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vargab81 12-03-2019 01:15 PM

Avoiding the famous sires - Cactus Cash and Lex Luthor
 
Other day I was studying pedigrees of the current stars of the Doberman show world in US and looks like most of them either goes back to Cactus Cash or Lex Luthor. Only found one Gch Element's Rock Star (Ozzy)who do not carry these lines. Do you know other such dogs who are successful but still do not have these famous sires behind them.

Dobequest:Dog Profile Page

dobebug 12-03-2019 03:20 PM

Vargab81

I just went back to Dobequest to take a look at GChElement's Rock Star because I was pretty sure that while I don't think that Lex Luthor appears in his pedigree, Cactus Cash is it many times. Anyplace you see Kaywood--in at least one case you have to go back about 5 generations but Cactus Cash is a fair important part of his pedigree in three out of four lines.

Is the some particular reason you want to avoid either of those sires?

I know that Michelle Santana (Foxfire) avoided Cactus Cash and his grandsire for many years. My 14 year old dog who I lost just after Thanksgiving probably had as little Cactus Cash as you'd be likely to find--in a 4 generation pedigree Cactus Cash is in the third generation on the sire's side and 4th generation on the dam's side.

And Lex Luthor doesn't appear in any of Michelle's pedigrees until she bred to a Lex son.

I don't know I remember when people were trying to avoid some very popular sires from 20 or more years ago. I'm not a fan of rushing to breed to the popular sire of the day but sometimes that dog (whoever it might be) is sometimes the best choice for a particular bitch.

It's not going to be long before Cactus Cash or Lex aren't going to appear in pedigrees simply because of when they were born--they'll be off the pedigree of the common 3 or 4 generation pedigree so you'll really need to do a lot of detective work to avoid those particular dogs.

Good luck...

dobebug

MeadowCat 12-03-2019 03:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by vargab81 (Post 4100973)
Other day I was studying pedigrees of the current stars of the Doberman show world in US and looks like most of them either goes back to Cactus Cash or Lex Luthor. Only found one Gch Element's Rock Star (Ozzy)who do not carry these lines. Do you know other such dogs who are successful but still do not have these famous sires behind them.

Dobequest:Dog Profile Page

You have to remember when you study pedigrees that you can't just look at the pedigree in front of you on Dobequest, because you're looking only at the first several generations, and in younger dogs, that may not be that far back (in years). Cactus Cash is the sire of Kaywood's Highly Classified, who is in Ozzy's pedigree, just one generation beyond what is pictured on Dobequest. If you click on her, you can view her pedigree (or any of the other dogs in the pedigree, too).

With some of the "big sires" it's tough to find dogs without them in the pedigree. Some people try to just minimize how many times they appear, if there's a reason you don't like them.

steris56 12-03-2019 03:54 PM

N00b question but, is there a particular reason to avoid these lines?

(I was not keen on him being in any pedigrees I was looking into simply because he was in Penelope's but it's more my deep fear of another early cancer.)

MeadowCat 12-03-2019 04:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by steris56 (Post 4101013)
N00b question but, is there a particular reason to avoid these lines?

(I was not keen on him being in any pedigrees I was looking into simply because he was in Penelope's but it's more my deep fear of another early cancer.)

My question to you would be, why would you identify him as the cause of the cancer?

As in humans, I would be incredibly reluctant to attribute any one "thing" as the cause of cancer. Even saying "cancer" is kind of a misnomer - there are many types of cancers - it's not one disease, it's many diseases. Osteosarcoma is one cancer. Hemangiosarcoma is another cancer. They are vastly different, don't respond in the same way to the same treatments. As someone who has had cancer (thyroid) that was highly treatable, and who has lost a sibling to a very aggressive cancer...they were incredibly different diseases. They weren't genetic, we didn't both get cancer because we were related, and it's unlikely we both got cancer due to the same environment, either. However, that said....factors for cancer all include things like diet, environment, genetics...even just simply a bad roll of the dice. It's so incredibly complex. Scientists studying humans know some things, but it's a big, complicated puzzle, and each cancer is different. Some certainly are genetic (certain breast cancers, for example), some definitely aren't. So, in dogs....it's complicated. Seeing a sire that is "popular" in a lot of pedigrees doesn't necessarily lead to the conclusion that a dog produces cancer, certainly not in the way that seeing a dog in pedigrees can lend itself to the idea that a dog might contribute to DCM. And even in the case of DCM, one has to remember that dogs have both sires and dams....

