Once a BYB, always a BYB? - Doberman Forum : Doberman Breed Dog Forums
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post #1 of 13 (permalink) Old 11-12-2019, 12:16 PM Thread Starter
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Once a BYB, always a BYB?

I'm just curious, for conversation sake, to see everyone's opinions on whether or not a breeder can salvage themselves from being considered a BYB.

Suppose at the beginning of their breeding program, they didn't follow all of the standards to prevent them from being considered a back yard breeder. Like using the resident stud male, not showing their dogs, breeding bitches more than twice. Not doing echos, etc.

What if many years later, they actually had worked hard to pull themselves up from those standards? Where they now show, and compete with their dogs. Title their bitches before breeding. They limit litters to two times only, they do all of the required health testing (echo's/holters) etc, and try to make those testing also affordable/available to the offspring's owners? Use titled stud dogs that are not from within the house, and overall, show their loyalty to helping this breed, instead of just profiting from it?


Can the BYB title disappear? If so, at what point? If not, why?


What would you want to see from someone who may have been dubbed a BYB, and is looking to overcome it?

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post #2 of 13 (permalink) Old 11-12-2019, 01:45 PM
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Just as a once reputable breeder can fall from grace, I believe BYBs can change and evolve to the point where they are no longer a BYB.

There are BYBs who are such because of ignorance. Usually with some education and some guidance these can do better. As long as someone has a desire to improve, learn and clean up their act, I don't see why they should be considered a BYB for ever.

I know of one such breeder who started off with Z-factored dogs (no albinos, but all WZ) because she didn't know any better. Well, she got educated, neutered and spayed all the Z-factored dogs she had, placed them in pet homes then went back to get new foundation stock to start from scratch. Her 'youngest' Z-factored dog is 9 years old currently so her last BYB litter was almost a decade ago.
She's now a member in good standing with the DPCA, does extensive health testing, and actively works and titles her dogs in protection sports and obedience venues. She has several of her puppies doing performance as well as work in their homes, and is actively trying to improve type and structure of her already strong working dogs. I'd recommend her without hesitation to someone looking for a powerful sport/work or performance prospect.

Now the question as to "when" does someone lose the BYB label will depend entirely on who you're asking, and how they're going about it. The main thing for me is consistency. I need to see it done over multiple years and see it done ideally on a couple of litters (depending on how often they breed). Because if they health test the parents once do 4 litters with that same pairing but then don't test the resulting offspring because "the parents were tested" then they're still a BYB.

Or if they're doing it once just to better market themselves and attract buyers, then they may no longer be a run of the mill BYB but certainly a Greeder. Same if they only partially health test.
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post #3 of 13 (permalink) Old 11-12-2019, 03:18 PM
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I personally have never seen it or heard of it happening. The money is just too tempting as a BYB. I spoke to my mentor about this once and in her 40 years she's never seen it happen. Sure they MIGHT start showing and MAYBE finish a few dogs but it's never the same percentages of how often they're breeding. They always have excuses for their suspicious actions. They MIGHT do some health testing but rarely ALL health testing.
The biggest thing that I have noticed with people that I CONSIDER BYBs (or glorified BYBs) is the way the TREAT their dogs is different. They seem to be more expendable commodities than dogs. This one time I remember sharing an RV with this woman. In the morning she would take out the dog that was her favorite (the winning one of course), THEN take out the dog that's been having stomach and diarrhea issues and THEN take out the puppy! She would show them and then be gone ALL DAY until 10 or 11 at night. Leaving us to make sure to walk her dogs and that they had water. Towards the end of the show weekend and I went to buy ALL of the dogs a nice treat (not just mine) and another woman said "no she doesn't believe in giving her dogs treats outside of the ring". Why? Because they're a commodity. I'm sure others do the same I'm not bashing that one thing but it's ALL of these things (plus some that I'll leave out).

Tigers don't change their stripes.
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post #4 of 13 (permalink) Old 11-12-2019, 03:43 PM
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You probably have to distinguish the person who has a "the dog is a commodity" attitude vs "I don't know any better" when you're trying to decide whether the person can establish themselves as credible.

And of course, being open to suggestions and advice, and eager to learn would be something I'd look for in a person trying to climb out of BYB status, because (rather obviously, I guess) a person won't be able to get out of the ignorant stage unless they are willing to change.

