HELP with Posting year old Dobe - Doberman Forum : Doberman Breed Dog Forums
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post #1 of 24 (permalink) Old 09-04-2016, 02:00 PM Thread Starter
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HELP with Posting year old Dobe

Hello,

I have a Doberman who is a little less than a year old now, I got his ears cropped when he was around 10 weeks old
at very reputable vet here in Northern California whom had great reviews from others. But as soon as I took a look at his ears after they had healed I and many other noticed that one ear looked slightly off from the other and looks like they had cut too much off. Now realizing I made the mistake by going to that vet, I am still having trouble with his ears. My Doberman has been very stubborn with the whole posting process and will do anything he can to get the tape or whatever we are using off of his ears. We have tried using tampons, many kinds of different tapes, and many different ways to get his ears to stand. I am now using something that I have made similar to the ear halo, but it doesn't seem to be doing the trick either. His ears will bend back towards his tail and then go floppy after awhile. I have started him on some Vitamin C to see if that will help, so we will see. For awhile now however only one of his ears will stand on occasion, either when he is excited or when he hears someone outside, other than that it goes back to being floppy. But the one ear in which the vet cut wrong has not been able to stand at all. Can anyone give any advice on what I can do, or any suggestions that might help?

Thank you so much

James
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post #2 of 24 (permalink) Old 09-04-2016, 02:33 PM
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James, welcome to DT

Can you post some photos of your posting job and how the ears are standing without posts? There is a good tutorial on the backer rod posting method here:
https://www.dobermantalk.com/ear-crop...my-method.html
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post #3 of 24 (permalink) Old 09-04-2016, 03:23 PM
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in case you do not know a doberman can fold his ears back and also out to the sides looks kind of like a chicken wing.

The only time his ears are up and pointy is when he is alert.
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post #4 of 24 (permalink) Old 09-04-2016, 04:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmyt925 View Post
Hello,

I have a Doberman who is a little less than a year old now, I got his ears cropped when he was around 10 weeks old
at very reputable vet here in Northern California whom had great reviews from others. But as soon as I took a look at his ears after they had healed I and many other noticed that one ear looked slightly off from the other and looks like they had cut too much off. Now realizing I made the mistake by going to that vet, I am still having trouble with his ears. My Doberman has been very stubborn with the whole posting process and will do anything he can to get the tape or whatever we are using off of his ears. We have tried using tampons, many kinds of different tapes, and many different ways to get his ears to stand. I am now using something that I have made similar to the ear halo, but it doesn't seem to be doing the trick either. His ears will bend back towards his tail and then go floppy after awhile. I have started him on some Vitamin C to see if that will help, so we will see. For awhile now however only one of his ears will stand on occasion, either when he is excited or when he hears someone outside, other than that it goes back to being floppy. But the one ear in which the vet cut wrong has not been able to stand at all. Can anyone give any advice on what I can do, or any suggestions that might help?

Thank you so much
I can probably help but I need to see pictures of ears (close ups-side and front).

The halo and the various home made versions of it are not the most likely thing to help get problem ears up-they are all just versions of a very old technique called a "rack" which wasn't very effective either. Fairly short crops are almost the only thing they work on.

Were the people who recommended this vet Doberman breeders and owners?

Where in Northern California are you--I might be able to find you someone close to take look at the ears and help you with the posting.

Have you been consistent in posting his ears--dogs who have not been posted all the time sometimes are difficult to restart posting on.

I think the tampon method is harder to get to work than the calking rod method (the sticky that greenkouki put up for you) but both work and I've used both.

Frankly the stickiness of the tape is far less important than the placement of the post in the ear. Zonas tape by Johnson & Johnson (which you can get either from your vet or order on line--google it) or Johnson & Johnson Coach Sports Tape which is generally available in local drug store (around here some of the Walgreens carry it and some of the Walmarts--the Zonas is available in 1" and 2". The Sports tape is almost always 1-1/2".