Just food for thought.

That doesn't mean I don't personally prefer to avoid a lot of "popular" sires, and strive for diversity where I can (but sometimes it's hard to avoid the older ones farther back).

Gretchen_Red 12-03-2019 04:14 PM

It's nearly, if not impossible to avoid famous sires. What I try to look for is who they were bred too. Was it something with longevity?

For instance, the male that I want to breed Kya to has a dog that died from DCM about 4 generations back. This doesn't freak me out because I also know that that dog was bred to a bitch that lived to be 10 and there's TONS of longevity everywhere else in the lines.

It's unfortunate to say but you have to take the good with the bad.

steris56 12-03-2019 04:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MeadowCat (Post 4101015)
My question to you would be, why would you identify him as the cause of the cancer?

As in humans, I would be incredibly reluctant to attribute any one "thing" as the cause of cancer. Even saying "cancer" is kind of a misnomer - there are many types of cancers - it's not one disease, it's many diseases. Osteosarcoma is one cancer. Hemangiosarcoma is another cancer. They are vastly different, don't respond in the same way to the same treatments. As someone who has had cancer (thyroid) that was highly treatable, and who has lost a sibling to a very aggressive cancer...they were incredibly different diseases. They weren't genetic, we didn't both get cancer because we were related, and it's unlikely we both got cancer due to the same environment, either. However, that said....factors for cancer all include things like diet, environment, genetics...even just simply a bad roll of the dice. It's so incredibly complex. Scientists studying humans know some things, but it's a big, complicated puzzle, and each cancer is different. Some certainly are genetic (certain breast cancers, for example), some definitely aren't. So, in dogs....it's complicated. Seeing a sire that is "popular" in a lot of pedigrees doesn't necessarily lead to the conclusion that a dog produces cancer, certainly not in the way that seeing a dog in pedigrees can lend itself to the idea that a dog might contribute to DCM. And even in the case of DCM, one has to remember that dogs have both sires and dams....

Just food for thought.

That doesn't mean I don't personally prefer to avoid a lot of "popular" sires, and strive for diversity where I can (but sometimes it's hard to avoid the older ones farther back).

No, I get you! Right in the middle of studying MSK and dermatologic cancers for humans.
It's my kneejerk response to the entire OSA affair, honestly. There are, indeed, a myriad of random and untimely mutations that get the neoplasm ball rolling.

I wasn't sure if I was just missing something obvious since he passed from sepsis and not any hereditary issue. I recall one line I was looking into (not Cambria's) had consistent hepatic troubles associated with a sire.

::edit:: I was thinking of Repo Man.

MeadowCat 12-03-2019 05:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by steris56 (Post 4101023)
No, I get you! Right in the middle of studying MSK and dermatologic cancers for humans.
It's my kneejerk response to the entire OSA affair, honestly. There are, indeed, a myriad of random and untimely mutations that get the neoplasm ball rolling.

I wasn't sure if I was just missing something obvious since he passed from sepsis and not any hereditary issue. I recall one line I was looking into (not Cambria's) had consistent hepatic troubles associated with a sire.

::edit:: I was thinking of Repo Man.

