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post #2551 of 6919 (permalink) Old 07-15-2011, 05:34 PM
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When the constitution was written people carried their firearms everywhere they went so I do not see how allowing people now the same right is a mockery of the 2nd amendment. The only difference between now and then is there was no illusion about about being safe then. People understood it was up to the individual to provide for the safety of their home and family.
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post #2552 of 6919 (permalink) Old 07-18-2011, 08:28 AM
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It's interesting to note that this isn't a new argument. Here's a reprint on SecondAmendment.net (a very anti-gun control website, unsurprisingly) of an article from the American Survival Guide (likewise very anti-gun control). It touches on the issue both with regard to Colonial America (during the French-Indian War) and the right of citizens who were freed slaves to carry after the (not-so-)Civil War:
http://www.secondamendment.net/2amd8.html

Whether you're pro- or anti-control, I thought that it was an interesting discussion.

One of the earliest cases discussing the Individual Right interpretation (i.e., is the right to bear arms a personal right or contingent on being in a militia like the Army National Guard) was Kentucky's Bliss v. Commonwealth in 1822; it decided in favor of the Individual Right interpretation. I tend to take this side myself.

If I understand the case right, though, in Arkansas the courts found in favor of the opposing Collective Right interpretation in 1842 in State v. Buzzard/ There the courts decided that it was perfectly OK for the State to prohibit arms as (they felt that) the intent of the amendment was to allow (state) militias; this was sometimes known as the "Arkansas doctrine." I disagree with this viewpoint, but it's not a new one. And I guess that I can't blame it on New York State or the federalists in Washington, either.

Here's the most recent Supreme Court decision (you can have them for self defense, etc., but state or federal laws can prohibit them in some places):
District of Columbia v. Heller - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Why do I point out all this historical nonsense?
To point out that we might as well respect each other, this argument's two centuries old and still going on.

My own personal take on it all?
* I agree that the key is responsible ownership and favor harsh penalties for misuse;
* I'd like it if all adults were encouraged to own longarms and we taught more firearm safety courses;
* I think the American emphasis on owning pistols over longarms is silly and may show, ahem, inadequacies (kidding! mostly...);
* I *don't* like some conflicting current laws prohibiting or restricting transport to and from the home in silly ways (looking at you, Missouri);
* I have no issue with laws saying no guns in schools, churches, bars, and state or federal buildings like courthouses.
* I do get twitchy over a lot of (old) laws that go beyond the above traditional "no gun" areas.

Caveat lictor:
I'm a safety guy, not a legal beagle.
Nor is this in any way my professional opinion on anything. ^_^
I'm also both a liberal (in some ways) and also pro-second amendment, so you're welcome to hate me for either!

Last edited by Glas; 07-18-2011 at 08:30 AM.
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post #2553 of 6919 (permalink) Old 07-18-2011, 12:31 PM
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the country (USA) is broke, the states are broke and the cities are broke. unless you live in NYC don't expect the cops to show up when you call them because there is less and less of them every day. the bad guys know this that is why its up to you to provide not only protection but instruction on defensive weapons to your family. most of you here have a doberman, well thats a start.
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post #2554 of 6919 (permalink) Old 07-18-2011, 01:34 PM
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Quote:
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the country (USA) is broke, the states are broke and the cities are broke. unless you live in NYC don't expect the cops to show up when you call them because there is less and less of them every day. the bad guys know this that is why its up to you to provide not only protection but instruction on defensive weapons to your family. most of you here have a doberman, well thats a start.
Replace "too broke" with "too far away" and you have the classic frontier rationale.
(Which is something with which I'm OK, but I think home defense is legit.)

By the way --
While we ARE broke, and are playing weird games with the world's economy just to play politics American-style, I'm glad to see that BOTH parties are finally paying attention to the check book at last (or cheque book, for other English speakers elsewhere).

No one seemed to care when President Reagan spent us from $US one trillion to three trillion in the hole (that's why I only voted for him the first time). And no one got excited when the budget President Clinton pushed managed to both balance the budget AND also spend more on defense than the defense draw-down plan that had been proposed by the senior President Bush.

But people are finally paying attention. And while I think that both parties bought in on the housing bubble bust, and I think that it's silly that a lot of people blame the current President for bills for overseas parties thrown by the guy before him, I'm just darned glad that BOTH major American parties are FINALLY tallying up what's really in the books, and not just saying one thing while doing another! >.<
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post #2555 of 6919 (permalink) Old 07-18-2011, 05:56 PM
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the only problem i have with guns is the fact that they are so readily available to any shmuck who has the money. if anyone believes the only way you can buy one is through a legit store, you're sorely mistaken.

they do make me uncomfortable, but that's another thing entirely.

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post #2556 of 6919 (permalink) Old 07-19-2011, 06:15 PM
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Originally Posted by punkischic View Post
the only problem i have with guns is the fact that they are so readily available to any shmuck who has the money. if anyone believes the only way you can buy one is through a legit store, you're sorely mistaken.

they do make me uncomfortable, but that's another thing entirely.
Criminals will always have guns; they either steal them, or buy stolen ones. It is very, very rare for a criminal, unless it is the first time, to posess a legally purchased firearm. Mexican drug gangs do not have any problem getting guns; they just buy/steal them from the Mexican army/police, or from their neighbors to the south. Despite the lies, very few come from the U.S. except for those that the twits at the ATF allow over the border.

I can never understand being uncomfortable around guns; they are only machines that are controlled by people. Never have I observed one of my guns get up, load itself, then try to shoot me.
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post #2557 of 6919 (permalink) Old 07-19-2011, 06:23 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GRAYGHOST View Post
Criminals will always have guns; they either steal them, or buy stolen ones. It is very, very rare for a criminal, unless it is the first time, to posess a legally purchased firearm. Mexican drug gangs do not have any problem getting guns; they just buy/steal them from the Mexican army/police, or from their neighbors to the south. Despite the lies, very few come from the U.S. except for those that the twits at the ATF allow over the border.

I can never understand being uncomfortable around guns; they are only machines that are controlled by people. Never have I observed one of my guns get up, load itself, then try to shoot me.
hey GG.... there's always the twit one hears about in the news mishandling their Glock, shooting themselves in the foot or leg trying to holster/unholster it (a glock does not have a traditional mechanical safety switch)... but yes, other than the occassional mishandling, I've never had or heard of a gun shooting itself.
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post #2558 of 6919 (permalink) Old 07-19-2011, 06:27 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Glas View Post
Replace "too broke" with "too far away" and you have the classic frontier rationale.
(Which is something with which I'm OK, but I think home defense is legit.)

By the way --
While we ARE broke, and are playing weird games with the world's economy just to play politics American-style, I'm glad to see that BOTH parties are finally paying attention to the check book at last (or cheque book, for other English speakers elsewhere).

No one seemed to care when President Reagan spent us from $US one trillion to three trillion in the hole (that's why I only voted for him the first time). And no one got excited when the budget President Clinton pushed managed to both balance the budget AND also spend more on defense than the defense draw-down plan that had been proposed by the senior President Bush.

But people are finally paying attention. And while I think that both parties bought in on the housing bubble bust, and I think that it's silly that a lot of people blame the current President for bills for overseas parties thrown by the guy before him, I'm just darned glad that BOTH major American parties are FINALLY tallying up what's really in the books, and not just saying one thing while doing another! >.<
Presidents do not spend money or create budgets. In that vein, I do not blame Obama for current messes. I blame Congress. Sure, Presidents have the pen - they can either sign or veto. Clinton signed the budget bill and was backed by a Republican majority (had to get that in there). Reagon fought Democrat headwinds his whole time in office.
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post #2559 of 6919 (permalink) Old 07-19-2011, 08:32 PM
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Quote:
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I can never understand being uncomfortable around guns; they are only machines that are controlled by people. Never have I observed one of my guns get up, load itself, then try to shoot me.
they make me uncomfortable, just like heights make me uncomfortable. past experiences have attributed to that.

something clever goes here.
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post #2560 of 6919 (permalink) Old 07-27-2011, 11:20 PM
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post #2561 of 6919 (permalink) Old 07-28-2011, 12:34 AM
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Yes, I am afraid for you all in the US, and ultimately for the rest of the world.

I wish the rich would just pay more. They always plead it will not create jobs, but seriously, I don't think this is the rich to be the target..

Canada has raised the retirement age, I really think it forces people to be more responsible for their retirement income.

Sadly, I am too late into the game to learn about that.

I just hope and pray they don't hit your poor again.
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post #2562 of 6919 (permalink) Old 07-28-2011, 06:28 AM
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the best thing that could happen is for the usa to go bankrupt and start over with a clean slate, but that won't happen.
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post #2563 of 6919 (permalink) Old 07-28-2011, 06:56 AM
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the best thing that could happen is for the usa to go bankrupt and start over with a clean slate, but that won't happen.
Couldn't have said it better.
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post #2564 of 6919 (permalink) Old 07-28-2011, 10:58 AM
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I don't think the people have actually come to terms with what is inevitable. What saddens me the most is that our political leaders seem to be thinking were idiots and believe that raising taxes is what the democrat party is trying to prevent. Bull. Taxes are going up (way up) regardless of what plan is enacted.

As bad as this crisis really is, I think the worst is yet to come. Above all, (sorry for those Obama fans out there) I think the President has shown his true lack of experience and that he is giving up on this. He has decided to point fingers at the other party while pleading to the people to jump on the bandwagon and complain. I have NO problem with asking for the people to use their power and voice their opinion, heck it needs to be said more. However, the manipulating way he goes about it, to satisfy his party's agenda is just not right.

Of course they want to hit the business sector with the biggest percentage of tax increase! Is that a short term solution, or a long term solution? I believe it's a short-term solution and could create more problems (serious problems) in the long term...ie: "the worst is yet to come".

If this plan is put in place unemployment WILL increase. GDP WILL decrease. Its simple economics...if businesses have more money going out, they lower their expenses where they can: production, and payroll. So in the end, is it better to raise taxes for ALL of the people evenly, or is it better to have the Corporations take it on?

Well, considering the business sector controls the economy, which controls our lives...I would say the "ordinary people" are going to feel the affect more in the long run with the democrat's plan. (They just don't want you to believe it.)

It's really very depressing watching what is going on in D.C. As bad as this already is, and our politicians have turned it into a party war. Get over yourself...and figure out a REAL solution. ...that is what your paid for, RIGHT?? I have very little confidence in either party at this point, even if there have been good solutions presented, it seems like the main focus in Washington is which party will win. Sad Sad Sad.
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post #2565 of 6919 (permalink) Old 07-28-2011, 11:00 AM
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Thoughts...

Well I am pretty sure they are going to raise it... No way around it really... I don't like it, but it's gonna happen...

I don't tend to agree with Mr. Obama a lot, but this is one thing I do agree with him on... Loose the tax breaks for oil companies and tax the better off their fair share...

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post #2566 of 6919 (permalink) Old 07-28-2011, 11:07 AM
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Bold mine

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I have NO problem with asking for the people to use their power and voice their opinion, heck it needs to be said more. However, the manipulating way he goes about it, to satisfy his party's agenda is just not right.

I agree I absolutely hate the way he talks down to the nation in his speeches... He tries to play the innocent card way too often...

It's really very depressing watching what is going on in D.C. As bad as this already is, and our politicians have turned it into a party war. Get over yourself...and figure out a REAL solution. ...that is what your paid for, RIGHT?? I have very little confidence in either party at this point, even if there have been good solutions presented, it seems like the main focus in Washington is which party will win. Sad Sad Sad.

