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post #1 of 31 (permalink) Old 02-24-2020, 11:48 PM Thread Starter
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Getting a second?

I've currently got one 15 month old girl. She goes to doggy daycamp most weekdays. They've told me that she plays quite well there.

I also sometimes take her to the dog park. We've got a couple of mini soccer balls/smaller sized Jolly Pet balls. She gets super focused on chasing them at the dog park, mostly just completely ignoring all the other dogs and squabbles. She used to be more okay if another dog takes one of her balls, but recently she's started being protective of them (I'm trying to work on that). In particular one young male (perhaps 6 months) kept going after her balls, and now she has been growling at him if he gets too close.

We've recently been thinking of getting a second dog. There's a 12 week old male Doberman that we might be able to get.

I'm just debating whether or not it's a good idea or not.

It seems, from reading, that a lot of the reason why people enjoy two dogs is so that they can keep each other company during the day while they're at work. In this case, our current dog is at daycamp, so isn't lonely (and has activity).

I'm also a bit unsure of how she'd do with another dog in the house. On the one hand, she plays well at daycare, but on the other hand she's been showing protectiveness of her toys at the dog park.

Do you think it would be a good/bad idea for me to get another dobie?

Are there other thoughts/suggestions?
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post #2 of 31 (permalink) Old 02-25-2020, 09:10 AM
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Generally people wait till one dog is at least 3 yrs old before bringing in another dog. 15 months is still young and she is still a puppy herself and needs to mature. Has she been spayed if not when do you plan on doing the spay. Dobermans take some time to mature and do so around the age of three. I have two Dobermans, one female 5 yrs and one male 2 yrs. We got the male when the female was 3 yrs old. As a side note Dobermans do not do well at dog parks, yes everything is fine and then one day all hell breaks loose. Most people on DT will agree dog parks are a big No for Dobermans

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post #3 of 31 (permalink) Old 02-25-2020, 10:01 AM
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Personally, I think getting another dog (even though I usually make sure the youngest dog I presently have is at least 2 year and no more than 4 years before I bring in another puppy). I don't add a dog unless I want one to show--two dogs are a lot more work and problems (to say nothing of expense) than one.

But I absolutely don't take my Dobermans to dog parks--those are really disasters waiting to happen. And if anything goes wrong at a dog park you can count on the fact that the Dobermans will be blamed even if they were nowhere near the problem and had nothing to do with it.

Dog parks and Dobes just aren't a good fit.

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post #4 of 31 (permalink) Old 02-25-2020, 10:08 AM
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I've moved your thread so more people see it.

I have a couple of thoughts to share. First...I'm not a fan of people bringing toys to the dog park, if they use the dog park. It really creates a lot of unnecessary tension in dogs, as you're starting to see. What you're seeing is resource guarding, and it's a natural behavior in dogs, but it can really escalate and can create serious fights. It's especially NOT something you want to happen in a dog park. You have no idea if other dogs will take a toy that you bring, if they will guard it, if she's starting to guard it...you can have a very, very serious fight on your hands. If nothing else, please stop bringing toys to the park. Play with a ball somewhere else, where she isn't put in the situation of feeling like she has to "guard" her things. Start working on resource guarding at home - I really like Jean Donaldson's book "Mine! A Practical Guide to Resource Guarding in Dogs."

Are there toys out at her daycare? If so, I'd be really careful there.

Personally, I also like an age gap of more like 3 years. The older dog is much more trained and mature, while still young enough to enjoy another dog. Having two - you may end up with two "best buddies," you may end up with two that just simply co-exist, or you may end up with two dogs that dislike each other. If you decide to go ahead, you definitely want an opposite sex dog. Two dogs are definitely more than twice the work, more than twice the money, etc etc. I don't know why that's the case, but it sure seems to be!

You also have to make sure you spend a lot of time with each dog separately. Lots of time individually training, bonding, working together...you don't want the two to become OVERLY attached to each other, or you can have issues. Any bad habits your current dog has, anything not really, really trained right now...it'll get magnified. There WILL be backsliding when a puppy comes home.

All things to think about. And you could for sure end up with resource guarding from another dog. I had a serious resource guarder with my first. We couldn't have toys out, and any time I gave something for them to have (toys, chews, etc), both dogs had to be crated until they were done with them. It was definitely a management situation.


