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post #1 of 26 (permalink) Old 02-21-2020, 08:42 AM Thread Starter
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Honestly??? (And don’t kill me for asking)

If you have pedigrees on two dogs showing nothing but impressive titles going back at least the last seven generations, and you acquire a puppy from each of these lines and decide not to show them for personal reasons, ie, no time, no money, believe a lot of titles are “bought”, just not interested, etc.
If those puppies still conform very accurately to the standard, have excellent temperaments, and have had all availability health screenings, with excellent results,
Then why does breeding them make you a horrible person and a “BYB”?
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post #2 of 26 (permalink) Old 02-21-2020, 08:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jt17 View Post
Its not that i was directly attacked, but the general concensus seems to be that anyone who would breed or support someone who bred a dilute is irresponsible. And the reasin my gripe ended up where it did is because my dogs are decendents of Dankan Dax Altobello who i find to be extraordi arily good breeding stock. There is alot of Altobello / Kimbertal cross in my bloodlines and im proud of it.

Just throwing that out there..

A quick search on this forum for Kimbertal can tell you everything you want to know about other members views/opinions on why this breeder isn't a fan favorite.
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post #3 of 26 (permalink) Old 02-21-2020, 09:59 AM
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Based on the information provided by Chesa, it doesn't matter what you do - Kimbertal is a terrible kennel producing oversized, badly bred, temperamental messes. I live in their fallout zone and the vast majority of the dogs in our rescue are from Kimbertal.

Start with better quality animals.

And yes, breeding without proving the dogs in your possession DOES make you a BYB. It's laziness, pure and simple.

You live in an area with active clubs. Please, join them and LEARN from the people running them. You have a ton of knowledge right at your fingertips! Take advantage of it!
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post #4 of 26 (permalink) Old 02-21-2020, 10:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jt17 View Post
If you have pedigrees on two dogs showing nothing but impressive titles going back at least the last seven generations, and you acquire a puppy from each of these lines and decide not to show them for personal reasons, ie, no time, no money, believe a lot of titles are “bought”, just not interested, etc.
If those puppies still conform very accurately to the standard, have excellent temperaments, and have had all availability health screenings, with excellent results,
Then why does breeding them make you a horrible person and a “BYB”?
I'm curious if you believe the part I put in bold? Do you believe that to be true of conformation, of sports, of...?

In my experience in sports, earning titles is HARD. Maybe earning lure coursing titles like a CA is not difficult, if your dog has a high prey drive (like my Richter), but earning obedience, agility, nosework titles...it takes a LOT of work and dedication and training. And watching my conformation friends - they are certainly not "buying" any titles! I see them work hard with their dogs, training them, working with them, showing them. Some dogs "finish" quickly (and they tend to be very nice dogs!), but they aren't simply "buying" a title.

I'm very curious about this statement...
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post #5 of 26 (permalink) Old 02-21-2020, 11:16 AM
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I'd really like to know how one buys titles.
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post #6 of 26 (permalink) Old 02-21-2020, 11:24 AM
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So, you posted in June of 2019 that you planned to breed...I'm assuming you've decided to do that without titling your three puppies?

From here: https://www.dobermantalk.com/breedin...mbertal-5.html
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jt17 View Post
Does anyone EVER AGREE on who is a REPUTABLE BREEDER? I want to start breeding, but it seems as though no matter what you do somebody is gonna slam your reputation... if EVERYONE can AGREE on what a REPUTABLE BREEDER is then thats exactly what ill do, and in no time everyone will CHANGE there OPINION of whats REPUTABLE...
And why SO MUCH HATRED for DILUTES??? I have HEALTHY DILUTES that MEET THE BREED STANDARD. They are good looking dogs with DOZENS OF CHAMPION TITLES in their PEDEGREE. AND ABSOLUTELY, I'll be reproducing them for the "BETTERMENT" AND of the breed. What a joke.... WHO is the ALTIMATE AUTHORITY on what the "BETTERMENT OF THR BREED" Is?
That phrase has lost its connotation...
Just makes me sick that everypne GOSSIPS & HATES on everyone like a bunch of FICKLE FEMALES 🙄
OK, lets have it....UNLOAD ON ME to PROVE ME RIGHT...


