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post #1 of 22 (permalink) Old 01-24-2020, 07:55 AM Thread Starter
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Doberman - Medium OR Large Breed ?

So my friends - What do you classify your Doberman ? Large or Medium breed ? Reason I ask this is that when selecting dog foods - there is both listed - For example - I was looking on the Purina site and there are 2 foods sold - both with the same name - yet one is for Large and the other Medium - the difference is one had 25% protein and the other was 15 % -- BTW - it was for Adult food , I guess it depends on the level of activity that your dog does .

Ok , I'll be honest here . Mr. B has been a problem child to maintain the right weight on him - After Ali passed - he just quit doing anything , We took him out more to town , you name it . Trying to help him in his depression , But when we got home - he was back on the couch - doing nothing . We took him back to the Vets and have run every kind on test done - just to make sure he is ok , All tests came back great .

We are working with our Vet to slim him down and I hope to get him weighted today - think were close to his weight target ( 95 to 100 ) He is a heavy boned and Muscle Boy . I did talk to his breeder and asked how big his dad was , In show trim he was 95 .

One other thing - Kadin used lots and lots of energy playing - or bein chased by Ali - that is hard for a person to replace , even with more trips to town or even training , Nothing like another play mate - lol

Hope to have a new little sis for him this spring - fingers very crossed !

One other thing - I do think that the difference in the amount of protein between the 2 foods ( Med . Large ) is a player in weight management with our dogs

Doc
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post #2 of 22 (permalink) Old 01-24-2020, 08:47 AM
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Personally, I considered Bacchus a large dog (94#). I know the usual description says medium.
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post #3 of 22 (permalink) Old 01-24-2020, 08:48 AM
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I would say large. I know AKC says medium, but if you look at any weight classifications it would almost always put them in the large dog category.
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post #4 of 22 (permalink) Old 01-24-2020, 09:03 AM Thread Starter
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So VZ and 79 - then you feed Adult foods ? I'm guessing
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post #5 of 22 (permalink) Old 01-24-2020, 09:06 AM
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Yes, he's eating Purina Pro Plan Sport right now. I like to rotate foods quite a bit and will also feed him Fromm.

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post #6 of 22 (permalink) Old 01-24-2020, 09:41 AM
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I remember reading somewhere that at a certain age (4 mos?) you double that weight and it apprx. gives you what your dog will weigh when an adult. I can't remember where I read that.
Anyone know if that holds true?

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post #7 of 22 (permalink) Old 01-24-2020, 09:45 AM
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Quote:
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So VZ and 79 - then you feed Adult foods ? I'm guessing
Up until the end. Then I let him have whatever he wanted. He loved apples and cantaloupe along with Arby's Big Roast Beef Sandwiches.
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post #8 of 22 (permalink) Old 01-24-2020, 01:32 PM
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I'd go by the weight he is supposed to be, not necessarily his current weight, and feed accordingly.

You probably just need to decrease his food because his activity level is lower (and count all of those extra "training" treats as part of his calorie intake! LOL)

But I imagine you know that already. For me, figuring out the amount to feed is a daily exercise. If the dog is looking a bit chubby, I back off on the amount I feed until he's back to where I want him. I up his food if he is looking thin.

Percent protein vs the other nutrients in a diet is an important factor to get the right ratios of the various nutrients in a balanced diet, but their percentages *might* look skewed because they are using the actual amounts of each nutrient they want the dog to get to formulate their food. Fillers to bring a food up to a certain bulk to fill a dog's tummy don't necessarily add calories. Maybe??

And the foods may be formulated for different ages and activity levels like you say.

Or to meet the perceptions of the public as to what is "good" for their dog *sigh*

I mean, they do want the food to be healthy, I imagine--but they have to be able to sell it too.

Take into account the actual quantities of various nutrients when you're trying to figure out how much he should get.