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post #5 of 31 (permalink) Old 02-25-2020, 10:24 AM
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As a side note Dobermans do not do well at dog parks, yes everything is fine and then one day all hell breaks loose. Most people on DT will agree dog parks are a big No for Dobermans
WoW !!!

Ok so I'm pretty new to DT but I have to say this really surprises me to read such a statement.

I've loved Dobermans since I first met one at the age of 7. When our golden retriever died 2 years later I immediately began to pester my parents to let me get a new dog, a Doberman. Well my parents would not let me have a Doberman because of course as we all know Dobermans are dangerous and aggressive dogs that can't be trusted and are only meant to be guard dogs......right ??
Well everyone here knows that's complete BS but I'm sure we have all heard such rumours.

When I finally got a Doberman I spent every day for 11 years at the dog park, many of those walks lasting 2-3 hours as every time we got ready to leave another one of her playmates would show up and we just had to go for one more lap. There were 8 other Dobermans who regularly walked at that park and I got to know them all, it's the "Dobersnob" in all of us that draws us to this breed. All of the Dobermans were fantastic ambassadors of the breed, all were incredibly well behaved and played well with all the other dogs.

I have always believed that all dogs, regardless of breed, only take on the personality of their owners and as such when I see a dog "not playing well with others" I blame the owner not the dog and certainly not the breed.
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post #6 of 31 (permalink) Old 02-25-2020, 10:26 AM
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Quote:
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WoW !!!

Ok so I'm pretty new to DT but I have to say this really surprises me to read such a statement.

I've loved Dobermans since I first met one at the age of 7. When our golden retriever died 2 years later I immediately began to pester my parents to let me get a new dog, a Doberman. Well my parents would not let me have a Doberman because of course as we all know Dobermans are dangerous and aggressive dogs that can't be trusted and are only meant to be guard dogs......right ??
Well everyone here knows that's complete BS but I'm sure we have all heard such rumours.

When I finally got a Doberman I spent every day for 11 years at the dog park, many of those walks lasting 2-3 hours as every time we got ready to leave another one of her playmates would show up and we just had to go for one more lap. There were 8 other Dobermans who regularly walked at that park and I got to know them all, it's the "Dobersnob" in all of us that draws us to this breed. All of the Dobermans were fantastic ambassadors of the breed, all were incredibly well behaved and played well with all the other dogs.

I have always believed that all dogs, regardless of breed, only take on the personality of their owners and as such when I see a dog "not playing well with others" I blame the owner not the dog and certainly not the breed.
I'm glad you had good luck at the dog park. MOST Dobes don't do well. Has nothing to do with owner behavior, has everything to do with the breed itself. Temperament is a thing. Breed traits are a thing.
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post #7 of 31 (permalink) Old 02-25-2020, 10:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Instructor View Post
WoW !!!

I have always believed that all dogs, regardless of breed, only take on the personality of their owners and as such when I see a dog "not playing well with others" I blame the owner not the dog and certainly not the breed.
Taking genetics out of the pictures is an unrealistic view.
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post #8 of 31 (permalink) Old 02-25-2020, 10:54 AM
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Dobes are known for same-sex aggression--not every single dobe is, and it is not necessarily a problem with every dog they meet--they are selective about who they will get along with. Dobes play too roughly for a lot of other dogs too, so you can run into problems suddenly and unexpectedly.

And it is definitely something you can't train out of them. You can teach them to be polite on-leash generally, but if they are off-leash and able to interact freely with other dogs, there is always the possibility of an argument starting up somewhere. Especially at a dog park where the dogs are in close proximity with other dogs who may be rude, poorly trained and basically unmonitored by their owners, who are more likely than not standing in a corner yucking it up with some other dog owner.

And even if your dog is trained, under control and accepting of other dogs, you never know about that other dog's personality.

That said--one of our local dog parks is really just a hiking trail--a loop of about a mile and half. Everyone pretty much stays on the trail and keeps moving, because the fields are full of yucca and overgrown stuff, so it is just a matter of passing by each dog as you walk along. No one is standing around talking and not paying much attention to their dogs. The dogs aren't really hanging around each other trying to pick fights quite a much as in the more typical park where people just stand in one place and let their dogs run randomly around with each other.

