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post #376 of 6919 (permalink) Old 02-28-2009, 10:48 PM
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Sorry if the analogies are annoying but you asked me what I know - this is what I know and is the lens I am looking through.
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post #377 of 6919 (permalink) Old 02-28-2009, 10:52 PM
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How will that 200Million dollars Hannah mentioned spur recovery?
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post #378 of 6919 (permalink) Old 02-28-2009, 10:58 PM
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How will that 200Million dollars Hannah mentioned spur recovery?
If you can show me that, where it is and let me read it for myself in its context, I can give you an answer. For all I know, it may piss me off too. But I wanna see it first. This is what I mean by saying that I dont know enough to be able to comment.

Point me to real things and let me read them and research first. I would like to know too because what Hannah just described doesnt sound too good to me either. But somehow, there has to be more to it than just that. I mean really. But I wanna know too.

See, I am perfectly willing to disagree with him and get upset too. The fact that the stimulus was released the night before the vote - that was underhanded. I think I have a pretty clear idea why he did it but to me, it was underhanded. Ultimately, the success of the plan will make the final judgment for me on that initial act...but it was still underhanded.
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post #379 of 6919 (permalink) Old 02-28-2009, 11:04 PM
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Here you go

Finding the Pork in the Obama Stimulus Bill - US News and World Report

1) Green golf carts. Ever rode a "neighborhood electric vehicle?" Well, you might want to now. The stimulus includes a tax credit toward the purchase of NEVs, which closely resemble golf carts in appearance. They are considered green vehicles because they use an electric battery instead of gasoline. You fill it up with juice by plugging it into a home electrical outlet. Don't expect to be able to take your NEV far outside of your neighborhood, though. Federal regulations limit their top speed to between 20 and 25 miles per hour. Freeway cruising is out.

2) Closing the ice-breaking gap. The U.S. Coast Guard is getting a shot in the arm from the stimulus, thanks to $98 million for a "polar icebreaker." That's not a new gum flavor, but a ship. The service currently has three ice-breaking ships able to sail through the frozen Arctic Ocean, but it wants a new and improved one to upgrade the aging fleet. Thad Allen, commandant of the Coast Guard, testified before a House panel last summer that icebreakers are needed for national security reasons. "Russia, Germany, China, Sweden and Canada are all investing and maintaining and expanding their national ice-breaking capacity," he said.

3) Homeland security stimulus. That pricey icebreaker is just one of several examples of homeland and national security spending contained in the stimulus not directly connected to restoration of the economy. There is also $200 million to "design and furnish" the Department of Homeland Security headquarters. De Rugy says that security spending should be considered by Congress in bills related to security, not the economy. "There was no debating these things on the merits," she says.

4) Clean Coal. While Obama has stressed the number of "green jobs" his stimulus will create, $3.4 billion of the $787 billion will be spent on old-school, non-green energy technology. That's how much goes to the Fossil Energy Research and Development program, a Department of Energy project that, among other things, seeks to reduce the amount of carbon emitted by the use of fossil fuels. Daniel Weiss, a senior fellow and director of climate strategy at the Center for American Progress, says that most of this money will go toward the development of clean-coal technology. "The goal is to develop a technology that can capture carbon dioxide from coal in a coal-fired power plant," he says. And where's the stimulus in clean coal? Weiss says that we won't see the results of this investment anytime soon, and $3.4 billion is probably only a fraction of what is needed for real clean-coal technology to ever be achieved. But, he adds, in the short term, "this would create research jobs and jobs at power plants." That isn't stopping critics from calling this fossil energy provision pork.

5) Mystery Meat. It's hard to know just how much pork there is in the stimulus package for one simple reason: We still don't know how exactly a huge chunk of it will be spent. A whopping $144 billion from the bill is flowing directly to state and local governments. That means the true amount of pork will depend on the priorities of your governors, legislatures, and mayors. The best guesses for what this money will be spent on might be in a list of "ready-to-go" projects released by the U.S. Conference of Mayors in January, dubbed the "Main Street Economic Recovery." Some of the most outlandish of these projects -- such as an $886,000 36-hole disc golf course in Austin, Texas -- won't be allowed to receive stimulus dollars because the bill explicitly says that none of its funds can be used for "any casino or other gambling establishment, aquarium, zoo, golf course, or swimming pool."
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post #380 of 6919 (permalink) Old 02-28-2009, 11:06 PM
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For starters, here is your transperencey - unprecedented, thorough almost to a fault and in line with his promises. It cannot be said ever, by anyone, that this is not transparent:

