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post #1 of 18 (permalink) Old 08-23-2020, 11:56 AM Thread Starter
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Out of country breeders

Hello, I'm in FL, U.S.A and will be looking for a european doberman puppy at Christmas. I've started looking for breeders and had a few questions.
On facebook while looking, I've noticed a lot of breeders from Serbia.
Why does it seem to be so many breeders there?
How common is it to buy and ship a doberman from outside the U.S?
How can you tell legitimate breeders from scammers(seen many so far)?
Is there pros and cons to buying out of the country vs inside the U.S. as far as quality, etc..I noticed alot of breeders dogs have been imported
If this has already been covered, please point me to the post
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post #2 of 18 (permalink) Old 08-23-2020, 12:17 PM
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Lots of info here on finding good breeders. Check this one out:

https://www.dobermantalk.com/breedin...e-breeder.html

The American vs European thing will be discussed as long as there are dobes being bred in both areas.


For me personally, one of the biggest factors between choosing Euro vs American dobes, when you don't have any need for a particular specialized trait (where one might do better than the other) is the ease of finding a reputable breeder. It is so important that you find a breeder who can serve as your resource for the life of your dog, and here in the US, it's much easier to find a good breeder who breeds American bloodlines. There are definitely good Euro breeders out there, but not as many.

The term "European bred" can be a marketing gimmick; there are bad breeder/greeders out there who are using the Euro tag line as a selling point to mislead people into thinking that their dogs are something special that are worth paying extra for. Unsuspecting folks think bigger is better, and that a Euro bred dog is automatically more massive and has fewer health problems with a US dog. But often the folks who are selling their dogs with that tagline aren't using particularly good breeding stock and are counting on roping in the unsuspecting buyer for their "more authentic doberman" Often they even charge more because their bloodlnes are "special" (their words)
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post #3 of 18 (permalink) Old 08-23-2020, 12:38 PM
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See below an old post of mine but I still enjoy my time spent with my dog Hoss’s breeder.
Jim and Susan Voltz have a lot of information for you about importing and those types of questions.
They area near Gainesville.
Great people in my opinion and Susan is always available for me when I have questions. When I email her its always a next day response if not sooner.





Interesting article from a person that obtained their Doberman from the same breeder Hoss comes from.....Charismatic Doberman's ..........although previously they were breeders up north ......now they are close to Gainesville Florida with a big ranch .......to this very day I still maintain communications with Susan .....she always responds to me promptly and answers any questions ...and no matter what the questions are...... she never hesitates to help me understand.
**************************************************
The Doberman named Janggo!
BY MARIA GILDA RACELIS
Real Estate Broker/Owner with Home Buyers Realty, LLC-Manchester, Bolton. Vernon,Ellington 0788174
EMAIL SHORT URL
Share:January 06, 2019 03:36 AM
Featured Image
His name was Janggo. Janggo was the last of the litter sired by Tri-International Champion Wiking di Perlanera. His mother’s name sounded more like a human boxer rather than a doberman dam’s Moonlight Rocky Ridge Shirley.

It was in 2004 when my 40th birthday was coming up in six weeks. I had $1800 to spend for that milestone. Four decades of ups and downs and twists and turns.

I saved up that amount for a brand new Louis Vuitton Manhattan PM. But somewhere in the midst of purse yearning was an image of a black and tan doberman. The choices were not comparable but their visual quality hearkens back to my innermost desire.

Why doberman and not a tiny toy dog like bichon frise, chihuahua or pomeranian? Part of my growing up years was spent with my grandparents from my mother’s side. They used to have a german shepherd, mixed white named Leslie, and doberman. Doberman has always fascinated me even as a child. So I knew back then that this would be the kind of dog to have in my lifetime.

In search of a reputable breeder, we ended up in Chaplin Connecticut where Susan and David Volz operated under Charismatic Doberman which is now based in Florida. We were greeted politely and ushered in to our seats. My heart started pounding as I scouted the room for any signs of doberman activity.

Susan asked first who would be handling the doberman. I confidently said, “I will.” She asked further if I have any experience with dobermans. “My grandparents had one and I grew up with dogs. Big dogs,” I retorted.