Even there I was careful with my dogs, but I kept my eyes open, and they had a decent "come" so I could call them back if I saw a troublesome looking dog in the distance. If I kept them moving (close to me in a controlled walk if necessary when we passed another set of dogs) we were OK there when the place was fairly empty.

There was no way I would take them there on the weekend or in that bright kind of weather which brings everyone out on a dog walk--it was too crowded. Dogs in groups running around en masse "greeting" a newcomer are worse than single dogs. But especially on days with rather nasty weather--cold, windy, muddy, snowy--I could have a pretty good walk there. And there is nothing quite like being on a walk with an off-leash dobe I must admit.

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post #9 of 31 (permalink) Old 02-25-2020, 11:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Instructor View Post
WoW !!!

Ok so I'm pretty new to DT but I have to say this really surprises me to read such a statement.

I've loved Dobermans since I first met one at the age of 7. When our golden retriever died 2 years later I immediately began to pester my parents to let me get a new dog, a Doberman. Well my parents would not let me have a Doberman because of course as we all know Dobermans are dangerous and aggressive dogs that can't be trusted and are only meant to be guard dogs......right ??
Well everyone here knows that's complete BS but I'm sure we have all heard such rumours.

When I finally got a Doberman I spent every day for 11 years at the dog park, many of those walks lasting 2-3 hours as every time we got ready to leave another one of her playmates would show up and we just had to go for one more lap. There were 8 other Dobermans who regularly walked at that park and I got to know them all, it's the "Dobersnob" in all of us that draws us to this breed. All of the Dobermans were fantastic ambassadors of the breed, all were incredibly well behaved and played well with all the other dogs.

I have always believed that all dogs, regardless of breed, only take on the personality of their owners and as such when I see a dog "not playing well with others" I blame the owner not the dog and certainly not the breed.

I've bolded the part of your statement that I want to address. This is simply not the case. We buy (or adopt) certain breeds because of the predictable traits that we like. Dog breeds (like Dobermans, or Golden Retrievers) are identifiable BECAUSE they've been bred for years and years to have certain predictable traits, and those traits aren't just looks. A Doberman doesn't act like a Golden, nor should it. Our breed traits are defined and actually stated in the breed standard. We do not want our breed to act like other breeds (nor do they want theirs to be like ours). A Doberman is not a Golden is not an Afghan is not a Greyhound is not a Pomeranian is not...etc. Certainly you mold your dog somewhat through training, but genetics are a powerful, powerful thing. If they weren't, you wouldn't have so many identifiable purebred dogs.

Per our breed standard, temperament: "Energetic, watchful, determined alert, fearless, loyal and obedient. The judge shall dismiss from the ring any shy or vicious Doberman.

Shyness: A dog shall be judged fundamentally shy if, refusing to stand for examination, it shrinks away from the judge; if it fears an approach from the rear; if it shies at sudden and unusual noises to a marked degree.

Viciousness: A dog that attacks or attempts to attack either the judge or its handier, is definitely vicious. An aggressive or belligerent attitude towards other dogs shall not be deemed viciousness."

I particularly want to highlight the last part. Dobermans were not bred to work with other dogs. Some are social. Some are not.

Additionally, adult dogs of ALL breeds are often less social than puppies. This is a very important read for all dog owners: https://badrap.org/training-resources/dogdog-tolerance

I consider myself very lucky that my two Dobermans are pretty social. My male is an anomaly - he's far on the "dog social" side of the spectrum. Really unusual. My female is very dog tolerant. EVEN WITH their personality, I'm well aware that this could change at any time, and I'm very vigilant.
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post #10 of 31 (permalink) Old 02-25-2020, 11:39 AM
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All of my Dobermans has started out as conformation dogs--on leash they are polite but not interested in meeting other dogs. I don't let puppies play with other dog while on leash because I know that down the line they are going to be showing and need to be well controlled and not expect meeting another dog or seeing another means play time.

People often ask me how dogs, like Dobes, know for same sex aggression, behave at shows when a lot of adult, mature intact males may be standing in a group waiting to go into a class.

The answer is training, and they generally behave very well.

But a dog off leash in the presence of other off leash dog is a whole different story. I often work my dogs near off leash dog parks (at a distance) for purposed of making sure they will work with distractions around when they are in an Obedience, Rally or Agility ring. And my dogs get along with each other at home--but even there I'm very careful about who I might put out loose in the yard with each other.