These are low tack (deliberately not very sticky) breathable cloth tapes and thats what you want to use.

Dogs who fight to get posts out of their ears almost always do so because the post is not inserted all the way down in the base of the ear-so it moves easily which rubs and is a constant irritant. Predictably they will do almost anything to get it out.

The caulking rod can be trimmed to fit snugly in the base of the ear canal and if you have back taped it you should be able to push the bottom off te post (which I pad with a little cotton taped to the bottom of the post) twisting it a little as you push it down to seat it. Then continue to push down on the post and pull up on the ear and start the tape by sticking it to the exposed back taping a the very bottom of opening of the base. Tape toward the skull (this means you'll tape clockwise on one ear and counter clockwise on the other ear)--the little flap of skin folds toward the ear and will lay where it should if you've started the taping properly. The first wrap of tape should angle up, wrap around the ear and then angle back down--it should meet the beginning point and before you stick it down push the back edge of the ear forward a little to close the gap where you can see the post. This makes it much harder for a puppy to shack a post out.

Start the second wrap of tape overlapping the first one and do the same thing--then put a third wrap the same way--at that point you should be able to stop angling the tape and tape the rest of the ear all the way to the tip.

For a dog who has been able to remove posts from his ears in the past I recommend that the ear be fully taped. The upper taping should not be tight-I just lay it in place-and after all the tape is in place I just squish it with my hand to make sure it's all stuck to the ear.

You can put in a brace if you want--I probably wouldn't for a puppy this old--he should have some reasonable control of his ears but if you put a brace in it goes at the very bottom and should be loose enough to allow the ears to tip out at a 10 and 2 (clock face) position.

Feel free to ask questions if anything here doesn't seem to make sense.

If a post pops out of the base-take it down and start again--it was't positioned or taped correctly. Pushing the post back into the base and trying to fix it with more tape never works and is a great way to creat pockets

Is the ear the you say was cropped "differently" standing at all even at the base? If that ear drops from the base it may not ever stand but you can see it and I can not so pictures would help.

Good luck...

Last edited by dobebug; 09-04-2016 at 04:17 PM.
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post #5 of 24 (permalink) Old 09-04-2016, 07:11 PM Thread Starter
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Just took off the tape from the posting. The tape took off more hair than usual even when I put baby powder to help with that. But here are the pictures of my doberman
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post #6 of 24 (permalink) Old 09-04-2016, 07:14 PM Thread Starter
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And to your earlier message the reviews came from a variety of dog owners including doberman. I live in the SF Bay Area
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dobebug View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmyt925 View Post
Hello,

I have a Doberman who is a little less than a year old now, I got his ears cropped when he was around 10 weeks old
at very reputable vet here in Northern California whom had great reviews from others. But as soon as I took a look at his ears after they had healed I and many other noticed that one ear looked slightly off from the other and looks like they had cut too much off. Now realizing I made the mistake by going to that vet, I am still having trouble with his ears. My Doberman has been very stubborn with the whole posting process and will do anything he can to get the tape or whatever we are using off of his ears. We have tried using tampons, many kinds of different tapes, and many different ways to get his ears to stand. I am now using something that I have made similar to the ear halo, but it doesn't seem to be doing the trick either. His ears will bend back towards his tail and then go floppy after awhile. I have started him on some Vitamin C to see if that will help, so we will see. For awhile now however only one of his ears will stand on occasion, either when he is excited or when he hears someone outside, other than that it goes back to being floppy. But the one ear in which the vet cut wrong has not been able to stand at all. Can anyone give any advice on what I can do, or any suggestions that might help?

Thank you so much
I can probably help but I need to see pictures of ears (close ups-side and front).

The halo and the various home made versions of it are not the most likely thing to help get problem ears up-they are all just versions of a very old technique called a "rack" which wasn't very effective either. Fairly short crops are almost the only thing they work on.

Were the people who recommended this vet Doberman breeders and owners?