Susan excused herself and went to another room. I wondered if her question was a qualifying inquiry before she would decide to let me have a doberman. She came back in with a heavy black and tan female doberman. She introduced her to me and then to my son. I knew she was watching our reaction, especially mine.

After a few minutes of interaction, she went back to the same room with the dog. A few minutes passed when she appeared again with a male doberman. This one was bigger, mean-looking and muscular. But his looks didn’t faze us. I was quite familiar with their deceiving appearance. Susan brought the dobie close to us for another meet-and-greet routine. Then they went back to where they came from. My excitement was compounding as I felt that the next one to show up from that same room would be my doberman puppy.

When the door opened, my heart leaped. Then my joy overflowed when a small sprinting puppy with two tampons sticking out of both sides of his head came dashing up to his soon-to-be mom. With wide arms open, I held his body closely. With his head propped up, his eyes stared at me. I gently touched his face while my eyes were peeled on his. Then I softly said to him, “Hello son.”

Our first dog Miyake was not too happy about having a new member in the household. Let’s face it. Sibling rivalry would not come in as a surprise. I tried to be fair and equal with my treatment to my boys but favoritism became clear and obvious as the days passed by that even my human son got jealous.

When Janggo joined the family, he was much smaller than Miyake which was a year older. Miyake was a mixed beagle and labrador according to the Animal Humane Society. Miyake and Janggo engaged in friendly plays while the dobie was still a puppy. I saw Miyake grabbing Janggo’s toys to assert his stature as the alpha male. It did not take long for his status to be taken over. Some tensions and quarrels transpired to establish who was the true alpha. The doberman prevailed, of course.

As a Realtor, I had the privilege to show houses with my boys in the car. Janggo loved the back seat as poking his head out of the sun roof was his favorite. Miyake would take the front passenger seat. When I was not driving, they hung out with me either in the home office or on the bed watching television.

We had a glorious and happy life together. The family’s first vacation was in the lake house in Maine. Both boys swam in the water. It was Miyake’s first swim by choice and Janggo’s, by accident. He fell off the dock while checking out what was moving underneath the slits.

Janggo had always been the constant trouble maker. He would chase the mallards like a crazy hunting dog. He ran away from me when he saw a squirrel or raccoon in sight in Belltown orchard. I broke down in tears when he disappeared in the woods for a long time. I frantically called his name while walking up and the down the hill. There was no sign of him anywhere. I went back to the house, took the car out of the garage and drove around the nearby streets with the car window opened to let the wind carry my voice calling out his name.

My car plodded the pavement of Belltown back and forth several times when I decided to come home with tears welling up nonstop hoping that Janggo would be at the house waiting for me.

But he was not there. My heart was getting heavier in desperation. Then I saw my boy scampering up the hill from the opposite direction of where he disappeared. I was mad at him for making me worry dreadfully. But then having him back drowned that anger instantly.

Life with Janggo was never dull. You never knew what trouble he would cause next. He was skunked one night that my son had to rush to the pet store to get a special shampoo to remove the odor. It did not go away completely no matter how hard I scrubbed and washed. I took him to the groomer the next day. When I picked him up, the groomer could not hide his indignation. He said I should have warned him that my boy was skunked. The smell filled the whole room once they started washing him, he added. I looked at him with menacing eyes. He could have said it in a more diplomatic manner. I paid the fee without the usual generous tip and turned around with my dobie tagging along. “Good Boy Janggo. Good boy stinking up that place. We never set foot in that establishment ever gain.

Janggo loved playing catch. He was very good at catching golf balls with his jaws. He would jump up in the air with agility to catch it, and swing back from the ground to give the ball back to either of the two pitchers with majestic pride.

He was a very curious dog. One time I saw him with a squirrel pinned under his paw. He was just playing with it but with his strong legs, he was slowly murdering the poor creature. My instinct overpowered my common sense when I stopped Janggo from scratching the poor rodent. I picked up the squirrel only to get bitten by his sharp teeth piercing through my fore fingernail and into the flesh. It cost me a visit to the emergency room and anti-tetanus shot.

