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300 dollar question

4K views 51 replies 13 participants last post by  princess bella 
#1 ·
Hi,
Loki's neuter time is coming up. There are 2 reputable low cost neuter clinics within 15 miles.
Regular vet charges 475 including some pre-testing blood work. The clinics charge 160-190.

Just asking which do most people choose? We are not rich, but not completely strapped either. Insurance won't cover it.

We love our vet but also like supporting orgs that try to limit the euthanasia of unwanted animals.

BTW Loki is looking really great, his fur is healthy:) He does pull a lot when excited....
Thanks for your input!
Loki Pb and Me
 
#4 ·
Ouch. Glad I don't live in a big city. My vet charges about $100 for a spay, with bloodwork running another $70 or so.

In my opinion, if he's healthy, not vWD affected, and doesn't have retained testicles (depending on where it's hiding, anyway), I'd go for the lower cost clinic.
 
#5 ·
I feel it's my duty to speak up for my good buddy Loki !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! It seems to me that everybody that has replied are -- Well -- Women ! AND all said to go the cheap route !!!!

Now like I said - I'm looking out for Loki's best interest here and being a guy - I Think you gals need to be more sensitive to Loki !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Were not talking chowed hash here !!

I think that poor Loki should get the 5 star treatment on his up coming operation !

Remember Loki -- You've got a friend !

And ole Doc will do what I can do for my friend :wink2::grin2:
 
#6 ·
This is a routine procedure for vets BUT that is quite a difference in price.
When Hoss had this procedure what raised the price was anesthesia (calculated by the dogs weight) wondering if that lower price presented to you encompassed the entire procedure including anesthesia.
Anyway my regular vet is my go to as Hoss is familiar with her and the clinic.
But that is quite a price difference for sure......I can understand it would be tempting due to the savings.
Good luck.
 
#7 ·
There is a lot to be said for speed and practice, though. I used to work at a small town, low cost clinic run by a vet who also had a hospital in the nearby city. Sometimes we would do nearly as many spays and neuters in a day as he did an entire week at the big hospital. And that was on top of seeing patients in the three hours he was there, four days a week.
 
#10 · (Edited)
There is actually a difference between the low cost clinics and your regular vet.

While there isn't anything wrong with low-cost clinics, they don't do the same types of pre-surgery screening and work-ups that your normal vet will do, and they don't have the same kind of post-surgery monitoring. I can say this with confidence, as I have friends who work as staff in those clinics. They provide a great service for those that need them, and I don't hesitate to recommend them for those that truly can't afford to go to their regular vet. However, I wouldn't use one purely out of the desire to save money on the cost of surgery when I could afford to go to my regular vet. There's a reason it costs more to do a full surgery at your regular vet, and I would personally chose that level of care every single time.

Edited to add - this is a very good description of the common differences between surgery at your regular vet verses a low cost clinic. Please take time to read it: https://drandyroark.com/the-difference/
 
#16 ·
Boy, oh boy--it'd be nice if every vet clinic--low cost or regular neighborhood vet or high profile specialty clinic--any of them that do surgeries had a hand out to go along with any estimate of cost for a surgical procedure, especially spays and neuters. That link should be a must read--excellent information. Thanks MeadowCat for including it.

Wow>> thanks everybody for your input! I did read that article, Meadow cat, and will get my husband to read it and this thread too. Ecin especially, I hear you<>! All the cost are calculated by his weight which is 90 lbs. I think I will call and to ask specifically what is provided by each option. I was thinking that the blood work testing done at the vet could become a sort of a "baseline" of information on Loki.

Are all untested male 1.5 year old Dobies considered high risk then??? Loki is untested, his parents are unknown and his testes are well descended.