Where in Northern California are you--I might be able to find you someone close to take look at the ears and help you with the posting.

Have you been consistent in posting his ears--dogs who have not been posted all the time sometimes are difficult to restart posting on.

I think the tampon method is harder to get to work than the calking rod method (the sticky that greenkouki put up for you) but both work and I've used both.

Frankly the stickiness of the tape is far less important than the placement of the post in the ear. Zonas tape by Johnson & Johnson (which you can get either from your vet or order on line--google it) or Johnson & Johnson Coach Sports Tape which is generally available in local drug store (around here some of the Walgreens carry it and some of the Walmarts--the Zonas is available in 1" and 2". The Sports tape is almost always 1-1/2".

These are low tack (deliberately not very sticky) breathable cloth tapes and thats what you want to use.

Dogs who fight to get posts out of their ears almost always do so because the post is not inserted all the way down in the base of the ear-so it moves easily which rubs and is a constant irritant. Predictably they will do almost anything to get it out.

The caulking rod can be trimmed to fit snugly in the base of the ear canal and if you have back taped it you should be able to push the bottom off te post (which I pad with a little cotton taped to the bottom of the post) twisting it a little as you push it down to seat it. Then continue to push down on the post and pull up on the ear and start the tape by sticking it to the exposed back taping a the very bottom of opening of the base. Tape toward the skull (this means you'll tape clockwise on one ear and counter clockwise on the other ear)--the little flap of skin folds toward the ear and will lay where it should if you've started the taping properly. The first wrap of tape should angle up, wrap around the ear and then angle back down--it should meet the beginning point and before you stick it down push the back edge of the ear forward a little to close the gap where you can see the post. This makes it much harder for a puppy to shack a post out.

Start the second wrap of tape overlapping the first one and do the same thing--then put a third wrap the same way--at that point you should be able to stop angling the tape and tape the rest of the ear all the way to the tip.

For a dog who has been able to remove posts from his ears in the past I recommend that the ear be fully taped. The upper taping should not be tight-I just lay it in place-and after all the tape is in place I just squish it with my hand to make sure it's all stuck to the ear.

You can put in a brace if you want--I probably wouldn't for a puppy this old--he should have some reasonable control of his ears but if you put a brace in it goes at the very bottom and should be loose enough to allow the ears to tip out at a 10 and 2 (clock face) position.

Feel free to ask questions if anything here doesn't seem to make sense.

If a post pops out of the base-take it down and start again--it was't positioned or taped correctly. Pushing the post back into the base and trying to fix it with more tape never works and is a great way to creat pockets

Is the ear the you say was cropped "differently" standing at all even at the base? If that ear drops from the base it may not ever stand but you can see it and I can not so pictures would help.

Good luck...
I live in the SF Bay area
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post #8 of 24 (permalink) Old 09-04-2016, 07:41 PM
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Hard to tell about the right ear, but the left definitely looks like a crop and flop to me. Would it be possible to put your guy on alert (maybe with a high value treat) and take a pic straight on?

John
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post #9 of 24 (permalink) Old 09-04-2016, 09:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmyt925 View Post
Just took off the tape from the posting. The tape took off more hair than usual even when I put baby powder to help with that. But here are the pictures of my doberman
Get yourself some solvent that breaks down adhesives. Uni-solve is great and will prevent the hair loss. I buy mine on eBay. Just saturate a cottonball and then use the cottonball to soak the tape. After 10-15 seconds the tape almost falls off.
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post #10 of 24 (permalink) Old 09-04-2016, 11:40 PM
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This may be controversial as far as this forum goes, but at a year old, if his ears aren't standing the way you want them to, there is not lol inch anyone can do to help you fix this naturally. If you're set on looks, I would recommend a product called "Perma Stay". It's an implant that works in correcting ears in dogs, but is not cheap and making sure there is a vet that installs them near you can be a little troublesome, but if you feel it's worth it, do your thing. If I wanted a specific look I'd go for it.