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post #7 of 26 (permalink) Old 02-21-2020, 11:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VZ-Doberman View Post
I'd really like to know how one buys titles.
Well, IABCA championship titles aren't that hard....


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post #8 of 26 (permalink) Old 02-21-2020, 11:35 AM
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Perhaps he's referring to conformation titles overseas.
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post #9 of 26 (permalink) Old 02-21-2020, 11:52 AM
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Just breeding dogs together without having some sort of way to evaluate the output via a 3rd party that is somewhat objective definitively puts anyone in BYB territory, no matter if the pedigree and titles behind the dogs was exceptional. Breeding is not easy and one can royally screw up a line quickly if there is no evaluation on what one is doing.

Heck, even reputable breeders that are titling, fully testing, run into issues that they did not expect.

Breeding well is not easy. BYBing is super easy.
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post #10 of 26 (permalink) Old 02-21-2020, 12:57 PM
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Yes these titles are purchased since it does take much money and time to accomplish.
You speak of a history of titles in your dogs lineage as a credibility but will not have your dog proven against the current crop of dobermans since the process is flawed.???

If the goal of breeding is to make puppies then you are probably a BYB , but if you are looking to get characteristics that enhance while conforming to a breed standard i would be open minded to that program. Most BYB's know only one characteristic and that is to put the largest female and the largest male together with no foresight past that decision.
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post #11 of 26 (permalink) Old 02-21-2020, 03:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VZ-Doberman View Post
I'd really like to know how one buys titles.
VZ -- Well huh - I think he's talking about money under the table -- so to speak Or like buying your way into college - Oh I mean a Donation to the Alum Sorry about that
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post #12 of 26 (permalink) Old 02-21-2020, 04:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jt17 View Post
If you have pedigrees on two dogs showing nothing but impressive titles going back at least the last seven generations, and you acquire a puppy from each of these lines and decide not to show them for personal reasons, ie, no time, no money, believe a lot of titles are “bought”, just not interested, etc.
If those puppies still conform very accurately to the standard, have excellent temperaments, and have had all availability health screenings, with excellent results,
Then why does breeding them make you a horrible person and a “BYB”?
Questions back to you:

What makes all THREE of your Babies (as they still are) worthy of being bred? What will the breed gain by them breeding? In most litters of 10-11 puppies only 1 or 2 puppies might ever get bred but all 3 of your puppies are deserving? Do you know that breeding dilute to dilute almost always leads to alopecia aka going bald? Also, you still have a lot of time to think about this as you can't do most of the health testing until 2 years old at the earliest. That's when you can do OFA hips, thyroid sent to MSU echocardiogram, holter monitor and I like to do a full blood panel as well. I'd like to tell you I'm exaggerating but be prepared to drop at least $1,000 per dog to get these done. I know because I just did them all in one weekend lol. And that's if you take them to dog shows and get it done the cheapest way.

Titles don't make the puppy, dogs do. You can breed two champion conformation dogs and get a litter of pets. Nearly 100% of the euro dogs sent over to the US are closer to pets than show prospects. They likely purchased the titles in Europe by going to small shows and then they get some titles and then ship them to the US for BYBs to boast of their titles. If the dog was truly worthy it would stay in Europe, either with the breeder or close by.

Have you researched the pedigrees of all 3 dogs? How each dog at least 4 gens back passed away and how their siblings passed away? What issues run in the lines? If they're K-Tal I can tell you with great certainty that cardio runs in their lines. How are you going to deal with a puppy buyer coming to you when their puppy dropped dead at 2 years old from DCM? How will you get hold of puppy buyers to tell them YOUR dogs dropped dead at 4? What kind of contracts will you have with the buyers? What kind of registration will you give them? How will you protect your puppies from ending up in a shelter?

