Long time gone - Doberman Forum : Doberman Breed Dog Forums
Doberman Related Chat If your post does not fit into any other category post here.

 32Likes
Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
post #1 of 28 (permalink) Old 06-24-2020, 12:35 PM Thread Starter
Alpha
 
vonBingen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Posts: 529
Location: Tulsa, OK
Dogs Name: Hildegard, RIP 27JUN20
Dogs Age: Almost 8
Gallery Pics: 5
Visit vonBingen's Gallery
Thanks: 2,171
Thanked 1,547 Times in 424 Posts
Images: 5
                     
Long time gone

Hello all, Iím back from the dead. Iíve got two questions, then a quick catch up/reintroduction.

First, someone posted an article about genetic bottlenecking in the breed several months ago in some Doberman FB group. I canít remember the title, but Iíve been wondering about the opinions on it from the Doberman people I trust (by which I mean yíall). I assume it was discussed here, can someone link it for me?

Second, my beloved Hilde is walking toward the bridge. Itís a rotten thing, but I need to start my hunt for another dobe. Iím wondering if anyone knows of breeders willing to take on a new buyer/dober-parent in a non-show home.

Now me - Hello, Iím the servant of a beautiful red girl named Hildegard. Sheís the product of backyard breeders and her first owners gave her up after over a year of ignoring her. She became my best friend and service dog, but her bad breeding and that first year of neglect have taken their toll. She had heatworms when we got her, she blew out both knees two years ago, and she couldnít have them fixed because we found out trying to fix them that she has vWd and is allergic to the clotting factor and anesthesia makes her blood pressure tank. Happily, her muscles and scar tissue stabilized the knees so she could live a relatively pain-free life. Now, at 8ish, her liver is crapping out and sheís got nodules everywhere that are being biopsied now. We knew she was sick because she wouldnít eat yogurt. Honestly, straight to vet after that.

Iím still in Oklahoma. My husband (Hildeís daddy) and I are both fully retired. Jerome (pit bull mix) and our three kitties make up the family. Not much else very exciting happens, because we are the weirdos who only talk about our pets and only go places we can take them. But thatís what makes us happy.

Even though you havenít heard from me, Iíve used what I learned on this forum almost every day with all our animals and foster animals. Actually, with my step kids too. It really works.
vonBingen is offline  
The Following 13 Users Say Thank You to vonBingen For This Useful Post:
Artemis (06-24-2020), Beaumont67 (06-25-2020), brw1982 (06-24-2020), Cressrb (06-24-2020), dax0402 (06-24-2020), dobebug (06-24-2020), dobegal (06-24-2020), falnfenix (06-25-2020), LadyDi (06-24-2020), melbrod (06-24-2020), Rosemary (06-24-2020), spocksdad (06-28-2020), VZ-Doberman (06-24-2020)
Advertisement
 
post #2 of 28 (permalink) Old 06-24-2020, 01:10 PM
Alpha
 
LadyDi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2017
Posts: 6,181
Location: Florida
Dogs Name: Hoss
Titles: Proud European Doberman
Dogs Age: 3
Gallery Pics: 4
Visit LadyDi's Gallery
Thanks: 41,928
Thanked 18,392 Times in 5,367 Posts
Images: 4
                     
Click here to find out how LadyDi became a supporter
Well so glad to hear from you and a big welcome from Florida.
Your lifestyle sounds very familiar to many of us.
We are crazy about our pets thats for sure.
Welcome home!
vonBingen likes this.

Hoss
LadyDi is offline  
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to LadyDi For This Useful Post:
dax0402 (06-24-2020), melbrod (06-24-2020)
post #3 of 28 (permalink) Old 06-24-2020, 02:41 PM
Eschew Prolixity
 
melbrod's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 24,046
Location: Colorado
Dogs Name: Ori AKA Harold DogDog (Hairy Dog), RIP Caesar, Katana, Kip, Capri
Titles: DogDog Mouthe Extraordinaire; Kip Mr. Behavior; Capri Mis-Behavior
Dogs Age: DogDog 3 yrs?; RIP Kip 11 yrs; Capri 7 yrs; Katana 9 yrs; Caesar 13 yrs
Gallery Pics: 6
Visit melbrod's Gallery
Thanks: 80,894
Thanked 65,639 Times in 19,770 Posts
Images: 6
                     
Click here to find out how melbrod became a supporter
Hi! Welcome from Colorado.

I'm sorry Hilda's health is deteriorating--it happens to all of us sooner or later, but that doesn't make it any easier to get through.
dobebug likes this.
melbrod is offline  
The Following 6 Users Say Thank You to melbrod For This Useful Post:
Coco Loco (06-24-2020), Cressrb (06-28-2020), dax0402 (06-24-2020), dobebug (06-24-2020), LadyDi (06-24-2020), vonBingen (06-24-2020)
Advertisement
 
post #4 of 28 (permalink) Old 06-24-2020, 03:00 PM Thread Starter
Alpha
 
vonBingen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Posts: 529
Location: Tulsa, OK
Dogs Name: Hildegard, RIP 27JUN20
Dogs Age: Almost 8
Gallery Pics: 5
Visit vonBingen's Gallery
Thanks: 2,171
Thanked 1,547 Times in 424 Posts
Images: 5
                     
Quote:
Originally Posted by melbrod View Post
Hi! Welcome from Colorado.