Signs of slowing down was showing up in Janggo in 2015. I bought an SUV to accommodate his needs. My coupe was too tight and uncomfortable for his extremities and aging body. He could still jump up the SUV up to the last months of 2016. But in 2017, I started helping him up to the back of the car by putting his front legs first then lifting his butt up next. This went on until May 2018. We stopped going for rides because he started defecating even if the ride was only for fifteen minutes. It was frustrating for both of us. I could tell he was not happy about having incidents.

The thought of losing him would visit me as I saw his steps going wobbly. He would fall down frequently and standing up was only possible with human support. His bark was also getting weaker. The solid and strong tone was gone.

When I lost Miyake in 2013, it was an extremely excruciating moment because I was not expecting losing him on that day. Miyake was only ten.

Although Janggo was a bully to his brother, I knew he missed him. Months passed by before I was able to recover from the agony as Miyake was the very first one to go in the household. Janggo’s presence prodded my early recovery.

I could not fathom the pain of losing another child, of losing Janggo. The thought would come but I would shake it off quickly.

In August 7, 2018, that dreadful day came… a day short to celebrate his 14th birthday. He would have been 14 years old in August 8, 2018. Until now, I would burst into tears whenever I think of him. There was a piece of me that was taken away by his passing.

They say time heals all wounds. Time is the best elixir for all sorts of pain. Despite the truth in the saying, the time that I also wish for is the time I see him again…. along with Miyake, Minnie and Momo.

For now, play eternally in the beautiful meadows my child. Forever, you will be in my heart.
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post #4 of 18 (permalink) Old 08-23-2020, 02:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thom114 View Post
Hello, I'm in FL, U.S.A and will be looking for a european doberman puppy at Christmas. I've started looking for breeders and had a few questions.
On facebook while looking, I've noticed a lot of breeders from Serbia.
Why does it seem to be so many breeders there?
How common is it to buy and ship a doberman from outside the U.S?
How can you tell legitimate breeders from scammers(seen many so far)?
Is there pros and cons to buying out of the country vs inside the U.S. as far as quality, etc..I noticed alot of breeders dogs have been imported
If this has already been covered, please point me to the post
I'm going to try and address your post line by line...

First, I think your "by Christmas" timeline is probably unrealistic, if you'd like to get a well-bred puppy by a breeder that will stand behind their dogs, has done the appropriate health testing, and is a good, ethical breeder. Especially right now, most breeders have extensive waiting lists. I'd encourage you to be flexible and willing to wait.

Facebook is FULL of people breeding dogs that may not have the knowledge of the breed to really be breeding with the careful planning that it takes to ensure their puppies are going to have a solid temperament and the best chance at a long, healthy life. Especially when you are looking at "Euro" breeders you are going to see a lot of people who have simply bought imports and bred them together, without understanding any of the dogs in the pedigree, knowing nothing of their temperaments, the health behind them, or whether the dogs compliment each other. It's a roll of the dice. I think you deserve better than that. Additionally, ask yourself what kinds of puppies are shipped over here with very little questions asked by the breeder about who they are sold to? Not the top quality puppies, that's for sure.

People certainly do import dogs. It can be successful, but the success depends a lot on who is doing the importing and how educated they are on who they are importing from, how much they understand about both the breed, and the breeder they are buying from. If you are someone new to the breed, I wouldn't recommend you do it.

The breeders you are looking at aren't the type of breeders we'd recommend here on this forum. Like I said above, they are people simply buying imported dogs and breeding them. We'd recommend you look at breeders who have a good knowledge of the breed - start by going to the United Doberman Club, or the Doberman Pinscher Club of America. Look for a quality breeder, don't just look for a certain "look" of dog or buy into stereotypes of Euro verses North American. You are MUCH better off finding a good breeder who can be a support to you.
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post #5 of 18 (permalink) Old 08-23-2020, 03:09 PM Thread Starter
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I understand,