Otherwise, there's not very much you can do about ears that have already initially developed. A year is too old to correct without surgical implants.


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post #11 of 24 (permalink) Old 09-04-2016, 11:48 PM Thread Starter
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Does this help?
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post #12 of 24 (permalink) Old 09-04-2016, 11:57 PM
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Is that as "up" as they go? Or do they sometimes stand?


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post #13 of 24 (permalink) Old 09-05-2016, 12:05 AM
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Yeah...

At a year old, thats a failure. But what the heck. I guarantee you that he doesn't care. You will have folks coming up to you and thanking you for leaving his ears "natural". LOL

Unless you were planning on showing him, this is so not a big deal. Some of my favorite dogs on this forum are natural or "cropped and flopped".

Pull up MomnaL on the member forum search. Her boy Rip, IMO, is one of the cutest dogs I have ever seen. And boy, does he have some weird ears!

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post #14 of 24 (permalink) Old 09-05-2016, 09:29 AM
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If that's as up as they go I'm afraid posting probably isn't going to change anything. There are surgical alternatives to get them to stand but you would need to see a doberman ear specialist to know if you can move forward with that. I don't mind the cropped and flopped look, it's better than natural ears IMO, but I understand you may feel differently about it.
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post #15 of 24 (permalink) Old 09-05-2016, 09:33 AM
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Hi Jimmyt,

I have to go feed the clinic cats--it's a holiday so this'll be brief.

From what I can see in the pictures it doesn't really look like either ear is what I'd call "standing"--even at the base. I'm inclined to echo John and say this is a definitely crop and flop.

I didn't ask before but did you talk to the vet who did the crop about them while you were posting them--has that vet seen the ears?

I don't know of anyone in the immediate San Francisco area who could be of help but Marj Brooks, a long time breeder and handler of Dobermans is in Santa Rosa and if this were my dog and I really wanted to see if something could be done to help I'd e-mail her ( [email protected] )--and maybe you could arrange for her to make time to take a look at the ears and see what she thinks.

If you don't get an immediate answer remember she may be away at shows and you'd want to do this soon as by the end of the month she'll probably be at the Doberman Nationals which are in the midwest this year. But Marj is better than most for answering quickly and was the DPCA referral person for years. At least she's in the same general part of the same state--and she might be able to put you in touch with someone closer to SanFrancisco.

Good luck...
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His right one will go up on occasion when he gets excited but then will flop back down
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This is what his ears look like this morning
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post #18 of 24 (permalink) Old 09-05-2016, 10:16 AM
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I have to say that at 19 months old we just finished taping Kiri's ears. I didn't think it would ever happen.
I know it each case is different and it may not happen here depending on many variables.
I truly about gave up several times. Breeder would say, 'just keep taping'....

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post #19 of 24 (permalink) Old 09-05-2016, 10:18 AM
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I just saw your last photos. I think with consistent taping the right ear will probably stand. The base doesn't look good on that left ear. I would consult the breeder or vet that did the cropping.

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Quote:
Originally Posted by dobebug View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmyt925 View Post
Hello,

I have a Doberman who is a little less than a year old now, I got his ears cropped when he was around 10 weeks old
at very reputable vet here in Northern California whom had great reviews from others. But as soon as I took a look at his ears after they had healed I and many other noticed that one ear looked slightly off from the other and looks like they had cut too much off. Now realizing I made the mistake by going to that vet, I am still having trouble with his ears. My Doberman has been very stubborn with the whole posting process and will do anything he can to get the tape or whatever we are using off of his ears. We have tried using tampons, many kinds of different tapes, and many different ways to get his ears to stand. I am now using something that I have made similar to the ear halo, but it doesn't seem to be doing the trick either. His ears will bend back towards his tail and then go floppy after awhile. I have started him on some Vitamin C to see if that will help, so we will see. For awhile now however only one of his ears will stand on occasion, either when he is excited or when he hears someone outside, other than that it goes back to being floppy. But the one ear in which the vet cut wrong has not been able to stand at all. Can anyone give any advice on what I can do, or any suggestions that might help?

