Religion, Law & Democracy, said Monday after reviewing the final order that it appears to leave room for argument.

"If the order is interpreted and applied narrowly to prohibit any communication indicating an intent to discriminate against gays in the operation of their business, then it would likely not violate the owners' free expression rights," he said.

"It would be more problematic, however, if the order would prevent (the Kleins) from publicly stating their disagreement with the ruling, that they intend to fight the ruling, or that believe that gay marriage is sinful."

Courts commonly issue injunctions ordering people to desist from certain conduct, Green said. Though BOLI is a state agency and has the authority to do the same, it is not a court, he noted.

"As a First Amendment scholar," he added, "I find the declaration requirements more troubling than I do the fine."

This could go to The Oregon Supreme Court, or even SCOTUS
4x4bike ped is offline  
The Following User Says Thank You to 4x4bike ped For This Useful Post:
melbrod (07-10-2015)
post #4999 of 6919 (permalink) Old 07-10-2015, 07:04 PM Thread Starter
Alpha
 
dobermansrule's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 14,479
Location: ∞∞
Dogs Name: quincy
Dogs Age: 10/8/2006 - 10/4/2014
Gallery Pics: 0
Visit dobermansrule's Gallery
Thanks: 9,517
Thanked 30,604 Times in 9,776 Posts
                     
Quote:
Originally Posted by River View Post
That would be like me saying every single one of us Wyoming residents are a bunch of conservative, gun toting, government hating, racist redneck militia members
hey join the club. as a native southerner, with all this confederate flag feed goodism crap going on - that's exactly the perception and stereotype of people from the south. People are people and 2015 and counting show no signs of stopping with the labeling and stereotyping. And it gets worse it seems the more an area integrates and enlightens itself.. like ascending to a higher form gives some people the authority to name call and label others.
dobermansrule is offline  
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to dobermansrule For This Useful Post:
Dictator (07-10-2015), GRAYGHOST (07-11-2015)
post #5000 of 6919 (permalink) Old 07-10-2015, 07:05 PM Thread Starter
Alpha
 
dobermansrule's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 14,479
Location: ∞∞
Dogs Name: quincy
Dogs Age: 10/8/2006 - 10/4/2014
Gallery Pics: 0
Visit dobermansrule's Gallery
Thanks: 9,517
Thanked 30,604 Times in 9,776 Posts
                     
Quote:
Originally Posted by 4x4bike ped View Post
LOL.. I am well aware of the recent BOLI ruling. Obviously.... So what? Everything I have posted is true. You have no idea of the politics in this neck of the woods.

For your review:

"Steven Green, director of Willamette University's Center for Religion, Law & Democracy, said Monday after reviewing the final order that it appears to leave room for argument.

"If the order is interpreted and applied narrowly to prohibit any communication indicating an intent to discriminate against gays in the operation of their business, then it would likely not violate the owners' free expression rights," he said.

"It would be more problematic, however, if the order would prevent (the Kleins) from publicly stating their disagreement with the ruling, that they intend to fight the ruling, or that believe that gay marriage is sinful."

Courts commonly issue injunctions ordering people to desist from certain conduct, Green said. Though BOLI is a state agency and has the authority to do the same, it is not a court, he noted.

"As a First Amendment scholar," he added, "I find the declaration requirements more troubling than I do the fine."

This could go to The Oregon Supreme Court, or even SCOTUS
if it goes to SCOTUS - it's an easy call. 5-4 in favor of the ruling against the cake bakers.
dobermansrule is offline  
The Following User Says Thank You to dobermansrule For This Useful Post:
GRAYGHOST (07-11-2015)
Advertisement
 
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now



In order to be able to post messages on the Doberman Forum : Doberman Breed Dog Forums forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.

User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Password:


Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.

Email Address:
OR

Log-in










Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page
Display Modes
Linear Mode Linear Mode



Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome