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post #1 of 10 (permalink) Old 08-30-2014, 11:40 PM Thread Starter
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Raw Feeding Help Needed Please

I'm at my wits end here, I just don't know what to do anymore. Soter now has Seborrhea, he's an absolute mess. He's practically bald along his back, dry, flakey, scaly skin EVERYWHERE! He's being treated with medicated shampoo right now and we have another appointment on Tuesday to discuss an overall treatment plan.

So now, on top of the epilepsy and being allergic to bloody every freakin thing on the planet, he's got this! The vet has said that despite our best efforts, he's probably going to have to be on steroids for the rest of his life .

We've done (almost)everything humanly possible:

Ripped out all the carpet
Installed multiple dehumidifiers
Eliminated all chemicals in the house, including dish soap and laundry detergent
High quality diet
Homemade organic treats
Limited contact with grass
Wipe down after contact with grass

There's only two things left we can try.

1) quit tracking. The vet says not too. Soter's drive is so high, he needs this as an outlet plus he LOVES It. We've come so far and worked so hard. She thinks there's more going on than the contact he gets with grass during tracking. We only track him 3 - 4 times a week, he's only on it for the length of the track and it takes him around 6 - 7 minutes to run his track right now. We wipe him down right after.

2) Try switching to raw. For me, this is kind of a last ditch, desperate measure. Raw feeding scares me and confuses me. However, I have read many instances where raw feeding has improved health conditions such as allergies and I'm willing to do whatever it takes to help him.

I am so out of my depth here though, I don't even know where to start. I have a book by Lew Olson called Raw and Natural Nutrition that our breeder recommended. But the problem I'm having is all of Soter's allergies. I'm so afraid that he won't get the proper nutrients. If anyone can help with some recipes, I would be so grateful. He's allergic to:

Chicken
Duck
Turkey
Carrots
Sweet potato
Yams
Tomatoes

For the protein, I can order goat from the butcher and I have friends who hunt and are willing to get us deer and of course beef but that's pretty pricey. Beyond that though, I'm clueless.
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post #2 of 10 (permalink) Old 08-31-2014, 05:07 AM
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Start by adding kefir (either kind) to his current diet. This will help the GI tract work healthily and efficiently.

Not quite sure where in BC you are but there are options available.
Talk to the local small butchers. You're going to be looking for 'off cuts' heart, tongue, cheek, and unground trim. (Beef)
You'll also be looking for similar items in pork (harder to get sometimes). Tank loves rib bones.
I like buying whole frozen sardines, as well as whole frozen mackerel. Salmon in your area must be frozen first, I will have to double check length of time.
Talk to your friends about partridge, and other woodland game birds. Sometimes I've found if you pay for the licence they'll fill the quota and hand it over
This helps tremendously. Rabbit should be available as well, we found a breeder locally (meat rabbits) that would dispatch and remove the entrails.
Squirrels are another option (a lot of these would be novel proteins to him right now)

If you can source the above items within your price range, you're laughing.
There is enough of a rotation to keep it balanced

When first switching to raw, it can be scary. You feel excited and fill with dread you're somehow going to kill your pet.


I've known no deeper love, than that from my beloved Doberman

Think the crap in your kibble is good? Check it out

http://www.naturalnews.com/Report_pe...edients_2.html
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post #3 of 10 (permalink) Old 08-31-2014, 05:12 AM
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Have you looked into adding turmeric to his diet? There is lots of evidence on the benefits of turmeric for many ailments including skin.
My dogs (1 Dobe pup and 1 old Staffy) get turmeric, coconut oil and pepper everyday.
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post #4 of 10 (permalink) Old 08-31-2014, 11:47 AM
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I switched my min pin to raw last month and she adores lamb. Since she's so small and I have a good place to get it from it was relatively cheap. It was also the meat for which I seemed to find the most off cuts at a reasonable price/size. I looked at veal also but that seemed far more expensive. What about hare/rabbit, as SieYa suggested? I'd be cautious about trying other birds however since you say he is allergic to turkey, chicken and duck. This might just be because of the way they're raised though so who knows. Deer/Elk/Moose/Reindeer is a good idea also. I have no idea how goat is going to be for a dog, but certainly if you can get a variety of cuts that's not a bad idea. We have a hunter friend whom occasionally gets us Wild Boar also and there's someone who raises them organically for meat in our area as well. Haven't bought any for the dog, but the point is if you know where to look you can find all kinds of meats. We sometimes also get the opportunity to cow... not sure if they are heifers or if they've had calves but it was cheaper than regular beef.

Either way, keep reading, dig around for the options available to you and start slow. It seems daunting at first but it's less complicated than it seems!
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post #5 of 10 (permalink) Old 08-31-2014, 10:48 PM
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I'm really into keeping things simple, and feed prey model raw.

I feed roughly 80% meat, 10% bone and 10% organ (half of which is liver).

I feed Elsie between 3-4% of her bodyweight, usually around 400 grams a day, which works out:

320g meat a day (heart is muscle meat for raw feeding)
40g bone a day
20g liver a day
20g other organ (kidney & tripe are the main other organs I get) a day

I do not weigh out the 80/10/10 every day as that is far too tedious. I work out how much on a weekly basis and do a couple of organ heavy meals a week.

If I have a very bony thing to feed like a chicken carcass I will generally chop it in half and stuff it with mince to drop the bone %. If I have meat with the bone in, like a chicken drumstick, I just estimate how much bone there is and usually add a handful or two of mince. Sometimes I'll find some bones which have a lot of meat on, so don't bother adding any extra meat.

I don't weigh everything out now, I roughly know how much to feed and if I give Elsie a big meal one day (say I got a really big cheap lamb roast shoulder and gave her the whole thing) the next day she will only get a few bites to eat. I keep a good eye on her poop to gauge if I am feeding too much bone or too much organ. In the beginning I weighed every meal, but I have a pretty good handle on what looks right now.

As far as organizing the food, that was the bit I found hardest. My current system is pretty good.
I buy minced meat that is frozen into 1kg cubes (buy 20kg at a time); every couple of days I put two cubes into a big snaplock container and defrost that and keep it refrigerated - that makes up the basis of Elsie's meat meals. I just grab a spoon and scoop it into her bowl.
For liver I buy a heap at a time and chop it into about 50g pieces as that is what I feed every few days and I freeze it free-flow so I can just get a piece out of the freezer and pop it into her bowl.
The tripe I buy in frozen pelleted form so its easy to scoop out of the bag, and kidneys I buy fresh as I have not been able to find a good source for them yet. Plan on free flow freezing containers of them like the liver.

As for bones, I try to buy them frozen so they are free flow and I just get them out as needed. Every couple of days I will go to the store and buy a bone with a lot of meat on it and give that to Elsie fresh as a bit of a treat.

The main meat I feed:
Chicken
Beef
Lamb
Goat
Pork

Occasionally I can find kangaroo, and I sometimes will add some fish to her meal if I can find it cheap. I give her an egg now and then but not regularly.


Do it or Elsie CDX UDX TT1 JDX AD RA
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post #6 of 10 (permalink) Old 08-31-2014, 11:05 PM
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Breathe!

Keep it simple, seriously, don't over think it. 80% meat, 10% bone, 5% liver, 5% some other secreteing organ like kidney, spleen, brain, testicles, etc. Heart, lung, stomach, and tongue are muscle meat. While veg isn't inherently bad, most dogs do not need them and if you choose to feed them you have to steam or blend them up and they shouldn't make up more than 10% of the diet.

Kefir, apple cider vinegar coconut oil, tumric, and seaweed are all fine to add in if you want, but they are not 100% needed.

Start with one bone in meat and feed for up to two weeks. Upset stomach is really really common durring this time so do NOT be alarmed. Once everything evens out you can start offering organs, small pieces at first. After another week you can start adding in other proteins.

Avoid weight baring bones and mechanically cut bones. Avoid feeding your carnivore other carnivores. Freeze game for 3 weeks before feeding.
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post #7 of 10 (permalink) Old 09-01-2014, 12:55 PM
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I have to ask. Has your boy had a full thyroid panel run? Not the T4 the vet does in the office, but the full panel sent to MSU?

As for feeding raw - it works great for most dogs. Both pups in my signature were weaned to raw and have never eaten kibble ever! Nice steady growth, fabulous coats, no skin issues, no doggie odor, beautiful teeth. The pups will be 14 months on 9/10. The Male is 27-1/2" Tall and 89#. Female is 52-1/2" Tall and 71#. They have done extremely well in the show ring, with limited showing. Male now has 8 points toward his CH title and the Female has 6 points, including a 4 point major.

I also feed Prey Model and agree with discowhore and cardinal -- relax, keep it simple and don't over think.

Starting with chicken quarters generally works well in the beginning, then slowly adding additional protein sources and very small bits of organ.

Here is a link with a lot of good information: https://mypetcarnivore.com/index.php...id=305&lang=en


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post #8 of 10 (permalink) Old 09-02-2014, 12:33 AM Thread Starter
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Thanks so much everyone. I'm breathing and trying to stay calm.

Thankfully, SeiYa has offered to mentor me, she's been an amazing help so far. I've spent the last few days reading everything I can get my hands on, making a list of supplies I'll need and putting together a few meal plans so I can source out meats for him.

