"A Head that Stands the test of Time" - Doberman Forum : Doberman Breed Dog Forums
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post #1 of 21 (permalink) Old 10-17-2019, 03:17 PM Thread Starter
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"A Head that Stands the test of Time"

Beautiful vintage 1955 model.
Damasyn's The Waltzing Raven


I am absolutely smitten! The title is what a commenter said on the photo and I thought it was very well said.
I can hardly find fault. Maybe could use a tad more underjaw but I suspect it is more prominent than shown here because the skin at the throat latch hides the jawline.
I also like the crop, even if it's a bit too short for my liking it is functional yet still elegant.

Do you have any favourite vintage dobes or images from an era past?
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post #2 of 21 (permalink) Old 10-17-2019, 03:20 PM
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Beautiful! Glad you shared.
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post #3 of 21 (permalink) Old 10-17-2019, 04:19 PM
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That's the head we all love!
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post #4 of 21 (permalink) Old 10-17-2019, 04:53 PM
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Love it! Thanks for sharing!
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post #5 of 21 (permalink) Old 10-17-2019, 09:10 PM
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Her choke collar is on backward. Did you notice. Yeah, I am being silly. Like, who cares with a head like that.
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post #6 of 21 (permalink) Old 10-17-2019, 10:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cressrb View Post
Her choke collar is on backward. Did you notice. Yeah, I am being silly. Like, who cares with a head like that.
The photo is probably reversed.


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post #7 of 21 (permalink) Old 10-17-2019, 11:07 PM
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Maybe the dog is typically walked on the person's right side? Then it would be OK as shown.
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post #8 of 21 (permalink) Old 10-18-2019, 10:56 AM
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Somewhere around (in one or maybe both of the editions of "The New Doberman Pinscher" by Joanna Walker) there is a picture of Ch Damasyn the Waltzing Brook (a litter sister I believe) who was a foundation bitch for the Marks-Tey line. She was another bitch with a beautiful head and was behind (great granddam maybe) of Ch Marks-Tey Shay--who is often shown as having an ideal bitch head.

One of the things I've always liked a lot about all of those bitches is that they have correct stops--the standard says "...top of skull flat, turning with slight stop to bridge of muzzle..." An awful lot Dobes have stops so deep that they approach those of of Danes--not at all correct for Dobermans.

And about underjaw--that's another thing that gets mis-identified a lot. A whole lot of Dobes (now and in the past don't have proper chins. They have enough underjaw but when lacking in chin it makes them look like Andy Gumps in profile.

OK, that's enough from me--the eternal head hunter.

By the way--I think Rosemary is right, I think the picture is reversed. Pictures taken back then were done on plates and a lot of them (including some of my first dog) got reversed when reproduced.

dobebug
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post #9 of 21 (permalink) Old 10-18-2019, 11:58 AM
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I don't know about the being reversed theory.....
Bug, you said, 'that enough from me' and I say no it is not. Please keep going with all the info you have stored in your head.
I am a newby to Dobermans, but not the dog scene, and I am seeing alot of heads as you just described that lean toward a
Great Dane head. A little coarser muzzle and looser flews and more pronounced stop. It bothers me.
I love the clean look represented above. I don't mind the shorter crop either.
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post #10 of 21 (permalink) Old 10-18-2019, 12:11 PM
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post #11 of 21 (permalink) Old 10-18-2019, 01:19 PM
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Hi Cressrb,

There really are a lot of bad heads around--round topskulls, stops too deep--another thing standard says about heads is "Long and dry..." And while heads tend to be long enough they are not "dry"--which means that skin is tight and dogs don't have wet mouths--floppy flews. There are also several lines who tend to produce dogs who are generally nice but have very atypical heads--short muzzles, deep stops, floppy lips etc.

Over the years I've watched Dobes change--more for the better but our American tendency (and not just with dogs) seems to if a little is good extreme is better, so I watched the poorer fronts get better--fewer bench front lacking forechest to the over endowed Mae West fronts and rear ends that tended to be straight in stifle go to the rears that get described as being out in the next county behind.

And while all these changes were going on I can't tell you how often the response to someone (like me) complaining that heads were getting worse and worse--was that you could get good heads in one generation.

Well, maybe you can (but I don't actually believe that's true) but I KNOW you can't improve heads when you don't have any good heads left. I think that the South American breedings were what salvaged heads in the US--but that's just a personal opinion.

