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post #401 of 6919 (permalink) Old 03-02-2009, 02:55 PM
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Originally Posted by clipclop View Post
Well that was my point- that there was no scalpel applied. He didnt veto any of this- the scapel happens when congress puts together legeslation and its then sent to the office of the president to sign. The president then takes out the "scalpel" and goes to work. This hasnt happened. So his people could have looked at this 'carefully' and turned a blind eye. Which in my eyes is just as bad. I remember a while ago- during the election stating that I had never seen one instance where Obama had to make hard decisions and go against his party. He didnt have a track record for doing that. For better or worse, McCain had done that. I have no doubt that this same bill going to him would look a LOT different once it would have been on McCains desk. Bush would have signed this just as readily as Obama did.

Guess what- you wont get any explainations- this "transparency" that is unpresedented- is a mirage. They can tell you where the money is going but not have to tell you WHY. What good is it to know that millions are going to finding out why certain rats are stinky? Is that going to generate 1 single job? is it going to turn this economic mess around? If the answer is NO it needs to just NOT happen right now. Everything has its time... this isnt a time for any non-emergency funding!
I disagree because he and the dems butted heads heavily on this stimulus. And we don't know what he did or didnt do to the bill.

As far as explanations, I couldn't find any either. I know that recovery.gov is not run by Obama but by inspectors general. So the bias wont be like others have suggested.

Overall, I don't know what to make of it. I am a bit disheartened but this is just one sliver of the overall picture of what he is accomplishing. There are dozens of things that I support completely and are extremely important.
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post #402 of 6919 (permalink) Old 03-02-2009, 03:11 PM
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Is anything right now more important than our financial futures? Is the environment? is health care? is anything right now more important that this? I think its a simple matter of priorities. health care is extremely important- so is the environment... but what is MORE important.

Its his NUMBER one job RIGHT NOW (not tomorrow) to slash these 8,000 earmarks!! NONE of which will create ONE job. Im sure the fed offices are rundown and need a facelift- but go to your job or your house and look around. What upkeep are you being forced to hold off on.

Thats all i'm saying! Is even closing GITMO MORE important than this financial crisis? I think you DO know what to make of it... its just taking time to sink in. I can understand that...

Like I said- there are things I support as well- but to me NOTHING at this very moment in time is as critical as this pork ladden bill
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post #403 of 6919 (permalink) Old 03-02-2009, 03:11 PM
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at the end of the day... its his actions he will be measured on. What good is it to disagree and not use the presidential authority he PROMISED to use?
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post #404 of 6919 (permalink) Old 03-02-2009, 03:33 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by avalonandon View Post
Spent a couple hours last night combing through and researching the stimulus. So far, it looks like a huge amount of pet projects are packed in with the stuff that matters. Its pretty hard to find favorable articles about it either. Spent a lot of time on Real Clear Politics, Markets and World.

Im not really excited about some of it although It looks like they just put together the stimulus and then tacked on all the other stuff in order to avoid having to go through a long drawn out process to get separate bills passed over time.

Or maybe Im stating the obvious?
Yep
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post #405 of 6919 (permalink) Old 03-02-2009, 03:44 PM
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Wink

The Dead Horse
Young Chuck in Montana bought a horse from a farmer for $100.
The farmer agreed to deliver the horse the next day..

The next day the farmer drove up and said, "Sorry son, but I have some bad news... the horse died."

Chuck replied, "Well, then just give me my money back."

The farmer said, "Can't do that. I went and spent it already."

Chuck said, "Ok, then, just bring me the dead horse."

The farmer asked, "What ya gonna do with him?"

Chuck said, "I'm going to raffle him off."

The farmer said, "You can't raffle off a dead horse!"

Chuck said, "Sure I can, Watch me. I just won't tell anybody he's dead."

A month later, the farmer met up with Chuck and asked, "What happened with that dead horse?"

Chuck said, "I raffled him off.


I sold 500 tickets at two dollars a piece and made a profit of $998."

The farmer said, "Didn't anyone complain?"

Chuck said, "Just the guy who won. So I gave him his two dollars back.."

Chuck grew up and now works for the government.
He's the one who figured out how this "bail-out" is going to work
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post #406 of 6919 (permalink) Old 03-02-2009, 03:50 PM
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Originally Posted by michael327 View Post
The Dead Horse
Young Chuck in Montana bought a horse from a farmer for $100.
The farmer agreed to deliver the horse the next day..

The next day the farmer drove up and said, "Sorry son, but I have some bad news... the horse died."

Chuck replied, "Well, then just give me my money back."

The farmer said, "Can't do that. I went and spent it already."

Chuck said, "Ok, then, just bring me the dead horse."

The farmer asked, "What ya gonna do with him?"

Chuck said, "I'm going to raffle him off."

The farmer said, "You can't raffle off a dead horse!"

Chuck said, "Sure I can, Watch me. I just won't tell anybody he's dead."

A month later, the farmer met up with Chuck and asked, "What happened with that dead horse?"

Chuck said, "I raffled him off.


I sold 500 tickets at two dollars a piece and made a profit of $998."

The farmer said, "Didn't anyone complain?"

Chuck said, "Just the guy who won. So I gave him his two dollars back.."

Chuck grew up and now works for the government.
He's the one who figured out how this "bail-out" is going to work
Hey, thats a pretty good idea.

I need some extra funds for summer classes...
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post #407 of 6919 (permalink) Old 03-02-2009, 04:22 PM
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more Obama criminals....

WASHINGTON Ron Kirk, nominated as U.S. Trade Representative in the Obama administration, owes an estimated $10,000 in back taxes from earlier in the decade and has agreed to make his payments, the Senate Finance Committee said Monday.

The committee said the taxes arise from Kirk's handling of speaking fees that he donated to his alma mater, and for his deduction of the full cost of season tickets to the Dallas Mavericks professional basketball team.

The disclosure made the former Dallas mayor the latest in a string of top-level Obama administration appointees found to have underpaid their taxes, following Treasury Secretary Tim Geithner and Tom Daschle, who withdrew as candidate for Health and Human Services secretary. Nancy Killefer, Obama's pick for chief performance officer, also bowed out amid tax problems.
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post #408 of 6919 (permalink) Old 03-02-2009, 06:04 PM Thread Starter
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post #409 of 6919 (permalink) Old 03-02-2009, 06:15 PM
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Originally Posted by nova_dobie View Post
WASHINGTON – Ron Kirk, nominated as U.S. Trade Representative in the Obama administration, owes an estimated $10,000 in back taxes from earlier in the decade and has agreed to make his payments, the Senate Finance Committee said Monday.

The committee said the taxes arise from Kirk's handling of speaking fees that he donated to his alma mater, and for his deduction of the full cost of season tickets to the Dallas Mavericks professional basketball team.

The disclosure made the former Dallas mayor the latest in a string of top-level Obama administration appointees found to have underpaid their taxes, following Treasury Secretary Tim Geithner and Tom Daschle, who withdrew as candidate for Health and Human Services secretary. Nancy Killefer, Obama's pick for chief performance officer, also bowed out amid tax problems.
Well..too me that sounds like an honest mistake! One more in a list that's getting rather lengthy..me thinks.

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post #410 of 6919 (permalink) Old 03-03-2009, 06:14 AM
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The more I read about all of this stuff, the angrier I get with Pelosi. I am gradually moving a huge part of my blame for objects in this bill, on her shoulders.

Now this does not somehow exonerate Obama, but it makes me wonder if the dynamics of the whole event didnt pretty much leave Obama with a very unfair choice between two alternatives - and the one he chose was to go ahead and let it go.

I want to know why and something tells me that this is an extremely complex situation. Im sorry but I just dont see Obama lying in the sense that is being suggested by many of you. Yes, I am looking for an out because I absolutely do not believe that he would do this calculatedly but was somehow pushed into it.

I dont like her. You will very rarely hear me say that.

Politics: Barack Obama's Nancy Pelosi Problem | Newsweek Politics | Newsweek.com

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post #411 of 6919 (permalink) Old 03-03-2009, 06:33 AM
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Avalon- you are on to something here. Pelosi and Reid have a LOT of this on their shoulders. Do I think Obama came up with each earmark, stuck it in there... and said let them eat cake? No. I do not. Not at all. Obama's role here is to stand up to his own party and say HEY! This is NOT what we said we would do. I furthermore wouldnt go out and give a speech a few days later and claim that this earmark was free of pork. THAT is an outright LIE. I see Obama falling into the same trap as Bush. Bush FAILED to stand up to his own party. He did NOT hold the republican leaders accountable. He did NOT exercise as he should have his presidential veto powers. Dont you remember that being key in the debates? The problem is that these guys get in and have to "pay people back".
Tell me this- Obama isnt to blame for the pork being in their in the first place. You can even go as far to say... well maybe this ONCE he had to turn a blind eye to Pork (but its more of a stretch now getting tougher to swallow) Why oh WHY would he go in front of the American people and say the bill was earmark free? Thats what I really cant understand. Its there. Look at it... why would you say that? I will say- no WAY Bush ever would have got away with that!! The press would have gotten all over him... there would be Pelosi and Reid calling Bush the worst president ever. Its double standard all over the place.
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post #412 of 6919 (permalink) Old 03-03-2009, 06:34 AM
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One more thing- also wanna say that if you dont really place a lof blame/ responsibility on Obamas shoulders for this- is it fair to put it all on Bush? who has been dealing with Pelosi and company for YEARS now?
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post #413 of 6919 (permalink) Old 03-03-2009, 06:35 AM
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Okay. These are quotes from my brother (the one who the radio show was built around) on the bill: (this is good info)

- The thing was negotiated under Bush's watch and unwinding it at this late date would add months to the process, when the economy needs the money. Some of the earmarks are even from people no longer in Congress, like Domenici. Plus, the agencies were going to run out of money in days. It was McCain who was saying he would veto bills with earmarks. Obama used earmarks while he was in Congress, as McCain pointed out in the debates (as did McCain, til he got religion). The NY Times reports that 40% of the earmarks were put in the bill by the GOP so the GOP as usual is crying crocodile tears.

- That bill is five months late and contains 8500 earmarks. If they had to debate each of those the bill would take years to pass. That's why earmarks exist in the first place--members are on a kind of honor system to put things in bills that the federal government ought to pay for without having to debate the merits of that project before the entire body, which would take forever. There is no way that he was going to shut down the entire government which would create chaos (we know this because it happened in the 90s) over $7 billion out of a $400 billion bill. As I said, if the GOP was so opposed to earmarks it could have leaned on its constituents to strip the thousands of them that were for their pet projects, just as they enforced rigid discipline in opposing Obama's stimulus plan. They didn't, of course.
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post #414 of 6919 (permalink) Old 03-03-2009, 07:08 AM
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I think that is a HUGE copout!!! c'mon Av! 60% were put in by dems 40% were put in by Reps... does it matter at this point? This is what congress DOES to strong arm the president!! EVERY TIME no matter WHO is in power. To say the Reps are crying croc tears is pretty one sided. There are republicans that never met a dollar they didnt like spending!! No one is arguing who put this crap in the bill anyways... Obama said it wouldnt MATTER that he would take out a scalpel and cut pork on any bill coming across his desk. Did he do it? No. He did not. Some of these ear marks arent a few months old- they're YEARS old that never got passed in other economic budgets and are being slammed in now!! No different than dem's and republicans BOTH did when Bush was looking for war funding. At what point does this stop?? !!! I agree with Obama that this is a CRISIS. When is he still going to start being presidential and stand up to any wasteful Dem or Republican? This is what he promised to do.... i dont see him being any stronger than Bush!!
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post #415 of 6919 (permalink) Old 03-03-2009, 07:09 AM
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one more thing... We're on the verge of BK as a country... and the White House is throwing all these parties with $100 a pound beef!!??? We dont need this right now... Bush would NEVER have gotten away with that...
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post #416 of 6919 (permalink) Old 03-03-2009, 09:26 AM
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New Preamble To The Constitution

You cannot legislate the poor into freedom by legislating the wealthy out of freedom. What one person receives without working for, another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them, and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for, that my dear friend, is about the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it."

