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post #276 of 6919 (permalink) Old 02-27-2009, 11:08 AM
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an interesting read...not new but rings true:

The democracy will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not. Thomas Jefferson


"To All My Valued Employees,

There have been some rumblings around the office about the future of this company, and more specifically, your job. As you know, the economy has changed for the worse and presents many challenges. However, the good news is this: The economy doesnít pose a threat to your job. What does threaten your job however, is the changing political landscape in this country.

However, let me tell you some little tidbits of fact which might help you decide what is in your best interests.

First, while it is easy to spew rhetoric that casts employers against employees, you have to understand that for every business owner there is aBack Story. This back story is often neglected and overshadowed by what you see and hear. Sure, you see me park my Mercedes outside. Youíve seen my big home at last years Christmas party. Iím sure; all these flashy icons of luxury conjure up some idealized thoughts about my life.

However, what you donít see is the BACK STORY:

I started this company 28 years ago. At that time, I lived in a 300 square foot studio apartment for 3 years. My entire living apartment was converted into an office so I could put forth 100% effort into building a company, which by the way, would eventually employ you.

My diet consisted of Ramen Pride noodles because every dollar I spent went back into this company. I drove a rusty Toyota Corolla with a defective transmission. I didnít have time to date. Often times, I stayed home on weekends, while my friends went out drinking and partying. In fact, I was married to my business ó hard work, discipline, and sacrifice.

Meanwhile, my friends got jobs. They worked 40 hours a week and made a modest $50K a year and spent every dime they earned. They drove flashy cars and lived in expensive homes and wore fancy designer clothes. Instead of hitting the Nordstromís for the latest hot fashion item, I was trolling through the discount store extracting any clothing item that didnít look like it was birthed in the 70ís. My friends refinanced their mortgages and lived a life of luxury. I, however, did not. I put my time, my money, and my life into a business with a vision that eventually, some day, I too, will be able to afford these luxuries my friends supposedly had.

So, while you physically arrive at the office at 9am, mentally check in at about noon, and then leave at 5pm, I donít. There is no ďoffĒ button for me. When you leave the office, you are done and you have a weekend all to yourself. I unfortunately do not have the freedom. I eat, and breathe this company every minute of the day. There is no rest. There is no weekend. There is no happy hour. Every day this business is attached to my hip like a 1 year old special-needs child. You, of course, only see the fruits of that garden ó the nice house, the Mercedes, the vacationsÖ you never realize the Back Story and the sacrifices Iíve made.

Now, the economy is falling apart and I, the guy that made all the right decisions and saved his money, have to bail-out all the people who didnít. The people that overspent their paychecks suddenly feel entitled to the same luxuries that I earned and sacrificed a decade of my life for.

Yes, business ownership has is benefits but the price Iíve paid is steep and not without wounds.

Unfortunately, the cost of running this business, and employing you, is starting to eclipse the threshold of marginal benefit and let me tell you why:

I am being taxed to death and the government thinks I donít pay enough. I have state taxes. Federal taxes. Property taxes. Sales and use taxes. Payroll taxes. Workers compensation taxes. Unemployment taxes. Taxes on taxes. I have to hire a tax man to manage all these taxes and then guess what? I have to pay taxes for employing him. Government mandates and regulations and all the accounting that goes with it, now occupy most of my time. On Oct 15th, I wrote a check to the US Treasury for $288,000 for quarterly taxes. You know what my ďstimulusĒ check was? Zero.. Nada. Zilch.

The question I have is this: Who is stimulating the economy? Me, the guy who has provided 14 people good paying jobs and serves over 2,200,000 people per year with a flourishing business? Or, the single mother sitting at home pregnant with her fourth child waiting for her next welfare check? Obviously, government feels the latter is the economic stimulus of this country.

The fact is, if I deducted (Read: Stole) 50% of your paycheck youíd quit and you wouldnít work here. I mean, why should you? Thatís nuts. Who wants to get rewarded only 50% of their hard work? Well, I agree which is why your job is in jeopardy.

Here is what many of you donít understand Ö to stimulate the economy you need to stimulate what runs the economy. Had suddenly government mandated to me that I didnít need to pay taxes, guess what? Instead of depositing that $288,000 into the Washington black-hole, I would have spent it, hired more employees, and generated substantial economic growth. My employees would have enjoyed the wealth of that tax cut in the form of promotions and better salaries. But you can forget it now.

When you have a comatose man on the verge of death, you donít defibrillate and shock his thumb thinking that will bring him back to life, do you? Or, do you defibrillate his heart? Business is at the heart of America and always has been. To restart it, you must stimulate it, not kill it. Suddenly, the power brokers in Washington believe the poor of America are the essential drivers of the American economic engine. Nothing could be further from the truth and this is the type of change you can keep.

So where am I going with all this?

Itís quite simple.

If any new taxes are levied on me, or my company, my reaction will be swift and simple. I fire you. I fire your co-workers. You can then plead with the government to pay for your mortgage, your SUV, and your childís future. Frankly, it isnít my problem any more.

Then, I will close this company down, move to another country, and retire. You see, Iím done. Iím done with a country that penalizes the productive and gives to the unproductive. My motivation to work and to provide jobs will be destroyed, and with it, will be my citizenship.

So, if you lose your job, it wonít be at the hands of the economy; it will be at the hands of a political hurricane that swept through this country, steamrolled the constitution, and will have changed its landscape forever. If that happens, you can find me sitting on a beach, retired, and with no employees to worry aboutÖ.

Signed, THE BOSS"
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post #277 of 6919 (permalink) Old 02-27-2009, 11:13 AM Thread Starter
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an interesting read...not new but rings true:

The democracy will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not. Thomas Jefferson


"To All My Valued Employees,

There have been some rumblings around the office about the future of this company, and more specifically, your job. As you know, the economy has changed for the worse and presents many challenges. However, the good news is this: The economy doesnít pose a threat to your job. What does threaten your job however, is the changing political landscape in this country.

However, let me tell you some little tidbits of fact which might help you decide what is in your best interests.

First, while it is easy to spew rhetoric that casts employers against employees, you have to understand that for every business owner there is aBack Story. This back story is often neglected and overshadowed by what you see and hear. Sure, you see me park my Mercedes outside. Youíve seen my big home at last years Christmas party. Iím sure; all these flashy icons of luxury conjure up some idealized thoughts about my life.

However, what you donít see is the BACK STORY:

I started this company 28 years ago. At that time, I lived in a 300 square foot studio apartment for 3 years. My entire living apartment was converted into an office so I could put forth 100% effort into building a company, which by the way, would eventually employ you.

My diet consisted of Ramen Pride noodles because every dollar I spent went back into this company. I drove a rusty Toyota Corolla with a defective transmission. I didnít have time to date. Often times, I stayed home on weekends, while my friends went out drinking and partying. In fact, I was married to my business ó hard work, discipline, and sacrifice.

Meanwhile, my friends got jobs. They worked 40 hours a week and made a modest $50K a year and spent every dime they earned. They drove flashy cars and lived in expensive homes and wore fancy designer clothes. Instead of hitting the Nordstromís for the latest hot fashion item, I was trolling through the discount store extracting any clothing item that didnít look like it was birthed in the 70ís. My friends refinanced their mortgages and lived a life of luxury. I, however, did not. I put my time, my money, and my life into a business with a vision that eventually, some day, I too, will be able to afford these luxuries my friends supposedly had.

So, while you physically arrive at the office at 9am, mentally check in at about noon, and then leave at 5pm, I donít. There is no ďoffĒ button for me. When you leave the office, you are done and you have a weekend all to yourself. I unfortunately do not have the freedom. I eat, and breathe this company every minute of the day. There is no rest. There is no weekend. There is no happy hour. Every day this business is attached to my hip like a 1 year old special-needs child. You, of course, only see the fruits of that garden ó the nice house, the Mercedes, the vacationsÖ you never realize the Back Story and the sacrifices Iíve made.

Now, the economy is falling apart and I, the guy that made all the right decisions and saved his money, have to bail-out all the people who didnít. The people that overspent their paychecks suddenly feel entitled to the same luxuries that I earned and sacrificed a decade of my life for.

Yes, business ownership has is benefits but the price Iíve paid is steep and not without wounds.

Unfortunately, the cost of running this business, and employing you, is starting to eclipse the threshold of marginal benefit and let me tell you why:

I am being taxed to death and the government thinks I donít pay enough. I have state taxes. Federal taxes. Property taxes. Sales and use taxes. Payroll taxes. Workers compensation taxes. Unemployment taxes. Taxes on taxes. I have to hire a tax man to manage all these taxes and then guess what? I have to pay taxes for employing him. Government mandates and regulations and all the accounting that goes with it, now occupy most of my time. On Oct 15th, I wrote a check to the US Treasury for $288,000 for quarterly taxes. You know what my ďstimulusĒ check was? Zero.. Nada. Zilch.

The question I have is this: Who is stimulating the economy? Me, the guy who has provided 14 people good paying jobs and serves over 2,200,000 people per year with a flourishing business? Or, the single mother sitting at home pregnant with her fourth child waiting for her next welfare check? Obviously, government feels the latter is the economic stimulus of this country.

The fact is, if I deducted (Read: Stole) 50% of your paycheck youíd quit and you wouldnít work here. I mean, why should you? Thatís nuts. Who wants to get rewarded only 50% of their hard work? Well, I agree which is why your job is in jeopardy.

Here is what many of you donít understand Ö to stimulate the economy you need to stimulate what runs the economy. Had suddenly government mandated to me that I didnít need to pay taxes, guess what? Instead of depositing that $288,000 into the Washington black-hole, I would have spent it, hired more employees, and generated substantial economic growth. My employees would have enjoyed the wealth of that tax cut in the form of promotions and better salaries. But you can forget it now.

When you have a comatose man on the verge of death, you donít defibrillate and shock his thumb thinking that will bring him back to life, do you? Or, do you defibrillate his heart? Business is at the heart of America and always has been. To restart it, you must stimulate it, not kill it. Suddenly, the power brokers in Washington believe the poor of America are the essential drivers of the American economic engine. Nothing could be further from the truth and this is the type of change you can keep.

So where am I going with all this?

Itís quite simple.

If any new taxes are levied on me, or my company, my reaction will be swift and simple. I fire you. I fire your co-workers. You can then plead with the government to pay for your mortgage, your SUV, and your childís future. Frankly, it isnít my problem any more.

Then, I will close this company down, move to another country, and retire. You see, Iím done. Iím done with a country that penalizes the productive and gives to the unproductive. My motivation to work and to provide jobs will be destroyed, and with it, will be my citizenship.

So, if you lose your job, it wonít be at the hands of the economy; it will be at the hands of a political hurricane that swept through this country, steamrolled the constitution, and will have changed its landscape forever. If that happens, you can find me sitting on a beach, retired, and with no employees to worry aboutÖ.

Signed, THE BOSS"


hey, one day we'll all work for government anyway.
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post #278 of 6919 (permalink) Old 02-27-2009, 11:17 AM
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hey, one day we'll all work for government anyway.
about 40% of my income already does...I don't have kids (so no school costs for me)...I don't really use any services other than basic govt admin(waste), shoddy road repairs, police, and fire protection...instead, my taxes finance the other people and their needs...it may sound selfish...but it's true...my input into the system far outweighs what I get back from it
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post #279 of 6919 (permalink) Old 02-27-2009, 11:27 AM
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Originally Posted by nova_dobie View Post
an interesting read...not new but rings true:

The democracy will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not. Thomas Jefferson


"To All My Valued Employees,

There have been some rumblings around the office about the future of this company, and more specifically, your job. As you know, the economy has changed for the worse and presents many challenges. However, the good news is this: The economy doesnít pose a threat to your job. What does threaten your job however, is the changing political landscape in this country.

However, let me tell you some little tidbits of fact which might help you decide what is in your best interests.

First, while it is easy to spew rhetoric that casts employers against employees, you have to understand that for every business owner there is aBack Story. This back story is often neglected and overshadowed by what you see and hear. Sure, you see me park my Mercedes outside. Youíve seen my big home at last years Christmas party. Iím sure; all these flashy icons of luxury conjure up some idealized thoughts about my life.

However, what you donít see is the BACK STORY:

I started this company 28 years ago. At that time, I lived in a 300 square foot studio apartment for 3 years. My entire living apartment was converted into an office so I could put forth 100% effort into building a company, which by the way, would eventually employ you.

My diet consisted of Ramen Pride noodles because every dollar I spent went back into this company. I drove a rusty Toyota Corolla with a defective transmission. I didnít have time to date. Often times, I stayed home on weekends, while my friends went out drinking and partying. In fact, I was married to my business ó hard work, discipline, and sacrifice.

Meanwhile, my friends got jobs. They worked 40 hours a week and made a modest $50K a year and spent every dime they earned. They drove flashy cars and lived in expensive homes and wore fancy designer clothes. Instead of hitting the Nordstromís for the latest hot fashion item, I was trolling through the discount store extracting any clothing item that didnít look like it was birthed in the 70ís. My friends refinanced their mortgages and lived a life of luxury. I, however, did not. I put my time, my money, and my life into a business with a vision that eventually, some day, I too, will be able to afford these luxuries my friends supposedly had.

So, while you physically arrive at the office at 9am, mentally check in at about noon, and then leave at 5pm, I donít. There is no ďoffĒ button for me. When you leave the office, you are done and you have a weekend all to yourself. I unfortunately do not have the freedom. I eat, and breathe this company every minute of the day. There is no rest. There is no weekend. There is no happy hour. Every day this business is attached to my hip like a 1 year old special-needs child. You, of course, only see the fruits of that garden ó the nice house, the Mercedes, the vacationsÖ you never realize the Back Story and the sacrifices Iíve made.

Now, the economy is falling apart and I, the guy that made all the right decisions and saved his money, have to bail-out all the people who didnít. The people that overspent their paychecks suddenly feel entitled to the same luxuries that I earned and sacrificed a decade of my life for.

Yes, business ownership has is benefits but the price Iíve paid is steep and not without wounds.

Unfortunately, the cost of running this business, and employing you, is starting to eclipse the threshold of marginal benefit and let me tell you why:

I am being taxed to death and the government thinks I donít pay enough. I have state taxes. Federal taxes. Property taxes. Sales and use taxes. Payroll taxes. Workers compensation taxes. Unemployment taxes. Taxes on taxes. I have to hire a tax man to manage all these taxes and then guess what? I have to pay taxes for employing him. Government mandates and regulations and all the accounting that goes with it, now occupy most of my time. On Oct 15th, I wrote a check to the US Treasury for $288,000 for quarterly taxes. You know what my ďstimulusĒ check was? Zero.. Nada. Zilch.

The question I have is this: Who is stimulating the economy? Me, the guy who has provided 14 people good paying jobs and serves over 2,200,000 people per year with a flourishing business? Or, the single mother sitting at home pregnant with her fourth child waiting for her next welfare check? Obviously, government feels the latter is the economic stimulus of this country.

The fact is, if I deducted (Read: Stole) 50% of your paycheck youíd quit and you wouldnít work here. I mean, why should you? Thatís nuts. Who wants to get rewarded only 50% of their hard work? Well, I agree which is why your job is in jeopardy.

Here is what many of you donít understand Ö to stimulate the economy you need to stimulate what runs the economy. Had suddenly government mandated to me that I didnít need to pay taxes, guess what? Instead of depositing that $288,000 into the Washington black-hole, I would have spent it, hired more employees, and generated substantial economic growth. My employees would have enjoyed the wealth of that tax cut in the form of promotions and better salaries. But you can forget it now.

When you have a comatose man on the verge of death, you donít defibrillate and shock his thumb thinking that will bring him back to life, do you? Or, do you defibrillate his heart? Business is at the heart of America and always has been. To restart it, you must stimulate it, not kill it. Suddenly, the power brokers in Washington believe the poor of America are the essential drivers of the American economic engine. Nothing could be further from the truth and this is the type of change you can keep.

So where am I going with all this?

Itís quite simple.

If any new taxes are levied on me, or my company, my reaction will be swift and simple. I fire you. I fire your co-workers. You can then plead with the government to pay for your mortgage, your SUV, and your childís future. Frankly, it isnít my problem any more.

Then, I will close this company down, move to another country, and retire. You see, Iím done. Iím done with a country that penalizes the productive and gives to the unproductive. My motivation to work and to provide jobs will be destroyed, and with it, will be my citizenship.

So, if you lose your job, it wonít be at the hands of the economy; it will be at the hands of a political hurricane that swept through this country, steamrolled the constitution, and will have changed its landscape forever. If that happens, you can find me sitting on a beach, retired, and with no employees to worry aboutÖ.

Signed, THE BOSS"
this is so real and soo true. im such a small example of this... i have a housekeeper that comes once a week.. a guy that takes care of the lawn. They're self employed people that I help make it... guess what... while you might say... you dont need it, its a luxury.. what do you prefer? Me letting them go so i can pay my tax bill and now they're feeling the pinch and need to rely on the govt? or keeping my taxes low so I can employ them? I'd like to hear from av , rfr, and lois on this.

Trust me... this is real the govt is taking away incentive from those that can afford to hire people, pay for good and services that are provided by PEOPLE and saying to heck with it. Im not going to pay those hefty taxes AND keep paying for all that... im going to have to pay those taxes! i have no choice! but I can make a choice to cut out the small businesses that provide serives to me so that my own financial situation doesnt deteriorate further.
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post #280 of 6919 (permalink) Old 02-27-2009, 11:32 AM
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im going to have to pay those taxes! i have no choice! but I can make a choice to cut out the small businesses that provide serives to me so that my own financial situation doesnt deteriorate further.
IRS = Intentional Reaming System
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post #281 of 6919 (permalink) Old 02-27-2009, 11:33 AM Thread Starter
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this is so real and soo true. im such a small example of this... i have a housekeeper that comes once a week.. a guy that takes care of the lawn. They're self employed people that I help make it... guess what... while you might say... you dont need it, its a luxury.. what do you prefer? Me letting them go so i can pay my tax bill and now they're feeling the pinch and need to rely on the govt? or keeping my taxes low so I can employ them? I'd like to hear from av , rfr, and lois on this.

Trust me... this is real the govt is taking away incentive from those that can afford to hire people, pay for good and services that are provided by PEOPLE and saying to heck with it. Im not going to pay those hefty taxes AND keep paying for all that... im going to have to pay those taxes! i have no choice! but I can make a choice to cut out the small businesses that provide serives to me so that my own financial situation doesnt deteriorate further.
well, I'll put on the "progressive hat" I just ordered on eBay and see how it works...

so here goes...

... it is our social duty to tighten our belt and make a sacrifice to help those less fortunate than ourselves. So if we are still fortunate to (a) have a job, (b) are successful and still have money left over after paying our bills, then we should cut our own personal expenses like hanging new drapes to pretty up the house and instead give that money out to those in need....

so, there... how did I do?
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post #282 of 6919 (permalink) Old 02-27-2009, 11:39 AM
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well, I'll put on the "progressive hat" I just ordered on eBay and see how it works...

so here goes...

... it is our social duty to tighten our belt and make a sacrifice to help those less fortunate than ourselves. So if we are still fortunate to (a) have a job, (b) are successful and still have money left over after paying our bills, then we should cut our own personal expenses like hanging new drapes to pretty up the house and instead give that money out to those in need....

so, there... how did I do?
BBOOOOOOOOOHHHH!!!!!!! LOL just kidding of course

and is it the social duty for those we help to at least thank us? I donate clothes every year and I have no issue with charity....but FORCED charity where the government STEALS my money to hand out to people who don't know me or care about me? I will never agree with that
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post #283 of 6919 (permalink) Old 02-27-2009, 11:45 AM Thread Starter
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BBOOOOOOOOOHHHH!!!!!!! LOL just kidding of course

and is it the social duty for those we help to at least thank us? I donate clothes every year and I have no issue with charity....but FORCED charity where the government STEALS my money to hand out to people who don't know me or care about me? I will never agree with that
hey, here's charity liberal Democrat Politician style...

so I'm a liberal Democrat politician, upstanding liberal Democrat in my local community serving in a public elected role.. I'm walking downtown one day and come upon a bum begging beside the marble doorway of the big bank downtown. I stop. I am moved. I get on my soapbox being a local politician and all, and I make a passionate speech about poverty and the poor and the plight of this poor beggar sitting next to me. People have stopped and gathered 'round. To end my passionate speech and to lead by example - along comes a well dressed young professional about to turn into the bank doorway - I accost that individual and exert my authority as a respected commpassionate politician and I say "see this poor beggar by your door - here - give them some money out of your pocket - it's the least you can do", then I say to the crowd "see, we help the poor". Then I walk away feeling all good and warm inside

Last edited by dobermansrule; 02-27-2009 at 11:56 AM.
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post #284 of 6919 (permalink) Old 02-27-2009, 11:48 AM
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hey, here's charity liberal Democrat style...

so I'm a liberal Democrat, upstanding liberal Democrat in my local community serving in a public elected role.. I'm walking downtown one day and come upon a bum begging beside the marble doorway of the big bank downtown. I stop. I am moved. I get on my soapbox being a local politician and all, and I make a passionate speech about poverty and the poor and the plight of this poor beggar sitting next to me. People have stopped and gathered 'round. To end my passionate speech and to lead by example - along comes a well dressed young professional about to turn into the bank doorway - I accost that individual and exert my authority as a respected commpassionate politician and I say "see this poor beggar by your door - here - give them some money out of your pocket - it's the least you can do", then I say to the crowd "see, we help the poor". Then I walk away feeling all good and warm inside
so you mean you terrorized someone who was minding their own business and walked away feeling good about it....you sure you want to use that as the Liberal Democrat version of charity? LOL :biggrin55:
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post #285 of 6919 (permalink) Old 02-27-2009, 11:57 AM
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Very good posts. Not only will those companies close there doors they won't be hiring carpenters such as myself to attach a $ 75,000 glass sun room to their house or remodel the kitchen.
My situation is compounded by the fact that I live in Massachusetts I mean taxachusetts. I'm required to carry workmans comp even though I don't employ anyone, I use sub contractors. The policy doesn't cover me or anyone on the job site,It's just a "Fee" that I pay to AIG (didn't they get bailed out...Grrr) I carry full liability, pay through the nose in self employment taxes, on top of the regular federal and state taxes. When all is said and done close to 48% of my income is gone before I take care of a mortgage, property taxes, excise taxes....etc. We are now looking at a toll hike that will bring a $2 toll to $7 by July along with a possible 20 cent gas tax. All from Deval Patrick a friend of Obamas who shares his vision.

Obama is going to destroy the backbone of our country through his ridiculous spending packages and taxes. His tax break is nothing but a campaign promise I mean really, saving $10 dollars a week is going to help us out? His tax hike for those who make more than $200,000 is nothing short of Insane. (I've heard it called a 'Ponzi scheme) The money generated from that demographic wont come close to paying for his "Health Reform". I heard an economist say that you could raise the entire US populations taxes by the same rate and it still wouldn't be enough.
How people can listen to his lies is beyond me! "No earmarks" I think theres something like 8000 earmarks if I'm not mistaken.

My head is spinning...I'm going to take some Zanax and read the comics.

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post #286 of 6919 (permalink) Old 02-27-2009, 12:10 PM
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well, I'll put on the "progressive hat" I just ordered on eBay and see how it works...

so here goes...