I'm sorry Hilda's health is deteriorating--it happens to all of us sooner or later, but that doesn't make it any easier to get through.
Yíall always said they are a heartbreak breed. Iím glad I knew it, or this would be even harder.
LadyDi likes this.
vonBingen is offline  
The Following 6 Users Say Thank You to vonBingen For This Useful Post:
4x4bike ped (06-24-2020), Coco Loco (06-24-2020), Cressrb (06-28-2020), dax0402 (06-24-2020), LadyDi (06-24-2020), melbrod (06-24-2020)
post #5 of 28 (permalink) Old 06-24-2020, 03:09 PM
Alpha
 
LadyDi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2017
Posts: 6,181
Location: Florida
Dogs Name: Hoss
Titles: Proud European Doberman
Dogs Age: 3
Gallery Pics: 4
Visit LadyDi's Gallery
Thanks: 41,928
Thanked 18,392 Times in 5,367 Posts
Images: 4
                     
Click here to find out how LadyDi became a supporter
Well really glad you came Back to our forum.
How can we lighten year heart.
We know of your struggles.
If you Want to tell us more about your pups history or funny stories.
Would love to hear the details.

Hoss
LadyDi is offline  
The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to LadyDi For This Useful Post:
dax0402 (06-24-2020), melbrod (06-24-2020), vonBingen (06-24-2020)
post #6 of 28 (permalink) Old 06-24-2020, 03:47 PM Thread Starter
Alpha
 
vonBingen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Posts: 529
Location: Tulsa, OK
Dogs Name: Hildegard, RIP 27JUN20
Dogs Age: Almost 8
Gallery Pics: 5
Visit vonBingen's Gallery
Thanks: 2,171
Thanked 1,547 Times in 424 Posts
Images: 5
                     
Quote:
Originally Posted by LadyDi View Post
Well really glad you came Back to our forum.
How can we lighten year heart.
We know of your struggles.
If you Want to tell us more about your pups history or funny stories.
Would love to hear the details.
Hilde is a huge dober dork. First best thing I learned here was that this was normal. She thinks she is a small human child. Likes: anything pink, things that squeak, stuffed animals, all fruits, some veggies. Dislikes: Being left behind, the girl dogs her brother flirts with (she has another name for them), being ignored.

I have a veggie garden most years. Hilde LOVES tomatoes. She will pull them off the plant, chew a little, spit it out if itís unripe, and repeat. The solution: I got her her own tomato plant and said, ďHilde, this is your plant. I will give you everything from this plant, but you have to wait for me to pick it, so it will be ripe.Ē And it worked. I have volunteers in all her favorite poop spots now.
LadyDi likes this.
vonBingen is offline  
The Following 5 Users Say Thank You to vonBingen For This Useful Post:
Coco Loco (06-24-2020), Cressrb (06-28-2020), dax0402 (06-24-2020), LadyDi (06-25-2020), melbrod (06-24-2020)
post #7 of 28 (permalink) Old 06-24-2020, 04:00 PM Thread Starter
Alpha
 
vonBingen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Posts: 529
Location: Tulsa, OK
Dogs Name: Hildegard, RIP 27JUN20
Dogs Age: Almost 8
Gallery Pics: 5
Visit vonBingen's Gallery
Thanks: 2,171
Thanked 1,547 Times in 424 Posts
Images: 5
                     
I taught her to answer yes and no questions. It was helpful to figure out what she wanted when she was whining. Now I always know what she wants, so we use it as a trick for kids. My step-daughter spends the whole two weeks we get her every summer asking Hilde if she wants carrots or tomatoes - since Hilde loves food, the answer is always yes. As a result sheís forgotten how to say ďnoĒ

I was telling my husband the Disney princess traits I learned growing up. One is that princesses throw themselves on their beds and cry when life get them down. Hilde had been whining that it was bed time, but we werenít ready. So she ran upstairs, hurled herself on her bed, and let out the dobercry of sorrow and misery because her parents just donít Understand! (She came down a minute later to if this had the desired effect). So she is also a certified princess
LadyDi likes this.
vonBingen is offline  
The Following 4 Users Say Thank You to vonBingen For This Useful Post:
Coco Loco (06-24-2020), dax0402 (06-24-2020), LadyDi (06-25-2020), melbrod (06-24-2020)
post #8 of 28 (permalink) Old 06-24-2020, 04:04 PM
Super Moderator
 
MeadowCat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 20,658
Location: MN
Dogs Name: Richter; Sypha; RIP Shanoa & Simon
Titles: Richter: CAA L1V NW1 L1I L1E L1C NW2 L2V ACT1 RATI WAC; Sypha: NW1 NW2 L1C L1V L1E RATI SOG WAC
Dogs Age: d.o.b. 7/13/2012; d.o.b. 12/6/2015
Gallery Pics: 1
Visit MeadowCat's Gallery
Thanks: 49,362
Thanked 63,298 Times in 16,938 Posts
Images: 1
                     
Click here to find out how MeadowCat became a supporter
I'm not sure the specific article you're referring to, but you might check out The Doberman Diversity Project: https://www.dobermandiversityproject.org/

I tend to agree with you that our breed is in trouble in some ways. I personally look at breeders that are breeding for more diversity (I don't like to see the overuse of stud dogs, for example - you can see very popular stud dogs that end up in many, many pedigrees, and my personal opinion is that it's very unhealthy for the breed - and yes, I say that knowing that one of those dogs is a grandfather to one of my dogs). I really like breeders that are striving for longevity - the bred for longevity listings can be helpful, but talking to breeders and understanding their breeding philosophy is important, too.

I wish you luck in your search. All I can say is to take it slow and make sure you find someone who shares your philosophy, that you "click" with.


DSC_0133
by Shanoa Delta, on Flickr

Richter & Sypha
Glengate's Mountain Fortress CAA ORT L1E L1C NW2 L2V L2I ACT1 RATI SOG WAC
& Sirai's Golden Masquerade ORT L1V L1E L2C L2I NW2 RATI SOG DOG TKN WAC
ďYou cannot get through a single day without having an impact on the world around you.
What you do makes a difference, and you have to decide what kind of difference you want to make.Ē
― Jane Goodall
MeadowCat is online now  
The Following 7 Users Say Thank You to MeadowCat For This Useful Post:
dax0402 (06-24-2020), dobebug (06-24-2020), dobegal (06-25-2020), Fitzmar Dobermans (06-26-2020), LadyDi (06-25-2020), melbrod (06-24-2020), vonBingen (06-24-2020)
post #9 of 28 (permalink) Old 06-24-2020, 04:30 PM Thread Starter
Alpha
 
vonBingen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Posts: 529
Location: Tulsa, OK
Dogs Name: Hildegard, RIP 27JUN20
Dogs Age: Almost 8
Gallery Pics: 5
Visit vonBingen's Gallery
Thanks: 2,171
Thanked 1,547 Times in 424 Posts
Images: 5
                     
Quote:
Originally Posted by MeadowCat View Post
I'm not sure the specific article you're referring to, but you might check out The Doberman Diversity Project: https://www.dobermandiversityproject.org/

I tend to agree with you that our breed is in trouble in some ways. I personally look at breeders that are breeding for more diversity (I don't like to see the overuse of stud dogs, for example - you can see very popular stud dogs that end up in many, many pedigrees, and my personal opinion is that it's very unhealthy for the breed - and yes, I say that knowing that one of those dogs is a grandfather to one of my dogs). I really like breeders that are striving for longevity - the bred for longevity listings can be helpful, but talking to breeders and understanding their breeding philosophy is important, too.

I wish you luck in your search. All I can say is to take it slow and make sure you find someone who shares your philosophy, that you "click" with.
Longevity (and diversity) is absolutely something Iím looking for. Iím prepared to have my heart broken again and again with this breed, but Iíd like my breeder to understand the heartbreak and be fighting against it. Thank you for the advice!

The article was all about the lack of diversity and possible solutions, specifically comparing it to past problems with the standard poodle breed and things they did to pull it from the brink. I wanted to see what some of the long time breeders on here thought of the studies and solution, since the article painted a very grim picture. I just donít have the knowledge to know the reality.
dobebug and LadyDi like this.
vonBingen is offline  
The Following 5 Users Say Thank You to vonBingen For This Useful Post:
Cressrb (06-28-2020), dobebug (06-24-2020), LadyDi (06-25-2020), MeadowCat (06-24-2020), melbrod (06-24-2020)
post #10 of 28 (permalink) Old 06-24-2020, 04:34 PM
Super Moderator
 
dax0402's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 18,122
Location: North Cental PA
Dogs Name: Drogo; RIP Briarwood Utopia v Exacta (Miley); RIP Briarwood Ariki v Exacta (Baron)
Titles: Baron-CDX, CD, RE, RA, RN, CGC
Dogs Age: 6 Years 8 Months; 12 Years, 9 Months, 14 Days; 12 Years, 1 Month, 22 Days
Gallery Pics: 29
Visit dax0402's Gallery
Thanks: 49,135
Thanked 28,014 Times in 12,484 Posts
Images: 29
                     
Click here to find out how dax0402 became a supporter
Hi and welcome back. Great to hear from you and so sorry your girl's health.
dax0402 is offline  
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to dax0402 For This Useful Post:
LadyDi (06-25-2020), vonBingen (06-24-2020)
post #11 of 28 (permalink) Old 06-24-2020, 04:49 PM
Alpha
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 9,023

Gallery Pics: 0
Visit dobebug's Gallery
Thanks: 14,842
Thanked 29,278 Times in 7,198 Posts
                     
MeadowCat beat me to it--I was going to suggest checking on the Doberman Diversity Project--they have been investigating diversity in our breed for awhile now.

One of the things they've done is trace heredity by genetics back looking for dogs and bitches who may have more diversity to offer the breed.l

Diversity is a real issue and a real problem and the overuse of popular studs in breeding programs contributes to the problem. I first heard about it from a friend who was no longer breeding Dobermans but was breeding Smooth Fox Terriers. She told me about an issue that erupted in the English Smooth's when a very popular and VERY prepotent sire who also carried and threw a fairly common fault in the breed. Slipped patellas (kneecaps). The end result is that the English breeders ended up having to look outside England for quality dogs to breed to and with because every registered pedigree had that particular dog in it. Pretty sad because England at the time was the premier producer of very good Smooth Fox Terriers.