I thought he was paid to take vacations? but I agree no faith in either side right now

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post #2567 of 6919 (permalink) Old 07-28-2011, 11:10 AM
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Have any of you seen the proposed 1% transaction tax?

Take a look
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post #2568 of 6919 (permalink) Old 07-28-2011, 12:09 PM
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there would be an agreement reached immediately if their pay was suspended for the duration of the fighting. No product no pay....and no vacations or time off until this matter is settled. Just like the real world for the rest of us. We have people making financial decisions for the country that can't manage their own money. Anyone remember the check kiting fiasco a few years ago?
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post #2569 of 6919 (permalink) Old 07-28-2011, 12:55 PM
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The only ONE with any brains left in that town right now is Senate Republican leader Mitch McConnell, they should take his plan and get it over with. However, I'm not holding my breath for that outcome.

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post #2570 of 6919 (permalink) Old 07-31-2011, 02:48 AM
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I wish the rich would just pay more.
When Jimmy Carter was President the top 1% of earning Americans were accountable for 18% of all federal tax revenue generated. Under the "Bush era cuts" the top 1% of earning Americans are accountable for 40% of all federal tax revenue generated. Seems fair to me.
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post #2571 of 6919 (permalink) Old 07-31-2011, 03:10 AM
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Best thing yet...

Had dinner with the SO's cousins yesterday. The hubby is a career Coast Guard guy with a totally dependent wife with child on the way. So I start out with.... "So how do you feel about the debt ceiling?" (Insert image of me doing the dance move for "raise the roof"...ha ha.)

His response? "What are you talking about? What's a debt ceiling?"

WOW. Floored.

My response...."Um.... you DO realize that you may go with out pay for quite a while, yes?"

---Fill in the rest of the craziness on your own---

Is this representative of the majority of the U.S. public? Completely doped up on our reality shows?

... I'm going to go ahead and write my congressman and tell him to throw in the towel. Screw it.

Lets watch it go down. Maybe we deserve it.



"Rooooooooooooooooo!"
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post #2572 of 6919 (permalink) Old 07-31-2011, 09:40 AM Thread Starter
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I've done my own noodling over this. I've come to the conclusion that the debt ceiling must continue to go up for the economy to continue to function. In a fiat money world that is based on debt. A fiat dollar comes into existence through debt. The US Treasury sells notes/bonds which is borrowing money. The Federal Reserve buys said Treasury paper which enable the US Treasury to have 'money on the books' so to speak to print paper dollars, while the Federal Reserve holds the debt notes as assets. Through the magic of fractional reserve banking, the Federal Reserve banking system creates money against those held assets. And, for a reason that I cannot understand - because even though US Treasuries are considered the textbook safest investment in the world - they pay a paltry yield - "investors" worldwide come to US Treasury auctions and buy this paper, too. Example - China. China buys gobs of our debt notes and joila - anyone notice where the world's manufacturing now takes place? Japan buys gobs of our debt - anyone notice who's dependent on the world for importing it's stuff and technology? Kind of a big global incestuous relationship at the expense of the little people, whom we all are.

So - go ahead and tax the rich. Include Hollywood in that.

'We' were warned long ago about the dangers of a fiat money system - governments across history do not have the self-control to regulate their own spending when there is no limit on the money. They can simply "print it" - through selling debt, fractional banking, etc.

Solution? The system will implode. But - 'they' are preparing for that and readying the next phase of regional/global currencies and ultimately a world currency controlled by the really rich few. And they don't tax themselves.
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post #2573 of 6919 (permalink) Old 07-31-2011, 10:31 AM
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Smoke and mirrors!!

If the Dems were so concerned about the national debt why didn't they solve this problem when they had control over BOTH houses of congress and the Presidency for two years! It's not like our (USA) politicians had no idea that spending and borrowing would not drive our (USA) debt to the already numerously raised debt ceiling of 14 + TRILLION dollars or that this didn't exist then. Remember these are the smartest people in the world (our politicians), They know so much more than you do. Now they're telling you that if they don't get this done, "ARMAGEDDON will ensue and the USA will go down in flames".

This country SPENDS 4 billion dollars A DAY!!! and has to borrow (China owns 30% of our debt) to keep this ludicrous spending spree ONGOING.
You have BOTH sides (and the media) telling you that "we MUST raise taxes, cut DOMESTIC spending (social security [not an entitlement, we pay into that] military pay...etc. The RICH need to pay their FARE share (1% pays 40% now).
YOU'RE NEVER told that WE (you and I) fund the lion's share of NATO (where ever there is a NATO operation, it's usually AMERICAN troops and armaments that are deployed) , that if it wasn't for the USA IMF (International Monetary Fund) would fold. That we sent Billions to Veneuela, Brazil, Argentina for Deep Water Oil Exploration, yet hobble OUR oil industry in this country. We sends TRILLIONS to other countries in foreign aid (how much do you send Canada?) Hell!! we give Canada foreign aid!! We have given China foreign aid for AIDS research, WE"RE BORROWING FROM THEM!!!!! We're giving money to middle eastern countries to remodel their mosques. THEY HATE US!!!

Our Debt crisis can be solved by NOT sending any country or international organization any more of OUR money. The US should just say " Look pal, we like you alot but we have this problem. When we get this solved, we'll be more than happy to help you again but if we fail, you'll really be in the crapper".

The biggest impasse is whether the debt ceiling will be increased til 2012, Before elections, or 2013, after elections. 2012 is not good for President Obama, 2013 is not good for Republicans, plain and simple. Yet WE keep voting the same demagoues back into office.

Most recently, Congressman David Wu, (who will resignafter this debt crisis is over), Antony Weiner and all the other congress critters who have (right and left) brought shame to OUR US government and Nation, will still recieve their MILLION DOLLAR pensions, FOR LIFE!! No one says "boo". They will pass into obscurity being paid by you and I.

I guess that these politicians are pretty smart after all, they have us fooled.
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post #2574 of 6919 (permalink) Old 07-31-2011, 12:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by speedy View Post
the best thing that could happen is for the usa to go bankrupt and start over with a clean slate, but that won't happen.
Well, I suppose you could use the collapse of the Soviet Union as some kinda model for this. Pretty nasty though. It would make for a profound wrap up to the cold war chapters however:

"After what seemed to be victory for the United States and capitalist philosophy, the U.S government deregulated it's financial industries beyond all reason causing their collapse in addition to destabilizing the government itself via improbable policy decisions over four administrations and arguing over ideological semantics within just over a quarter century of that victory."


I suppose if I've learned anything watching the past years of political theater unfold, it's this:

-Our president along with the party he is married to is neither strong or brave enough enact any real change, though I still believe the 2008 elections gave them the mandate to do so.

-The vast majority of republicans elected to congress currently hate their president more than they love their country. Aside from not being strong or brave enough, they have no intention of enacting any change to fix the problems the last four administrations have presented us with.


I really hope to be proven wrong on either point.
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post #2575 of 6919 (permalink) Old 07-31-2011, 12:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by speedy View Post
the best thing that could happen is for the usa to go bankrupt and start over with a clean slate, but that won't happen.
Well, I suppose you could use the collapse of the Soviet Union as some kinda model for this. Pretty nasty though. It would make for a profound wrap up to the cold war chapters however:

"After what seemed to be victory for the United States and capitalist philosophy, the U.S government deregulated it's financial industries beyond all reason causing their collapse in addition to destabilizing the government itself via improbable policy decisions over four administrations and arguing over ideological semantics within just over a quarter century of that victory."


I suppose if I've learned anything watching the past years of political theater unfold, it's this:

-Our president along with the party he is married to is neither strong or brave enough enact any real change, though I still believe the 2008 elections gave them the mandate to do so.

-The vast majority of republicans elected to congress currently hate their president more than they love their country. Aside from not being strong or brave enough, they have no intention of enacting any change to fix the problems the last four administrations have presented us with.


I really hope to be proven wrong on either point.
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