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post #1 of 25 (permalink) Old 10-09-2019, 05:11 PM Thread Starter
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Question My 17 months old male Dob is too slim

Hello all.

I'm worried because my 17 month old male Doberman (name Ozzy) is musular but verry slim, way too slim to my taste. He is only 78 pounds. I don't undertand why he is so light, his father ( Dobequestog Profile Page ) is 93 pounds and his mother about 80 pounds. But I must admit that he is VERY active.

Could it be caused by the dog food I give him ? I give him Royal Canin Large breed Adult Dog Food. His daily portion is 450 gr (about 1 pound or 4 1/2 cups).

The veterinarian say that he is perfect, but I would like him to look a little bit more male... When he is beside my 80 pounds male europeen boxer, my Dob looks like a female...

What should I do ? Help please.

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post #2 of 25 (permalink) Old 10-09-2019, 05:35 PM
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Both of his parents (especially his mom) are on the big side of what is typical for a dobe. Typically well-bred male dobes, at maturity, are more like 80-95 pounds and females are 65-70.

So your guy may actually be more representative of the breed than they are, given that he is still on the young side--dobes generally reach full height somewhere between 8 and 12 months, but they keep adding muscle until they are almost three.

How tall is he? He looks like he's a good weight for his body build in your picture, but it's hard to tell. If you post a side view of him standing up, and give us his height at the shoulder, it would be easier for us to judge.

But really, the main thing you need to be concerned about here is whether he is the proper weight for his body type. You can't get him bulkier by simply feeding him more, and if he is as active as you say, it's not likely that you can bulk him up by exercising him more (and at his age, repetitive exercise like jogging, for example, would not be good for his joints and ligaments anyway--you need to wait until he is about 18 months before starting heavy duty stuff.) He's going to be what he's going to be.

Which is nice looking, by the way. He's a handsome young man.
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post #3 of 25 (permalink) Old 10-09-2019, 05:50 PM
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Is he thin or just small (height or bone and substance)? Big difference, one is diet and the other mostly hereditary (some is conditioning). What does your breeder think? Can you post his photo?

My dog is 20 months and comes from larger sized parents but he is small (about 82#, 27.5" light on bone but has a lot more muscle than what you typically see in the show ring). Sometimes they come in to their body late or they just are on the smaller side. If your guy is not thin I would just give him some time to fill out. What did he look like as an 8wk puppy? Are you planning to show him?
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post #4 of 25 (permalink) Old 10-09-2019, 08:34 PM Thread Starter
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Thanks melbrod for your reply.

He is a little bit over 28" at the sholder, he's tall. Note that he has been castrated this monday, maybe he will take some weight from now.

I don't have a good picture showing Ozzy from side but this one give a good idea of his shape

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post #5 of 25 (permalink) Old 10-09-2019, 08:46 PM
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Ozzy's a very handsome fellow!! He looks good in your pics to me.

My boy is 9 months and was just at the vet today. He weighed in at 79 lbs and seems to have gotten taller lately although I have not measured him.

If he is healthy this is all that would matter to me.
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post #6 of 25 (permalink) Old 10-09-2019, 09:39 PM
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Yeah, at that height, I think he'll probably thicken up a little as he matures.

In your picture, as best as I can tell (and it's still not the best angle to judge him with) he basically just looks like a young dog who hasn't quite matured yet to me. He's not as broad across the chest as some dobes are, but that may come with age.

One way or the other though, his weight looks good to me in that he isn't too skinny for his build (no hips or spine sticking out) or too fat (no rolls of fat above his tail or on his ribcage.)

He has a shiny coat and and looks healthy--

I can't see your boxer behind the photobucket seal (is that him?), but in this picture, at least, he looks a little stout?????

__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ ____________________

And you didn't ask, but I feel like I need to point this out for the sake of your dogs, even if it is an unpleasant nag for you or something you already know......two male dogs, both of breeds that have a reputation for same-sex aggression, have a likelihood of developing aggression toward each other (and other male dogs) at some point. Even if they get along well now, and one or both are neutered, this kind of issue can show up suddenly and catastrophically.

You will need to be aware of that especially as your dobe matures. Serious aggression may crop up between the two--you may need to handle them a bit differently to keep everyone as safe as possible. Please research same-sex aggression so you know what you may face in the future and what you will need to do to live with them both in the same household.

Take a look at this thread for starters

https://www.dobermantalk.com/doberma...ggression.html

While this thread gives you an idea of management techniques if your dogs end up not liking each other

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post #7 of 25 (permalink) Old 10-09-2019, 09:59 PM
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So I see your photo in your original post now, and the one you just sent. He's just a bit narrow in his shoulders and ribcage and loin, it may change or it may not. Give it time and keep him in the condition he's currently in. I am a little bit curious why you had him neutered if you're concerned about him looking bitchy? I don't think he looks bitchy at all, by the way.
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post #8 of 25 (permalink) Old 10-10-2019, 11:18 AM
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The photos are a bit blurry for me, but he doesn't look thin, he just doesn't look mature yet. He still looks like an adolescent, which he is. Depending on his lines, he may mature later, or he may stay lanky looking. Some of it is genetics, and some of it is musculature.

I really never focus on the "numbers" of weight, it's more the visual of what my dog looks like. My male is on the small side of the standard, and his weight is about 75 pounds. I've had a lot of people guess that he's close to 90 pounds. He's 7 years old, but he's pretty fit, and it's the "presence" and the muscled, adult look. He continued to "fill out" until about age 4.

There isn't anything you can do to alter his genetics. I certainly wouldn't stuff him with food because all you'll do is add fat, not muscle. If you want to work on adding some muscle, you can look at doing a little conditioning, but you have to be REALLY careful. A lot of people go nuts, and do things wrong, and you can seriously injure your dog. There are good classes on conditioning (this is a good online resource: https://classroom.daisypeel.com/courses-daisy-offers/), but again, you can overdo this, and you can do this incorrectly, so...USE CAUTION. Ideally, find a qualified conditioning specialist near you. Conditioning isn't a competition, and just like human athletes, you need to do things correctly to avoid injury.
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post #9 of 25 (permalink) Old 10-10-2019, 11:56 AM Thread Starter
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Thanks for remember me about SSA. They had some serious fights in the past, nothing since 4 months. I watch them when they play, especialy when they want the same toy. When they fight for play I stop them when their fight seems no longer to be for fun...

They are both neutered but they remain two large males with a fighting capacities, so I have to watch them tightly.

You are right about my boxer, my vet told me that he should lose 4 or 5 pounds, he is 82 pounds actually. Europeen boxer are often fatter than american boxer, they always seem to have to hav too more skin, compared to american boxers tight skin.

Thanks.
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post #10 of 25 (permalink) Old 10-10-2019, 12:02 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by greenkouki View Post
So I see your photo in your original post now, and the one you just sent. He's just a bit narrow in his shoulders and ribcage and loin, it may change or it may not. Give it time and keep him in the condition he's currently in. I am a little bit curious why you had him neutered if you're concerned about him looking bitchy? I don't think he looks bitchy at all, by the way.
I didn't have the choice. In the contract with the breeder , it is specified that I must have him neutered before he get 18 months old.
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post #11 of 25 (permalink) Old 10-10-2019, 12:04 PM
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The pictures are so blurry that I can't tell much about your dog from them but at 17 months he's adolescent--and if you think about what teen age boys look like compared to what a 25 year old human male looks like it's a pretty good reference point. Like high school boys--adolescent dogs look lanky--as long as they don't have all their bones showing (spine, hip bones, ribs) it's really what they should look like.

And without having seen his parents I'm being uber critical but most Dobes who weigh what you are reporting (93 pounds for the sire and 80 pounds for the dam) would be fat--especially the bitch.

At 79 pounds and around 28"--I think you are just expecting more maturity than a Doberman would be showing. I keep only males and at under 2 years none of mine look mature--it isn't until they hit 3 years or more that they really are muscled and mature looking.

I've had a couple of males who were 28.5 inches when they stopped growing up and started filling out. One of them from a slow maturing line stuck at around 80 pounds from 14 months to about 20 months--at 3 years he was a solid muscular 83 pounds in prime weight. The most recent dog was his full height (28.5") by the time he was 8 months old. But at that age he only weighed around 82/83 pounds. At a year he weighed 85 pounds and we eventually showed him at 90 pounds--when he finished his championship I cut his weight back to 85 pounds which was a good working weight for him, since he was doing performance stuff including agility. Showing him at 90 pounds was to keep him competitive with older males in the conformation ring since he was, at that time far from mature.

Sounds like your dog is in good weight for his age and as MeadowCat pointed out you don't want to just add weight without letting him mature--making him "fat' does nothing and isn't even good for him. I go by how a dog look too--not by scale weight--I weigh dogs when they look their best-or I weigh them because they actually look underweight.

Looking slim ona 17 month old male is actually what I'd expect him to look like.

Good luck--a lot of males do gain weight after neutering but bear in mind what you want in a Doberman is muscle-not jst fat so make sure he's getting adequet exercise to build muscle.

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post #12 of 25 (permalink) Old 10-10-2019, 12:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nancy Parr View Post
Thanks for remember me about SSA. They had some serious fights in the past, nothing since 4 months. I watch them when they play, especialy when they want the same toy. When they fight for play I stop them when their fight seems no longer to be for fun...