Sadly, Dobermans are nearly in the same boat--even dogs that most breeders wouldn't consider under any circumstances share the genetics of the very best dogs. This reached the point where it seem to be pretty likely that that all Dobermans have ultimately descended from one bitch and (I'm not dead sure of this) all males from only a few different dogs.

But there remains the fact that Ma' Natures seems to have had a trump card in her hand and one of the things that happens in a natural limited population (ie one breed found only on an isolated island) is that some times genes recombine differently that you would expect so it remains to be seen if Dobermans will be able to survive all of the ways they have been bred and probably shouldn't have been.

I don't think it ended up in discussion here--we don't have as many breeders as we used to (probably because of the increase in Facebook groups dedicated to specific issues.)

My dogs, at least the recent ones have come from a breeder who tries at least to avoid using the most popular stud around and has been producing very nice and generally healthy dogs with pretty decent longevity. I lost my fawn dog in November last year--he was 14 and although he had cardio and was on medication and doing well with that and it wasn't cardio that killed him.

So I'm awfully sorry to hear about your girl. But like a philosopher said many years ago--none of us get out of here alive.

So welcome back--and just for laughs I'll tell you that I had decided that the dog I had euthanized in November last year was going to be the last of my Dobermans (I'd had them since 1959) I was too old and rickety to raise another Dobe puppy. That didn't last long--one of the cats watched me leave with the dog he thought was his and come back without him and was at the door when I left and when I came back looking for his dog. And the house was very empty. I was at a dog show/obedience trial just days after I sent that dog on his way--admiring a puppy who was showing in the 4-6 month classes and doing well and talking to the breeder/owner about her puppy and my dog and said to her if she needed a place to stick him while he grew up she could loan him to me.

She called a day later asking if I was serious. So I've had Joey the loaner since shortly before he hit 6 months and he just turned a year. He fills the house--the cat who owned my fawn dog and his partner have undertaken to teach the puppy how to behave around cats. I guess I wasn't ready to not have a Doberman yet.

dobebug
Coco Loco and vonBingen like this.
dobebug is offline  
The Following 8 Users Say Thank You to dobebug For This Useful Post:
brw1982 (06-24-2020), Coco Loco (06-24-2020), Cressrb (06-28-2020), Fitzmar Dobermans (06-26-2020), LadyDi (06-25-2020), melbrod (06-24-2020), Rosemary (06-24-2020), vonBingen (06-24-2020)
post #12 of 28 (permalink) Old 06-24-2020, 05:00 PM
Super Moderator
 
MeadowCat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 20,658
Location: MN
Dogs Name: Richter; Sypha; RIP Shanoa & Simon
Titles: Richter: CAA L1V NW1 L1I L1E L1C NW2 L2V ACT1 RATI WAC; Sypha: NW1 NW2 L1C L1V L1E RATI SOG WAC
Dogs Age: d.o.b. 7/13/2012; d.o.b. 12/6/2015
Gallery Pics: 1
Visit MeadowCat's Gallery
Thanks: 49,362
Thanked 63,298 Times in 16,938 Posts
Images: 1
                     
Click here to find out how MeadowCat became a supporter
The article you mentioned MAY be either the long article on the UC Davis site, or a summary of it.

https://vgl.ucdavis.edu/canine-genet...erman-pinscher . The article is embedded on that page.

It is incredibly worrisome to read about the shape our breed is in. From reading what UC Davis has found, Dobermans are the breed the most lacking in genetic diversity they've found. We KNOW that is why so many genetic diseases (like DCM) are taking strong hold in the breed. We absolutely MUST commit to breeding for diversity. We can't continue to stick our heads in the sand here.

There are some breeders out there that are doing COI testing and purposely breeding litters for lower COI. Not many of them. It's HARD to find breeders that are committed to this. It may mean they sacrifice something in the show ring. And they need to be doing the correct diversity testing for both sire and dam to work towards a more genetically diverse litter. And, of course, they still want a complimentary breeding pair (temperament, etc).

I know one of Shelly Wing's last litters was COI tested and was fairly low. I really admire her for doing that testing.
vonBingen likes this.


DSC_0133
by Shanoa Delta, on Flickr

Richter & Sypha
Glengate's Mountain Fortress CAA ORT L1E L1C NW2 L2V L2I ACT1 RATI SOG WAC
& Sirai's Golden Masquerade ORT L1V L1E L2C L2I NW2 RATI SOG DOG TKN WAC
ďYou cannot get through a single day without having an impact on the world around you.
What you do makes a difference, and you have to decide what kind of difference you want to make.Ē
― Jane Goodall
MeadowCat is online now  
The Following 5 Users Say Thank You to MeadowCat For This Useful Post:
dobebug (06-24-2020), dobegal (06-25-2020), LadyDi (06-25-2020), melbrod (06-24-2020), vonBingen (06-24-2020)
post #13 of 28 (permalink) Old 06-24-2020, 06:16 PM
Alpha
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 9,023

Gallery Pics: 0
Visit dobebug's Gallery
Thanks: 14,842
Thanked 29,278 Times in 7,198 Posts
                     
MeadowCat,

Thanks very much for the link to the Davis article. I'd read bits and pieces of it in a variety of places but had never read the entire thing.