Always interesting to watch the changes as they are happening.

dobebug
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post #12 of 21 (permalink) Old 10-18-2019, 03:15 PM
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Jezebel head shot by Mary Jo Ansel, on Flickr

This is my Jezebel's head. She was never shown due to missing teeth, but her head is IMHO, beautiful! As was her mothers head, Tatum. Tatum was my Harvard's litter sister. She never finished for other reasons - but her head was spectacular.
My Harvard's head is decent and very masculine, but lacks enough length of muzzle. I do like to know I am looking at a boy when I look at their head .... and not have to check the plumbing to tell.

Some of my favorite heads are the Cha-Rish heads. Harvard did not get it.
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post #13 of 21 (permalink) Old 10-18-2019, 04:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Artemis View Post
Beautiful vintage 1955 model.
Damasyn's The Waltzing Raven


...


Great vintage pic, Artemis!




Today's 2019 Millennial Dobe- Spock The Slobering Slurper
(Thankfully, he doesn't have any piercings....)

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Poke Everything.
It's New? Bark At It.
Moves? Chase It.
Doesn't Move? Smell It.
Liquid? Spill and Dribble It.
Treat or Food? Wolf It Down.
Not Food? Chew It Slowly, Be Quiet & Hide From Human.
A Toy? Shred & Destroy It.
Stuffed? De-Stuff It.
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post #14 of 21 (permalink) Old 10-19-2019, 10:05 PM Thread Starter
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Spocksdad, I'm glad I'm not the only one to have "leaky dobe" problems

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Originally Posted by Fitzmar Dobermans View Post
Lovely head indeed! Definitely better than many of the ones I'm seeing lately, or at least that's the way I feel.

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Originally Posted by dobebug View Post
Hi Cressrb,

There really are a lot of bad heads around--round topskulls, stops too deep--another thing standard says about heads is "Long and dry..." And while heads tend to be long enough they are not "dry"--which means that skin is tight and dogs don't have wet mouths--floppy flews. There are also several lines who tend to produce dogs who are generally nice but have very atypical heads--short muzzles, deep stops, floppy lips etc.

Well, maybe you can (but I don't actually believe that's true) but I KNOW you can't improve heads when you don't have any good heads left. I think that the South American breedings were what salvaged heads in the US--but that's just a personal opinion.

Always interesting to watch the changes as they are happening.

dobebug
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Originally Posted by dobebug View Post
One of the things I've always liked a lot about all of those bitches is that they have correct stops--the standard says "...top of skull flat, turning with slight stop to bridge of muzzle..." An awful lot Dobes have stops so deep that they approach those of of Danes--not at all correct for Dobermans.

And about underjaw--that's another thing that gets mis-identified a lot. A whole lot of Dobes (now and in the past don't have proper chins. They have enough underjaw but when lacking in chin it makes them look like Andy Gumps in profile.
Dobebug... I may be, as a DPCC veteran affectionately referred me to, "still nearly a pup" but in my opinion you are spot on. Obviously I can't comment on the overall evolution of the breed, as all I have to go by are pictures of dobes gone by and don't know how well they reflect the breed overall of their time... but I can certainly comment on what I see today and have seen since I started in the breed five years ago, and compare it to the written standard. I see like you stops too deep and too defined. I see improper cranial proportions (the muzzle should be longer than the skull) I see rounded skulls... I can live with wetter flews if the rest is ok, especially since these are often hidden by tightened show chokers, but then you add the wet flews on top of everything else it is a deviation from the written standard, and per the written standard, any deviation is a fault, the greater the deviation, the more faulted the dog should be. I also agree with underjaw but I do look at both chin and underjaw, I think a lot of dogs in the ring today do lack either or. By the way it's interesting to me because some of these things are also taken to an extreme in trends of the European breed ring, particularly east european breed ring (round skulls, short muzzles, steep stops, wet flews) however they tend to look coarser because they often have a lot of chin (although many of them lack underjaw to support said chins)

You might be interested to know two long time Italian judges wrote an article about heads that was translated and circulated this year, and people were so angry it had to be pulled from the site it was originally posted on, because they were virulently critiquing the current trends and saying that these heads we are seeing are not doberman heads. While the written standards do differ (and actually if I'm not mistaken the european one is a bit more detailed in terms of ratios for the proportions) they are not very different and I think anyone interested in heads might like to read it.

A little bit technical especially because of the translation
article ENG

I was also surprised to see the lack of parallel planes in some of the dogs promoted prior to the DPCA nationals. And I have been disappointed to a degree to seeing some overly fine, at times snipey heads. There's also often a lack of proper fill below the eyes.