Wether its bred in Eurorpe or U.S., I know I want the European doberan style dog. Where its bred doesnt matter too much me, but I do want the quality, temperament and bloodlines..but i do not want to get scammed or buy a puppy that someones trying to build up to be the best, when its not.. kinda of like you were saying
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post #6 of 18 (permalink) Old 08-24-2020, 01:30 AM
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I don't know any breeders in Serbia, and I also don't know why there seem to be a lot of breeders there. I will take a guess that one of the reasons is that they can still crop and dock there, and exporting puppies would be a pretty good income for a country that has a pretty low income level. Serbia is not yet part of the EU (European Union) - don't know how much it will change once they are. I spent a couple of days in Northern Serbia a couple of years ago - lovely people, money is very tight for the residents. My husband had business there before we went on a river cruise out of Budapest
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post #7 of 18 (permalink) Old 08-24-2020, 07:37 AM
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Thanks Melbred and MeadowCat
I understand,

Wether its bred in Eurorpe or U.S., I know I want the European doberan style dog. Where its bred doesnt matter too much me, but I do want the quality, temperament and bloodlines..but i do not want to get scammed or buy a puppy that someones trying to build up to be the best, when its not.. kinda of like you were saying
I really recommend you look at the United Doberman Club. https://www.facebook.com/uniteddobermanclub/
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& Sirai's Golden Masquerade ORT L1V L1E L2C L2I NW2 NW3-C NW3-E RATI SOG DOG TKN SIN SEN WAC
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What you do makes a difference, and you have to decide what kind of difference you want to make.”
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post #8 of 18 (permalink) Old 08-24-2020, 07:38 AM
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Charismatic dobermans is not a reputable breeder please don't recommend them
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post #9 of 18 (permalink) Old 08-24-2020, 07:57 AM
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There are very few euro breeders that I would trust, and nearly none that come from Serbia. I'd look at maybe Sant Kreal or Via Felicium. Although there is one breeder breeding some kind of doberman, mastiff, dane mix and trying to pass it off as a doberman. Normally I'd suggest that you go to a dog show so you can see both types but with Covid that's not really possible. Most of the hype on the internet regarding the difference isn't necessarily true. It's more BYB hype.
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post #10 of 18 (permalink) Old 08-24-2020, 08:06 AM
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I think this thread is a pretty good read, too: https://www.dobermantalk.com/show-ri...-american.html

We talk a lot about how the differences between Euro and American aren't really overstated, especially when you see them shown in the same way: https://www.dobermantalk.com/show-ri...-american.html
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post #11 of 18 (permalink) Old 08-24-2020, 06:21 PM
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This is not the best place to ask about European Dobermans as most of the list mavens are against European. However, that does not mean that I necessarily disagree with much of what they have said to you.

First, think about it? Do you really think that a good breeders will sell their best puppies to someone that they have never met and lives 6,000 miles away? These people in Eastern Europe, no matter how well intended cannot help you from that distance. There are a few good ones, but most of the good breeders I know in Europe do not, in general, sell to the US because of the difficulty of meeting the buyers and they have enough demand for their puppies in Europe that they do not need to. As for the others, if you breed 6 to 12 litters a year, you cannot be so picky about whom you sell to.

You will be much better off finding a breeder in the US that can help mentor you. Unfortunately, as many of the mavens have indicated, many are not sufficiently experienced to help you either. I don't necessarily think that they are bad people, but they are fairly novice themselves and were never mentored correctly. Then, they seem to congregate in groups similar to themselves and think that breeding dogs live livestock is acceptable. The United Doberman Club breeders directory would be a good place to start.

There are good and bad breeders on both sides of the Atlantic, but it should be easier for you to find a good one here in the US that can help mentor you. However, I hope you understand that there is a significant difference between a European working type of Doberman and the European show type of Doberman. I would say that there are more serious European working type Doberman breeders here in the US than the ones that claim to be European show breeders (frequently over-sized, etc). Then there are even fewer that breed for the Doberman that can compete in both show and working.

It looks to me as though you have a lot of home work to do.

Good Luck!

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post #12 of 18 (permalink) Old 08-24-2020, 07:03 PM Thread Starter
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Thank you Kansadobe!
Any advice is greatly appreciated.
Funny, I actually emailed you the other day i believe.