... it is our social duty to tighten our belt and make a sacrifice to help those less fortunate than ourselves. So if we are still fortunate to (a) have a job, (b) are successful and still have money left over after paying our bills, then we should cut our own personal expenses like hanging new drapes to pretty up the house and instead give that money out to those in need....

so, there... how did I do?
He says we need too "Tighten our belts" yet 15 of his of his "Committees" are getting as much as a 48% wage increase. Thankfully he didn't give one to the justice department but I'm sure it's coming.
Edit: I just had a great idea! Maybe I could apply for a position as Overseer of the construction industry. I could have a few high payed people working under me and all I'd have to say is.."Mr President the construction industry is struggling, maybe we should give them the $37,000,000 that we were going to use to save a swamp rat? No ok I'll check in with you in a few days.

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post #287 of 6919 (permalink) Old 02-27-2009, 12:11 PM Thread Starter
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Very good posts. Not only will those companies close there doors they won't be hiring carpenters such as myself to attach a $ 75,000 glass sun room to their house or remodel the kitchen.
My situation is compounded by the fact that I live in Massachusetts I mean taxachusetts. I'm required to carry workmans comp even though I don't employ anyone, I use sub contractors. The policy doesn't cover me or anyone on the job site,It's just a "Fee" that I pay to AIG (didn't they get bailed out...Grrr) I carry full liability, pay through the nose in self employment taxes, on top of the regular federal and state taxes. When all is said and done close to 48% of my income is gone before I take care of a mortgage, property taxes, excise taxes....etc. We are now looking at a toll hike that will bring a $2 toll to $7 by July along with a possible 20 cent gas tax. All from Deval Patrick a friend of Obamas who shares his vision.

Obama is going to destroy the backbone of our country through his ridiculous spending packages and taxes. His tax break is nothing but a campaign promise I mean really, saving $10 dollars a week is going to help us out? His tax hike for those who make more than $200,000 is nothing short of Insane. (I've heard it called a 'Ponzi scheme) The money generated from that demographic wont come close to paying for his "Health Reform". I heard an economist say that you could raise the entire US populations taxes by the same rate and it still wouldn't be enough.
How people can listen to his lies is beyond me! "No earmarks" I think theres something like 8000 earmarks if I'm not mistaken.

My head is spinning...I'm going to take some Zanax and read the comics.
I don't see how you make it up there in NewTaxEngland.. I certainly couldn't.
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post #288 of 6919 (permalink) Old 02-27-2009, 12:50 PM
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Get real - Who in any race before this one has EVER been asked for his college transcripts? If this isn't desperation, I don't know what is. Not a single request was ever made for Hoover's, Roosevelt's, Truman's, Eisenhower's, Kennedy's, Johnson's, Nixon's, Ford's, Carter's, Reagan's, Clinton's, either Bush's (even though it was known widely that W was a horrendously poor and disinterested student, he was never actually called on it) - so WHY, all of a sudden, is this president's college transcript, as well as his birth certificate (another item never before bandied about), being called into question?

Let me assure you that Harvard, an institution which is 373 years old and has educated some of the most influential and innovative minds in the world, and which enjoys a very respectable reputation, would NOT tolerate someone making public declarations invoking their name and reputation if it were not true. I went to Harvard for a very brief period - 1 year, many years ago, and mostly for fun and novelty. If I went on TV and announced I was a Harvard alumnus, I guarantee you that someone would figure out it wasn't true. All the reporters and pundits have not been able to provide a single document - DOCUMENT - which refutes anything Obama and his family and people have said. Give it up - work on things that have some merit, and don't scream "I am a foot-stamping sore loser."

(and yes, I lean left in many areas - but I also am quite conservative, even "reactionary" about a few things. I am a complex, thinking person, thoughtful and well educated. My ideas, philosophies and ideals are not knee-jerk or rubber-stamped party lines. I think most of us here are way too intelligent and complicated for that.)
Thanks for cutting through all the crap and getting to the point. Here I was trying to argue and you just cut it off completely.

And as she said, please don't pigeon hole us as liberal democrats. Its just not the case. Supporting Obama does NOT make me anything but a supporter of Obama.
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post #289 of 6919 (permalink) Old 02-27-2009, 01:09 PM Thread Starter
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And as she said, please don't pigeon hole us as liberal democrats. Its just not the case. Supporting Obama does NOT make me anything but a supporter of Obama.
I understand your point - but by supporting Obama, you indirectly support the 'liberal' democrat agenda which he is supporting. Followers of Obama are certainly NOT supporting any conservative agenda. But I can accept that there are 'moderates' and progressives that support Obama based on the message of hope and change. We all want hope and change. We differ on what that is.
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post #290 of 6919 (permalink) Old 02-27-2009, 01:13 PM
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I should not even be answering this, but really - if your clients are wealthy people, they don't really NEED Medicare, do they? And so far, nothing has gotten "nicked", has it? And as far as I can see, the entire construction industry has been hard hit. Maybe that's one reason why unions overwhelmingly voted FOR Obama and a change in the status quo. "The end of Democracy as we know it"??? Are you SERIOUS? After 35 days, or whatever it is?? Are you even old enough to remember or know anything about FDR, or studied about Linclon, or Jefferson, or the Industrial Revolution and the formation of labor unions? Radio "personalities" are just that - personalities - nothing more. They are not experts or leaders - just large mouths spewing foment. How is that useful?
Oh god - the radio guys. GRRRRRRRRR. THEY ARE ENTERTAINERS. Got that? I listen to Hannity several days a week.