Thank you so much
I can probably help but I need to see pictures of ears (close ups-side and front).

The halo and the various home made versions of it are not the most likely thing to help get problem ears up-they are all just versions of a very old technique called a "rack" which wasn't very effective either. Fairly short crops are almost the only thing they work on.

Were the people who recommended this vet Doberman breeders and owners?

Where in Northern California are you--I might be able to find you someone close to take look at the ears and help you with the posting.

Have you been consistent in posting his ears--dogs who have not been posted all the time sometimes are difficult to restart posting on.

I think the tampon method is harder to get to work than the calking rod method (the sticky that greenkouki put up for you) but both work and I've used both.

Frankly the stickiness of the tape is far less important than the placement of the post in the ear. Zonas tape by Johnson & Johnson (which you can get either from your vet or order on line--google it) or Johnson & Johnson Coach Sports Tape which is generally available in local drug store (around here some of the Walgreens carry it and some of the Walmarts--the Zonas is available in 1" and 2". The Sports tape is almost always 1-1/2".

These are low tack (deliberately not very sticky) breathable cloth tapes and thats what you want to use.

Dogs who fight to get posts out of their ears almost always do so because the post is not inserted all the way down in the base of the ear-so it moves easily which rubs and is a constant irritant. Predictably they will do almost anything to get it out.

The caulking rod can be trimmed to fit snugly in the base of the ear canal and if you have back taped it you should be able to push the bottom off te post (which I pad with a little cotton taped to the bottom of the post) twisting it a little as you push it down to seat it. Then continue to push down on the post and pull up on the ear and start the tape by sticking it to the exposed back taping a the very bottom of opening of the base. Tape toward the skull (this means you'll tape clockwise on one ear and counter clockwise on the other ear)--the little flap of skin folds toward the ear and will lay where it should if you've started the taping properly. The first wrap of tape should angle up, wrap around the ear and then angle back down--it should meet the beginning point and before you stick it down push the back edge of the ear forward a little to close the gap where you can see the post. This makes it much harder for a puppy to shack a post out.

Start the second wrap of tape overlapping the first one and do the same thing--then put a third wrap the same way--at that point you should be able to stop angling the tape and tape the rest of the ear all the way to the tip.

For a dog who has been able to remove posts from his ears in the past I recommend that the ear be fully taped. The upper taping should not be tight-I just lay it in place-and after all the tape is in place I just squish it with my hand to make sure it's all stuck to the ear.

You can put in a brace if you want--I probably wouldn't for a puppy this old--he should have some reasonable control of his ears but if you put a brace in it goes at the very bottom and should be loose enough to allow the ears to tip out at a 10 and 2 (clock face) position.

Feel free to ask questions if anything here doesn't seem to make sense.

If a post pops out of the base-take it down and start again--it was't positioned or taped correctly. Pushing the post back into the base and trying to fix it with more tape never works and is a great way to creat pockets

Is the ear the you say was cropped "differently" standing at all even at the base? If that ear drops from the base it may not ever stand but you can see it and I can not so pictures would help.

Good luck...

Do you have examples or a link that shows how to do this?
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post #21 of 24 (permalink) Old 09-05-2016, 10:25 AM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by jimmyt925 View Post
Do you have examples or a link that shows how to do this?
No Jimmyt, I don't even post pictures of my dogs here and I don't even know how to do links (as the people who have been trying to help you know and could tell you I'm a damned dinosaur using an old computer system that's dial up and SLOW!)

So I don't have a link that shows me doing this kind of a post but I'll tell you that it isn't very different than the link that greenkouki posted (and which is one of the stickies at the beginning of the section on cropping and posting in the forums. I just gave some more detailed instructions--in writing which you should be able to apply to the calking rod pictures.