We are neutering him , well just to be reasonable , to insure he doesn't ever pass on his likely (bad) byb genes , and hopefully to protect our other dog Bella from his pandering sexist instincts , such as humping and other semi aggressive un-knightly behaviors , and to cut back on the piss- marking. Not that she would put up with any of that bs. but she is 20 lbs smaller!
Princess Bella--I do want to add something here when it comes to reasons for neutering males. Some of the things you mention as reasons for neutering aren't really solved by doing that. Yes, it will keep your Loki from breeding a bitch and producing another litter of puppies with at least 1/2 unknown problems since he was a 'found' dog. But humping, sniffing and definitely marking are at least as much training issues as not.

I start out with every puppy as a potential show prospect and they are left intact (in fact the only reason I neuter my males is because of a medical issue that would indicate it was an appropriate choice. So many of my males have remained intact all of their lives--and, none of them mark in the house (I don't really care if they do so outside, they don't hump other dogs except on the rare occasion that they are being bred to an in season bitch --on purpose--and sniffing is dog behavior--if they stop when I tell them to stop that's good enough for me.

I would do a vWD test through a company like VetGen, since it's a good idea to know their status anyway.
YES! And I do test for vWD and I do it early if I don't know what the status is because of parentage. Vet Gen is the first of the genetic test offerers and are still the most expensive. Less expensive are the gene testing companies like Gen Sol (which is likely the most inexpensive right now) There is also EMBARK--which for about $200 does a test which covers not only vWD but all other gene driven Doberman issues (and those of other breeds as well--but if you are wanting ALL available gene tests for Dobermans--the EMBARK test is a bargain.

What is NOT a bargain is the blood test offered by the average vet clinic--it is an Elisa assay--and is measuring ONLY vWD factor in the blood--and only for the moment that the blood was drawn and is affected by so many outside factors and the fact it usually takes a couple of days to come back because the test is read by an outside lab--it may not reflect much of what is really going on at the time of surgery.

Make sure you do the genetic test for vWD, like Melbrod said - that's a swab you send in, NOT a blood test at your vet. That's a minimum requirement you need to know for surgeries on Dobermans, IMO.

I always run the recommended bloodwork on all my animals (cats and dogs) prior to surgery. There are things that can come up that can really affect the safety of surgery.
I usually do a full blood panel on presurgery dogs but that does not include the very expensive Elisa assay which measures only vWD factor.

Just for some idea for you , I was at our vets yesterday and they asked about the vWD test on little girl - she had it already , but they said that test cost 225 dollars and like the others has said -- A must have
ECIN--I think your little girl had the EMBARK test (the whole litter was tested as I recall? The test your vet quoted you was not (I'd bet) a genetic test but the Elisa assay--for vWD factor.

There are very few times that I would ever have my regular vet do an Elisa assay--if I thought there was some reason that the dog might have low vWD factor--I'd actually do that AND I'd have the mucosel bleeding test (they nick the mucous membrane and time the length of time it takes to stop bleeding--and that would be done immediately before the surgery.

But I have not had any vWD positive dogs nor have I had any dogs who have been scheduled for long complicated surgeries (usually things like various orthopedic surgeries) where even a carrier or clear dog can (but rarely do) run out of sufficient vWD fact to allow proper clotting.)

And that's entirely enough about what tests I'd have done and since I work for a vet clinic and have for many years now that's where I have any and all surgeries done.

dobebug
 
#11 · (Edited)
Wow>> thanks everybody for your input! I did read that article, Meadow cat, and will get my husband to read it and this thread too. Ecin especially, I hear you<>! All the cost are calculated by his weight which is 90 lbs. I think I will call and to ask specifically what is provided by each option. I was thinking that the blood work testing done at the vet could become a sort of a "baseline" of information on Loki.

Are all untested male 1.5 year old Dobies considered high risk then??? Loki is untested, his parents are unknown and his testes are well descended.

We are neutering him , well just to be reasonable , to insure he doesn't ever pass on his likely (bad) byb genes , and hopefully to protect our other dog Bella from his pandering sexist instincts , such as humping and other semi aggressive un-knightly behaviors , and to cut back on the piss- marking. Not that she would put up with any of that bs. but she is 20 lbs smaller!
 
