Difficult to find a natural Doberman - Page 2 - Doberman Forum : Doberman Breed Dog Forums
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post #26 of 36 (permalink) Old 02-07-2019, 12:10 PM
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Originally Posted by Moos View Post
You don't think this exclusivity creates an unnecessary barrier and ultimately a market for the BYB's? I didn't write the standard, and I certainly don't get it. It just baffles me that folks would hold so strongly to something that wasn't natural or inherent to the animal.
Purebred dogs are man made so you could apply that belief to all purebred dogs too. I'm sorry you don't see eye to eye on the "issue" (If you can even call it that). Again, good luck. As determined as you seem you will find a natural puppy one way or another
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post #27 of 36 (permalink) Old 02-07-2019, 12:17 PM
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You don't think this exclusivity creates an unnecessary barrier and ultimately a market for the BYB's?
No, I don't.

The BYBs are always going to be there. They aren't offering the same thing. If people want to accept (and support) less, again, that's on them.

There is no barrier in my mind. The barrier seems to be in yours. You don't want to accept what we're doing, creating your own barrier. It also makes no sense to me to get all up in arms about ears while accepting tail docking.

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post #28 of 36 (permalink) Old 02-07-2019, 12:28 PM Thread Starter
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Well, my understanding was that Dobermans have a longer, thinner tail set high that makes it more prone to injury than some other breeds. If this is true, I find it justified. Also, I think it would definitely be a difficult request of a breeder, bc docking occurs so early on, whereas ear cropping takes place later on.
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post #29 of 36 (permalink) Old 02-07-2019, 01:04 PM
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Well, my understanding was that Dobermans have a longer, thinner tail set high that makes it more prone to injury than some other breeds. If this is true, I find it justified. Also, I think it would definitely be a difficult request of a breeder, bc docking occurs so early on, whereas ear cropping takes place later on.
But both are traditionally done for the same historical reason - less for the bad guy to grab them by.

I personally don't think the Doberman's tail is any thinner or more prone to injury than most breeds.

I personally think that both surgeries are more aptly described as cosmetic these days, and I'm fine with that.

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post #30 of 36 (permalink) Old 02-07-2019, 01:15 PM Thread Starter
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The BYBs are always going to be there. They aren't offering the same thing. If people want to accept (and support) less, again, that's on them.
Well it's not just on them. It's on the community, bc the average person can't tell a BYB from a healthy, good tempered dobe. A poorly bred, poorly raised Doberman reflects poorly on the breed as a whole. Who's being egocentric?
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post #31 of 36 (permalink) Old 02-07-2019, 01:46 PM
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Hi Moos.

You may not realize this, but the general consensus is that floppy ears in some dogs (and other domesticated animals) is an unwanted result of domestication. Charles Darwin was the first propose this in publication. It is often referred to as "Domestication Syndrome"

For your reading, a very simplistic overview:

https://www.sciencealert.com/science...ation-syndrome

So... I suppose that if one wanted to, one could refer to floppy ears as "unnatural".

I don't, but sill... The argument could be made!

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post #32 of 36 (permalink) Old 02-07-2019, 01:55 PM
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Well it's not just on them. It's on the community, bc the average person can't tell a BYB from a healthy, good tempered dobe. A poorly bred, poorly raised Doberman reflects poorly on the breed as a whole.
And this is my fault how?

These days there is information everywhere. The breed clubs and the breeders themselves put up informational websites to help the average person learn how to tell the difference. We form newsgroups and facebook pages, clubs hold Meet The Breed events, there are books, there are magazines. The information is out there for anyone who takes a minute to look for it. I think it's fair to say we are doing what we can to provide it for those who will take a moment to look. If they don't look, I'm sure that's also somehow our fault. It is always is. Sigh.

And that's why a lot of the breeders have abandoned these pages. There is always a newcomer like yourself to tell us it's our fault.

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post #33 of 36 (permalink) Old 02-07-2019, 02:00 PM
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And btw, some poorly bred, poorly raised Dobermans are still spectacular pets in their own right, reflecting well on the breed as a whole. It's often those poorly bred ones that lead their owners to doing better (when purchasing) the next time. There are a lot of poorly bred, poorly raised Dobermans in rescue that are wonderful dogs.

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post #34 of 36 (permalink) Old 02-07-2019, 02:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Moos View Post
Well it's not just on them. It's on the community, bc the average person can't tell a BYB from a healthy, good tempered dobe. A poorly bred, poorly raised Doberman reflects poorly on the breed as a whole. Who's being egocentric?
I don't understand your point? You're right, the average person can't, but the people here do a lot of great education. For example, you came here, and we have provided a lot of information about what makes a good breeder, and why. You now have that information (as does anyone reading along, or anyone we talk to, etc). Once they have that information, it's really up the THEM to make the decision about what type of breeder to support, isn't it? Just like I posted earlier in the thread.... (post #6 if you want to read it again) - people decide what's most important to them. The best we can do is to provide education. Now it's in your hands (I don't mean YOU specifically, but the general "you")...what choice do you make? What do you prioritize and where do you rank ethics in there?

If you decide that ears are a dealbreaker and ethical breeding isn't, then I guess you choose to buy from a poor quality breeder. I'm not sure how that's any less egocentric, if you get right down to it. Every single breed has a breed standard, we all can agree or disagree with parts of those standards, and we can choose whether to support ethical breeders (as we define "ethical") within that breed or not. There are certainly breeds that I wouldn't own because I dislike their breed standards (or, I'd buy "working" lines, for example)...but for me, personally, ethical breeding (as I define it) is a deal breaker - I wouldn't buy from someone I don't consider ethical, regardless of my desires.

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post #35 of 36 (permalink) Old 02-07-2019, 02:22 PM Thread Starter
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@MeadowCat and @MaryAndDobes ...you are correct, I have found this site to be very informative, and I appreciate the folks that have taken the time to provide that. And you are correct in that upon receipt of that information, it is on me to decide what I value most. I've encountered a few aggressive breeders in my search that portrayed a sense of exclusivity, that I have found confusing but mostly frustrating. And I apologize if my frustration fueled an accusatorial tone.
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post #36 of 36 (permalink) Old 02-16-2019, 04:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Moos View Post
You don't think this exclusivity creates an unnecessary barrier and ultimately a market for the BYB's? I didn't write the standard, and I certainly don't get it. It just baffles me that folks would hold so strongly to something that wasn't natural or inherent to the animal.
I have to agree with Mary, if "this exclusivity" as you refer to it, creates a barrier and drives a person to BYBs, then that person's priorities aren't where they should be. Health, Longevity and Temperament should be ones priorities. In my opinion.

Additionally, we aren't losing out on great homes because we stick to our guns and crop our puppies, we have perhaps even greater homes with persons and families that are all about health, longevity and temperament. In any case, we all have a hefty waiting list, of well vetted excellent homes.

I, as most, breed for myself, at the time puppies are cropped, I rarely know who is staying, who goes to a show home and who goes to a companion home. So..... they are all cropped.

I can understand your frustration of not finding what you want, when you want, but I don't understand why ears would be of higher importance than health, longevity and temperament. But then, I don't understand why some pet people are stuck on a particular color or sex, at the sake of the more important health, longevity and temperament, either.

I wish you luck finding the puppy you are looking for.
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