Some of the adult males go out together wearing muzzles--because I know that if the dog they are playing with gets too exuberant it can quickly escalate into a full blown fight. The muzzles serve only to keep dog A from biting dog B too hard.

I will absolute cop to being a Dober-snob--but I know the general temperament of the breed is enough to keep us out of dog parks.

And I've had exceptions. One of my males was very mellow--you could put him out with a herd of dogs, male, female, intact or not and he got along--he avoided any dog who was posturing and would just move along--but he was definitely the exception.

I also had an Afghan Hound who was an exception--the general rule is you don't keep small animals with Afghans--the Hounds tend to regard them as prey. But my Afghan not only got along with cats--his best friend was a cat and when we had the misfortune to not get a perfectly worthless cat spayed early enough--at 4 months she got pregnant and had a litter of four in the closet on my husbands shoes (he was soooo pleased with that)--we transferred her and the kittens to a box and my Hound raised the kittens--their mother came by a few times a day to feed them but the Afghan pottied them, cleaned them up slept with his head in their box for 8 weeks and the kittens grew up sleeping in his ears.

Within breed normal behavior there is always variation but you don't find many Afghan Hounds whose best friend is a cat much less is willing to raise a litter of kittens for a good for nothing mom.

Just so with Dobes--doesn't have anything to do with my personality, training or expectations--and I'll stick with the fact that I don't think, in general, that Dobes are good dog park dogs.

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post #11 of 31 (permalink) Old 02-25-2020, 12:22 PM
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from what I'm reading here and have actually seen at dog parks appears to me IMHO to be more an issue of dog owners believing in a stereo type and putting out an anxious vibe that is picked up by their dog.

I don't like kids and although I went to great lengths with all my dogs to see that they were properly socialized with every manor of person (kids, seniors, handicapped, black, white, Asian, male, female etc) I always noticed that my dogs would "avoid" kids just as I do.

When we are sick or emotionally down our dogs always seem to know and attempt to comfort us. When we get excited about something don't our dogs jump in and share in the exuberance.

The Doberman was "created" by a German tax collector who wanted a scary looking protection dog. To this day many people who generally like dogs are still afraid of Dobermans because of the stigma that has always surrounded the breed.

Any good dog behaviour specialist will tell you that the first step in trying to correct a dog who gets anxious about something be it a stranger, cars other dogs etc. is to be calm yourself. Dogs feel our energy and often times react exactly how we fear they "might".

The thought that my Doberman (or my Boxer or my Rottweiler) would ever show aggression to another dog that wasn't first aggressive towards them never crossed my mind. Whenever we would encounter another dog on our walks I would just say "Who's this now, a new friend ?"

Perhaps I have just been very lucky (along with all 8 of the other Doberman owners that I met) to have a happy friendly Doberman. Certainly I agree that traits of temperament have been "bred" into most breeds but again IMHO generalizing a breed as not being well suited to a dog park is a silly statement and I think those who believe it may actually be creating the problem on their own just by thinking it "could" happen.
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post #12 of 31 (permalink) Old 02-25-2020, 12:28 PM
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Perhaps I have just been very lucky (along with all 8 of the other Doberman owners that I met) to have a happy friendly Doberman. Certainly I agree that traits of temperament have been "bred" into most breeds but again IMHO generalizing a breed as not being well suited to a dog park is a silly statement and I think those who believe it may actually be creating the problem on their own just by thinking it "could" happen.
In a nutshell? Yes, you have been lucky.
I have owned 6 Dobermans, fostered several dozen, and trained with even more. Even my most rock-solid dog was not one I took to a dog park. It is not something he wants/needs and, while he won't start a confrontation, I have no doubt he wouldn't hesitate to end one if need be, especially if I were involved in anything. There is another thread on here about dog parks with a lot of great info you might want to read up on.

To the OP, I am following along as adding a second is on our radar, too. I have managed multiple dogs before, and find myself really enjoying just having one. It is awfully fun to have 2, though


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post #13 of 31 (permalink) Old 02-25-2020, 12:33 PM
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from what I'm reading here and have actually seen at dog parks appears to me IMHO to be more an issue of dog owners believing in a stereo type and putting out an anxious vibe that is picked up by their dog.

I don't like kids and although I went to great lengths with all my dogs to see that they were properly socialized with every manor of person (kids, seniors, handicapped, black, white, Asian, male, female etc) I always noticed that my dogs would "avoid" kids just as I do.

When we are sick or emotionally down our dogs always seem to know and attempt to comfort us. When we get excited about something don't our dogs jump in and share in the exuberance.

The Doberman was "created" by a German tax collector who wanted a scary looking protection dog. To this day many people who generally like dogs are still afraid of Dobermans because of the stigma that has always surrounded the breed.

Any good dog behaviour specialist will tell you that the first step in trying to correct a dog who gets anxious about something be it a stranger, cars other dogs etc. is to be calm yourself. Dogs feel our energy and often times react exactly how we fear they "might".

The thought that my Doberman (or my Boxer or my Rottweiler) would ever show aggression to another dog that wasn't first aggressive towards them never crossed my mind. Whenever we would encounter another dog on our walks I would just say "Who's this now, a new friend ?"

Perhaps I have just been very lucky (along with all 8 of the other Doberman owners that I met) to have a happy friendly Doberman. Certainly I agree that traits of temperament have been "bred" into most breeds but again IMHO generalizing a breed as not being well suited to a dog park is a silly statement and I think those who believe it may actually be creating the problem on their own just by thinking it "could" happen.
I'm curious about the lineage of your dogs, actually. I've personally noticed that dogs from breeders that are breeding to the standard, those preserving breed type, are more likely to have correct breed temperament. I see a much wider variety of temperament in Dobermans in rescue and in dogs from breeders that aren't breeding for show or work. Those temperaments seem to be all over the board, and far less typical of the breed.

I disagree that it is your training or attitude. The small number of good experiences you've had cannot override the thousands and thousands of experiences of people who have had Dobermans for 20-30 years, IMO.
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post #14 of 31 (permalink) Old 02-25-2020, 01:14 PM
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This is a doberman forum--most of the people you meet here are experienced owners of the breed; many have had multiple dobermans (and other breeds) over many years. You are not likely to find any here who are stuck on the stereotype of the doberman as a scary dog and are buying into the common public perception about the doberman being a vicious attack dog who can't be trusted around anyone or with other dogs.

There certainly are timid owners and people who get sucked into those beliefs--most would not be good owners for dobermans. They are not a breed for everyone to live with (I'm not being elitist here--no particular dog breed or dog type is a good breed for everyone to have.)

But frankly, you are talking on one of the most informed forums about dobermans and their behavior that you can find--from breeders, show folks and trainers to ordinary people involved in all kinds of dobe sports (obedience, rally, agility, protection sports for example), and just plain pet owners. Really

I wouldn't totally discount the opinions you've gotten here because your individual dog's personality is on the sociable side.

Remember too, that those dobes you see at a dog park may be the ones who are the best behaved around other dogs--owners with dobes who don't fit in are likely finding other ways to exercise their dogs and keep them happy with their lives. Self-selection, in a sense.



We are not saying you shouldn't have multiple dobes--though if you do have two, you really should choose two that are opposite sexes--one male, one female. We are just saying that they are not very good dogs to take to dog parks. Based on a lot of experience, not just public hearsay and anecdotal stories.

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post #15 of 31 (permalink) Old 02-25-2020, 01:44 PM
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My dog was an intact dominant male. No fear. Civilized to the max. Was surrounded every weekend with all different breeds/sexes/intact or not/ages/temperaments. He was attacked 4 or 5 times. He was never the aggressor. Did he fight back?......oh brother you better believe it. He was rock solid steady standing shoulder to shoulder with other males in that chaotic strum at the ring gate. Even with those border collies being worked up within a couple of feet of him or another dog shoving its nose up his ass, he never was reactive. All that said, I would NEVER, EVER take him to a dog park. Not because he might get into a fight but because of the other owners with dogs not as solid as he was. This is not a breed for a dog park.
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post #16 of 31 (permalink) Old 02-25-2020, 01:44 PM
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Now dang it , What was the original question here ? Wait a second - I have to go back up and check it .

