What am I doing wrong with posting this time? - Doberman Forum : Doberman Breed Dog Forums
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post #1 of 27 (permalink) Old 05-11-2018, 02:33 PM Thread Starter
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What am I doing wrong with posting this time?

Hi guys!

So I've had two Dobermans in the past who never had a problem with just the tampon and Zonas tape method, but my new puppy is a master of escaping. I am doing the Photo Tutorial Method with reinforcement tape at the very bottom, and even included Torbot skin bond at the bottom of her ear, letting it sit to become tacky before I put the tampon in. They are down in her ear as far as it's possible to go, and I hold the ear high up and tight and screw the posts down in.

She can get out of it anywhere between 10 mins and a day, so I redo it every single day. I watch her constantly, but she just shakes her head HARD twice and they fly out. Did I get bad batches of tape or skin bond where it isn't sticky at all or something? I bought Unisolve but have never even used it because she just easily rips it off herself. No sores or problems in her ears or anything like that. Problem is that the tape is getting pretty expensive to replace, and she's exactly 5 months so we have a long way to go!

I will be totally amazed if anyone could get her posts to stay in more than a day!

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post #2 of 27 (permalink) Old 05-11-2018, 02:40 PM
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Using the tampon method? You are actually using the tampon tubes? Right? One of the reasons I don't use that method is because often the tube is too large to actually get down to the bottom of the ear canal.

Makes it really easy to shake the post material out of the ear--is that what is happening?

Can you take pictures of exactly how you are posting the ear--take the shot so we can see one from the front and one from the side--close up please.
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post #3 of 27 (permalink) Old 05-11-2018, 02:48 PM
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Try 1/2" backer rod strenthened with 2 or 3 layers of gorilla tape instead of tampons. You may have to really twist and push the post down in the ear and stretch it onto the post for it to stay in. Pull up more on her ears than you think you should, it will not hurt her.
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post #4 of 27 (permalink) Old 05-11-2018, 02:54 PM Thread Starter
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What is backer rod and gorilla tape or where do you get that? The tampon is really tiny, it's one of the smallest they bring and it goes all the way down to where the ear ends. Yep, I'm using the full tampon! Looks like she has escaped again for the third time today so I will try to take a picture and post to see what I am doing wrong. I pull up extremely hard so I am certain that isn't the problem either!

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post #5 of 27 (permalink) Old 05-11-2018, 02:55 PM
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I have only 2 suggestions:

What greenkouki said ^^^ Although I prefer standard duct tape to Gorilla tape which is my go-to. And as green said going all the way down will not cause pain or damage. Your pup's actual ear canal takes a sharp 90 degree turn at the base of the ear.

Secondly: Buy your Zonas on line in bulk. Here is an example: https://www.amazon.com/Johnson-JJ510.../dp/B01ET9DAPO

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post #6 of 27 (permalink) Old 05-11-2018, 03:00 PM
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The tutorial here on DT uses backer rod (also called caulking rod at the hardware store)
https://www.dobermantalk.com/ear-crop...my-method.html

Gorilla tape is like a really strong and thicker duct tape. You can roll up 2 zip ties under the gorilla/duct tape (cut off the zipper parts) in the post to make it even more firm.
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post #7 of 27 (permalink) Old 05-11-2018, 03:07 PM Thread Starter
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Thanks guys! I am losing my mind doing it up to 3-5 times a day, so I am going to Rona now to buy some backer rod and to do it exactly like the method. I have some duct tape so maybe I'll just try that. It's just that no matter how deep it is in the ear, if they shake their heads hard enough, it'll pop out without no tape at the bottom for sure! How on earth does Zephyr in the photo method get away with not taping the bottom? I'm pretty sure Juneau will be out of this in less than a minute, but I will try it!!

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post #8 of 27 (permalink) Old 05-11-2018, 03:09 PM
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For the bottom tape on her ear, start with it almost pointing downward or at least slanting down on the post, as low as you can get the tape to go. Run it around her ear where it joins the top of her head, (tape across that little fold, of course) and around across the bell of her ear a little, and end with the tape slanting down into her ear, as low as possible on the post again. Then you can run another piece of tape over that piece but a little higher up. And finish the posting.

I hope that helps. She may just have had the outside bottom of her ear cut down a little further than the crops your other pups had.

Last edited by melbrod; 05-11-2018 at 03:12 PM.
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post #9 of 27 (permalink) Old 05-11-2018, 03:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brandy&Melanie View Post
Thanks guys! I am losing my mind doing it up to 3-5 times a day, so I am going to Rona now to buy some backer rod and to do it exactly like the method. I have some duct tape so maybe I'll just try that. It's just that no matter how deep it is in the ear, if they shake their heads hard enough, it'll pop out without no tape at the bottom for sure! How on earth does Zephyr in the photo method get away with not taping the bottom? I'm pretty sure Juneau will be out of this in less than a minute, but I will try it!!
The ear cropper who did my puppy likes to leave very little pocket for the post to stay in and while it looks beautiful it can really work against you too. I don't know if that's the case here? But that's another reason the stretch can be so important in getting the posts to stay in.
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post #10 of 27 (permalink) Old 05-11-2018, 03:31 PM
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One other thought...

Although it is a bit difficult. after the post is definitely secure in the base and you've pulled the ears up high... Make sure that you start taping as low as you can get on the ear. A post that is firmly set in the base. the proper diameter, back taped and firmly taped to the ear will rarely shake free.
Just remember (and yes, I realize that this is not your first rodeo LOL), taping firmly and correctly does not imply taping "tightly" which can cause serious issues, including necrosis.

Oh also... Although many will disagree. I have found that a bridge helps mitigate post removal. I believe I am one of the rare folks who still post with a bridge.

If you do decide to bridge, keep it as low as possible (just above the skull cap) and make sure not to pull the ears vertically upright. Your goal is still to have them sit at about 10 o'clock - 2 o'clock.

Honestly, I have posted all my own dogs, and helped with many others and as methods change and dealing with different puppy personalities crop up (pun intended!), there always seems to be a new learning curve.

John
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post #11 of 27 (permalink) Old 05-11-2018, 04:40 PM
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To add to what others have already told you about using backer rod and setting the post in deep enough and stretching the ear up on the post and putting in the first wrap of tape low enough.

Make sure you have back taped the post material. (sticky side out--as the last tape on the post). Take a short length of Zonas tape and starting on the side of the ear facing the centerline of the head (this will be clockwise on one ear and counterclockwise on the other ear--start the tape angled up and forward ON THE POST. Wrap up and around the ear leather--folding the little flap of skin against the ear leather--and back down put your finger on the back edge of the ear--push it gently forward and IN--this closes the gap between the front and back of the ear, leaving a much smaller gap for the post to pop out--if you get it right (right means you only have just barely enough room to stick the end of the tape through the gap and dead end it where you started.

Take another piece of tape--start slightly higher and do the same thing--and a third piece of tape and put in one more of these angled wraps. What you will where these tape wraps are stuck to the post is a herring bone pattern.

Put on two more sections of tape--one in the middle and one at the very tip of the ear

If you've closed that gap enough--the post can't pop out. It's really the whole secret to getting posts to stay in on show crops that have the base really well cleaned out leaving shallow pocket.

I don't use bridges for any more than possibly the first two or three postings after the crop--but bridges are optional and if you are still bridging or are going to do so follow 4x4 John's direction about where to locate it.

Good luck--following the instructions added here to the Zephyr direction in the sticky should help a lot. And not matter what the Zephyr instructions say DON'T use vet wrap when posting ears--it's not safe for that application. It can shrink even if you think you didn't stretch it and only adds weight anyway. The post, technique and taping procedure is what will keep posts in ears--NOT VET WRAP.
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post #12 of 27 (permalink) Old 05-11-2018, 06:59 PM Thread Starter
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Thanks guys! I do all those tips you guys mentioned except realized that maybe her crop is just cut deeper than other dogs! I don't usually do vet wrap just in case I do it too tight, and I stopped the bridge a bit into the posting because her ears were crossing in too much!
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post #13 of 27 (permalink) Old 05-11-2018, 07:46 PM
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The size backer rod you use can also make a difference, depending on the size of your dog's ears. If I remember right, we used duct tape to get the backer rod stiffer, then we wound 2-sided tape all around which helped the post stick to the ears themselves. We also cut the end that goes into the bottom of the ear into a point so it would go a little deeper and fit better. Mocha was a shaker as well, so every little bit helped LOL.
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post #14 of 27 (permalink) Old 05-12-2018, 10:20 AM
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Is her crop shaped differently than the others? I posted Sypha with the zip tie method instead of the backer rod method, because her ear crop shape was different and it worked better for her ears...


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post #15 of 27 (permalink) Old 05-26-2018, 12:35 AM Thread Starter
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Update! Sorry it is so hard to get pictures of her because no one will help me and my Mom do it and she is holding the wriggling puppy while I am taping! I am pulling up the ear nice and high while I put the post in, PLUS while I tape it. It IS going to the bottom of the ear canal because it won't go down any further. I find I have to do it a little tighter around at the bottom instead of just laying it on and squeezing, and I'm worried it will be too tight, but that is the ONLY way she will keep it on for more than 10 minutes.

I followed the Photo Tutorial method exactly minus the bumpers and vet wrap, and I also tape the bottom more because there is NO way Juneau is going to stay in the posts like the tutorial shows for more than 5 minutes. With this method, she still gets out of them every day. I added the Torbot glue to this, and she still gets out in a day. I have no idea what I am doing wrong, but maybe her ears are cut really deep? I am losing my mind but I think I will just have to accept the fact that I am going to have to change them at least once a day.. Her ears look exactly like the picture of the red Dobe posted in the tutorial, so I know I am doing it right, but she is smarter than me and has figured out how to shake them out in a matter of hours!

Argh, all I want is a couple days without a post changing! I've never had to take the posts off because she easily rips the skin bond glue out of her ear like it's nothing, so while I am cleaning up the posting supplies I usually see her quickly shake it off. I also have noticed that the Zonas tape is not sticky at all and falls off pretty fast when I just lay it on the ear and squeeze.

Here is what she looks like! Ignore the bent tip, she bent the backer rod at the top, but stands straight now.



Something else I have noticed... The bell is sticking out way more now than it ever did, and it isn't the crop because it never used to do that. Is the way I'm taping making the bell stick out? Maybe I am taping the bottom too tight and the bell is getting wrinkled in. Honestly maybe I am just seeing things because I have lost my mind! I am almost ready to give up and she's only 5 months old.


ETA: Just some more details, but I usually cut them to a point so they fit better down in the ears. At the very bottom of the post I do the angled tape, like Dobebug suggested earlier as well. The post is as deep in the base as it can go, the correct size for her ear (backer rod 1/2 inch because 5/8 is too small), back taped, pulled up high and tight, and taped as far down at the bottom as I can.

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post #16 of 27 (permalink) Old 05-26-2018, 12:59 AM
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Hey Brandie...

There is a brand new visual tutorial here on DT

It was just recently put up by greenkouki. It's the best one, including u-tube videos that I have ever seen.

https://www.dobermantalk.com/ear-crop...acker-rod.html

Was this the one that you were using as a guide?

If not, I would carefully follow the step by step instructions. They are IMO, flawless.

Best to you and your pup.

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post #17 of 27 (permalink) Old 05-26-2018, 01:13 AM
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Hey! I think you can see Ryan's finished ears on FB and I imagine she was cropped by the same person who cropped Juneau!

She was posted using pipe foam insulation instead of backer rod. Sort of like this: https://www.rona.ca/en/insulant---cf...ipe-insulation.

I just cut off an appropriate sized piece, reinforced it with duct tape, back taped it with Zonas and then stuck it in her ear, haha! I did not have to taper the piece or use bumpers.

I did use the U shaped wire recommended by their breeder as a 'bridge' for quite some time, I just made larger ones as Ryan grew. I've looked at some pictures, and she wore it until she was 7ish months old.

Good luck! Juneau is a serious cutie
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Yes, I have! I do everything the same except the zip-ties. I doubt zip-ties are the problem though, since the problem isn't the backer rod bending. I just have no idea how everyone's Dobes can stay in this! It is in as deep as it goes with me pulling the ear up, but Juneau just shakes it out and then laughs at me with her nub!!

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post #19 of 27 (permalink) Old 05-26-2018, 01:19 AM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PrairieGirl View Post
Hey! I think you can see Ryan's finished ears on FB and I imagine she was cropped by the same person who cropped Juneau!

She was posted using pipe foam insulation instead of backer rod. Sort of like this: https://www.rona.ca/en/insulant---cf...ipe-insulation.

I just cut off an appropriate sized piece, reinforced it with duct tape, back taped it with Zonas and then stuck it in her ear, haha! I did not have to taper the piece or use bumpers.

I did use the U shaped wire recommended by their breeder as a 'bridge' for quite some time, I just made larger ones as Ryan grew. I've looked at some pictures, and she wore it until she was 7ish months old.

Good luck! Juneau is a serious cutie
Oh awesome, I'll have to try this! At this point, I will give anything a shot, I am SO frustrated! Did you go to the Airdrie clinic? I think that's where Juneau went. I can't find a picture of Ryan!! Haha I want to see her!

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post #20 of 27 (permalink) Old 05-26-2018, 08:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brandy&Melanie View Post

Argh, all I want is a couple days without a post changing! I've never had to take the posts off because she easily rips the skin bond glue out of her ear like it's nothing, so while I am cleaning up the posting supplies I usually see her quickly shake it off. I also have noticed that the Zonas tape is not sticky at all and falls off pretty fast when I just lay it on the ear and squeeze.
e the bent tip, she bent the backer rod at the top, but stands straight now.