ABTLH
vonBingen likes this.
dobebug is offline  
The Following 4 Users Say Thank You to dobebug For This Useful Post:
LadyDi (06-25-2020), MeadowCat (06-24-2020), melbrod (06-24-2020), vonBingen (06-24-2020)
post #14 of 28 (permalink) Old 06-24-2020, 07:10 PM Thread Starter
Alpha
 
vonBingen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Posts: 529
Location: Tulsa, OK
Dogs Name: Hildegard, RIP 27JUN20
Dogs Age: Almost 8
Gallery Pics: 5
Visit vonBingen's Gallery
Thanks: 2,171
Thanked 1,547 Times in 424 Posts
Images: 5
                     
Quote:
Originally Posted by MeadowCat View Post
The article you mentioned MAY be either the long article on the UC Davis site, or a summary of it.

https://vgl.ucdavis.edu/canine-genet...erman-pinscher . The article is embedded on that page.

It is incredibly worrisome to read about the shape our breed is in. From reading what UC Davis has found, Dobermans are the breed the most lacking in genetic diversity they've found. We KNOW that is why so many genetic diseases (like DCM) are taking strong hold in the breed. We absolutely MUST commit to breeding for diversity. We can't continue to stick our heads in the sand here.

There are some breeders out there that are doing COI testing and purposely breeding litters for lower COI. Not many of them. It's HARD to find breeders that are committed to this. It may mean they sacrifice something in the show ring. And they need to be doing the correct diversity testing for both sire and dam to work towards a more genetically diverse litter. And, of course, they still want a complimentary breeding pair (temperament, etc).

I know one of Shelly Wing's last litters was COI tested and was fairly low. I really admire her for doing that testing.
Thank you, that study was excellent and led me to the article I read that referenced it. Here:

https://www.instituteofcaninebiology...erman-pinscher

Itís from the blog of someone who has a business to teach breeders about breeding genetic diversity, so Iím always cautious when someone has something to sell. But she uses good research and doesnt come up with extreme conclusions. Maybe a little harsh toward breeders and shows?

The points Iím most interested in is the authorís thoughts on saving the breed - either active searches for ďpocketsĒ of genetic diversity, or a carefully managed, cross-breed program. Is it that bad? Is this likely to actually happen Or happen soon? Are the specific actors within the breed that are going to stall the rescue of our breed? Any actors that will speed it along?

I imagine it must be so difficult to move as a breeder. How do you balance best breeding practice, genetic diversity, and show quality?
LadyDi likes this.
vonBingen is offline  
The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to vonBingen For This Useful Post:
dobebug (06-25-2020), LadyDi (06-25-2020), melbrod (06-24-2020)
post #15 of 28 (permalink) Old 06-24-2020, 07:14 PM Thread Starter
Alpha
 
vonBingen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Posts: 529
Location: Tulsa, OK
Dogs Name: Hildegard, RIP 27JUN20
Dogs Age: Almost 8
Gallery Pics: 5
Visit vonBingen's Gallery
Thanks: 2,171
Thanked 1,547 Times in 424 Posts
Images: 5
                     
Dobebug - thatís how my cats and my pittie are going to be. My pit Jerome is already so sad and lethargic, just from Hilde being at the vet while he does diagnostics. Our cats ADORE Hilde. I think they know she keeps them safe from the coyotes in our area.
dobebug likes this.
vonBingen is offline  
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to vonBingen For This Useful Post:
LadyDi (06-25-2020), melbrod (06-24-2020)
post #16 of 28 (permalink) Old 06-24-2020, 09:04 PM
Super Moderator
 
MeadowCat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 20,658
Location: MN
Dogs Name: Richter; Sypha; RIP Shanoa & Simon
Titles: Richter: CAA L1V NW1 L1I L1E L1C NW2 L2V ACT1 RATI WAC; Sypha: NW1 NW2 L1C L1V L1E RATI SOG WAC
Dogs Age: d.o.b. 7/13/2012; d.o.b. 12/6/2015
Gallery Pics: 1
Visit MeadowCat's Gallery
Thanks: 49,362
Thanked 63,298 Times in 16,938 Posts
Images: 1
                     
Click here to find out how MeadowCat became a supporter
Quote:
Originally Posted by vonBingen View Post
Thank you, that study was excellent and led me to the article I read that referenced it. Here:

https://www.instituteofcaninebiology...erman-pinscher

Itís from the blog of someone who has a business to teach breeders about breeding genetic diversity, so Iím always cautious when someone has something to sell. But she uses good research and doesnt come up with extreme conclusions. Maybe a little harsh toward breeders and shows?

The points Iím most interested in is the authorís thoughts on saving the breed - either active searches for ďpocketsĒ of genetic diversity, or a carefully managed, cross-breed program. Is it that bad? Is this likely to actually happen Or happen soon? Are the specific actors within the breed that are going to stall the rescue of our breed? Any actors that will speed it along?

I imagine it must be so difficult to move as a breeder. How do you balance best breeding practice, genetic diversity, and show quality?
We just don't have a bunch of active breeders on here, and honestly, I don't know how many you'll find that are willing to discuss it that openly on a public forum. There are some that are interested in things like the Doberman Diversity Project, which is at least a start towards a conversation. I don't know what to tell you beyond that, except to talk to individual breeders that you might be interested in and see where they are at, their thoughts about diversity in the breed, what they think about moving forward...I don't think there are easy answers.