Oh yeah - About getting a second Amir - Welcome to DT ! We have had several Pairs of Dogs - 2 pair of Dobermans with a Aussie - They were great ! We have also had Doberman pairs . This may sound crazy to yeah - but when you have 2 Dobermans together - It's not double the work , more like X's 5 sometimes - lol No kidding ! The first pair was a spread of 5 years , and now - it's going to be the same amount - both were to be sooner than that , like 3 or 4 years but things just happened - It looked like we were going to get Mr. Business a new Sister at 4 - but the dog lost the littler , which was only one to begin with , But were still working on it . I agree that 3 to 4 year range would be great to do .

From our ( my ) personal experiences - If I had 2 Doberman pups only 15 months apart and they acted like Mr. Business did -- I would not be typing this response here on DT ---- I would be in the nut house Like someone said - 15 months , they have a ton of pup in them , I think it takes males longer to lose the pup more than the females - anyway the ones we have had , that's what has happened .

You want to have time in between them to get the first one trained - take it to puppy classes , maybe some good OB classes and have her in control - Work with her and work with her - So when you get the second one you don't have 2 pups - but a well mannered girl .


Ours always got along fine - play together , eat together and sleep together - BUT - there was 2 times that Kasia gave Ali the teeth look with a lite growl , which both the wife and I witness's - And Put a stop to that right there and it didn't take much either ! If we were not here , I have no idea what would have happened . When we leave , they were not left together - One stayed here in my office the other had the run of the house . We just never trusted the 2 together and us not here .

As far as 2 vs only one - We lost a gal last fall and down to 1 - it is just too damn quite here And we sure miss the Chaos - lol And if you get another - you will under what I'm saying

We are fortunate - make that very fortunate - I'm self employed as well as my Lovely wife , so there is one us here almost all the time - So can not address the doggy day care . Speaking for our Dobers - and knowing them like the back of my hand ( Our Hands ) it would not been a good mix - reason is they all act like there owner = A big A-hole

Stick around and ask questions - its a lot of fun on here + a few million years of experience to help you out

Doc

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post #17 of 31 (permalink) Old 02-25-2020, 01:57 PM
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From our ( my ) personal experiences - If I had 2 Doberman pups only 15 months apart and they acted like Mr. Business did -- I would not be typing this response here on DT ---- I would be in the nut house Like someone said - 15 months , they have a ton of pup in them , I think it takes males longer to lose the pup more than the females - anyway the ones we have had , that's what has happened .

Doc
This is a very good point! Our boy is about to turn 4 and I am just now seeing him sort of acting like a grown up I am now thinking maybe we will add a girl soon-ish (like in a year or so).


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post #18 of 31 (permalink) Old 02-25-2020, 02:00 PM
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My old gal went to the dog park for the first 3 years of her life. Our dog park was a 30 acre old conservation area that you could walk trails and there were streams that Coco liked to play in. We went there usually by ourselves and walked the trails. There were different fields that were play areas but Coco was selective in who she interacted with. She liked to run not really play with other dogs. She absolutely hated boxers and of course they were drawn to her.

Several times we went to the park with other ladies who had Dobereich dogs. We walked the trails while they ran in a pack and explored. As long as there was an even number of dobes it was fine but odd numbers did not work out because someone was always the 3rd wheel. Strange eh but i paid attention because even though they usually got along you never can tell what may happen.

Eventually we found the pond by our house and the other ladies moved away so Coco and i spent our time at the pond watching nature and her running offleash. She lived until she was almost 10 and only hung out sometimes with my friends old pug named Milo. Coco would lay on the ground so Milo could jump on her for a few minutes until he got tired out and was content to just lay beside her.

When Sugar was very young he could play with all dogs. As he started to sexually mature as an unaltered male, he started to get fixated on playing with 1 female that he decided to like and then would not let any males or females around them. This is how the female dobe bit him in the ear and he had to get stitches for. She was upset he wasn't paying attention to her.

Male dogs did not like him and would fixate on him. I tease that Sugar's brain needs to grow still which it does but that boy will not back down from a fight and puffs his chest up more. So he cannot play in groups of dogs anymore.

Sugar has 1 friend now. An 8 year old female pug (see a pattern here) named Juliet who comes over to play. She bosses him around like nobody's business and he loves it. He lays down so he is eye level with her. She tires him out with their crazy playing. She gives as good as she gets. They are quite funny together.

Be careful at the dog park. Its ok until it is not and it is ok for your dog not to like all dogs. I don't like all people so i don't expect my dogs to like everyone either.