Last edited by melbrod; 11-12-2019 at 03:45 PM.
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post #5 of 13 (permalink) Old 11-12-2019, 03:53 PM
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I will try to tackle this question from my point of view. It is difficult to know where to start. I will use an example from a different breed. A couple came to me wanting a pet only quality dog.
I talked to them at length and finally told them I would sell them a male on limited reg. that would require neutering. That was the end of their inquiry. After a while you develop a sixth sense
about people and I had that about them. They ended up importing a dog and bitch from EU. This impresses many people. They started showing. First hiring a handler. They joined the club.
They got enough dogs of their own acquired that they started stacking the ring at small shows and gaining championships that way. Now they show their own and all the family and children
are involved. They got a web site. The photos are stunning and the wins look impressive. I was standing ring side waiting to go in a different ring when this breed was being shown, so curious I watched the whole thing. ALL their own dogs and majors, too.
I was seeing shy temperments with a breed noted for boldness and confidence. I was seeing awful toplines and bad, bad movers so much so that I audibly said, 'Oh no, that is so sad' when I
intended to only think it to myself. Only the person standing next to me heard me, thankfully. These people have never built a recognizable line of their own. They keep importing. If it works
fine, if not get rid of the dog, import more, breed more. They are considered reputable breeders - to some. Especially to those looking online.

"Lots of people talk to animals...Not very many listen, though...That's the problem. " ~ The Tao of Pooh
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post #6 of 13 (permalink) Old 11-12-2019, 03:54 PM
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I have yet to see it. BYBs seem to know everything and their dogs are "better/healthier/etc."
What's certainly more common is BYBs using a decent stud dog in their capitalistic lines (stud dog owner didn't know any better) or buying a bitch from a reputable breeder who didn't do enough due diligence, then they breed her. All the health testing in the world doesn't make someone reputable IMO, they have to start "fresh" with the right outlook and the right motive- which should be preserving and protecting the purebred doberman pinscher. That is REALLY unlikely.
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post #7 of 13 (permalink) Old 11-12-2019, 04:00 PM
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I got distracted by a ph. call and didn't quite finish, lol. So, I'm back. Also these people let anyone use their stud dog, no questions asked. Puppies are sold with open reg. A sale is all
that matters. Most people would not consider them a BYB. They are.

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post #8 of 13 (permalink) Old 11-12-2019, 10:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Artemis View Post
I know of one such breeder who started off with Z-factored dogs (no albinos, but all WZ) because she didn't know any better.
I *think* I know who you are talking about, and I am going to strongly disagree that she didn't know any better. There used to a board a long time ago where some of us veterans used to argue with the albino breeders and try to do some educating, and the stupid was deep in that one. And I sure as Hell don't trust her to this day.
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post #9 of 13 (permalink) Old 11-13-2019, 08:16 AM
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I may have no business replying to this tread as I'm not a breeder but just a opinion on this subject , But after giving it some thoughts - why not ? I have to go back first to old times , Like John Mellencamp said : The bad thing about talking about old times - is that your old .

Back in the 70's or so - there was byb's everywhere - This came from the TV show Magnum PI - You have to admit - Zeus and Apollo was impressive and everybody wanted one - That is where the problem started - along with there was no internet to do any research like we can do in todays world - not that everything is right on here - but smart people can for the most part figure them out , good info from bad . I really think that is one reason for some of todays health problems associated with this breed - cross breeding - no testing - you name it - these byb's were in it for the bucks !

That being said - now to Chesa's question - I say it is a one on one decision - I don't think you can paint with a broad brush on this question . I think that so back in the day just off on the wrong foot - but my real question is that byb's to me are all in to there breeding programs for the money and they can talk the big talk - but that's it - there dogs are what they are . Look at the money that the top of the line breeders use to get to where they are - It's not to make money - OK a pretty good Doberman will run you 2,500 to 3,500 - but then you add in the ear crop ,tail , shots - food - time - travel times to the vets - what every and what is really left in dollars and cents ? The good - great breeders to it for the love of the breed and personal satisfaction - Like winning Westminster - OR have breed a Grand Champion - not once - but multiple times - there hard work is there pay - I bet if you asked some of the breeders on this site - what is your reward to breeding this breed - My guess is that smile they get from the Judge pointing there dog to the top spot .