I have listened to him spew logical fallacy after logical fallacy and it amazes me how people believe it.

Now look. When I say logical fallacy, I MEAN STRICT logic. Formal, mathematical logic where his paragraphs can easily by dismantled and put into a truth table and proven to be FALSE, contradictory or inconsistent. This happens over and over. And Im not talking about opinions. I am talking about how they arrive at conclusions, based on a line of reasoning that they construct. But it is so craftily done that I doubt very many ever stop to think and make the connections. I will say that one guy called about a month ago, a staunch Republican. Hannity cut him off in the middle of being told that because of this exact reason, he is hugely detrimental to the Republican party and that...well we didn't get any further. click.

But the sensationalism, banner waving and emotionalism sells. Whats more, his listenership is mostly blue collar males that are working in their shops, out in a construction site, in a factory - the more centrist or liberal citizens tend to be in an office somewhere, listening to muzak or nothing at all. (these are the true demographics here, not MY assumptions) This is why there is no corresponding response to these guys because the people that would be interested in talk shows representing other views, mostly never listen to the radio - unless maybe its NPR. There have been multiple attempts to form shows, by the best of the best. They fail because of demographics - most all talk show radio listeners are conservatives.

Now I dont believe in the whole equal time concept but I do lament that these guys go unchecked and not responded to, feeding bullshit reasoning that is charged with outrageous emotion, to the portion of the country that tends to be less educated. THIS concerns me. So in a sense, it would be nice to have rebuttals and corrections - and have a logician to stop them every five minutes and explain that "what you just said is not true, cannot possibly true or is so contradictory or full of inconsistencies that you should not be saying it."

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post #291 of 6919 (permalink) Old 02-27-2009, 01:21 PM
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So in a sense, it would be nice to have rebuttals and corrections - and have a logician to stop them every five minutes and explain that "what you just said is not true, cannot possibly true or is so contradictory or full of inconsistencies that you should not be saying it."
Only if the same can be done with the tv news media like MSNBC, NBC, CNN, etc.

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post #292 of 6919 (permalink) Old 02-27-2009, 01:27 PM Thread Starter
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Only if the same can be done with the tv news media like MSNBC, NBC, CNN, etc.
Eggzactly!!!!
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post #293 of 6919 (permalink) Old 02-27-2009, 01:29 PM
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Only if the same can be done with the tv news media like MSNBC, NBC, CNN, etc.

NO

There is no parallel in comparing Rush or Hannity to these networks. Yes, Fox and CNN have their leanings but:

A) - There is equalized exposure in this context. Comparatively EVERYBODY (across demographics) watches the news.

B) - They are held to a much higher standard than the radio guys and they do not deal in opinions and speculations. They deal in news. Albeit the news can be slanted and often is by BOTH liberal and conservative networks, it is still news, NOT a show of unchecked opinions
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post #294 of 6919 (permalink) Old 02-27-2009, 01:30 PM Thread Starter
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So in a sense, it would be nice to have rebuttals and corrections - and have a logician to stop them every five minutes and explain that "what you just said is not true, cannot possibly true or is so contradictory or full of inconsistencies that you should not be saying it."
so by who's data would you prove them wrong? And this is applying your rebuttal filter to both sides - any talking head that states something as fact... how do you disprove them? If Obama says the bill has no earmarks, yet you can look at what's in the bill and it has what are typically defined as earmarks... well it has earmarks - so who is right?
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post #295 of 6919 (permalink) Old 02-27-2009, 01:31 PM
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As I read some of the latest posts, I was tempted to hit the Reply button, to answer certain statements in each one. Some were so ludicrous that they were cartoonish, and don't warrant serious reply. That long sob story employer's tale was an interesting and fairly well-done exercise in manipulation, and in another time, I probably would have fallen prey to the violins. However, there was a break in the flow towards the end, and all of a sudden the story is about a comparison with the boss and a welfare-bilking young woman, and unspecified exorbitant taxes which cause him to relinquish his citizenship, and move to another country?

First of all, what happened to any mention of the middle class? What new taxes has Obama levied, and which taxes have been jacked up? (Other than the fact that taxes are raised nearly every year - on nearly everything - hardly news, and HARDLY Obama's or the Dems' fault). Please clarify for me, what exactly is the definition and list of qualifications to be a "patriot"?