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post #19 of 31 (permalink) Old 02-25-2020, 02:17 PM
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I do apologize for taking a side track, I actually do have a comment on the original thread post

I got my Doberman in 2002, a beautiful female who despite MY long slow learning curve in dog sport actually managed to earn her CD and CDX.

When she was 4 my gf moved in with her 7 year old male Jack Russell terrier and I have to say my Doberman got along with him better then I did. Two years later we rescued a 14 month old male Boxer and from the day we brought him home my Doberman had a new best friend. The Boxer also got along great with the Jack, playing very gentle with him.

Having 3 dogs in a fairly small townhouse was a lot of work but it was very rewarding too. I think you really see the depth of your dogs personality when you have more then one.

I can't speak to the question of what age the first dog should be before adding a second, that's just not something I'm informed enough about to comment. In my opinion however I would suggest you have a solid foundation of obedience training on the first dog so hopefully he will be a good influence on he new one.
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post #20 of 31 (permalink) Old 02-25-2020, 02:18 PM
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Not because he might get into a fight but because of the other owners with dogs not as solid as he was.

Sort of reminds of them owners and them damn retract leads
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post #21 of 31 (permalink) Old 02-25-2020, 02:46 PM
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Hi Instructor.

Here is my experience...

Some Dobermans do "OK" at dog parks. Especially if the # of dogs is limited and the other dogs are are generally well behaved.

Then, there are Dobermans who may initially fit in with a mixed group of dogs only to have things go terribly wrong at some point.

There are also quite reactive Dobermans who can NEVER be in a group of strange dogs.

Let me tell you emphatically, when things go South with Dobermans in a dog/dog interaction, it can be the experience from hell. Literally... For you, the Doberman, the other dog and it's owner.

By and large, Dobermans don't seem to interact well in a melee of uncontrolled dogs. This is especially true when "clueless" owners/handlers are tossed into the mix.

Couple this with the facts that Dobermans are incredibly powerful agile dogs with a very strong bite AND are one of the breeds prone to Same Sex Aggression, and a Dobe at a dog park is basically a disaster waiting to happen. Hence, to be avoided.

Now, I have actually had 2 male households and I have also had a Dobe who was "OK" at most dog parks. But this particular boy was a massive stoic dog whose mere presence caused both people and dogs to shy away from him. With the exception of his "brother" Doberman he did not interact with other dogs. He never growled and never barked. He simply turned and stared. Both the friendliest and surliest of dogs avoided him.

My youngest is a sweetheart. He is never off leash in public. He also never barks or growls when out and about. He has never been aggressive towards other dogs, although they are towards him. Still... When he was young, he was attacked (while on leash) by a very large Pit mix who got away from his owner. The ensuing fight was terrifying. McCoy walked away unscathed, both physically and emotionally. The Pit, not so much.

There were witnesses and my boy was exonerated.However, had it not been a Pit bull that he was involved with, who do you thing would have been blamed? Especially if someone other than the dog had been bitten or maimedLike it or not, in any kind of altercation, the Doberman (or Pit bull, or German Shepherd, or Rottweiler etc.) almost always gets the finger pointed at them. Breed Specific Bias is a real issue with some dogs.

So at the risk of sounding a bit hypocritical, I will, these days, always discourage the average Doberman owner from frequenting leash free dog parks and group encounters.

JMO

John Lichtwardt, McCoy and The Sheriff
Portland OR
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post #22 of 31 (permalink) Old 02-25-2020, 03:02 PM
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In a nut shell ~ "Not because he might get into a fight but because of the other owners with dogs not as solid as he was. This is not a breed for a dog park."

"Lots of people talk to animals...Not very many listen, though...That's the problem. " ~ The Tao of Pooh
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post #23 of 31 (permalink) Old 02-25-2020, 03:54 PM
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We went against the advice of a 2nd Dobe separated by 2-3 yr. back in 2012, when we adopted Eva at age 2, just a bit younger (3 mo.) than Spock.


DOBES! - Shape Up or Ship Out!






They have gotten along great together, and with mutt Lanah, for last 8 years. You have to give each separate training, playtime and affection time away from the other Dobe. Eva acts totally different and rambunctious when Spock is not around. She plays tug, retrieve and chase with me then. When a Spock is around Eva, he wants to hoard all the play action and attention. Spock has a pretty hard play style, as you'll see in video below.