ShelianDobe, he did have a full thyroid panel done in January. He has seizures so we took him to Canadawest Vet Clinic in Vancouver in January for an MRI. They also did a full thyroid panel and every blood test known to mankind I will mention it to the vet tomorrow though just in case something may have changed. Unfortunately, he's allergic to chicken so we'll have to start with beef. Figures he's allergic to the most inexpensive meat
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post #9 of 10 (permalink) Old 09-02-2014, 11:52 PM Thread Starter
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We had our vet appointment today. Everyone was quite shocked at how bad poor Soter got in such a short amount of time.

Right off the start, they gave him a steroid shot in the hopes of giving him some relief as soon as possible. Next it was blood work, on the regular blood panel, everything looks good. Both vets examined him and they both agree it's a really, really bad case of allergies. But, in the interest of being through, we had his blood sent off for a full thyroid test.

They have also sent his blood away for allergy tests. We are testing for salmon, potato, and oats, the main ingredients in his food. We know that the blood work allergy test is not completely accurate so my poor baby is back on the elimination diet again. We're going to try hamburger, rice and potatoes for a week and see how that goes. If there's no improvement, we'll eliminate the oats, then the potatoes.

We of course discussed raw feeding. Believe it if not, our vet is fine with it provided I buy the meat from grocery stores/butcher shops and I make it myself which was the plan anyway. I guess there has been a few cases in town of people making their own raw food using questionable meat, imbalanced meals, or buying pre-made questionable raw food and dogs getting sick.

Their only request is that I wait for 3-4 weeks until we finish his elimination diet so we know exactly what proteins he can eat. Given that we have to order the organ meats in, source out the other meats and still get all our supplies, we probably won't be able to start for close to that anyway.

We also have to bath him with medicated shampoo three times a week until the seborrhea is under control. All in all, he is one very unhappy and uncomfortable boy but hopefully we can get this under control soon. Meanwhile, the quest for affordable protein sources continues.
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post #10 of 10 (permalink) Old 09-03-2014, 11:27 PM
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Originally Posted by ObeytheDobies View Post
We had our vet appointment today. Everyone was quite shocked at how bad poor Soter got in such a short amount of time.

Right off the start, they gave him a steroid shot in the hopes of giving him some relief as soon as possible. Next it was blood work, on the regular blood panel, everything looks good. Both vets examined him and they both agree it's a really, really bad case of allergies. But, in the interest of being through, we had his blood sent off for a full thyroid test.

They have also sent his blood away for allergy tests. We are testing for salmon, potato, and oats, the main ingredients in his food. We know that the blood work allergy test is not completely accurate so my poor baby is back on the elimination diet again. We're going to try hamburger, rice and potatoes for a week and see how that goes. If there's no improvement, we'll eliminate the oats, then the potatoes.

We of course discussed raw feeding. Believe it if not, our vet is fine with it provided I buy the meat from grocery stores/butcher shops and I make it myself which was the plan anyway. I guess there has been a few cases in town of people making their own raw food using questionable meat, imbalanced meals, or buying pre-made questionable raw food and dogs getting sick.

Their only request is that I wait for 3-4 weeks until we finish his elimination diet so we know exactly what proteins he can eat. Given that we have to order the organ meats in, source out the other meats and still get all our supplies, we probably won't be able to start for close to that anyway.

We also have to bath him with medicated shampoo three times a week until the seborrhea is under control. All in all, he is one very unhappy and uncomfortable boy but hopefully we can get this under control soon. Meanwhile, the quest for affordable protein sources continues.
I am sure SieYa has directed you to this site but here is a link to an article Lew wrote that talks about why carbs are not suitable for feeding to dogs - paragraphs 10 & 11 in particular:

Myths About Feeding Dogs – Part II | B-Naturals.Com Newsletter

Even with people there are 8 hormones that raise blood sugar and only one that lowers it. The primordial human was exposed to 4% sugars in the diet, but today that figure is 40%. Insulin is how blood sugar gets lowered - it is almost genetically identical in all mammals - but overuse and abuse can wear down that one way to lower sugar by converting the sugar spike into fat. This tells us that sugar (from carbs) is not a natural main diet. Wild honey and fruits and berries were seasonal and small in quantity, not the large helpings we get daily and then try to feed to our dogs.

Be very careful of potato in dog food. Often it is simply a by product from the manufacture of industrial starch using amflora potatoes in Europe; not a healthy source of potato at all.

Most of us who feed raw feed human grade meats, organs and bones - I buy thru a co-op in the Pacific NW area - OR and WA.


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