They are both neutered but they remain two large males with a fighting capacities, so I have to watch them tightly.

You are right about my boxer, my vet told me that he should lose 4 or 5 pounds, he is 82 pounds actually. European boxer are often fatter than american boxer, they always seem to have to hav too more skin, compared to american boxers tight skin.

Thanks.
It's probably best to take a couple of proactive steps and make sure they don't have anything of high value to argue about...be careful about feeding them in the same area, and don't have toys out for them to be possessive about.
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post #13 of 25 (permalink) Old 10-10-2019, 12:36 PM Thread Starter
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Sorry for the blured pictures. They have been blured by Photobucket because with the last picture that I've added I've overpass the 25MB free storage. I've deleted lots of pictures to go under 25MB, but as they calculate the bandwith usage on a 30 days basis, they might stay blured for a while. Sorry.
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post #14 of 25 (permalink) Old 10-10-2019, 12:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nancy Parr View Post
Sorry for the blured pictures. They have been blured by Photobucket because with the last picture that I've added I've overpass the 25MB free storage. I've deleted lots of pictures to go under 25MB, but as they calculate the bandwith usage on a 30 days basis, they might stay blured for a while. Sorry.
Switch to Flickr. Free accounts go by how many pictures and videos you upload, not the amount of MB you use. Pro accounts ($50 a year) have unlimited storage.


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post #15 of 25 (permalink) Old 10-10-2019, 01:33 PM Thread Starter
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Here are the unblured pictures.

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post #16 of 25 (permalink) Old 10-12-2019, 11:21 AM Thread Starter
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Note that he was havier at 9 months (85 pounds) than he is now at 17 month (78 pounds). I'm considering changing his Royal Canin dog food by Raw Dog Food but my veterinary is against that kind of diet. She say that it is hazadous because of bacterias like salmonella and E coli.

Anyone here using raw dog food?
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post #17 of 25 (permalink) Old 10-12-2019, 02:02 PM Thread Starter
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How can we edit our posts ? I'm asking because I do not see any "Edit" button anywhere and I've noticed some gramatical errors in my posts that I want to fix. Thanks.
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post #18 of 25 (permalink) Old 10-12-2019, 02:22 PM
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You can edit your post for about 20 minutes after you put it up. After that, it's set in concrete. There is an edit button at the bottom of your post once it is displayed, but it will disappear when your time is up (or at least it won't work--I'm not sure if the button is still there and just grayed out or if it's actually gone.)

When you're working on your post, there is a "go advanced" button next to "post quick reply". If you click on that and then on "preview post" your post will show on the top of the page displayed exactly as it will show up on the forum, which gives you a chance to proof read before you post it.

If you have a correction of some major point you made, need to clarify something, change a link or some such thing, you can always post again and mention that the post is a correction of the previous one. You can even click on "quote" on your original post so it will show up in a new reply box and you can type in a new message to show what you corrected.

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post #19 of 25 (permalink) Old 10-17-2019, 09:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nancy Parr View Post
Note that he was havier at 9 months (85 pounds) than he is now at 17 month (78 pounds). I'm considering changing his Royal Canin dog food by Raw Dog Food but my veterinary is against that kind of diet. She say that it is hazadous because of bacterias like salmonella and E coli.

Anyone here using raw dog food?
If raw food was hazardous, there would be no wolves or other wild carnivores because they would have all died out from "infections." This is a deep subject, and I don't know how much you want to know, but the short version of the story is, there is a pH issue with raw food v.s. kibble or cooked food. Animals eating a raw meat diet have a much lower stomach pH than animals eating cooked or processed food, so if they DO eat something rotten, the bacteria can't live in the low stomach pH environment. Most people (and vets) think dogs are just like people, and they feed them only cooked food and vegetables and fruit and other things that don't get digested by a dog. Dogs are "opportunistic carnivores," meaning they can only process meat and animal products efficiently (and that's ALL they need to live), but they'll eat anything that strikes their fancy, including rubber gloves and tennis balls and little fuzzy toys.