Recovery.gov

Secondly, another analogy. Speed is of utmost importance in the restaurant industry. You know what I did when I took over a mess? I told everyone to slow down. Slow down, focus on quality and doing it right. Relax. The burden is mine as the general manager. All you have to do is that one thing in front of you and do it perfectly. Then build the speed up. How did this translate initially? Slow service and lots of freebies and discounts to customers. BUT top notch product to compensate. A word or two to the customer, explaining that I just took over and am dedicated to their satisfaction, a constant raising of the bar...you get the point. But six months later, the promise of fast, courteous quality is met - and then some.

So yes, Obama has to spend, he has had to appoint committees and form structure in order to get the job done. But his ultimate goal, the end game, will be the dismantling of all of these committees and a paying back of the debt, a healthcare system that meets the problem at the root instead of spending outrageously down the road, new energy sources that cut our costs of foreign oil, a surplus in the budget - and then some, etc.
I'll look at the link you posted on Sunday...but there is no way the debt he is imposing on us can ever be repaid! He is killing the economy while at the same time spending money too fulfill his vision of America. This is the tip of the ice burg.

I appreciate your views, even though I don't agree with them. I don't usually come here other then to talk about our dogs. I'll check that link out tomorrow.
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post #381 of 6919 (permalink) Old 02-28-2009, 11:07 PM
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A 40-Year Wish List - WSJ.com

We've looked it over, and even we can't quite believe it. There's $1 billion for Amtrak, the federal railroad that hasn't turned a profit in 40 years; $2 billion for child-care subsidies; $50 million for that great engine of job creation, the National Endowment for the Arts; $400 million for global-warming research and another $2.4 billion for carbon-capture demonstration projects. There's even $650 million on top of the billions already doled out to pay for digital TV conversion coupons.

Some $30 billion, or less than 5% of the spending in the bill, is for fixing bridges or other highway projects. There's another $40 billion for broadband and electric grid development, airports and clean water projects that are arguably worthwhile priorities.

Most of the rest of this project spending will go to such things as renewable energy funding ($8 billion) or mass transit ($6 billion) that have a low or negative return on investment. Most urban transit systems are so badly managed that their fares cover less than half of their costs. However, the people who operate these systems belong to public-employee unions that are campaign contributors to . . . guess which party?

Here's another lu-lu: Congress wants to spend $600 million more for the federal government to buy new cars. Uncle Sam already spends $3 billion a year on its fleet of 600,000 vehicles. Congress also wants to spend $7 billion for modernizing federal buildings and facilities. The Smithsonian is targeted to receive $150 million; we love the Smithsonian, too, but this is a job creator?

As for the promise of accountability, some $54 billion will go to federal programs that the Office of Management and Budget or the Government Accountability Office have already criticized as "ineffective" or unable to pass basic financial audits. These include the Economic Development Administration, the Small Business Administration, the 10 federal job training programs, and many more.

This is supposed to be a new era of bipartisanship, but this bill was written based on the wish list of every living -- or dead -- Democratic interest group. As Speaker Nancy Pelosi put it, "We won the election. We wrote the bill." So they did. Republicans should let them take all of the credit.
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post #382 of 6919 (permalink) Old 02-28-2009, 11:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by clipclop View Post
Here you go

Finding the Pork in the Obama Stimulus Bill - US News and World Report

1) Green golf carts. Ever rode a "neighborhood electric vehicle?" Well, you might want to now. The stimulus includes a tax credit toward the purchase of NEVs, which closely resemble golf carts in appearance. They are considered green vehicles because they use an electric battery instead of gasoline. You fill it up with juice by plugging it into a home electrical outlet. Don't expect to be able to take your NEV far outside of your neighborhood, though. Federal regulations limit their top speed to between 20 and 25 miles per hour. Freeway cruising is out.

2) Closing the ice-breaking gap. The U.S. Coast Guard is getting a shot in the arm from the stimulus, thanks to $98 million for a "polar icebreaker." That's not a new gum flavor, but a ship. The service currently has three ice-breaking ships able to sail through the frozen Arctic Ocean, but it wants a new and improved one to upgrade the aging fleet. Thad Allen, commandant of the Coast Guard, testified before a House panel last summer that icebreakers are needed for national security reasons. "Russia, Germany, China, Sweden and Canada are all investing and maintaining and expanding their national ice-breaking capacity," he said.

3) Homeland security stimulus. That pricey icebreaker is just one of several examples of homeland and national security spending contained in the stimulus not directly connected to restoration of the economy. There is also $200 million to "design and furnish" the Department of Homeland Security headquarters. De Rugy says that security spending should be considered by Congress in bills related to security, not the economy. "There was no debating these things on the merits," she says.

4) Clean Coal. While Obama has stressed the number of "green jobs" his stimulus will create, $3.4 billion of the $787 billion will be spent on old-school, non-green energy technology. That's how much goes to the Fossil Energy Research and Development program, a Department of Energy project that, among other things, seeks to reduce the amount of carbon emitted by the use of fossil fuels. Daniel Weiss, a senior fellow and director of climate strategy at the Center for American Progress, says that most of this money will go toward the development of clean-coal technology. "The goal is to develop a technology that can capture carbon dioxide from coal in a coal-fired power plant," he says. And where's the stimulus in clean coal? Weiss says that we won't see the results of this investment anytime soon, and $3.4 billion is probably only a fraction of what is needed for real clean-coal technology to ever be achieved. But, he adds, in the short term, "this would create research jobs and jobs at power plants." That isn't stopping critics from calling this fossil energy provision pork.

5) Mystery Meat. It's hard to know just how much pork there is in the stimulus package for one simple reason: We still don't know how exactly a huge chunk of it will be spent. A whopping $144 billion from the bill is flowing directly to state and local governments. That means the true amount of pork will depend on the priorities of your governors, legislatures, and mayors. The best guesses for what this money will be spent on might be in a list of "ready-to-go" projects released by the U.S. Conference of Mayors in January, dubbed the "Main Street Economic Recovery." Some of the most outlandish of these projects -- such as an $886,000 36-hole disc golf course in Austin, Texas -- won't be allowed to receive stimulus dollars because the bill explicitly says that none of its funds can be used for "any casino or other gambling establishment, aquarium, zoo, golf course, or swimming pool."
Okay, thank you for posting this but this is not a "source". I want to see where it is listed, as its listed and the reasons for it, from the source, not someone talking about it once or twice removed. We all know how much can be "lost in translation"...I dont want any distortion. Certainly there are many more facts involved here than are being represented. How much is the cost of maintaining this aging fleet for example, as compared to just buying a new vessel?
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post #383 of 6919 (permalink) Old 02-28-2009, 11:16 PM
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the bill itself wont give you the reasons behind it.
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post #384 of 6919 (permalink) Old 02-28-2009, 11:17 PM
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By the way, this is what I meant by "keeping up". First of all, when you post a whole series of things like this I am not going to take it for face value. I have to go research individual details to get to the bottom of it and get the full details to assess.

You just posted to lengthy things that would take me many hours to sift through and find out what is REALLY happening - whether the information represented is accurate or not.

So - if you could give me smaller chunks and try to get closer to a source or at least let me know where to look, then I can have a sufficient chance to look into it. As it stands, you and DR and Melbrod posted so much stuff in one day that I dont have any reasonable hope of digging that deep on that much info. And again, I am not going to take something at face value, and neither should you or anyone else.
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post #385 of 6919 (permalink) Old 02-28-2009, 11:19 PM
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the bill itself wont give you the reasons behind it.
Yes but seeing the bill as it is, where it is and in what context I can then move outwards from there. I dont want to start at a secondary source that is either praising or bashing the bill. I want to be objective and viewing it through someone else's lens is not the way to start that process.
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post #386 of 6919 (permalink) Old 02-28-2009, 11:37 PM
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Here you go

Finding the Pork in the Obama Stimulus Bill - US News and World Report

1) Green golf carts. Ever rode a "neighborhood electric vehicle?" Well, you might want to now. The stimulus includes a tax credit toward the purchase of NEVs, which closely resemble golf carts in appearance. They are considered green vehicles because they use an electric battery instead of gasoline. You fill it up with juice by plugging it into a home electrical outlet. Don't expect to be able to take your NEV far outside of your neighborhood, though. Federal regulations limit their top speed to between 20 and 25 miles per hour. Freeway cruising is out.