Brandy&Melanie - forgive the Beau, from re-posting this photo / she is cute, as a little princess,,,

Wife is the poster in this family - few things we learned, may help others.
a) it was always a new challenge for use / 24 years between puppy #1 & #2 and a 12 year gap before pup #3 posting
b) foam backer rod, much better than using tampons
- Kelly had one ear chanal smaller than the other, so bottom of one foam rod and to be trimmed to insert (down into ear)
c) bridge tape use should be 6 weeks maximum / eventually causing ear tips to touch...taking 2-3 months to correct
- bridge tape is also too restrictive / without it, pup will exercise its ear muscles & rotate ears, on strange noses
d) we never use zip ties / gorilla tape wrapped foam gives rod sufficient stiffness
e) White Zonas tape lacks stickiness & Vet wrap loosly applied and squeezed in place, holds the white tape, in place
f) we never-ever used skin bond glue
^^ I believe that is causing your pup ears to itch, non-stop / and results in the head shaking, until the posts come off.

FUNNY - former Amy at 10 weeks young / learned to run under the oak end table, and bust her posts out...so we had to post, set her down, and tell her "No-No girl, you leaving them in". Mom would post & Dad would block entry under end table end, for a moment......and say "No-No" to any head shaking, in first 5 minutes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Beaumont67 View Post
Sorry my Post #5 was written wrong...got the tapes mixed up.
Step 1 - Johnson & Johnson Zonas porous tape / white
Step 2 - Vet Wrap (PetFlex)...but not too tight, or circulation restricted / holds the Zonas tape in place

Quote:
Originally Posted by Beaumont67 View Post

We got the ear posting tapes, in USA - hard to find locally:

a) Johnson & Johnson Zonas porous tape / white
https://naturesfarmacy.com/zonas-tape.html

b) Vet Wrap (PetFlex) / but not too tight, don't cut off circulation ... Call Us 770-284-8969 / naturesfarmacy
- in multiple colors & patterns (4" wide rolls best)
- sorry, not seeing a link for it...awesome product though

------------Kelly & (Amy - RIP @ 11.7 y/o)

Last edited by Beaumont67; 05-26-2018 at 08:35 AM.
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post #21 of 27 (permalink) Old 05-26-2018, 09:00 AM
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Are you putting the tape as low or lower than I do at the base of the ear? You can make the tape swoop down further on the back part of the ear and that might help a little bit. What size backer rod are you using? It looks like 1/2" would be perfect. The zip ties are nice because they keep the posts from bending and the ears will be laser straight when you take them down.
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post #22 of 27 (permalink) Old 05-26-2018, 01:43 PM Thread Starter
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Yep, I use 1/2 inch! Maybe I'll try putting the stickier vet tape VERY loose at the bottom just to hold the darn things in the base of the ear!!

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post #23 of 27 (permalink) Old 05-26-2018, 02:36 PM
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Please! Don't use Vet Wrap or anything like it--it isn't the stickiness of the tape that counts--and Vet Wrap only sticks to itself which is what makes it dangerous.

At the bottom taping--notice that if you at taping far down on the post and pushing down on the post while pulling up on the ear and wrapping the tape up and around and back down and pushing the back edge of the ear forward--you can safely pull the tape tight and stick it to the post where you started. This will NOT cut off circulation because you are not tightly wrapping the tape in a circle. The combination of wrapping the tape in what amounts to a oval (or teardrop) shape provides enough 'give' that it doesn't cut off the circulation.

PS I know it sounds like you need three hands to do what I'm describing but I promise it can be done with two hands.

Good luck--the new posting instruction by Greenkouki are great but don't use vet wrap.
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post #24 of 27 (permalink) Old 05-26-2018, 02:40 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dobebug View Post
Please! Don't use Vet Wrap or anything like it--it isn't the stickiness of the tape that counts--and Vet Wrap only sticks to itself which is what makes it dangerous.

At the bottom taping--notice that if you at taping far down on the post and pushing down on the post while pulling up on the ear and wrapping the tape up and around and back down and pushing the back edge of the ear forward--you can safely pull the tape tight and stick it to the post where you started. This will NOT cut off circulation because you are not tightly wrapping the tape in a circle. The combination of wrapping the tape in what amounts to a oval (or teardrop) shape provides enough 'give' that it doesn't cut off the circulation.

PS I know it sounds like you need three hands to do what I'm describing but I promise it can be done with two hands.

Good luck--the new posting instruction by Greenkouki are great but don't use vet wrap.
Ahh okay, no to the vet wrap then! I see what you mean!!

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post #25 of 27 (permalink) Old 05-26-2018, 03:07 PM
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"Yep, I use 1/2 inch!"

I didn't even realize Zonas came in 1/2 inch widths. I always see (and use) 1 inch Zonas. I don't know if that's part of your issue. Still... I would use 1 inch Zonas.

And, I second what dobebug told you. No self amalgamating tape. Yeah... It seems to solve a bunch of problems, but very often it creates way more serious issues

John
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