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post #9 of 22 (permalink) Old 01-24-2020, 01:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cressrb View Post
I remember reading somewhere that at a certain age (4 mos?) you double that weight and it apprx. gives you what your dog will weigh when an adult. I can't remember where I read that.
Anyone know if that holds true?
I've heard something similar with children--double their height at age two to get how tall they'll be when they're grown.

And the one saying your pup should gain about 10 pounds a month for his first six months or so.

I dunno.....it might not have anymore validity than that old thing about determining the sex of your baby according to where you are carrying him while you're pregnant.

But I would think there may be some general truth in there somewhere. For the weight and height things, I mean. I find the last one very questionable LOL
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post #10 of 22 (permalink) Old 01-24-2020, 04:03 PM
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I got to talking to a breeder vet one time about weight and what constituted the difference between a 'medium' and a 'large' breed. He said that he always thought that it was more like it should have been the difference between large and giant breeds but some of it comes out of very early standards for very early breeds who had standards.

So I treat (and for the record so do my various vets) Dobermans as large breed dogs for purposes of feeding and weight.

That seems to work out better than treating them like medium dogs.

Ken, which adult foods are you finding that are listed as both medium and large breed formulas. I haven't actually gone looking myself but i've fed Purina ProPlan (various) for a long time and thought I was pretty familiar with the line.

I feed Purina ProPlan Focus--either chicken and rice or Sensitive Skin and Stomach (formerly known as salmon and rice) they make most of the ProPlan Focus line in Adult, Large breed puppy and puppy. I feed adult--even to puppies.

When you were having tests run on Mr B was one of them a full thyroid panel? If not that is probably something you might want to do. One of the common symptoms of low thyroid levels (hypothroidism) is lethargy (cold sensitivity,weight gain and hair loss are a couple of others).

Since he doesn't have a playmate these these days that probably accounts for most of the weight gain but if he's also hypothyroid it'll make it much harder (if not impossible)to get the weight off him.

Those methods of figuring out what a dog should weigh at maturity from what they weigh at different puppy ages has never worked well for me (for one thing I've heard three different ages and none of them ever worked out.

I use the Melbrod method and look at the dog frequently and add or subtract small quantities of food as needed and I start doing that from the time they are puppies. I usually also got them into the clinic (when I was working full time) at least every couple of weeks and weighed them. That sort of kept me from missing weight gain because I was seeing them daily and just didn't notice it.

I don't rotate food if a dog does well on a particular food I stick with it--I have fed Purina Pro Plan Sport--in particular to one dog who was hard to keep weight on when we were showing him--the Sport is kind of designed for high energy active dogs.

Some of my dogs (Toad for one) ate ProPlan Sensitive Skin and Stomach from the time he was weaned for all of his long life.

Bottom line, Ken, when buying and feeding I always use large breed adult and I never go by bag weight recommendations--except as a very general beginning point--beyond that I adjust it for the particular dog and it's almost always a good bit less than bag recommendations.

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post #11 of 22 (permalink) Old 01-24-2020, 04:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cressrb View Post
I remember reading somewhere that at a certain age (4 mos?) you double that weight and it apprx. gives you what your dog will weigh when an adult. I can't remember where I read that.
Anyone know if that holds true?
Well, for what it's worth, Ilka weighed about 20 pounds at four-ish months, and looked best at 48 pounds as an adult.

Leo also weighed about 20 pounds at four months, and looks best at around 55 pounds. Then again, Leo was half starved when she weighed 20 pounds, so who knows if that is quite as accurate in her case.
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post #12 of 22 (permalink) Old 01-24-2020, 04:20 PM
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Right about that method being correct. I just remembered reading it somewhere here on this forum and was to lazy to search, but only wanted to try applying it for the fun of it.
Took Bohdi to Petsmart for socialization and to pick out a toy ( I really don't spoil him ) and weigh him for free there. For a crazy reason I feel since I am feeding unconventionally that
perhaps I am missing something in his food and maybe he doesn't weigh enough or too much, or why is he hungry all the time. I like to drive myself crazy with this reasoning.
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post #13 of 22 (permalink) Old 01-24-2020, 04:59 PM
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I think keeping dogs lean is one of the most important things you can do, and it's backed by the 14 year research study Purina did - lean dogs lived 2 years longer: Purina Life Span Study

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post #14 of 22 (permalink) Old 01-24-2020, 05:49 PM
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Wait a minute, Bonnie? You are feeding unconventially? Really?