I'm not trying to barrage you with questions but I'm trying to get you to think about long term. How much do you know about the past of your dogs aka their pedigrees, how much do you know about their current health and what will you do in the future to protect your puppies or if something happens? The bottom line is you bought your puppies with the intention of breeding and for breeding and to me THAT is what makes a BYB. I personally don't have a huge issue with someone breeding dogs without titles if they know everything about the dogs in their lines and they do all of the proper health testing, and only sell on limited registration, with contracts and puppies leave microshiped but I think those people are unicorns because I've yet to meet one.
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post #13 of 26 (permalink) Old 02-21-2020, 04:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jt17 View Post
If you have pedigrees on two dogs showing nothing but impressive titles going back at least the last seven generations, and you acquire a puppy from each of these lines and decide not to show them for personal reasons, ie, no time, no money, believe a lot of titles are “bought”, just not interested, etc.
If those puppies still conform very accurately to the standard, have excellent temperaments, and have had all availability health screenings, with excellent results,
Then why does breeding them make you a horrible person and a “BYB”?

Honestly, if you don't have money to show or compete with your dogs ever, then you probably don't have money to breed or raise a litter when it comes to Dobermans. Health tests, stud fees, and then the costs of actually raising the litter are quite high.

And that's assuming you get off easy with a smooth labor and delivery, which is not always the case. C-sections aren't cheap in Dobermans either (or in any other breed that I'm aware of).

However, I'll bite on the rest of it.

It doesn't make you a horrible person and a BYB if it happens every now and then. Sometimes, good breeders have dogs that they don't title for various reasons here and there. But I'd say it's definitely a red flag if its standard operating procedure to acquire dogs and never compete or title them but breed and breed and breed.

One reason is kennel blindness. How do you know if your dogs conform to the standard if you're never having them evaluated by an impartial but knowledgeable party? And if you're never getting out and seeing other dogs firsthand and putting your hands on them?

Another reason is limiting your own knowledge and experience when you never train or compete. How do you know the depth and breadth of temperament(s) you're producing if you never train, compete, and title?

Really, if all one does is obtain dogs and breed them, the only thing anyone can be absolutely certain of is the fertility of the dogs.

There are plenty people who will give you money because you have fertile dogs and you let them hump twice per year but that doesn't earn you the label of a "good breeder" and it certainly doesn't set you in the ranks or company of those individuals who do health test, work, and title their dogs.
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post #14 of 26 (permalink) Old 02-21-2020, 04:47 PM
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Hey where can I "buy one of those titles"...… hahahaha.

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post #15 of 26 (permalink) Old 02-21-2020, 05:25 PM
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Rats--DT/CT ate another post--I think if you look around Jt17 oif you check it out I think you'll find that no one "HATES" dilution--but I know breeders hate explaining to buyers of dilute puppies that the lovely blue puppy or fawn puppy may not have a good coat due to the fact that chances are good that CDA will rear it's ugly hear with the adult dog.

I waited for more than 40 years for my show quality fawn male. He was worth the wait. Not only was his breeding impeccable from a very good breeder but he finished his championship pretty easily, mostly under Dobe breeder judges, went out and played in the Obedience, Rally and Agility rings, lived long and was healthy (14 years--I lost him around Thanksgiving last year) and retained a full coat all of his long life. And he had a fabulous temperament.

I'll second the opinion that if you don't have the time, money or inclination to show your intended breeding stock in conformation or any of the performance venues then you don't have time to breed a litter and you don't have the money to breed a litter.

And over the time I've been playing with Dobes in Conformation, Obedience, Rally, Agility and Tracking I've seen a fair number of the dogs that people who don't do those things think are suitable for breeding. I think they haven't seen enough excellent dogs or good workers or those with top notch temperaments to make that kind of judgement.

But, that's just me...

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post #16 of 26 (permalink) Old 02-21-2020, 05:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MeadowCat View Post
I'm curious if you believe the part I put in bold? Do you believe that to be true of conformation, of sports, of...?

In my experience in sports, earning titles is HARD. Maybe earning lure coursing titles like a CA is not difficult, if your dog has a high prey drive (like my Richter), but earning obedience, agility, nosework titles...it takes a LOT of work and dedication and training. And watching my conformation friends - they are certainly not "buying" any titles! I see them work hard with their dogs, training them, working with them, showing them. Some dogs "finish" quickly (and they tend to be very nice dogs!), but they aren't simply "buying" a title.

I'm very curious about this statement...
Heck, even the fun, online/video titles I put on my dogs take some degree of work.