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We took Spock to a regular, very spacious & nice public dog park until age 3, where he did good and still had a puppy brain. He loved to run around like a maniac and retrieve balls that I threw. I made the mistake of bringing some of his Frisbees to use at the park and both Spock and a Mastiff when to retrieve the Frisbee after being thrown. The Mastiff left a set of bite marks on Spock's right side during tussle for the Frisbee. I found that the troublemaker dogs in the park were never supervised by the owners and went around raising havoc. After that, I took him on a leash several times, very early in the morning and the only other dog at the park was a trouble maker who came up to Spock aggressively barking. I put myself between Spock and this dog and we worked our way to the exit quickly. Eva was always great a dog parks, just interested in digging big holes in the soft soil for herself, and ignoring other dogs.

Spock's Tries "Agility" at Dog Park (Age 2)




After we stopped going to the dog parks after age 3, we started going to the regular parks with the hiking/biking trails, with the whole pack in tow, on leashes. Here our dogs experienced passing bikes, scooters, runners, dogs, babies in carriages, etc. and we got good and safe exercise. Having two or more dogs is good for exercising in your own yard with known dogs.

We've had both Dobes attend HADR (Houston Area Doberman Rescue) "Doberfest" events held several times/year on their farm grounds. It's cool to see so many Dobes playing together in one horse corral! Sometimes there is a troublemaker Dobe that barks continuously (like in video), but on the whole things goes very well, unlike the dog parks.


Spock Having Blast at HADR Doberfest 2012 Video
(click to Play)




Spock Rough Play With New Doberpal, Leroy, at Doberfest Video




Ten Doberman Rules
Poke Everything.
It's New? Bark At It.
Moves? Chase It.
Doesn't Move? Smell It.
Liquid? Spill and Dribble It.
Treat or Food? Wolf It Down.
Not Food? Chew It Slowly, Be Quiet & Hide From Human.
A Toy? Shred & Destroy It.
Stuffed? De-Stuff It.
Bites You Back? Wrestle It!

Last edited by spocksdad; 02-25-2020 at 04:20 PM.
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post #24 of 31 (permalink) Old 02-25-2020, 05:28 PM
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One thing about having a few years between them and waiting until your older dog is well trained...the younger pup will learn from your older one. Some of that may be bad habits of course but if you, say, ask your older dog to sit and give him a treat, the younger will take a look at the reward and figure out the "sit on command" all by himself. If your older dog has a good come, the younger will learn a good one too just by tagging along. We used to play the "whoever sits (or downs) the fastest gets the treat first" game. It's amazing how fast they get on commands that way.

I posted this video just recently, but at the risk of boring those who have seen it before, I'll do it again. This is the down game, advanced version


Last edited by melbrod; 02-25-2020 at 05:30 PM.
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post #25 of 31 (permalink) Old 02-25-2020, 09:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Instructor View Post

The Doberman was "created" by a German tax collector who wanted a scary looking protection dog. To this day many people who generally like dogs are still afraid of Dobermans because of the stigma that has always surrounded the breed.

Any good dog behaviour specialist will tell you that the first step in trying to correct a dog who gets anxious about something be it a stranger, cars other dogs etc. is to be calm yourself. Dogs feel our energy and often times react exactly how we fear they "might".

I won't go back through all the important points already made by others but I wanted to quickly point out two things to consider in response to this bit here that I've pulled out.

First of all, Dobermann didn't just create a scary looking dog. He bred a dog who was a serious body guard. A dog that would give their life in an attack to protect their person. As Meadowcat stated, they don't just look different from other dogs. They ARE different from other dogs. A well bred Foxhound might be willing to give his life protecting you. But a well bred Doberman absolutely should be willing to. That requires an entirely different default state of mind, overall disposition, and spectrum of traits. And those aren't traits to take lightly. Stigma or not, the Doberman is a serious dog that needs thoughtful ownership.

Also, I won't dispute that dogs can pick up on owner anxieties and stress. But I think you're incorrect in assuming that a Dobe will only have problems with other dogs because they're anxious or stressed. Some Dobermans are actually highly confident and low on tolerance for other dogs, but they aren't worried or stressed about it one bit. They're just really serious about it and they'll absolutely take an opportunity if one arises.



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