Now I have to ask what and how are you feeding?

For the record, since I probably hold the record for most male puppies in the last 60 years--up to the point where you have just started showing them and they are just starting win and they become so full of testostone and don't want to eat but want to check out bitches--male puppies will usually eat anything and as much of anything as you want to feed them and gain weight on it.

(I realized that was the case when I unpacked something in the kitchen and it was protected with a whole bunch of shredded paper, which I spilled half of on the floor and while I was trying to sweep it up the puppy at that time was sucking it up as fast as he could and looking for more after we got all of it off the floor. And he'd just had dinner!)

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post #15 of 22 (permalink) Old 01-25-2020, 03:40 AM
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The number on the scale doesn’t matter, look at body composition when deciding if your dog is a good weight. When choosing food I treat them as a large breed, protein matters a lot when they are pups but not necessarily when they are adults, I highly active dog would need more protein, but don’t forget to look at calorie content too. Also, I feel like 15% protein seems low. Sully gets chunky easily, especially In the winter, when I notice he’s chubbed up a bit I reduce him 1/4 cup each meal and keep an eye on the amount of treatshe gets, I’ll trade out his treats for something healthy...fruits and veggies. I even make my own sweet potato chips. I’ve also heard of people giving green beans with meals, to help them feel fuller.

For reference,

Sully 9 years old, 28.25 inches, 95 ish pounds but should be about 88
Fromm pork and peas, 29% protein 392 calorie per cup 3.5 cups of food per day (trying to get him to lose a few, normally 4 cups per day)

Rizzo 2 years old, 24 inches 70 pounds which is a good weight for her
Fromm duck a la veg, 24% protein 387 calories per cup 4 cups per day
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post #16 of 22 (permalink) Old 01-25-2020, 07:55 AM
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Cool

Hoss is a big boy......he averages 108 pounds.
Hoss is pretty tall.
My regular vet wants Hoss at 95 pounds.
This past spring Hoss had his first cardio. That doc said Hoss weight was fine.
This cardio doc determines appropriate weight by being able to get his fingers between rib bones.
If hard to do dog is to fat.....if he can easily get in between the ribs with little effort dog is fine.
So thats how I check on him now.............
Large breed is my vote.
Being lean...count your blessing on that one.
Thyroid work up is a good idea to be on the safe side if he’s looking not right.

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post #17 of 22 (permalink) Old 01-25-2020, 09:34 AM Thread Starter
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Aunt Bug - I went back to the Purina site and I'll be dang if I can find what I was looking for as to Med. and Large - Who knows - Maybe I dreamed it

Mr. B has had full blood work us and the Thyroid tests - all sent off , they all came back A-OK .

Now some history on him , When we first got him got him - I did the switch to Fromm and then the breeder advised a food called Open Farm - this is where he started to add on some weight - I had adjusted as we went - he was at the lowest amount for a dog coming in around 90 to 95 . The wife and I had several talks on what to feed him , all our other dogs had been feed some kind of Purina , so we put him on Pro Plan Focus - S & S Salmon , To the wife and I , he still looked very good and he carried his weight very well .

Now have to back track some , We had taken Kadin to the vet for his shots , sometimes we would just stop in and visit , sometimes he went with us to take Ali in . He has 2 vets that see him - I asked one Vet what he thought about his weight - I felt it he was too big for a Doberman , The Vet said oh Ken - he looks great , don't do anything . Then when we were in - the I asked the other Vet the same question - She looked at him and then me and said , well , he does look a little big and asked what I feed and how much - I told her , the amount of S&S was 3 1/2 cups a day - or about 1 & 3/4 cups per feeding , she then said Ken - your at the very bottom of the amount feed - I said I know .