I also took a look at the pictures from this morning--and from those--I agree that you could probably get the right ear to stand--it's actually standing but it looks like your dog doesn't like using his ears much--some dogs don't--some dogs hardly ever put their ears down and no dog keeps his ears bolt upright all the time (someone else already posted about that.)

I keep asking questions that would probably help me or someone else give you more help with the ears if you would answer them. So let me try again.

1)Has the vet who did the crop seen the ears recently? Has the breeder seen the ears recently? Has ANYONE who has successfully posted ears on a Doberman seen the ears recently?

2)Were the ears down overnight? Let me rephrase the question--did you take the ears down from being posted yesterday, take the pictures that you posted yesterday and leave them down overnight? And then you took pictures this morning?

3)Have you, while you've been posting his ears been diligent about keeping them posted ALL THE TIME? That is to say, do you post the ears for 4 or 5 days, take them down, clean them, and put them back up in an hour?

I understand that you've had problems with this dog trying to get the posts out of his ears but 4)Have you, when he gets a post out, take the post out of the ear and promptly repost it.

If this isn't what you've been doing, it's what you should start doing. It's possble that if you did that you could possibly get both ears to stand. The left ear isn't totally dropped at the base--I gotten ears like this to stand but it isn't a quick process and it can take months. And it would help if you tried contacting Marj Brooks, who is very knowlegeable, and who is in the general area and probably knows every breeder in California, would be able to give you the name of someone in or near San Francisco who could help you with the ears.

At this stage of the game I think you need help--help by someone who can see the dog in person and show you exactly how to post the ears to give you the best chance of getting them to stand properly--and be close enough to be available to help you with every posting if necessary.

If you weren't 1100 miles away I'd be happy to give you a hand--but I am--so that's out as a solution.

And I'll be very honest with you--and I could be wrong so feel free to tell me if this isn't the case, the ears look to me like the results novice posters get when they get impatient and don't do things "by the numbers". Post the ears and if the dog gets them down--they don't post them again immediately. Give up on one method and try other things and have similar problems and give up on them too.

One thing that is always true about posting ears is that there are many methds that work BUT you have to keep posting them, even when you don't see instant results--and you can't cheat leave them down "just overnight" or leave them down because one ear is sort of standing. It takes patience and it takes perserverance to get ears to stand properly. And I've had dogs that took three postings and were done but I've had a lot more that were posted for months and months and months--one of mine was 1 point away from his AKC championship before one of his ears was actually standing well. I took him to shows with that ear posted and took it down minutes before he went in the ring and put it back up as soon as he had made his last appearance in the ring.

So if you want to answer the questions that I keep asking maybe I or someone else can make some suggestions but if not--good luck.

Last edited by dobebug; 09-05-2016 at 01:30 PM.
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post #23 of 24 (permalink) Old 09-06-2016, 01:23 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
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This may be controversial as far as this forum goes, but at a year old, if his ears aren't standing the way you want them to, there is not lol inch anyone can do to help you fix this naturally. If you're set on looks, I would recommend a product called "Perma Stay". It's an implant that works in correcting ears in dogs, but is not cheap and making sure there is a vet that installs them near you can be a little troublesome, but if you feel it's worth it, do your thing. If I wanted a specific look I'd go for it.

Otherwise, there's not very much you can do about ears that have already initially developed. A year is too old to correct without surgical implants.


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Do you know of any good vets that do this type of procedure in Northern California that come highly recommendable?
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post #24 of 24 (permalink) Old 09-06-2016, 07:19 PM
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Hi ans welcome. If I were you I would go to Doberman Pinscher Club of America | Home and look for a local chapter club and see if someone there would be willing to help you. My boy knocked his posts out close to every other day for a while and I had to be vigilant about reposting immediately. Using the bridge always worked with my two. One thing to remember is we are training the ears to stand. Each hour (or less) ears are allowed to flop means a day or two more of training so never let them flop. I've known some Dobes that have posted for well over a year and a half so you have some time yet still.
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