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post #17 of 26 (permalink) Old 02-21-2020, 06:44 PM
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The only thing I have to add to the conversation is this-
How deep is your bank account? You should ask yourself, "Self, if something goes awry with this pregnancy, do I have enough money in the bank to adequately take care of my pregnant mother and all of her puppies no matter what the cost" and are you willing to do that without hesitation. Case in point, the post I put up recently of the man who had a "show and working dog" that he bred and then inadequately sought medical care and resorted to turning to the facebook, and ultimately a rescue to try and save her.. She died as well as 5 of the 8 puppies.

If you don't have the money to title your dog or the time, I'm not sure you'd be adequately secure in your finances to even think about breeding her.
I've always lived by the motto, 'Just because you can, doesn't mean you should'
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post #18 of 26 (permalink) Old 02-22-2020, 08:30 AM Thread Starter
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First of all, to all the “snipers” out there... the question was hypothetical. I asked because every time someone asks a question that has anything to do with breeding everyone is like “you shouldn’t be asking questions, what makes you think your dog can improve the breed, what titles do you have?”
I’m just saying, let’s be honest. Titled dogs can have “****” pups, and untitled dogs can have premium specimens. If the goal is to better the breed a piece of paper means nothing compared to quality pups. All I’m saying is that a dog with the highest regarded titles in all of the different types of competition will have the same puppies whether they competed or not. So it’s like saying even if you have the dog that the standard was created from, it shouldn’t be bred if it wasn’t shown... why not? The puppies will be of the same caliber as they would if that same dog was shown and won the Westminster.
And when I say titles are bought, isn’t it true that the better the handler the better your chances of winning in most cases? (Don’t deny it, you know it’s true) so it becomes a popularity contest. And yeah, some judges are crooked.
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post #19 of 26 (permalink) Old 02-22-2020, 09:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jt17 View Post
First of all, to all the “snipers” out there... the question was hypothetical. I asked because every time someone asks a question that has anything to do with breeding everyone is like “you shouldn’t be asking questions, what makes you think your dog can improve the breed, what titles do you have?”
I’m just saying, let’s be honest. Titled dogs can have “****” pups, and untitled dogs can have premium specimens. If the goal is to better the breed a piece of paper means nothing compared to quality pups. All I’m saying is that a dog with the highest regarded titles in all of the different types of competition will have the same puppies whether they competed or not. So it’s like saying even if you have the dog that the standard was created from, it shouldn’t be bred if it wasn’t shown... why not? The puppies will be of the same caliber as they would if that same dog was shown and won the Westminster.
And when I say titles are bought, isn’t it true that the better the handler the better your chances of winning in most cases? (Don’t deny it, you know it’s true) so it becomes a popularity contest. And yeah, some judges are crooked.
If you are truly asking an honest question, for me, it would really depend on the breeder. If you have a long time, experienced breeder breeding an untitled dog, with generations of dogs with titles behind them, yes, I trust them to understand the standard, know what they are looking at in their dogs, truly understand temperament, and make good breeding decisions. That was done more often in the past, and is still done, occasionally. You might have a bitch that didn't finish because she hated being shown, or had an injury. You might have a bitch with a spectacular sister who has similar traits and the breeder chooses to use her for a good reason. From someone who has a good track record? I have no issues with that.

If the "someone" doing the breeding bought a couple of dogs, has never bred, and is making those choices? Nope. Why? Because they don't know anything, and don't even know what they don't know. How can they assess their dog's structure? Temperament? How can they choose a good match for their bitch? Assess the pedigrees? They have zero knowledge base. Breeding is more than simply looking at the pedigree of a dog and saying "that looks good."

As to your comment about better handlers winning, well...of course a professional handler is going to be...better. It's their job. That doesn't mean that it's unfair. Owner handled dogs win, too, and the dog that is the best dog is supposed to win. I know plenty of non-professionals that win all the time, over a professional. Is it sometimes not that way? I'm sure people would say so. I don't compete in conformation. But I think overall my conformation friends would say the sport is generally about the dogs, and the judging is generally fair. If you have a good dog, that dog will do well. It's easy to look at it from the outside and judge it. If you aren't involved in the sport I don't think you have any say, frankly. If you have a good dog who meets the standard you'll do well. If you aren't willing to get out there and try it but simply badmouth it, well...you really have no business having an opinion about it.
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post #20 of 26 (permalink) Old 02-22-2020, 09:37 AM
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17 - I do understand where you are going with this , I have never had any show dogs - So I may be totally off base here and sure I will be corrected for any mis-statements But I have been evolved with the Show world out there . I will start at the bottom and work my way up .

[B]You bet your Bippy your chances are better ! Why ? They are Professionals at what they do ! They probably started out as Junior Handlers - They are the best of the best -- period ! If you had a top 20 - would you have a rookie show it - or a pro ? The handler is just important in the ring as the dog - maybe even more so - Mishandled dogs have no chance in showing what they really have to show . . I can not believe the hard work and dedication to detail they put in , there work is NEVER done .

As far as popularity contest , Yeah I'm sure some are more popular - reason - they are Pros and bring out the best in the dog - they are popular because you know what's coming next - a outstanding job - not the popularity of they have a pretty smile .

I agree - sometimes even the great dogs can have a bad pup - it just happens

Now its time for my run around the barn lot -sorry - but I think this will help you understand a little better . Back many moons ago when I was showing - One summer I hit the road showing 2 of our farm raised gals I had raised here - the best I had ever had - there was something like 5 , 2 day shows back to back - one was breed only and the next day was a open show - In the breed shows - I came in 22 to 23 out of 24 in the class - yet in the open shows - I came in in 2nd place every show - Why ? In the breed class- they had been in it lots longer than I - they had all the testing done - top of the line breeding programs , you name it - they were known for this ! The Judge was judging breed standards at that time - where the open was more in the likes of a commercial herd of the day - BIG difference ! The tildes and the health testing go hand in hand - Ok - you do all the breeding right - all the testing - the tidal work confirms what you have been trying to accomplish . Anyway - this is just me thinking out loud here in what I have seen .

Like I said - I see where your coming from - but it just is not that simple to do and succeed with out the whole program

Dc

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post #21 of 26 (permalink) Old 02-22-2020, 10:17 AM
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It is very easy with your own dog to focus on the dog's good points and sorta gloss over the places where he or she is not up to par. An outside opinion is truly necessary, especially if you're new to the process, to tell you if your dog is really as fantastic as you think it is--because, let's face it, ALL dobes are fantastic to their loving owner , but only some are truly good enough to be bred.

You can and will certainly have pet quality pups with any breeding, and it is possible to have a quality dog with wonderful conformation and temperament with untested parents, but the odds are much higher that will happen if the breeding pair have already been "tested" for excellence. We do health testing to make sure the dog has no condition which would make him a poor choice to breed; some health problems may not be readily observable by the owner. "Testing" a dog in the show arena or by getting performance titles to show his working ability is really much the same.

A good breeder ensures that they are not simply "kennel blind' by seeking outside knowledgeable opinions about their dog's quality, and also seeks out a good match for their dog--they choose a stud who has good qualities that the bitch is weak in, for example. That is likely to involve finding the match outside their own dogs--because every dog will have SOME flaws individual to that particular dog. If you're choosing a couple of puppies, even well-bred ones, with the idea of breeding on down the line, it is unlikely that you will end up with two dogs who just happen to compliment each other's conformation and temperament to the point where they are an ideal breeding pair. And "ideal" is what we should try for, with every breeding.
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post #22 of 26 (permalink) Old 02-22-2020, 04:11 PM
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Well JT17, it seems like you have some strong opinions about the sport of conformation dog shows that are based on other's opinions.

I will speak from the point of view of someone that has some experience in conformation but has not shown a long time. I think my view of the sport is useful and valid as I am not someone who grew up in the sport. We started knowing zero about it about 7 years ago and we have made some achievements in that time in spite of being nobody in the sport (we have a Best in Show winning, Top 20 doberman plus finished several champions/ grand champions).

Yes, there are politics involved in showing, but IMHO those only start having a bigger impact when you are competing at the "specials" level, for group placements, BIS wins and for national year rankings. If you are just an exhibitor in the regular classes those politics will not likely be impacting you, and certainly not in a way that will hinder the success of a good specimen.