I know of a Breeder here in Indiana - That fits the byb to a T !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Many years ago - I had read on this breeder and thought these are really good people , matter of fact we drove over to visit them and check them out - They impressed me and there dogs where pretty good dogs - now remember - this was before internet and I will admit -was a dumbazz on a few things - there were just no Doberman breeders in our area . Long story short - I put down a down payment for a up and coming breeding - they called and said the bitch lost al the pups - I said send me back my down payment as I had just got some great info on them and wanted no dog from them - they never sent back my payment - but did I put out the word on them POS people .

Fast forward to a few months ago - Mr. B and I was at the Vets office and In came a Mom and her daughter with a brand new Doberman female ! Dang it was so cute ! They were So proud of her - it was also there very first Doberman - The Vet tech told them - you have any questions - there is a guy that can help you - lol There main questions were on what to expect down the road - we had a great talk , but I had one burning question ! WHERE did they get it ! And when they told me - I about crapped - it was from the breeder I had just wrote about here - No ear crops ( that is what they were at the Vets office for ) no shots - dewclaws - nothing - well the tail was done . I now for a fact they don't do any health testing - They have NOT changed ! Not one bit ! They had some big time personal issues many , many , many years ago and this was a way to bring in income - I do believe they love there dogs - But are doing no favors to this breed , really they are hurting it .

So after all this running around the barn lot - I find it hard to believe that a byb can change - they just don't have the financing , knowledge or the motivation , to clean up there act .
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post #10 of 13 (permalink) Old 11-13-2019, 10:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MaryAndDobes View Post
I *think* I know who you are talking about, and I am going to strongly disagree that she didn't know any better. There used to a board a long time ago where some of us veterans used to argue with the albino breeders and try to do some educating, and the stupid was deep in that one. And I sure as Hell don't trust her to this day.
Amen to this! And in my personal opinion she is still doing some borderline shady stuff with more excuses than a pregnant nun for doing them.
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post #11 of 13 (permalink) Old 11-13-2019, 10:35 AM
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excuses than a pregnant nun

ROTFLOL - There is always some to be learned on this site !

Thanks G-Red for my laugh for the day
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post #12 of 13 (permalink) Old 11-13-2019, 11:26 AM
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I think that is is *possible* to go from a BYB breeder to a reputable breeder, but not probable. Having one BYB litter when you are new to the breed and REALLY don't know any better is one thing, but having multiple litters over a period of years and THEN deciding to become reputable will leave a level of suspicion in the people who watched them ignore advice for years that probably will never disappear . I also think it is very possible for a reputable breeder to become a BYBER for all intents and purposes..... and have seen that happen as well. I don't expect any breeder to be perfect, but do expect a certain level of standards. I will also say that just because someone breeds more than once or twice a year or breeds a bitch more than twice, that does not make them a bad breeder. Every breeder has to be looked at individually.
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post #13 of 13 (permalink) Old 11-14-2019, 03:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MaryAndDobes View Post
I *think* I know who you are talking about, and I am going to strongly disagree that she didn't know any better. There used to a board a long time ago where some of us veterans used to argue with the albino breeders and try to do some educating, and the stupid was deep in that one. And I sure as Hell don't trust her to this day.
She didn't have any albinos so I am doubtful this is the same person. None of her dogs even carried the gene, they were just WZ reg, and like I said she completely culled them and started over from scratch with good stock. She titles her dogs in high level protection sport venues noawadays and she does health test in full (echo-holter full genetic panel, hips, elbows, thyroid) breeds on average maybe 1-2 times a year if that.

ETA: to be clear I know of another ex-albino breeder whose dogs I wouldn't touch with a 30 ft flagpole, even though she brags about health testing (Sorry, but only doing Embark doesn't count) and shows UKC because "She doesn't want to deal with AKC/CKC politics" maybe this is who y'all are thinking of?

ETA2: I agree with Mary Jo - about the 'possible but not probable' statement. I think opposite happens way more often. (Someone starting out reputable and going downhill).

Last edited by Artemis; 11-14-2019 at 03:26 PM.
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