I guess the way I go into it is...I look for a breeder who shares the same philosophy and outlook as I do (or, as closely as I can get). If they have the same outlook on breeding and goals as I do, it's likely that their breeding goals are going to align with what I'm looking for in a puppy. So I don't necessarily look for a pedigree when I'm searching so much as I look for someone that's going to be the type of breeder I want. That doesn't mean I wouldn't look at the individual puppy's pedigree, but it's likely that a breeder who is breeding the types of dogs I want is going to be breeding the types of pedigrees I like, making the types of decisions I respect. I don't think there are really any "perfect" pedigrees out there, but when you find someone that aligns with what you like, you generally respect the compromises they make.

Kansadobe 12-03-2019 06:12 PM

We do not have Cactus Cash in any of our current dogs. We did breed to one of his sons once, but we have nothing from that br
eeding. You also have to remember that the breed did not start with him. He goes back to many other popular sires such as Cryptonite and Windwalker befoer him. They can be found through many other channels than Cactus Cash.

On the other hand, we have used Lex Luthor 4 times over the years including having an exceptional current son of his that is only 9 months old (See link below). Some uninformed people like to speak of health issues in his line, but we have had several that have lived into their teens.

Based on current genetics, we are big believers in the UC Davis VGL and Betterbred genetic diversity testing. It will tell you more about the actual genetic diversity (internal inbreeding and similarity to the rest of the breed) of your dog or a mating pair than any pedigree ever will.

https://photos.app.goo.gl/QjURvWkEXFo1d5qz6

Artemis 12-03-2019 06:26 PM

I would think it's less about wanting avoid those particular dogs/lines and more about the fact that if you have very prolific and influential sires it becomes harder to outcross. Another thing (though these males are now long dead) is when everyone rushes to a particular sire repeatedly, and issues DO turn up, it's a lot harder to go back and actively avoid them if need be.

It took like a handful of sires to wipe out the diversity from most of the European show gene pool, and good luck finding show bred dogs that aren't also linebred on at least one or two of these sires (who either died suddenly or of confirmed cardio).

Although I don't think a sire being popular should be the sole reason to not use him.

steris56 12-03-2019 07:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kansadobe (Post 4101043)
We do not have Cactus Cash in any of our current dogs. We did breed to one of his sons once, but we have nothing from that br
eeding. You also have to remember that the breed did not start with him. He goes back to many other popular sires such as Cryptonite and Windwalker befoer him. They can be found through many other channels than Cactus Cash.

On the other hand, we have used Lex Luthor 4 times over the years including having an exceptional current son of his that is only 9 months old (See link below). Some uninformed people like to speak of health issues in his line, but we have had several that have lived into their teens.

Based on current genetics, we are big believers in the UC Davis VGL and Betterbred genetic diversity testing. It will tell you more about the actual genetic diversity (internal inbreeding and similarity to the rest of the breed) of your dog or a mating pair than any pedigree ever will.

https://photos.app.goo.gl/QjURvWkEXFo1d5qz6

A) Handsome!

B) Thanks for this. It's easy to forget there are orgs offering diversity services. The genetic diversity testing is so compelling and, I agree, much more sound than reading the tea leaves of pedigrees and searching for dogs on a forum. Time and again, it really just seems like getting out there and using your own sound judgement is what matters (as Meadowcat said).

C) So much to learn.

Coco Loco 12-03-2019 08:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kansadobe (Post 4101043)
We do not have Cactus Cash in any of our current dogs. We did breed to one of his sons once, but we have nothing from that br
eeding. You also have to remember that the breed did not start with him. He goes back to many other popular sires such as Cryptonite and Windwalker befoer him. They can be found through many other channels than Cactus Cash.

On the other hand, we have used Lex Luthor 4 times over the years including having an exceptional current son of his that is only 9 months old (See link below). Some uninformed people like to speak of health issues in his line, but we have had several that have lived into their teens.

Based on current genetics, we are big believers in the UC Davis VGL and Betterbred genetic diversity testing. It will tell you more about the actual genetic diversity (internal inbreeding and similarity to the rest of the breed) of your dog or a mating pair than any pedigree ever will.

https://photos.app.goo.gl/QjURvWkEXFo1d5qz6

Kansas what a stunning boy!! Absolutely beautiful.


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