NEW PREAMBLE TO THE CONSTITUTION

"We the sensible people of the United States, in an attempt to help everyone get along, restore some semblance of justice, avoid more riots, keep our nation safe, promote positive behavior, and secure the blessings of debt-free liberty to ourselves and our great-great-great-grandchildren, hereby try one more time to ordain and establish some common sense guidelines for the terminally whiny, guilt ridden, delusional, and other liberal bed-wetter's. We hold these truths to be self evident: that a whole lot of people are confused by the Bill of Rights and are so dim they require a Bill of NON-Rights."
ARTICLE I: You do not have the right to a new car, big screen TV, or any other form of wealth. More power to you if you can legally acquire them, but no one is guaranteeing anything.
ARTICLE II: You do not have the right to never be offended. This country is based on freedom, and that means freedom for everyone -- not just you! You may leave the room, turn the channel, express a different opinion, etc.; but the world is full of idiots, and probably always will be.
ARTICLE III: You do not have the right to be free from harm. If you stick a screwdriver in your eye, learn to be more careful; do not expect the tool manufacturer to make you and all your relatives independently wealthy.
ARTICLE IV: You do not have the right to free food and housing. Americans are the most charitable people to be found, and will gladly help anyone in need, but we are quickly growing weary of subsidizing generation after generation of professional couch potatoes who achieve nothing more than the creation of another generation of professional couch potatoes .
ARTICLE V: You do not have the right to free health care. That would be nice, but from the looks of public housing, we're just not interested in public health care.
ARTICLE VI: You do not have the right to physically harm other people. If you kidnap, rape, intentionally maim, or kill someone, don't be surprised if the rest of us want to see you fry in the electric chair..
ARTICLE VII: You do not have the right to the possessions of others. If you rob, cheat, or coerce away the goods or services of other citizens, don't be surprised if the rest of us get together and lock you away in a place where you still won't have the right to a big screen color TV or a life of leisure.
ARTICLE VIII: You do not have the right to a job. All of us sure want you to have a job, and will gladly help you along in hard times, but we expect you to take advantage of the opportunities of education and vocational training laid before you to make yourself useful. (AMEN!)
ARTICLE IX: You do not have the right to happiness. Being an American means that you have the right to PURSUE happiness, which by the way, is a lot easier if you are unencumbered by an over abundance of idiotic laws created by those of you who were confused by the Bill of Rights.
ARTICLE X: This is an English speaking country. We don't care where you are from, English is our language. Learn it or go back to wherever you came from! (Lastly....)
ARTICLE XI: You do not have the right to change our country's history or heritage. This country was founded on the belief in one true God. And yet, you are given the freedom to believe in any religion, any faith, or no faith at all; with no fear of persecution The phrase IN GOD WE TRUST is part of our heritage and history, and if you are uncomfortable with it, TOUGH!
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post #417 of 6919 (permalink) Old 03-03-2009, 10:36 AM
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one more thing... We're on the verge of BK as a country... and the White House is throwing all these parties with $100 a pound beef!!??? We dont need this right now... Bush would NEVER have gotten away with that...
Bush "got away with it" all the time - at the beginning of every new administration, there are "get to know you" gatherings a lot, and they are quite opulent affairs, to make the dignitaries feel appreciated and respected. This is NOT the same as a mindlessly over-the-top party for the rich and bored.

I have a great big grudge against both Nancy Pelosi and Dianne Feinstein, who I find to be quite establishment and old-school. They really make me angry, and I haven't voted for my unesteemed Senator for the past couple of elections, and have written her to tell her why. She doesn't give a rat's behind - she's steeped in the good old boy society that is Washington, D.C. - and is one of the ones we need to get rid of. Pelosi is too careful because she isn't secure, so capitulates way too much - at the same time as she acts quite imperious about a lot of her pronouncements. I think it is partly growing pains and learning the new dynamics - I just wish the new dynamics were both dynamic and new.
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post #418 of 6919 (permalink) Old 03-03-2009, 10:51 AM
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I agree with you lois to an extent that I understand the balls and a few dinners- but in times of crisis- he can do a get to know you dinner without using $100.00 a pound beef. I mean c;mon at least Bush did frikkin bar b ques with coleslaw and potato's. A lot about leading is optics... it doesnt look good for the president and whoever he's partying with to be dining high on the hog while everyone else is being told or needing to tighten their belts and sacrifice.
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post #419 of 6919 (permalink) Old 03-03-2009, 10:51 AM
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The intellectual contortions people are going through to keep O'bama pure are getting more and more convuluted; his cover is wearing thin. Sorry, just my opinion.