Fast forward to , Nov. 2019 , The first Vet that said he looks great was doing the check up and when we were done - said , I think he's a little over weight , ( he weighed the same as when he said he looked great ) So go figure that one out , lol We talked about it and decided to put him on Hills R/D for a few months and see what happens . He has lost 4 pounds the last time we weighed him , I was going to weigh him yesterday , but the weather was bad and didn't make the trip , raining and it is now snowing here this morning , so we wait till next week and weigh him . I will guess he has lost more weigh and close to the high 90's .

So my friends - he is my problem ! What to put him on when we take him off the R/D ???? Back to the Pro Plan S & S and see what happens OR use the Purina Pro Plan Adult weight management . I have read that dogs all age different -as to Adult and we know that things change as with us .

Aunt Bug - you are right , Ali missing has changed everything around here , and him laying around is not helping matters + winter time is so hard to keep them fit - it just may be a combo of things adding up .

I will also admit that I just worry so much about my ( our ) Doberson - like Cressrb said - lol

I forgot - I did call Purina and talked to them about what to feed him - they said no question - use the weigh management ( Kadin ) will be 5 in May .

Mr. B is the first and only Doberman we have had to really watch his weight - all the girls were spot on with there weight . Plus Kadin gets almost zero treats - Nothing but a Milk Bone once in a blue moon , lol

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post #18 of 22 (permalink) Old 01-25-2020, 01:12 PM
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Once he gets his new sister it will be.....game on.r
He will burn it off comes spring.
Your a great dober dad.
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Hoss
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post #19 of 22 (permalink) Old 01-27-2020, 06:25 PM
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Overweight dogs are the topic du jour, I guess! Patricia McConnell wrote a blog post about it yesterday. It's interesting to me that it's so hard for vets to talk about it with clients. Especially since we control what our animals eat, and that it's one of the easiest things you can do for longer life. Maybe it's because we show them love by feeding them?

https://www.patriciamcconnell.com/th...WY_68Xbtdn4-54
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& Sirai's Golden Masquerade ORT NW1 L1C L1V L1E L1I L2C L2I NW2 RATI SOG WAC
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post #20 of 22 (permalink) Old 01-27-2020, 07:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cressrb View Post
I remember reading somewhere that at a certain age (4 mos?) you double that weight and it apprx. gives you what your dog will weigh when an adult. I can't remember where I read that.
Anyone know if that holds true?
4 month weight rule...didn't know that, Thks.

Here is an adult one...measure kids height @ 2 y/o....height will double, at adult.

Case in point.
- when our son turned 2, he was very close to 3 feet tall
- once he stopped growing, in his later teen years...he measured 1/2" short of 6 ft. tall
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post #21 of 22 (permalink) Old 01-27-2020, 07:41 PM
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Just throwing this out here:
If he's looking fat now vs good weight last time he saw the vet and yet still weighed the same both times--depending on how long it has been--
He may have lost some muscle mass and has more of his weight in fat. (because of his lower activity level) or
He could just be getting older, with the same result.

I'm assuming what you're calling overweight is not just a rounder tummy/abdomen (as opposed to weight on his ribs)--sometimes people call a big round tummy fat, but a big round tummy with no fat on the ribs can have lots of causes that aren't necessarily obesity. A vet should be able to pick up on that though.
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Last edited by melbrod; 01-28-2020 at 12:52 AM.
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post #22 of 22 (permalink) Old 01-30-2020, 03:59 AM
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I also have difficulty getting adequate exercise for my boy but I will pass on an easy-for-me method. He loves chasing RC cars and will do it until the batteries are dead. Even then he will wrestle the vehicle all around the parking lot (the bigger ones, that is). I have gone through a lot of them and either go with very small and fast or bigger and sturdier. I am fighting the impulse to go for the high end hobby quality (hundreds of dollars) and sticking with toy quality for now.

His ears perk up whenever he starts to hear that distinctive sound.
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