For me, right now, the "show quality" is not quite as important as the working and temperment part of the breed.
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post #13 of 18 (permalink) Old 08-26-2020, 10:07 AM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kansadobe View Post
This is not the best place to ask about European Dobermans as most of the list mavens are against European. However, that does not mean that I necessarily disagree with much of what they have said to you.

First, think about it? Do you really think that a good breeders will sell their best puppies to someone that they have never met and lives 6,000 miles away? These people in Eastern Europe, no matter how well intended cannot help you from that distance. There are a few good ones, but most of the good breeders I know in Europe do not, in general, sell to the US because of the difficulty of meeting the buyers and they have enough demand for their puppies in Europe that they do not need to. As for the others, if you breed 6 to 12 litters a year, you cannot be so picky about whom you sell to.

You will be much better off finding a breeder in the US that can help mentor you. Unfortunately, as many of the mavens have indicated, many are not sufficiently experienced to help you either. I don't necessarily think that they are bad people, but they are fairly novice themselves and were never mentored correctly. Then, they seem to congregate in groups similar to themselves and think that breeding dogs live livestock is acceptable. The United Doberman Club breeders directory would be a good place to start.

There are good and bad breeders on both sides of the Atlantic, but it should be easier for you to find a good one here in the US that can help mentor you. However, I hope you understand that there is a significant difference between a European working type of Doberman and the European show type of Doberman. I would say that there are more serious European working type Doberman breeders here in the US than the ones that claim to be European show breeders (frequently over-sized, etc). Then there are even fewer that breed for the Doberman that can compete in both show and working.

It looks to me as though you have a lot of home work to do.

Good Luck!
I have another question, which I'm pretty sure has been covered. Because you mentioned mentored

Being a breeder.
What does it take.
How does one get established.
How would someone be mentored.
What type of time is needed.
What are the risks
What are the costs

Right now, I know I dont have the time. Maybe 7, 8 years down the road, it might be something to look at.

I've bred blue heelers before, but nothing special, mainly just for farmers and locals. And it wasnt serious...I understood bloodlines/ champions, appearances, but not the health, testing, individaul temperaments..not really breeding to improve the health of the breed, not intentionally, I just didnt know.. I really wasnt knowledgable, until i started questioning other breeders on why their dogs were so much, and looked at all the time and costs they had put in.
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Last edited by Thom114; 08-26-2020 at 10:09 AM.
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post #14 of 18 (permalink) Old 08-26-2020, 10:42 AM
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Out of country breeders
Hello, I'm in FL, U.S.A and will be looking for a european doberman puppy at Christmas. I've started looking for breeders and had a few questions. On facebook while looking, I've noticed a lot of breeders from Serbia. Why does it seem to be so many breeders there? How common is it to buy and ship a doberman from outside the U.S? How can you tell legitimate breeders from scammers(seen many so far)? Is there pros and cons to buying out of the country vs inside the U.S. as far as quality, etc..I noticed alot of breeders dogs have been imported If this has already been covered, please point me to the post

Dear all

I am a British born Serbian (granddad left when the communists took power after world war 2, I was lucky! &#x1f600

I always wanted a dobie ever since I watched the tv series Magnum P.I. when I was a child needless to say I’ve now got the dog but not the ferrari he drove, yet!!!

Four years ago, I had the opportunity to work remotely and as my good wife is from Serbia proper, we decided to take our young daughters there for language and cultural reasons notwithstanding that its better for family life, less crime etc.

I bought Tara Josephine from a breeder after doing much research and can honestly say that there are many reputable breeders in Serbia. Most of the best breeders are from European champions and are good quality dogs.

We have only just relocated back to the U.K. owing to covid and Tara came by road and I’m glad to say that she is thriving here! If you want any pointers to some breeders please let me know.

I signed up to this forum a couple of years ago as I thought, well its American, it’s bound to have a lot of good info and experienced owners and breeders and I wasn’t wrong, its been invaluable for me and thanks to all who have posted and shared their stories.
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post #15 of 18 (permalink) Old 08-26-2020, 11:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kansadobe View Post
This is not the best place to ask about European Dobermans as most of the list mavens are against European. However, that does not mean that I necessarily disagree with much of what they have said to you.