DSC_0133
by Shanoa Delta, on Flickr

Richter & Sypha
Glengate's Mountain Fortress CAA ORT L1E L1C NW2 L2V L2I ACT1 RATI SOG WAC
& Sirai's Golden Masquerade ORT L1V L1E L2C L2I NW2 RATI SOG DOG TKN WAC
ďYou cannot get through a single day without having an impact on the world around you.
What you do makes a difference, and you have to decide what kind of difference you want to make.Ē
― Jane Goodall
MeadowCat is online now  
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to MeadowCat For This Useful Post:
melbrod (06-24-2020), vonBingen (06-24-2020)
post #17 of 28 (permalink) Old 06-24-2020, 09:27 PM Thread Starter
Alpha
 
vonBingen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Posts: 529
Location: Tulsa, OK
Dogs Name: Hildegard, RIP 27JUN20
Dogs Age: Almost 8
Gallery Pics: 5
Visit vonBingen's Gallery
Thanks: 2,171
Thanked 1,547 Times in 424 Posts
Images: 5
                     
No, I didnít think there would be easy answers. The breeding world isnít a homogenous group with direct leaders, so I didnít even expect an answer at all, really. Honestly, when I read the suggestions I didnít think any of those things were going to happen any time soon. Thanks anyway Meadowcat
vonBingen is offline  
The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to vonBingen For This Useful Post:
LadyDi (06-25-2020), MeadowCat (06-24-2020), melbrod (06-24-2020)
post #18 of 28 (permalink) Old 06-24-2020, 09:32 PM
Super Moderator
 
MeadowCat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 20,658
Location: MN
Dogs Name: Richter; Sypha; RIP Shanoa & Simon
Titles: Richter: CAA L1V NW1 L1I L1E L1C NW2 L2V ACT1 RATI WAC; Sypha: NW1 NW2 L1C L1V L1E RATI SOG WAC
Dogs Age: d.o.b. 7/13/2012; d.o.b. 12/6/2015
Gallery Pics: 1
Visit MeadowCat's Gallery
Thanks: 49,362
Thanked 63,298 Times in 16,938 Posts
Images: 1
                     
Click here to find out how MeadowCat became a supporter
Quote:
Originally Posted by vonBingen View Post
No, I didnít think there would be easy answers. The breeding world isnít a homogenous group with direct leaders, so I didnít even expect an answer at all, really. Honestly, when I read the suggestions I didnít think any of those things were going to happen any time soon. Thanks anyway Meadowcat
I do think there are people out there that are concerned, for sure. I think having some of the "tools" and maybe just...jumping off points? from the articles, particularly from the UC Davis info, would be a good starting point for conversations with some breeders. Even just to say, hey, have you read this? What are your thoughts? Are you diversity/COI testing? Are you interested in that? How are you trying to breed for diversity, if you are?

It's just one part of the whole, big, complex puzzle some of us look at as buyers. I think it's important. Telling our breeders that it's important to US, as owners and buyers - that matters. We're part of the breed, too.
dobebug and vonBingen like this.


DSC_0133
by Shanoa Delta, on Flickr

Richter & Sypha
Glengate's Mountain Fortress CAA ORT L1E L1C NW2 L2V L2I ACT1 RATI SOG WAC
& Sirai's Golden Masquerade ORT L1V L1E L2C L2I NW2 RATI SOG DOG TKN WAC
ďYou cannot get through a single day without having an impact on the world around you.
What you do makes a difference, and you have to decide what kind of difference you want to make.Ē
― Jane Goodall
MeadowCat is online now  
The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to MeadowCat For This Useful Post:
LadyDi (06-25-2020), melbrod (06-24-2020), vonBingen (06-25-2020)
post #19 of 28 (permalink) Old 06-24-2020, 09:44 PM
Big Lil pup
 
4x4bike ped's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2015
Posts: 6,013
Location: Portland, OR
Dogs Name: Foxfire's The Real McCoy (McCoy)
Titles: Pet of the Year
Dogs Age: DOB 9/12/14
Gallery Pics: 9
Visit 4x4bike ped's Gallery
Thanks: 16,229
Thanked 14,634 Times in 4,946 Posts
Images: 9
                     
Hi von!

It's so nice to h from you again. You are still on my "friends" list! LOL

I am so sorry to hear about Hilde. It sounds like she has given you a lot of joy over the past few years.

That's the same reason I keep sticking with this incredible breed.

John Lichtwardt
Portland OR
vonBingen and LadyDi like this.
4x4bike ped is offline  
The Following 5 Users Say Thank You to 4x4bike ped For This Useful Post:
Cressrb (06-28-2020), dobebug (06-25-2020), LadyDi (06-25-2020), melbrod (06-24-2020), vonBingen (06-25-2020)
post #20 of 28 (permalink) Old 06-25-2020, 11:45 AM
Alpha
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 9,023

Gallery Pics: 0
Visit dobebug's Gallery
Thanks: 14,842
Thanked 29,278 Times in 7,198 Posts
                     
Quote:
Originally Posted by vonBingen View Post
Thank you, that study was excellent and led me to the article I read that referenced it. Here:

https://www.instituteofcaninebiology...erman-pinscher

Itís from the blog of someone who has a business to teach breeders about breeding genetic diversity, so Iím always cautious when someone has something to sell. But she uses good research and doesnt come up with extreme conclusions. Maybe a little harsh toward breeders and shows?

