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post #1 of 22 (permalink) Old 04-18-2020, 06:47 PM Thread Starter
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What about South American dogs ?

So I've benn watching this forum for a couple months now

It seems like every other day someone starts a thread asking about Euro Dobermans which immediately gets responses asking "why a Euro when there are so many great American Doberman"

I have yet to see anyone asking about South American Dobermans or anyone recommending them.....why is that do you think?

I had being admiring Dobermans since the age of 7 but didn't actually get one till 2002. I knew that Dobermans had several potential health issues so that was my main concern when I researched breeders. My breeder told me that he had chosen a male from Argentina to breed with his bitch but back then I had no idea there was a difference between American, European and South American Dobermans..

My girl was absolutely gorgeous, I hope I can figure out how to post pictures on here. It wasn't until my girl was about 8 that I learned about the different "types" and now looking back at old photos I can really see the South American traits she had. She was slim and leggy but a solid 72lbs but it was her incredibly deep chest that really stood out, and damn could that dog run. Her favourite game was "chase and tackle" and the only dog at the off leash park she couldn't catch was a Whippet that would turn on a dime when my girl got too close.

Anyway I was just wondering why I haven't heard anything on here about the South American dogs
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post #2 of 22 (permalink) Old 04-18-2020, 07:50 PM
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The South American dogs, or at least the popular ones, are basically a subset of the American Dobermans. The South Americans have not used all of the American lines, but most of what they have bred to outside of South America for the past 30 years or so, have been American dogs. For many years the Americans sent their well bred lesser littermates of well known American show dogs to South America, then they came up here with Nello's Lex Luthor and kicked our butts. He was an outstanding dog and an outstanding producer. Since then the South Americans have had the same stature as North American dogs.

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post #3 of 22 (permalink) Old 04-18-2020, 08:08 PM
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As far as I'm concerned the South American dogs salvaged the AKC Dobermans in several areas--a lot of AKC breeders had ignored heads so long paying attention to other pieces of Doberman anatomy (which is all well and good but I heard breeders here so many times say "Well, you can get good heads in one generation and we're dealing with (fill in the blank-fronts, rears, feet etc).."

All I could really do was think that you might be able to get good heads in one generation but you'd have a hell of a time doing it when there were virtually no good heads around to go to.

I knew some of the dogs behind Lex Luther and I met the dog at one of the Mass. Nationals (and it was after there was a lot of talk going around about his horrible temperament.)

Nothing at all wrong with his temperament--I met him in person as I was watching a not very exciting class and realized his handler was standing next to me--I was gawking at the dog and trying not to be obvious about it when the handler asked if I'd like to meet him. I couldn't jump at that chance fast enough. He introduced me to Lex and Lex promptly up ended himself so I could rub his belly--in a very crowded exhibition hall with a ton of dogs and people around.

I really liked him a lot--my kind of dog. Later I talked to a breeder who I think had the first Lex litter in the States and they couldn't stop talking about the great temperament on the puppies they had.

So much for that rumor.

I don't know why people never seem to ask about the SA dogs--I think a lot of people who ask about the European dogs have a really warped idea of the difference between the the Euro dogs and the North American dogs and I usually suspect they don't know anything about the South American dogs after I talk to them.

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post #4 of 22 (permalink) Old 04-18-2020, 08:32 PM
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Seems like a lot of NA dogs have SA lines in them, do they not?

I do know someone who has imported South American dogs directly. That seems less common.

I think no matter what "type" of dog you want to pursue it's important to understand what you're actually looking for, and to find a good breeder.
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post #5 of 22 (permalink) Old 04-18-2020, 08:41 PM
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Is there any downside to having SA lines in a dog? TIA
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post #6 of 22 (permalink) Old 04-18-2020, 09:32 PM
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I don't know much about South American Dobes. But one couldn't ask for a better temperament in a Doberman than found in our 10yo boy, The Sheriff.

His paternal grandsire was CH Inaqui de Black Shadow (from Argentina) via Foxfire All Star (Jet).

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post #7 of 22 (permalink) Old 04-19-2020, 04:17 PM Thread Starter
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Ok I figured out how to add photos

This was my American/South American girl "Theadra", you can see what a deep chest she had
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post #8 of 22 (permalink) Old 04-19-2020, 04:27 PM
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Beautiful girl.
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post #9 of 22 (permalink) Old 04-19-2020, 04:38 PM
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The chest should always be deep to the elbow; that's the breed standard. Brisket should be deep to the elbow. It's not a South American thing, it's proper structure. It should not be shallow, nor should it be deeper than the elbow. You can read the breed standard here: DPCA | The Doberman | Breed Standard


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post #10 of 22 (permalink) Old 04-19-2020, 05:01 PM
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Stunning....great Pics.

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post #11 of 22 (permalink) Old 04-19-2020, 05:04 PM Thread Starter
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I managed to find her breeding info

Sire: WP95201501 KALORA'S LATIN SENSATION

Dam: GG439064 CH MOONSPIERS PRAIRIE BREEZE CDX
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post #12 of 22 (permalink) Old 04-19-2020, 05:20 PM
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Quote:
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I managed to find her breeding info

Sire: WP95201501 KALORA'S LATIN SENSATION

Dam: GG439064 CH MOONSPIERS PRAIRIE BREEZE CDX
Geeze Instructor,

Her dam is Canadian but her grandsire was solidly American--goes back to Michelle Santanta's Foxfire breeding--I had a male who was closely related on the dam's side.

The sire of Kalora's Latin Sensation was Lex Luther but the dam's side is another solidly American line.

Kind of answers your question about South American dogs and their influence.

dobebug
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post #13 of 22 (permalink) Old 04-19-2020, 05:26 PM Thread Starter
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I know the male had just moved from Argentina to New York before the breeding
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post #14 of 22 (permalink) Old 04-19-2020, 05:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VZ-Doberman View Post
Is there any downside to having SA lines in a dog? TIA
I don't think so--but that's a personal opinion. I think most of the SA dogs and bitches that show up in AKC and CKC pedigrees today tend to improve the resulting offspring. And most of them go back to American dogs--as Kansa said earlier.

Look back a few generations and you find quite of few Marienberg dogs and Gold Grove dogs that played an important part of building the breed in Argentina and Brazil especially.

dobebug
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post #15 of 22 (permalink) Old 04-19-2020, 05:48 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dobebug View Post
Geeze Instructor,

Her dam is Canadian but her grandsire was solidly American--goes back to Michelle Santanta's Foxfire breeding--I had a male who was closely related on the dam's side.

The sire of Kalora's Latin Sensation was Lex Luther but the dam's side is another solidly American line.

Kind of answers your question about South American dogs and their influence.

dobebug
So is that a good thing?

She was my first Doberman and my focus was on health, I didn't know anything about bloodlines at the time

Did I luck my way into a good line ?

All I can really say is that Theadra, was a beautiful dog who absolutely lived up to my expectations of the breed. She earned her CD and CDX but probably could have gone even further if I had know what I was doing. She lived to just shy of her 11th birthday
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post #16 of 22 (permalink) Old 04-19-2020, 05:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Instructor View Post
I managed to find her breeding info

Sire: WP95201501 KALORA'S LATIN SENSATION

Dam: GG439064 CH MOONSPIERS PRAIRIE BREEZE CDX
Quote:
Originally Posted by dobebug View Post
Geeze Instructor,

Her dam is Canadian but her grandsire was solidly American--goes back to Michelle Santanta's Foxfire breeding--I had a male who was closely related on the dam's side.

The sire of Kalora's Latin Sensation was Lex Luther but the dam's side is another solidly American line.

Kind of answers your question about South American dogs and their influence.

dobebug
I agree with Bug - I wouldn't call your girl a South American dog. If you pull up one of the pedigrees of a sibling (Dobequestog Profile Page), you have one grandparent line that is South American (Argentinian) running out of the Lex Luthor side. Everything else is solidly North American.

What you had is a nice, well bred dog!

Edited to add, in fact, not all that different from what you see in a lot of NA dogs - like my girl. A great-grandparent that is SA. http://dobequest.org/pedigree.php?=1&DOGID=55050


DSC_0133
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Richter & Sypha
Glengate's Mountain Fortress CAA ORT L1E L1C NW2 L2V L2I ACT1 RATI SOG WAC
& Sirai's Golden Masquerade ORT L1V L1E L2C L2I NW2 RATI SOG DOG TKN WAC
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post #17 of 22 (permalink) Old 04-19-2020, 10:48 PM
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A lot of American and Canadian Dobermans have pedigrees that combine South American and North American lines - It's much more common than bringing in European lines among show breeders.
Estelle Corr is the breeder of Kalora's Latin Sensation - she was also the breeder of his dam under the Phantom name. Estelle is in New York. The dam was all American lines.
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AKC GRCH/UKC CH Fitzmar's Command A Minute CGC "Harvard"
Fitzmar's Victory Hop Devil RN CGC "Jezebel"
Ch Jalyn One Moment Please "Mabel"

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post #18 of 22 (permalink) Old 04-20-2020, 07:52 AM
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Quote:
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So is that a good thing?

She was my first Doberman and my focus was on health, I didn't know anything about bloodlines at the time

Did I luck my way into a good line ?

All I can really say is that Theadra, was a beautiful dog who absolutely lived up to my expectations of the breed. She earned her CD and CDX but probably could have gone even further if I had know what I was doing. She lived to just shy of her 11th birthday
You did great if you didn't know anything, IMO. Kalora has a lot of dogs in the longevity listings. She sounds like she was a great dog!
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DSC_0133
by Shanoa Delta, on Flickr

Richter & Sypha
Glengate's Mountain Fortress CAA ORT L1E L1C NW2 L2V L2I ACT1 RATI SOG WAC
& Sirai's Golden Masquerade ORT L1V L1E L2C L2I NW2 RATI SOG DOG TKN WAC
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post #19 of 22 (permalink) Old 04-20-2020, 11:24 PM
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I regularly mention South American lines, I do like them a lot.

I bred my girl in February to a son of Trotyl de Black Shadow, and she herself is linebred on Nello's Lex Luthor twice of which through Inaqui de Black Shadow. I remember being at the park a few years ago, there was this gentleman and a lady with a Vizsla and they were watching my girl observing her free stacks, running etc. Finally the woman approaches me and says her friend is asking what bloodlines she is from. And I respond she's a mixture of South American and North American bloodline. The gentleman's eyes lit up, and the lady translates from spanish for me, that he's a professional dog handler and dobermans are his favourite breed, that he's from Argentina and that he knew she had to have South American by her distinctive head.

But while I'd say they're distinct bloodlines, it's much easier to find a North American dog with recent SA influence and hard to find a dog here without any at all. I do know I've had breeders state they were trying to avoid them now. Ironically I know Brazilian and Argentinian breeders are starting to import more from Europe and sort of getting flooded with the popular European show lines but I hope enough breeders will continue to help preserve part of their distinct type.


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post #20 of 22 (permalink) Old 04-21-2020, 05:07 PM
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I could be wrong but doesn't Bravo (Protocol's To The Victor Go The Spoils) have some South American lines within him as well?

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post #21 of 22 (permalink) Old 04-21-2020, 05:20 PM
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Originally Posted by yuki_cos View Post
I could be wrong but doesn't Bravo (Protocol's To The Victor Go The Spoils) have some South American lines within him as well?
Many, many North American dogs do. You can look up a lot of pedigrees on Dobequest (dobequest.org).

Bravo has South American in the pedigree (Dobequestog Pedigree Page). You'll notice he shares a grandsire with my Sypha - Jet, CH Foxfire's All Star LCD-10, a very common sire, and Jet is sired by BIS BISS World Ch Am/Mex Ch Arg GRCh Inaqui De Black Shadow. Jet is a pretty famous sire.

On the other side of the pedigree, you see Inaqui again.

Other people far more experienced in pedigrees probably know even more about what's behind those dogs. You can keep clicking on dogs in the pedigrees on Dobequest and it will go back as far as people have entered information.


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post #22 of 22 (permalink) Old 04-21-2020, 05:24 PM
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Many, many North American dogs do. You can look up a lot of pedigrees on Dobequest (dobequest.org).

Bravo has South American in the pedigree (Dobequestog Pedigree Page). You'll notice he shares a grandsire with my Sypha - Jet, CH Foxfire's All Star LCD-10, a very common sire, and Jet is sired by BIS BISS World Ch Am/Mex Ch Arg GRCh Inaqui De Black Shadow. Jet is a pretty famous sire.

On the other side of the pedigree, you see Inaqui again.

Other people far more experienced in pedigrees probably know even more about what's behind those dogs. You can keep clicking on dogs in the pedigrees on Dobequest and it will go back as far as people have entered information.
Ah, I thought so but I wasn't 100% certain! I'm adding this to my list of things I learned today.

And I totally am not ashamed to admit that I do enjoy digging through the pedigrees on Dobequest........though some of my coworkers and friends call me crazy for being so fascinated with that!

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