Someone for the first time recently said Nadia had a doggy head. They meant it as a compliment, but I don't agree with it... I think this person has just grown too used to seeing improper female heads.
The two AKC judges who saw her last year at the UDC show (which has recorded comment cards/evaluation sheets) both qualified her as feminine. I think Nadia has a pretty good head, I think she has a beautiful head even... and she has gotten a lot of compliments on it, however per the written standard she has imo the maximum amount of stop I'd "tolerate" (ie that can still qualify as slight) and even then it could be less steep. She also has the absolute shortest muzzle length I'd tolerate proportionally speaking. She's also got a slightly wetter mouth and throat latch than she needs to.





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post #15 of 21 (permalink) Old 10-23-2019, 01:33 PM
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My boy from old Italian lines. He could have a little lighter and cleaner marking but I still love him. He isnt the overdone dobie either. For sure I wont even waste my time trying to show him in AKC events

One of the pics he is just 5 month old the other he is 11 month old.



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post #16 of 21 (permalink) Old 10-23-2019, 06:22 PM
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Handsome boy.

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post #17 of 21 (permalink) Old 10-23-2019, 06:42 PM
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Artemis, great pictures of Nadia. Now you just need to get that same head profile against a solid color background.

"Lots of people talk to animals...Not very many listen, though...That's the problem. " ~ The Tao of Pooh
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post #18 of 21 (permalink) Old 10-23-2019, 09:53 PM
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Ghostika,

I don't know why you would not even attempt AKC conformation with your handsome puppy. Yes, he would be a different type from the North American dogs but he looks in the 5 month picture to be quite correct--might surprise you.

How old is he now?

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post #19 of 21 (permalink) Old 10-23-2019, 10:58 PM
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Quote:
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Ghostika,



I don't know why you would not even attempt AKC conformation with your handsome puppy. Yes, he would be a different type from the North American dogs but he looks in the 5 month picture to be quite correct--might surprise you.



How old is he now?



dobebug


He is 13 month old now. He is definitely not a giant I think he is 28 but very light and elegant not a robust type. ( which I like - I guess I stuck in the 80s 90s) We have been trying to take good pics of him but it hasnt really worked out yet.



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post #20 of 21 (permalink) Old 10-23-2019, 11:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dobebug View Post
Somewhere around (in one or maybe both of the editions of "The New Doberman Pinscher" by Joanna Walker) there is a picture of Ch Damasyn the Waltzing Brook (a litter sister I believe) who was a foundation bitch for the Marks-Tey line. She was another bitch with a beautiful head and was behind (great granddam maybe) of Ch Marks-Tey Shay--who is often shown as having an ideal bitch head.

One of the things I've always liked a lot about all of those bitches is that they have correct stops--the standard says "...top of skull flat, turning with slight stop to bridge of muzzle..." An awful lot Dobes have stops so deep that they approach those of of Danes--not at all correct for Dobermans.

And about underjaw--that's another thing that gets mis-identified a lot. A whole lot of Dobes (now and in the past don't have proper chins. They have enough underjaw but when lacking in chin it makes them look like Andy Gumps in profile.

OK, that's enough from me--the eternal head hunter.

By the way--I think Rosemary is right, I think the picture is reversed. Pictures taken back then were done on plates and a lot of them (including some of my first dog) got reversed when reproduced.

dobebug

Always fun to read, the AuntBug thoughts, on the breed standard.


And Rosemary been watching some good TV.
"Columbo" Negative Reaction (TV Episode 1974).
- A photographer murders his wife and blames her death on a bungled kidnapping. But Lt. Columbo has an even sharper eye than the Pulitzer Prize winner.
- Dick Van Dyke sporting a novelty beard isn't necessarily the first thought when the ... Episode synopsis: Columbo Negative Reaction ..... before pointing out that Columbo has inadvertently reversed the print. ....

-------------------------------------------------------

Link photo of our Tanya, in 1978:
- from the Mrs. B England (Crediton, Ontario Canada)...Kakanas Dobermans (probably show breed from the 1950's to 1970's)
- she produced stunning looking dogs
Pet Perfect Express -- "Delivering human grade kibble for human pets"
- Tanya's photo was a College project, for a first year student // he got an "A" grade
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------------Kelly & (Amy - RIP @ 11.7 y/o)

Last edited by Beaumont67; 10-23-2019 at 11:28 PM.
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post #21 of 21 (permalink) Old 11-09-2019, 04:59 PM
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"A Head that Stands the test of Time"-dago-dobe.jpgI loved this article about heads and the picture of Damasyn The Waltzing Raven. It reminded me of some of the names on the pedigree of my first and best Dobe who was out of Damasyn The Enchanted Spring and by CH. El Dorado Baccus. On the pedigree is a picture of Dago which I think is a call name of Regalaire Kennels prime stud dog. I'm posting his headshot because I think it's a really good male dog head.
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