I'll stop here lest I start sounding preachy, but it's perfectly safe to feed raw food to dogs. I've been doing it for over ten years now. My vet thinks the same as yours, that it's "dangerous," but we've agreed to disagree, and she sees the condition my dogs are in. Maybe vet school teaches them they can't promote a raw diet, because they get a lot of support from some of the big kibble producers. I honestly don't know. The thing about raw is once you start feeding raw, stay on raw, don't switch back and forth. Some dogs can handle the pH swings, but some can't, and they can have some pretty impressive explosive diarrhea from the resulting tummy upset.
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post #20 of 25 (permalink) Old 10-17-2019, 10:09 AM
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Veterinarians caution a lot of owners about raw because e-coli and salmonella can easily be spread to humans. Dogs are messy eaters and it is hard to keep floors, countertops, bowls, etc sanitized when feeding raw. Good luck trying to get your dog not to lick you after eating too I have nothing against raw (I feed part raw) but that is where a lot of that statement of caution from veterinarians comes from.
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post #21 of 25 (permalink) Old 10-17-2019, 10:24 AM
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I agree with GK, and I also just want to say that I have to step in and say that the idea that vets are somehow "bought" by big kibble companies, or don't know anything about nutrition REALLY bothers me. I have too many veterinary friends, and know too much about the massively high suicide rates in veterinarians not to correct this misinformation. Our veterinarians work so hard, long hours, are screamed at, abused, both in person and online, underpaid for their skill level, carry massive debt....and they do it out of genuine love and care for our animals.

I'm sure that wasn't your intent, Lannie, but for all those that might be reading along, I can't let those small things lie.
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post #22 of 25 (permalink) Old 10-17-2019, 04:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MeadowCat View Post
I agree with GK, and I also just want to say that I have to step in and say that the idea that vets are somehow "bought" by big kibble companies, or don't know anything about nutrition REALLY bothers me. I have too many veterinary friends, and know too much about the massively high suicide rates in veterinarians not to correct this misinformation. Our veterinarians work so hard, long hours, are screamed at, abused, both in person and online, underpaid for their skill level, carry massive debt....and they do it out of genuine love and care for our animals.

I'm sure that wasn't your intent, Lannie, but for all those that might be reading along, I can't let those small things lie.
I stand corrected, and I apologize. I was told about the brief 2-week nutrition training sponsored by Hill's (basically which variety of prescription food to give) by my vet, when I was trying to work up a nutrition plan for one of my dogs. She's an excellent vet, but by her own admission knows next to nothing about nutrition. She just reads the bags. I guess maybe she's not such a great vet after all, eh?

Sorry for the distraction, I'm shutting up now!
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post #23 of 25 (permalink) Old 10-17-2019, 07:24 PM
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I feed raw and I love it but it doesn't work for all dogs or their people. My old gal was fed raw 9 of her 10 years and did amazingly well on raw. She didn't process kibble properly and looked like she was starved. She did love crappy milkbones which was her junk food.

My 18ish year old cat who passed away this summer would only eat the cheapest crappiest catfood I could buy. She refused to eat anything else which pained me as a raw feeder but it's what she did best on.

Sugar has never had kibble. He was weaned onto raw and does very well on it. He only eats one ingredient dehydrated treats (a big variety though of sardines, lung, liver, beef, chicken, etc) because I don't want him to eat milkbones. If he ever does not do well on raw, I will switch him to whatever he does best on.

The vets office we go to does not subscribe to raw feeding but our vet knows that I know what I'm doing and that my dogs have always looked good and had good bloodwork to back it up so he is fine with it.
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post #24 of 25 (permalink) Old 10-18-2019, 11:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lannie View Post
I stand corrected, and I apologize. I was told about the brief 2-week nutrition training sponsored by Hill's (basically which variety of prescription food to give) by my vet, when I was trying to work up a nutrition plan for one of my dogs. She's an excellent vet, but by her own admission knows next to nothing about nutrition. She just reads the bags. I guess maybe she's not such a great vet after all, eh?

Sorry for the distraction, I'm shutting up now!
Just a little insight - this is an article that was just published this week locally. You can find all kinds of similar pieces on the rising epidemic in the veterinary community: https://www.kare11.com/article/news/...9IqbEoeMbVoxUI

And this is a MOST excellent read on veterinarians training in nutrition! To sum up, vets ARE trained in nutrition, they are pretty well trained, some choose to not keep up on it, but most have a very good base of knowledge. There is also a subset of specialists - veterinary nutritionists, which would be similar to an extended specialty in other areas, veterinary behaviorists, opthamologists, critical care specialists, rehab vets....they have further specialized just in nutrition. In any case, take a read: https://drandyroark.com/the-biggest-...and-nutrition/

And now, I'll stop the derailing, although it is, in fact, somewhat related to the OP's topic.


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post #25 of 25 (permalink) Old 10-25-2019, 02:25 PM
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Seems like your boy might just be on the tall thin side. Mine is the same way. He is almost 2.5, stands at about 29" at the shoulder, and weighs about 90lbs usually. Even though he is heavy. He still looks very slim and muscular. His chest isn't terribly wide either. My boy is bigger than both his parents (sire 28" 84lb dam 27.5" 73lb)

Mine is not neutered yet (may never be), so maybe that plays a role in it.

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