Hiring a professional handler certainly has advantages. They know how to present your dog so that the best features are highlighted. They know how to move your dog so that the movement best represents the standard. Showing dogs is not easy and dobermans are among the hardest breeds.

Yes, you can hire that great handler to show your doberman that "always wins" (which is a fallacy). Guess what? That same handler is also showing other dobermans in the other regular classes. So you are competing with all the other dogs that your "win it all" handler is showing. Only one gets Winners Dog or Bitch. Not so simple, huh?

Let's say that you have this handler for the regular classes (which means a dog/ bitch pursuing a Championship). There is still the part of having your dog "show ready" which is your job as the owner. You need to regularly groom your dog, keep the dog in "show weight", spend time training your dog, exposing your dog to the show environment, conditioning your dog, etc. Your "show dog" will not win if all those things are not addressed. It is not as simple as just showing up and having your handler show the dog. A dog doesn't win on conformation alone - it is conformation and SHOWMANSHIP.

If it was a "popularity contest" it would be far easier than what it really is like.

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post #23 of 26 (permalink) Old 02-22-2020, 05:05 PM
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In general, if I look at a breeder, and my rescued pets have more titles than their breeding dogs, regardless of pedigree, I tend to believe that they are more interested in producing puppies to sell than they are in preserving and improving a breed. Especially if they aren't health testing, or only doing minimal testing.


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Lily Dale- A Melody Unchained ETD PKD-T PKD-N ADP-L5/CH/L1(Pr)/L2(Pr)/L1 GC GPS-EST OD-WD3
CA Speed Queen Leontine Von Washateria ETD D-CRO-Preliminary PKD-T PKD-N S-ADP-L5/CH/L1(Pr)/L2(Pr)/L1 GC GPS-EST OD-WD3
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post #24 of 26 (permalink) Old 02-23-2020, 08:35 PM
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Breeding is a gamble, for visionsake let's say it's like roulette. If I want to do agility, I look for breeders that have titled in that and are breeding for those traits, that's like puttying your chips on red/black odd/even. If I want a protection working dog, or a conformation dog..... I look for a breeder titling in that and breeding for that and that's like puttying your chips on red/black odd/even. If you are just willy nilly breeding dogs without titles or supporting a breeder like that, sure you can put your chips on a number and that number will eventually hit but it's not as likely.

It's the same with health testing. There are many BYB dogs that live to a ripe old age. There are many more that don't. I personally like to stack the odds in my favor by supporting someone who's health testing.
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post #25 of 26 (permalink) Old 02-24-2020, 12:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jt17 View Post
First of all, to all the “snipers” out there... the question was hypothetical. I asked because every time someone asks a question that has anything to do with breeding everyone is like “you shouldn’t be asking questions, what makes you think your dog can improve the breed, what titles do you have?”
I’m just saying, let’s be honest. Titled dogs can have “****” pups, and untitled dogs can have premium specimens. If the goal is to better the breed a piece of paper means nothing compared to quality pups. All I’m saying is that a dog with the highest regarded titles in all of the different types of competition will have the same puppies whether they competed or not. So it’s like saying even if you have the dog that the standard was created from, it shouldn’t be bred if it wasn’t shown... why not? The puppies will be of the same caliber as they would if that same dog was shown and won the Westminster.
And when I say titles are bought, isn’t it true that the better the handler the better your chances of winning in most cases? (Don’t deny it, you know it’s true) so it becomes a popularity contest. And yeah, some judges are crooked.
Seems to me that you really just want to argue your point with people rather than actually seek advice and learn from people but I’ll bite.... you say titles are bought because you have a better chance at winning if you hire a good handler. This is just common sense, these people are professionals of course they are going to be more successful, they do things like adjust their stride to match the dog they are showing, so the dog has the most optimal stride for their size.

If you had a super fast sports car that you wanted to enter into a race and you could either drive it yourself or hire a successful professional racer, who do you think has a better chance winning?

These photos were taken Within a few weeks of each other, same dog different handler, one is inexperienced the other is a professional, it’s easy to see the difference.

839443FB-8B17-480B-AE1A-748C9032C8C2 by Corinna Morris, on Flickr

78D028B4-FEEC-4CB1-AFCA-DD9B9EF941F8 by Corinna Morris, on Flickr
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