#13 ·
Make sure you do the genetic test for vWD, like Melbrod said - that's a swab you send in, NOT a blood test at your vet. That's a minimum requirement you need to know for surgeries on Dobermans, IMO.

I always run the recommended bloodwork on all my animals (cats and dogs) prior to surgery. There are things that can come up that can really affect the safety of surgery.
 
#15 · (Edited)
A test from vetgen for presence of the vWD disease only costs about $75. There are other places to get one; they slip my mind at the moment. You should be able to get a test done for under $100, at any rate.

It is a simple swab test—the lab sends you a kit; you rub the dog's gums with the provided swab and mail it back. They do the testing and send you the results.

It is possible that the test your vet's office was talking about was an elisa blood test, which actually just measures how much vWD clotting factor is in the dog's blood on the day of the test. A dog's vWD factor level will vary from day to day for a number of reasons, and that test not considered accurate enough to tell you the full vWD status of the dog (clear, carrier, affected). It can tell you if your dog will need special care for any surgery done within a few weeks of the test, and if your dog is an affected vWD dog, his factor will likely be low enough that the test will show that.

Vets may do a bleeding time on the day of a surgery, which involves a simple controlled nick of the dog's gums and a measurement of how long it takes for his blood to clot. This has the advantage of showing if there is ANY deficiency in the dog's clotting mechanism (there can be other causes for a prolonged bleeding time), but again, it will not tell you the dog's genetic vWD status, and whether the dog will need special handling in any future surgery.

Or perhaps your vet was talking about a full genetic panel of some sort, which could tell you other things about the dog's genetic makeup—that could possibly give you an idea about diseases which your particular dog could develop. But most of the tests on that kind of panel are not particularly needed for a dobe (they test for things which are problems in other breeds, for example), and even the ones which have some possible applicability (DCM 1 and 2) aren't really considered helpful enough that it is worth getting them done if you aren't planning on breeding the dog, IMO.

Or the vet may have been including other blood tests—a chemistry panel, for example. And adding in his own costs for sample collection/blood draw and specimen handling? At any rate, there is no reason you should have to pay that much for a simple vWD genetic test, and actually no reason you have to involve a vet at all if all you need is that test.
 
#17 · (Edited)
Would Loki if neutered be less likely to get in a fight with another dog/ male? He is very dog reactive and I know it is a ( slow but steady exposure) training issue, for the most part. This could only happen if the other dog were off leash.

He is pretty crazy about marking. He even went under a rose bush or a cactus ( on leash). He was a little frantic because of a dog across the street and I was focused on that too...and he ended up with thorns stuck in his ears and looking like a Beirut survivor. We are working on leash manners especially in general and every time we are out. He is food crazy, so that helps a little. We are taking them to a dog friendly cabin in Idyllwild (small mountain resort town) for 3 nights next week and will maybe try an out door restaurant. I'm sincerely hoping that the fencing is very high and solid like in the photo and that there are no local dogs roaming around off leash, but its a gamble.
 
#18 ·
Would Loki if neutered be less likely to get in a fight with another dog/ male? He is very dog reactive and I know it is a ( slow but steady exposure) training issue, for the most part. This could only happen if the other dog were off leash.
Neutering is very unlikely to have any effect on his dog reactivity. That's both an issue of temperament (fear/anxiety) and same-sex aggression, neither of which is at all affected by neutering.
 
#20 · (Edited)
Im with ECIN on this one and speak as a male too. So far I’ve refused to neuter unless absolutely necessary for his health.

I always say to my fiance and others.....I wouldnt neuter my own child, the same goes for my two dobie boys.

Again if he needs it done, please look into the best care you can provide him. 200 bucks for a procedure doesnt even seem like a lot considering my fiance and I spend more than that a month on groceries.