First, think about it? Do you really think that a good breeders will sell their best puppies to someone that they have never met and lives 6,000 miles away? These people in Eastern Europe, no matter how well intended cannot help you from that distance. There are a few good ones, but most of the good breeders I know in Europe do not, in general, sell to the US because of the difficulty of meeting the buyers and they have enough demand for their puppies in Europe that they do not need to. As for the others, if you breed 6 to 12 litters a year, you cannot be so picky about whom you sell to.

You will be much better off finding a breeder in the US that can help mentor you. Unfortunately, as many of the mavens have indicated, many are not sufficiently experienced to help you either. I don't necessarily think that they are bad people, but they are fairly novice themselves and were never mentored correctly. Then, they seem to congregate in groups similar to themselves and think that breeding dogs live livestock is acceptable. The United Doberman Club breeders directory would be a good place to start.

There are good and bad breeders on both sides of the Atlantic, but it should be easier for you to find a good one here in the US that can help mentor you. However, I hope you understand that there is a significant difference between a European working type of Doberman and the European show type of Doberman. I would say that there are more serious European working type Doberman breeders here in the US than the ones that claim to be European show breeders (frequently over-sized, etc). Then there are even fewer that breed for the Doberman that can compete in both show and working.

It looks to me as though you have a lot of home work to do.

Good Luck!
“These Eastern Europeans”

Actually, Serbia is in South East Europe, that’s quite a difference. But then “you Americans “ only have passports for 5% of your population! 😂
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post #16 of 18 (permalink) Old 08-26-2020, 02:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Radovan View Post
“These Eastern Europeans”

Actually, Serbia is in South East Europe, that’s quite a difference. But then “you Americans “ only have passports for 5% of your population! 😂
You don't need to give me a geography lesson. I have probably traveled the world as much or more than you have. Since most the readers on this forum are North Americans I tried to make the reference they could identify with. In this part of the world, any "former eastern block", former communist country is usually considered eastern Europe.

That is not the point anyway. The point is a breeder living in another culture that far away cannot be as much help as a breeder closer to the buyer.
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post #17 of 18 (permalink) Old 08-26-2020, 04:12 PM
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i would reccommend that you surf around the DPCA website, www.dpca.org, seek out a chapter club in your region. Also go to www.akc.org, seek out an all-breed club, obedience club, agility trial. Another GREAT Doberman resource is United Doberman Club, www.uniteddobermanclub.com The respective Code of Ethics in BOTH the DPCA & UDC should give you an idea of what a reputable Doberman breeder is. Also you can learn more by volunteering for Doberman specialty events--temperament testing events, conformation shows, performance trials and developing a Doberman Network of friends. READ the Doberman breed standard CONTRARY to Urban/cyber legends both the DPCA & DV breed standards are more ALIKE than Different. GOOD LUCK in your Doberman pursuit
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Radovan View Post
“These Eastern Europeans”

Actually, Serbia is in South East Europe, that’s quite a difference. But then “you Americans “ only have passports for 5% of your population! 😂
My husband and I have been to northern Serbia - Subotica (hope I spelled that right). His company has a facility there, and we visited for a couple of days in 2018 before going on a river cruise out of Budapest. We were supposed to do a 2 week Mediterranean cruise this past March/April that would have had 2 stops in Croatia. It is rescheduled for October of 2021 - fingers crossed. We both love Europe and have been several times - pretty much all over. So far, our favorite city is Prague. For Americans, travel to Europe is expensive compared to the Caribbean and Mexico..... not to mention that our country is huge - so travel within the US is what most people do.
My husbands favorite take away from Serbia was a home brewed bottle of Apricot Rakija - Ziveli!
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AKC GRCH/UKC CH Fitzmar's Command A Minute CGC "Harvard"
Fitzmar's Victory Hop Devil RN CGC "Jezebel"
Ch Jalyn One Moment Please "Mabel"
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