2) Closing the ice-breaking gap. The U.S. Coast Guard is getting a shot in the arm from the stimulus, thanks to $98 million for a "polar icebreaker." That's not a new gum flavor, but a ship. The service currently has three ice-breaking ships able to sail through the frozen Arctic Ocean, but it wants a new and improved one to upgrade the aging fleet. Thad Allen, commandant of the Coast Guard, testified before a House panel last summer that icebreakers are needed for national security reasons. "Russia, Germany, China, Sweden and Canada are all investing and maintaining and expanding their national ice-breaking capacity," he said.

3) Homeland security stimulus. That pricey icebreaker is just one of several examples of homeland and national security spending contained in the stimulus not directly connected to restoration of the economy. There is also $200 million to "design and furnish" the Department of Homeland Security headquarters. De Rugy says that security spending should be considered by Congress in bills related to security, not the economy. "There was no debating these things on the merits," she says.

4) Clean Coal. While Obama has stressed the number of "green jobs" his stimulus will create, $3.4 billion of the $787 billion will be spent on old-school, non-green energy technology. That's how much goes to the Fossil Energy Research and Development program, a Department of Energy project that, among other things, seeks to reduce the amount of carbon emitted by the use of fossil fuels. Daniel Weiss, a senior fellow and director of climate strategy at the Center for American Progress, says that most of this money will go toward the development of clean-coal technology. "The goal is to develop a technology that can capture carbon dioxide from coal in a coal-fired power plant," he says. And where's the stimulus in clean coal? Weiss says that we won't see the results of this investment anytime soon, and $3.4 billion is probably only a fraction of what is needed for real clean-coal technology to ever be achieved. But, he adds, in the short term, "this would create research jobs and jobs at power plants." That isn't stopping critics from calling this fossil energy provision pork.

5) Mystery Meat. It's hard to know just how much pork there is in the stimulus package for one simple reason: We still don't know how exactly a huge chunk of it will be spent. A whopping $144 billion from the bill is flowing directly to state and local governments. That means the true amount of pork will depend on the priorities of your governors, legislatures, and mayors. The best guesses for what this money will be spent on might be in a list of "ready-to-go" projects released by the U.S. Conference of Mayors in January, dubbed the "Main Street Economic Recovery." Some of the most outlandish of these projects -- such as an $886,000 36-hole disc golf course in Austin, Texas -- won't be allowed to receive stimulus dollars because the bill explicitly says that none of its funds can be used for "any casino or other gambling establishment, aquarium, zoo, golf course, or swimming pool."
OHH Clipclop it goes so much deeper than this...thank's for a quick link...good stuff. I really need to get some sleep so I'm only going to address #4 He isn't just investing in cleaning up coal powered plants, he is actually going too fine them and make them comply with "The clean air act". Not a bad idea but also not realistic. I'm not sure of the exact date that these plants need to comply by, but once again, he will invest a minimal amount of money to correct an industry "problem" while at the same time requiring them too comply. I wonder who will pay the higher rates needed to cover the operating costs of these plants? The government can't so I guess we will.
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post #387 of 6919 (permalink) Old 03-01-2009, 12:00 AM
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Avalon....what can I say? Who do you think created that site? Transparency? Where?
Again I respect your opinion, I just don't agree with it.

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post #388 of 6919 (permalink) Old 03-01-2009, 05:35 PM Thread Starter
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here's a link to the Act itself. Good luck wallowing through it. You will understand why no one, even the signers, read this crap.. I did find the electric vehicle credit provisions.
http://frwebgate.access.gpo.gov/cgi-...id=f:h1enr.pdf
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post #389 of 6919 (permalink) Old 03-01-2009, 06:06 PM
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Thank you for posting the link, yet my crappy old Mac won't open it..I'll check it out with the PC on Monday.

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you all probably know this, but when legislation is in the house/senate - if you know the bill number - you can go online and see the actual raw legislation. Once passed by house and senate, and signed by pres, it becomes an Act, which again you can access online. When I worked for the EPA, we used to get 'digest' versions of bills/Acts because they are so hard to read - a paid subscription service that 'interprets' them and puts into summarized language. Same when I was in environmental consulting. We paid for translation services.. so that's where you likely get the internet digest versions - someone has access to one of these type translations. You just have to trust them, either that, or read the Act yourself and trust yourself to translate it properly, which is nearly impossible as you will see if you try and read the Reinvestment Recovery Act link I posted.
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post #391 of 6919 (permalink) Old 03-02-2009, 08:14 AM
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just a reminder about Obama's honesty and campaign promises

WASHINGTON – President Barack Obama will break a campaign pledge against congressional earmarks and sign a budget bill laden with millions in lawmakers' pet projects, administration officials said.

Administration budget chief Peter Orszag and White House chief of staff Rahm Emanuel both downplayed the $410 billion spending bill and signaled Obama would hold his nose and sign it.

I ask this: at what point will Obama supporters get tired of his backtracking on campaign promises? Yes, I know, politicians lie. But supporters of Obama have been chugging the kool-aid since day one...when does that kool-aid stop tasting so good?
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post #392 of 6919 (permalink) Old 03-02-2009, 09:42 AM
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Interesting bit of thought here... from a philosophical point of view...

What's the longest war in American history? Did somebody say the war on poverty? Smart group. War on poverty. The war on poverty essentially started in the '30s as part of the New Deal, but it really ramped up in the '60s with Lyndon Johnson, part of the Great Society war on poverty. We have transferred something like 10 trillion, maybe close to 11 trillion, from producers and earners to nonproducers and nonearners since 1965. Yet, as I listen to the Democratic Party campaign, why, America is still a soup kitchen, the poor is still poor and they have no hope and they're poor for what reason? They're poor because of us, because we don't care, and because we've gotten rich by taking from them, that's what kids in school are taught today. That's what others have said to the media. You know why they're poor, you know why they remain poor? Because their lives have been destroyed by the never-ending government hay that's designed to help them, but it destroys ambition. It destroys the education they might get to learn to be self-fulfilling. And it breaks our heart. It breaks our heart. We lose track of numbers with all of the money, with all the money that's been transferred, redistributed, with all the charitable giving in this country
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post #393 of 6919 (permalink) Old 03-02-2009, 10:42 AM
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I have always felt that the Democratic Party keeps people in a form of slavery by "enabling" them to rely on social programs rather than forcing them to fend for themselves...and, no, I am not talking about color here...I am talking about a culture of poverty that is reinforced by giving to people rather than teaching them about independence


“Give a man a fish; you have fed him for today. Teach a man to fish; and you have fed him for a lifetime”
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post #394 of 6919 (permalink) Old 03-02-2009, 10:47 AM
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Novadobe- thats probably one of the BIGGEST foundations on the difference between democrats and republicans on a pure party affilication basis. I couldnt agree with you MORE!!!

Thats one of the reasons I posted that bit of script above. I mean honestly- we need to ask ourselves. Are poor people really better off? Are our programs really serving the purpose intended? My admin has a cousin that has 4 kids- lives in a nice house paid for by the gov (not a crappy sec 8 apt either!) an actual nice 2000 sqft house! ... and doesnt work. She just collects her checks like her mother did before her... and when her kids are grown ... and one of them is on welfare... she just plans to move in with them.

You can look at it and say this is a one off case- I say NO IT IS NOT!!!! Help is THERE for people that really need it- and if we did a better job of giving help with accountability vs just blindly giving all of the time- the folks that REALLY needed help... would get MUCH better QUALITY help and more money.
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post #395 of 6919 (permalink) Old 03-02-2009, 10:56 AM Thread Starter
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Interesting bit of thought here... from a philosophical point of view...

What's the longest war in American history? Did somebody say the war on poverty? Smart group. War on poverty. The war on poverty essentially started in the '30s as part of the New Deal, but it really ramped up in the '60s with Lyndon Johnson, part of the Great Society war on poverty. We have transferred something like 10 trillion, maybe close to 11 trillion, from producers and earners to nonproducers and nonearners since 1965. Yet, as I listen to the Democratic Party campaign, why, America is still a soup kitchen, the poor is still poor and they have no hope and they're poor for what reason? They're poor because of us, because we don't care, and because we've gotten rich by taking from them, that's what kids in school are taught today. That's what others have said to the media. You know why they're poor, you know why they remain poor? Because their lives have been destroyed by the never-ending government hay that's designed to help them, but it destroys ambition. It destroys the education they might get to learn to be self-fulfilling. And it breaks our heart. It breaks our heart. We lose track of numbers with all of the money, with all the money that's been transferred, redistributed, with all the charitable giving in this country
I listened to the CPAC speakers - someone mentioned this factoid, among many others.

Insanity = doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.
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post #396 of 6919 (permalink) Old 03-02-2009, 01:14 PM
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One problem is that the Dems foster poverty in one way, and Repubs in a completely different way. There are other options, other ideas, other possibilities. I am so frustrated by how polarized and contentious our people have all become. It's an enormous pissing contest, and has VERY little to do with the actual condition of the people who live here, or the businesses that are trying to make it here. And what ever happened to our open and varied society - there used to be Dems, GOP, Independent, Libertarian, Liberal (yes, at one time it was a party), Progressive, Green, Socialist, Communist, Conservative, and many other parties, as well. Now, the politicians don't even pretend to be inclusive anymore - they say, flat out, "whether you are a Republican or a Democrat, ...blah, blah, blah...." - and never even bother to add even the more vocal and larger "fringe" groups like the Independents and Libertarians. What's that about?
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post #397 of 6919 (permalink) Old 03-02-2009, 02:16 PM
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Spent a couple hours last night combing through and researching the stimulus. So far, it looks like a huge amount of pet projects are packed in with the stuff that matters. Its pretty hard to find favorable articles about it either. Spent a lot of time on Real Clear Politics, Markets and World.

Im not really excited about some of it although It looks like they just put together the stimulus and then tacked on all the other stuff in order to avoid having to go through a long drawn out process to get separate bills passed over time.

Or maybe Im stating the obvious?
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post #398 of 6919 (permalink) Old 03-02-2009, 02:23 PM
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Av- good job. Not that you are stating the obvious- you just wanted to make sure you got the facts on your own. Now you have them... you can see the points that lots of us have been making.

You can see for yourself the direct contradictions between what Obama said he would do and what he was doing. I remember Obama debating McCain saying that he would use his line item veto power as president. He would go through any bill with a Scalpel vs. McCain's Hatchet- he would do the same for evaluating governmental programs. Where is the Scalpel? Do you see it? I do not. I'm not trying to be difficult... look this is my 401k taking a plunge- its done terrible under Obama's leadership. Worse than even under Bush's... the Market doesnt like this massive spending and debt. It didnt like it when Bush did it- and doesnt like it when Obama is tripling it.
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post #399 of 6919 (permalink) Old 03-02-2009, 02:32 PM
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Av- good job. Not that you are stating the obvious- you just wanted to make sure you got the facts on your own. Now you have them... you can see the points that lots of us have been making.

You can see for yourself the direct contradictions between what Obama said he would do and what he was doing. I remember Obama debating McCain saying that he would use his line item veto power as president. He would go through any bill with a Scalpel vs. McCain's Hatchet- he would do the same for evaluating governmental programs. Where is the Scalpel? Do you see it? I do not. I'm not trying to be difficult... look this is my 401k taking a plunge- its done terrible under Obama's leadership. Worse than even under Bush's... the Market doesnt like this massive spending and debt. It didnt like it when Bush did it- and doesnt like it when Obama is tripling it.
Well I dont think he lied about the scalpel, its just a matter of what he felt needed cutting obviously differs from others' opinions. I dont doubt one bit that he and his people went through this extremely carefully.

I would like to have some explanations about a lot of it though. I don't see "emergency" written on much of this.
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post #400 of 6919 (permalink) Old 03-02-2009, 02:48 PM
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Well that was my point- that there was no scalpel applied. He didnt veto any of this- the scapel happens when congress puts together legeslation and its then sent to the office of the president to sign. The president then takes out the "scalpel" and goes to work. This hasnt happened. So his people could have looked at this 'carefully' and turned a blind eye. Which in my eyes is just as bad. I remember a while ago- during the election stating that I had never seen one instance where Obama had to make hard decisions and go against his party. He didnt have a track record for doing that. For better or worse, McCain had done that. I have no doubt that this same bill going to him would look a LOT different once it would have been on McCains desk. Bush would have signed this just as readily as Obama did.

Guess what- you wont get any explainations- this "transparency" that is unpresedented- is a mirage. They can tell you where the money is going but not have to tell you WHY. What good is it to know that millions are going to finding out why certain rats are stinky? Is that going to generate 1 single job? is it going to turn this economic mess around? If the answer is NO it needs to just NOT happen right now. Everything has its time... this isnt a time for any non-emergency funding!
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