Loki, if your listening [emoji101] be on your best behavior! Hopefully you wont have to go through this! I’m trying my best for you buddy!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
#22 · (Edited)
This website gives some of the basics:

https://dogtime.com/dog-health/59753-von-willebrand-disease-dogs-symptoms-causes-treatments


vWD is a bleeding disorder. The affected dog's blood will take longer to clot than is normal. There are a few different types of vWD found in dogs; the kind found in dobermans is mild.

The condition is genetically caused—in general, in order for the dog to have symptoms, he needs to have inherited a mutant gene from each parent. A genetic test, like the one vetgen offers, will test for the mutant gene and tell you whether the dog is clear (no mutant gene), a carrier (one normal gene, one mutant gene) or affected (two mutant genes.) If the dog is a carrier, typically he will not have a bleeding problem. Even if he is genetically affected with two mutant genes, he may not seem to bleed excessively or spontaneously under ordinary conditions, and you may not realize he has a problem.

But an affected dog may have prolonged bleeding during surgery, so before any surgery, if his vWD status is unknown, a dobe should have some kind of testing to be sure his clotting ability is normal. Because a dog may need to go into surgery on an emergency basis, it is very useful if you know whether he is a genetically affected dog, so the vet can take extra precautions during the surgery. For routine surgeries like a neuter or spay of a vWD affected dog, the vet should ensure that he has supplies on hand that will help if the dog has problems during surgery.
 
#23 ·
#24 ·
I'm probably going to get a lot of flack here because of what I believe. Neutering is actually a very simple procedure and I believe the low cost clinics are the way to go. That said, I would definitely do the vWD test first. The removal of his testicles will definitely change his behavior because of lowering his testosterone level. Because of the possibility of him accidentally breeding a bitch somewhere in his lifetime I think it's wise to neuter him. Darn, my horse vet just lays my dogs out on a table or the tailgate of his truck and does the surgery. I've NEVER had an issue
 
#25 ·
Am new to DT and not seeing your boy’s age but have become very negative about early spay and neuter. If he is not at least a year old I would read up on the subject first. The UC Davis vet school study a few years back linked early spay and neuter to several health issues in larger dogs-bone and joint and ligament and I seem to recall others as well. After losing two male Dobes (in succession and unrelated but both having been neutered when a few months old and one also required ligament surgery) to bone cancer, our new girl, Tasha, will not be spayed until she is about 18 months old. She will have her normal hormones until she is grown.
 
#26 · (Edited)
Now back from my little trip, it is getting close to neuter time.

We got a result back from VetGen, it says Loki is "Affected" Type 1 Von Willebrands disease. Nothing more. I'm not sure if there is another element to this test they will send. Do this info preclude a safe neuter?
Thank you in advance, for your replies!
Julia
 
#27 ·
#29 · (Edited)
Definitely find a vet who knows about Doberman vWD (there are a couple different types in dog breeds—the doberman one tends to be the least severe) and do a consult with him. There are tests that can be done in preparation for a surgery to see whether it is safe to proceed, and some products he can have ready in advance to help him manage any bleeding problems during surgery.

He can also tell you what kind of precautions and preparations you can make for your routine life. For example, you probably should have a first aid kit, specialized a bit for Loki's condition, on hand at all times. And of course, you need to tell any vet who works with him that he is a genetically affected vWD dobe (as opposed to a clinically affected, with overt symptoms.) A positive vWD gene test doesn't necessarily say he WILL have problems bleeding, just that there is more of a likelihood than with non-vWD dogs.
 
#31 ·
RLM Loki is 2 weeks more than 1.5 years old at this time.
I forgot Loki did this:
"He even went under a rose bush or a cactus ( on leash). He was a little frantic because of a dog across the street and I was focused on that too...and he ended up with thorns stuck in his ears, cuts all over his head.... and looking like a war survivor."
He was pretty bloody and coagulated normally. I had had to remove dryness on his ear wound areas to get the thorns removed.
I'd like to not give up feeding the salmon oil. Some info on here says that it is bad for vWD affected dogs. I think it helps his fur. But I suppose I could switch to coconut oil???
Thanks!
 
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