I (we) own a house. I (we) own a small business which employs about 8 people. I (we) pay income, property, SS, work comp, unemployment, state, federal, S&U, payroll, sales, etc., etc. taxes..... But we do so gladly, because we are contributing to the greater good. We may bitch about it, and we may not always be happy with how the money is spent, but it needs to be there - we live on a private road - we have no sidewalks, no street lights, no storm drains, no regular police patrol - why should we pay the same taxes as the folks on the next street? Because when we drive out of OUR street, we are driving onto streets that ARE lit, where there ARE sidewalks - they have to be maintained, and it was the choice of the majority of the bozos who live on our street to stay "independent". They thought we, as a neighborhood, could do it ourselves, cheaper. Well guess what - only about 60% of the "neighbors" contributed to the maintenance fund the first year, so the rest of us had to pony up the rest. The following year, only about 25% gave anything, and since then - zilch. So our road is rutted and people blame each other. Charming.

"you can find me sitting on a beach, retired, and with no employees to worry about…." - I find this quite disturbing... I have no problem with someone who decides they love the south of France, or New Zealand, or Tuscany or Fiji, and retires there. But someone who claims to be a patriotic American, who uses hard times in their country as an excuse to bail and run, rather than get involved and work to improve it and restore the shine and vision - that's someone I to whom I would close my ears and mind.


oh - and btw - my favorite flavors of Kool-Aid are Tropical Punch and Cherry, mixed together.
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post #296 of 6919 (permalink) Old 02-27-2009, 01:31 PM Thread Starter
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NO

There is no parallel in comparing Rush or Hannity to these networks. Yes, Fox and CNN have their leanings but:

B) - They are held to a much higher standard than the radio guys and they do not deal in opinions and speculations. They deal in news. Albeit the news can be slanted and often is by BOTH liberal and conservative networks, it is still news, NOT a show of unchecked opinions
oh, really? There are too many stories of liberal network editors chopping "news" to bits to tell the story they want told.
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post #297 of 6919 (permalink) Old 02-27-2009, 01:35 PM
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NO

There is no parallel in comparing Rush or Hannity to these networks.
How quickly we forget Chris Matthews "Oh God" comment regarding Gov. Jindal!

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post #298 of 6919 (permalink) Old 02-27-2009, 01:37 PM Thread Starter
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"you can find me sitting on a beach, retired, and with no employees to worry aboutÖ." - I find this quite disturbing... I have no problem with someone who decides they love the south of France, or New Zealand, or Tuscany or Fiji, and retires there. But someone who claims to be a patriotic American, who uses hard times in their country as an excuse to bail and run, rather than get involved and work to improve it and restore the shine and vision - that's someone I to whom I would close my ears and mind.
what if a particular American cannot subscribe and just simply roll over to the wave of big government as the solution to everything? that is what's being crammed down our throats. Some think it is the answer and patriotism is accepting it. Others don't like and see patriotism as rejecting and fighting it. But I am a pragmatist. Look at the situation and tell me it is working and in the future when the US is all the more restrictive to business and innovation and entrepeurship and the economy is dead - who will have been right?
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post #299 of 6919 (permalink) Old 02-27-2009, 01:39 PM
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so by who's data would you prove them wrong? And this is applying your rebuttal filter to both sides - any talking head that states something as fact... how do you disprove them? If Obama says the bill has no earmarks, yet you can look at what's in the bill and it has what are typically defined as earmarks... well it has earmarks - so who is right?

Understand here that I am not discussing "data". Logic has nothing to do with data. It is a closed system that deals with the elements of any given statement, paragraph or group of both. It deconstructs the selections in a strictly mathematical way and plugs them into tables that are then calculated on the basis of the rules of logic. And the rules of logic are not able to be twisted by opinion - it is more or less a science. It is math. 2+2 will always equal 4 and in logic, you cannot change the outcomes either.

So what happens is they take a piece of data that itself may be true. They then plug it into a series of sentences with other data and formulate statements upon that. But so often, the conclusions that they end up with, do not follow from the statements and because the original data itself may be true, the conclusions are granted as true as well - but it does not work like that. And if I were given the chance, I could plot it out and demonstrate it conclusively so, time and time again. And MOST people (this is proven by the way - even the very educated) do not catch many logical fallacies. I personally tend to catch them just because philosophy and logic is my field of study and I am required to learn how to catch this stuff.
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post #300 of 6919 (permalink) Old 02-27-2009, 01:41 PM
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Why do OPINIONS have to be unchecked!! gasp! this is America!! I agree with all of your above post except your last comment!!!

Since when in the United States of America should we EVER inject ourselves in the business of managing opinion!!

Hannity and Rush or Franken are NOT news!! Fox and CNN are PART news and there are parts that ARE opinion. Those parts that are opinion ... let the free market rule. I dont think any one watches Keith Olberman for NEWS anymore than they turn on Fox and watch Hannity for news. C'mon! lets not lose our perspective here.
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