But I'm not up-to-date anymore because of new puppy--named Capri (because she's such a little mountain goat!) Kip now has green eyes--He and Capri have been playing "who has the best chew toy?" for the last couple of nights. I think she'll be boss soon.
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post #420 of 6919 (permalink) Old 03-03-2009, 10:51 AM Thread Starter
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The more I read about all of this stuff, the angrier I get with Pelosi. I am gradually moving a huge part of my blame for objects in this bill, on her shoulders.

Now this does not somehow exonerate Obama, but it makes me wonder if the dynamics of the whole event didnt pretty much leave Obama with a very unfair choice between two alternatives - and the one he chose was to go ahead and let it go.

I want to know why and something tells me that this is an extremely complex situation. Im sorry but I just dont see Obama lying in the sense that is being suggested by many of you. Yes, I am looking for an out because I absolutely do not believe that he would do this calculatedly but was somehow pushed into it.

I dont like her. You will very rarely hear me say that.

Politics: Barack Obama's Nancy Pelosi Problem | Newsweek Politics | Newsweek.com
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post #421 of 6919 (permalink) Old 03-03-2009, 10:55 AM Thread Starter
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one more thing... We're on the verge of BK as a country... and the White House is throwing all these parties with $100 a pound beef!!??? We dont need this right now... Bush would NEVER have gotten away with that...
we ARE bankrupt. 'cept the gov can counterfeit, I mean print, money in the basement to pay for it's binges. You and me try that - we're in striped suits in some prison with bubba.
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post #422 of 6919 (permalink) Old 03-03-2009, 10:59 AM Thread Starter
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Bush "got away with it" all the time - at the beginning of every new administration, there are "get to know you" gatherings a lot, and they are quite opulent affairs, to make the dignitaries feel appreciated and respected. This is NOT the same as a mindlessly over-the-top party for the rich and bored.

I have a great big grudge against both Nancy Pelosi and Dianne Feinstein, who I find to be quite establishment and old-school. They really make me angry, and I haven't voted for my unesteemed Senator for the past couple of elections, and have written her to tell her why. She doesn't give a rat's behind - she's steeped in the good old boy society that is Washington, D.C. - and is one of the ones we need to get rid of. Pelosi is too careful because she isn't secure, so capitulates way too much - at the same time as she acts quite imperious about a lot of her pronouncements. I think it is partly growing pains and learning the new dynamics - I just wish the new dynamics were both dynamic and new.
WE HAVE COMMON GROUND - YAHOOOOOO!!! Wow - starting off to a great day!!! like an alternate universe.. I am one with BOTH AV and lolo at the same time.. I am HAPPY!!!
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post #423 of 6919 (permalink) Old 03-03-2009, 11:03 AM
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WE HAVE COMMON GROUND - YAHOOOOOO!!! Wow - starting off to a great day!!! like an alternate universe.. I am one with BOTH AV and lolo at the same time.. I am HAPPY!!!
ooooohhhhmmmmmmmmmm
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post #424 of 6919 (permalink) Old 03-03-2009, 11:07 AM Thread Starter
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ooooohhhhmmmmmmmmmm
indeed ooooooohhhhmmmmmm

this calls for special music... CRANK IT UP
YouTube - The Moody Blues - OM
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post #425 of 6919 (permalink) Old 03-03-2009, 11:28 AM
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RUSSIA BRUSHES OFF OBAMA: NO 'HAGGLING'
Tue Mar 03 2009 09:15:17 ET

Russian President Dmitri Medvedev on Tuesday showed willingness to discuss the US-planned missile defence system opposed by Moscow, but without 'haggling' linking it to Iran.

Medvedev was commenting during a visit to Spain on an alleged offer by US President Barack Obama to halt the defence system if Iran could be convinced to give up nuclear weapons and ballistic missiles.

Speaking at a joint press conference with Spanish Prime Minister Jose Luis Rodriguez Zapatero in Madrid, Medvedev welcomed the 'positive signals' coming from the Obama administration with which he hoped to reach 'agreements.'

'Haggling,' however, was not 'productive,' Medvedev said.

Developing...
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