The points Iím most interested in is the authorís thoughts on saving the breed - either active searches for ďpocketsĒ of genetic diversity, or a carefully managed, cross-breed program. Is it that bad? Is this likely to actually happen Or happen soon? Are the specific actors within the breed that are going to stall the rescue of our breed? Any actors that will speed it along?

I imagine it must be so difficult to move as a breeder. How do you balance best breeding practice, genetic diversity, and show quality?
I've got a few comments that have been made elsewhere when some of her points came up for discussion.

I don't know how realistic the "search" for pockets of genetic diversity are likely to be. Between WWI and WWII the European population of Dobermans was virtually wiped out. And even the more reliable sources for Dobe history have said that there were so few Dobermans remaining after WWI that the search for "pockets" resulted in very few dogs and some that were used to repopulate the breed in Germany were not purebred. At the time of WWI the breed as a registered entity was less than 20 years old and not widespread.

But if you want to talk about bottle necks--it's a wonder the breed survived either of the world wars. And the fact is that most of the American dogs were founded by the remainder of the breed that was used to produce the the German Doberman between the wars.

I have to go and look up some of the data of the only "sort of" successful attempt at dealing with a breed wide health issue and what happened.

I'll be back later with that.

dobebug

A
vonBingen and LadyDi like this.
dobebug is offline  
The Following 4 Users Say Thank You to dobebug For This Useful Post:
LadyDi (06-25-2020), MeadowCat (06-25-2020), melbrod (06-25-2020), vonBingen (06-25-2020)
post #21 of 28 (permalink) Old 06-25-2020, 12:15 PM
Alpha
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 9,023

Gallery Pics: 0
Visit dobebug's Gallery
Thanks: 14,842
Thanked 29,278 Times in 7,198 Posts
                     
OK--vonBingen,

I'm back with a very brief account of the Dalmation breeders trying to deal with a widespread genetic problem (100 percent in the breed according to most sources). It had to do with the high production of uric acid which in turn left the breed as a whole with a tendency to have problems with bladder stones and other problems related to that high production of uric acid.

In 1973 there was an attempt made to back cross a similar breed type who had no genetic issue with uric acid production and a AKC champion Pointer was bred to a Dalmatian bitch--within only a few generations of that initial crossbreeding they had dogs that looked like Dalmatians but had much lower production of uric acid (1/2 that produced by virtually all Dalmatians). Even early on the AKC was prepared to allow the back cross dogs produced by that initial breeding to be registered but the Dalmatian parent club vetoed it. Now 14 generations later in 2011 the AKC (and presumably the parent club voted for it this time) is allowing those dogs (with follow up genetic testing) to be registered.

But it was a long hard road--and the Dalmatian people at least had a reasonable starting point with a breed that is regarded by geneticists and with breeders as both generally a healthier breed than many and one of a fairly consistent breed type.

You can dig up without much effort quite a lot of information about what they are now calling low uric Dalmatians. Where the project started and how it went and what they've ended up with. I started with Google and asked about Dalmatian breed health and followed a series of links back to the one that said that AKC had recognised the low uric dogs as of 2011.

So far the advocates of trying to cross breed with something with better health and still keep the Doberman appearance and character has not met with success. Part of the problem lies in the fact that most purebred's have a whole array of genetic problems that no one wants to add to those already common in the Doberman.

There are a couple of "village" (we call them mutts) type in some areas that are similar enough to each other to practically constitute a "breed" and some of these have been suggested but that has met with virtually no success.

Creating the proper genetics is hard and many think impossible but who knows more gets discovered about genes, their function and how to use them in various ways and it may be that this breed isn't doomed to extinction yet.

dobebug.
princess bella likes this.
dobebug is offline  
The Following 5 Users Say Thank You to dobebug For This Useful Post:
Cressrb (06-28-2020), LadyDi (06-25-2020), MeadowCat (06-25-2020), melbrod (06-25-2020), vonBingen (06-25-2020)
post #22 of 28 (permalink) Old 06-25-2020, 06:30 PM Thread Starter
Alpha
 
vonBingen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Posts: 529
Location: Tulsa, OK
Dogs Name: Hildegard, RIP 27JUN20
Dogs Age: Almost 8
Gallery Pics: 5
Visit vonBingen's Gallery
Thanks: 2,171
Thanked 1,547 Times in 424 Posts
Images: 5
                     
Thank you dobebug! That is exactly the sort of thoughts and commentary I was curious about.
princess bella likes this.
vonBingen is offline  
The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to vonBingen For This Useful Post:
LadyDi (06-27-2020), MeadowCat (06-26-2020), melbrod (06-25-2020)
post #23 of 28 (permalink) Old 06-26-2020, 10:54 AM
Alpha
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 9,023

Gallery Pics: 0
Visit dobebug's Gallery
Thanks: 14,842
Thanked 29,278 Times in 7,198 Posts
                     
Here's another one for you vonBingem--I got to thinking about breeds with inherent genetic problems and remembered that Basenji's were one of the breed for whom the standard was opened and that happened not once but twice.

Basenj's were first recognized by the AKC in 1943. Originally an African breed they originally came with a lovely genetic disease--Franconi's Syndrom--a renal disorder which was widespread in the original dogs that formed the foundation group. I believe (and this is only from foggy memory) that all of the original dogs came only in the red and white and when the standard was reopened in 1990 in an attempt to bring in dogs who did not carry Fanconi's syndrome genes (and this is where I get foggy about the exact information--but with those dogs I think came the brindle coloration and maybe black and white) and the standard was once again reopened from January of 2009 to December of 2013. I was out of touch with the Basenji breeders that I knew earlier so I'm not sure why the standard was opened the last time. I'd guess for health issues again--Basenji's carry quite a few .

I hear people say, from time to time when discussions on opening breed standards come up--"Oh, the AKC would never allow that..." But it's clear that the AKC does, on occasion and usually because of health issue, indeed, allow that.

dobebug
vonBingen likes this.
dobebug is offline  
The Following 7 Users Say Thank You to dobebug For This Useful Post:
4x4bike ped (06-26-2020), Cressrb (06-28-2020), LadyDi (06-27-2020), MeadowCat (06-26-2020), melbrod (06-26-2020), Rosemary (06-26-2020), vonBingen (06-28-2020)
post #24 of 28 (permalink) Old 06-26-2020, 11:35 AM
Got mutt?
 
Rosemary's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 13,425
Location: Southeast Texas
Dogs Name: Leo (GSD); Lily (APBT)
Titles: They do, and are working on more
Dogs Age: Leo 7; Lily 5; Ilka 2009-2017; Lucky 2000-2014
Gallery Pics: 0
Visit Rosemary's Gallery
Thanks: 40,023
Thanked 32,462 Times in 10,661 Posts
                     
LUA Dalmatians have a registration marker like the WZ designating a dog descended from the first albino Doberman, I believe. And yes, there was considerable push-back on opening up the stud books to dogs that came from that one cross, which is why they have the registration marker.

From what I understand, the Basenji people had a work-around planned out, where the dogs out of the bush would first be registered with the Kennel Club in England, and after enough generations being KC registered, they could be able to register further descendants with the AKC. Instead, the club voted to reopen the studbook, and rewrote the standard to allow brindle dogs.
vonBingen likes this.


~~The Current Hellhounds~~
ADP-CH Lily Dale- A Melody Unchained ETD PKD-T PKD-N ADP-L1(Pr)/L2(Pr)/L3(Pr)/L2 (GC) GPS-SST OD-WD3
S-ADP-CH CA Speed Queen Leontine Von Washateria ETD D-CRO-Preliminary PKD-T PKD-N S-ADP-L1(Pr)/L2(Pr)/3(Pr)/L2(GC) GPS-SST OD-WD3
~~Requiescat In Pace~~
Ilka Of Pear Orchard Cemetery BN RE CA CGC TKP ETD CRO-1 D-CRO-Preliminary NCO-1 PKD-T PKD-N S-ADP-L4 ~2009-2017~
Lucky Rat Dog CGC ~2000-2014~
ďDance as if no one who is qualified to commit you is watching!Ē
Rosemary is offline  
The Following 4 Users Say Thank You to Rosemary For This Useful Post:
Cressrb (06-28-2020), LadyDi (06-27-2020), melbrod (06-26-2020), vonBingen (06-28-2020)
post #25 of 28 (permalink) Old 06-26-2020, 11:52 AM
Alpha
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 9,023

Gallery Pics: 0
Visit dobebug's Gallery
Thanks: 14,842
Thanked 29,278 Times in 7,198 Posts
                     
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rosemary View Post
LUA Dalmatians have a registration marker like the WZ designating a dog descended from the first albino Doberman, I believe. And yes, there was considerable push-back on opening up the stud books to dogs that came from that one cross, which is why they have the registration marker.

From what I understand, the Basenji people had a work-around planned out, where the dogs out of the bush would first be registered with the Kennel Club in England, and after enough generations being KC registered, they could be able to register further descendants with the AKC. Instead, the club voted to reopen the studbook, and rewrote the standard to allow brindle dogs.
One of the things that happened was that the KC of England had so few dogs registered when the first non-Franconi dogs were imported was that the AKC club revolted and didn't want to wait for a bunch more generations of Franconi dogs before they could add the non-Franconi dogs into the breeding population. One of the people I knew who had a Basenji and a Doberman was involved in that first opening of the standard.

And the back-cross with the Dalmatian experiment was huge news and a huge controversy at time--after about three generations and all of the offspring were looking like Dalmations and the club was fighting tooth and nail to not allow the offspring to be registered under any circumstances even though the AKC had agreed to allow them to register the crosses as Dal's it was like suddenly there was no news and you really had to go hunting for further information about the program. I lost track of it entirely and only recently ran across something in an article in one of the publications aimed at Vets that made me go looking again.

Interesting stuff though...

dobebug
vonBingen likes this.
dobebug is offline  
The Following 6 Users Say Thank You to dobebug For This Useful Post:
Cressrb (06-28-2020), LadyDi (06-27-2020), MeadowCat (06-26-2020), melbrod (06-26-2020), Rosemary (06-26-2020), vonBingen (06-28-2020)
Advertisement
 
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now



In order to be able to post messages on the Doberman Forum : Doberman Breed Dog Forums forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.

User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Password:


Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.

Email Address:
OR

Log-in










Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page
Display Modes
Linear Mode Linear Mode



Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome