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post #1 of 26 (permalink) Old 01-29-2019, 05:46 PM Thread Starter
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Angry and need to vent (ear crop)

I am on a Facebook group for Doberman Pinscher breeder listings, today someone came in looking for recommendations for a vet that would crop and remove dew claws on a 4-5 month old. Everyone told this person that no reputable vet would crop the ears, they won’t stand and talked about the pain they’d be putting their pup through. They also explained that removing dew claws at this age is major surgery and extremely painful. He basically responded that he didn’t ask for opinions on success of the crop just vet recommendations and that he doesn’t agree with anyone’s amateur opinion ( mind you some of the best breeders on on this page) on them standing because he had a failed crop that he decided to repost at 7 years old and they ended up standing. He goes on later to say that it’s really the dew claws, they are unbearable and the pup scratches the hell out of him (guess he’s never heard of a dremel), and figured he’d have them removed and do ears at the same time since pup is under anesthesia. Apparently he “rescued” this pup from a neighbor.

I’m all for helping educate people but it just kills me knowing that this guy is going to put his pup through this when it’s completely unnecessary.

Sorry guys just pissed off and needed to vent.
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post #2 of 26 (permalink) Old 01-29-2019, 07:12 PM
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Nothing -- Nothing like a good ole vent ! You didn't do anything wrong ! You are upset --- BECAUSE you care ! Love that about this site - were all on the same page !

All I can say is you can't fix stupid !

Be safe up there !

Doc
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post #3 of 26 (permalink) Old 01-29-2019, 07:18 PM
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There used to be a thread for vents like this or anything that bothered you.

You are right to be upset, but you just can't fix stupid. Poor puppy.

"Lots of people talk to animals...Not very many listen, though...That's the problem. " ~ The Tao of Pooh
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post #4 of 26 (permalink) Old 01-29-2019, 08:12 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ECIN View Post
Nothing -- Nothing like a good ole vent ! You didn't do anything wrong ! You are upset --- BECAUSE you care ! Love that about this site - were all on the same page !

All I can say is you can't fix stupid !

Be safe up there !

Doc
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post #5 of 26 (permalink) Old 01-29-2019, 09:02 PM
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Yeah Bonnie....

The original was a thread titled STOP IT!

It was later replaced by one called Cut it out, CUT IT OUT, CUT. IT OUT!

They were simply places to vent.

John

BTW... Me? I would simply title a thread like that S...T..F...U.

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post #6 of 26 (permalink) Old 01-29-2019, 11:21 PM
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Now John ------------------------- How am I suppose to go bad to sleep after reading your post ???? Dang - I can't quit lmao !

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post #7 of 26 (permalink) Old 01-30-2019, 07:27 AM
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I am on that group and saw that post! Idiot! We actually had someone apply to the rescue for one our dogs (can't remember which dog-senior mind at work) but he/she was at 9 months or maybe older and they were asking about getting the ears cropped. I think we ended up closing him out or denying. Wonder if it is same person?
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post #8 of 26 (permalink) Old 01-30-2019, 08:45 AM
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I saw it too late to contribute. Probably for the best, I was in a foul mood and looking for some productive way to vent.
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post #9 of 26 (permalink) Old 01-30-2019, 01:31 PM
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I saw it too - sometimes you just can't do anything. People gave him good advice and the names of top croppers..... none of which would do a crop that late. People too often get defensive like that when they don't hear what they want. Poor dog.
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post #10 of 26 (permalink) Old 01-30-2019, 01:39 PM
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People too often get defensive like that when they don't hear what they want

Boy that's the truth ! I have a sister that way
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post #11 of 26 (permalink) Old 01-30-2019, 02:41 PM
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Well hmmmmmmmm, if the pup's ears have good leather and you have access to an experienced vet then 4 months is still doable! My boy had his ears done at 4 months and they look great. He went home with pain meds and never missed a beat. So it is possible, but only if you have a very good and experienced vet.
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post #12 of 26 (permalink) Old 01-31-2019, 01:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alaraa View Post
Well hmmmmmmmm, if the pup's ears have good leather and you have access to an experienced vet then 4 months is still doable! My boy had his ears done at 4 months and they look great. He went home with pain meds and never missed a beat. So it is possible, but only if you have a very good and experienced vet.
Would not do it past 12 weeks and have never done it past 9 weeks. It's not just about whether they will stand, it is about the ethics of doing a late crop due to the increased pain the puppy will go through and the increased chance of not being successful. None of the cropping vets I know will crop a puppy past 12 weeks of age.... especially not a show crop.

I've had this argument with other people who have successfully done a late crop - some as late as 1 year of age (not Dobermans). I truly don't understand the mindset of people like that. When you crop puppies at 7-9 weeks, they recover so freaking fast - it just really isn't a big deal to them. It is a whole different deal when it is even just a couple of weeks past that age range. Harder on the puppy, harder on the owner, and just in my mind not worth it. So for a 5 month old puppy - it is more like major surgery, and in my mind cruel. We already have an uphill battle with the general public when it comes to cropping - why would someone deliberately make it worse?

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post #13 of 26 (permalink) Old 01-31-2019, 07:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alaraa View Post
Well hmmmmmmmm, if the pup's ears have good leather and you have access to an experienced vet then 4 months is still doable! My boy had his ears done at 4 months and they look great. He went home with pain meds and never missed a beat. So it is possible, but only if you have a very good and experienced vet.
No cropping artist will do them as late as the individual being discussed here wants to get them done.

NONE of them.

Those who will aren't artists and have no business cropping anything living.

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post #14 of 26 (permalink) Old 01-31-2019, 07:34 AM
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The guy on the post also said 5-6 months not 4-5 months. There is a bit of a difference.
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post #15 of 26 (permalink) Old 01-31-2019, 09:19 AM
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Originally Posted by falnfenix View Post
No cropping artist will do them as late as the individual being discussed here wants to get them done.

NONE of them.

Those who will aren't artists and have no business cropping anything living.
I've had Doberman for the last 30 years and I strongly disagree with your statement. It all depends on the quality of the dog's ear and the vet doing the crop! I agree that a lot dogs that age are probably not good candidates for a late trim, but it is possible to get a great looking crop. Again, it depends on the knowledge & skill of the vet (and maybe the planets aligning just right).
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post #16 of 26 (permalink) Old 01-31-2019, 09:30 AM
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Originally Posted by Fitzmar Dobermans View Post
Would not do it past 12 weeks and have never done it past 9 weeks. It's not just about whether they will stand, it is about the ethics of doing a late crop due to the increased pain the puppy will go through and the increased chance of not being successful. None of the cropping vets I know will crop a puppy past 12 weeks of age.... especially not a show crop.

I've had this argument with other people who have successfully done a late crop - some as late as 1 year of age (not Dobermans). I truly don't understand the mindset of people like that. When you crop puppies at 7-9 weeks, they recover so freaking fast - it just really isn't a big deal to them. It is a whole different deal when it is even just a couple of weeks past that age range. Harder on the puppy, harder on the owner, and just in my mind not worth it. So for a 5 month old puppy - it is more like major surgery, and in my mind cruel. We already have an uphill battle with the general public when it comes to cropping - why would someone deliberately make it worse?
I don't like nor do show crops (I prefer the medium crop), so I can see where that could make a difference. But speaking from experience, the recovery rates of a 9 week crop and a later crop were the same. I don't see where the cruel comes in, as they all were sent home with pain meds. Spaying seems to take a bigger toll than cropping as far as surgeries go.
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post #17 of 26 (permalink) Old 01-31-2019, 09:37 AM
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Quote:
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The guy on the post also said 5-6 months not 4-5 months. There is a bit of a difference.
That's the point I'm trying to make. At 5-6 months, it shouldn't be done, full stop.

4 months...I'm not a fan, but I'm also not a cropping expert.

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I've had Doberman for the last 30 years and I strongly disagree with your statement. It all depends on the quality of the dog's ear and the vet doing the crop! I agree that a lot dogs that age are probably not good candidates for a late trim, but it is possible to get a great looking crop. Again, it depends on the knowledge & skill of the vet (and maybe the planets aligning just right).
Again, we're talking about someone with an older puppy, not 4 months old. This isn't about you.
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post #18 of 26 (permalink) Old 01-31-2019, 02:20 PM
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That's the point I'm trying to make. At 5-6 months, it shouldn't be done, full stop.

4 months...I'm not a fan, but I'm also not a cropping expert.



Again, we're talking about someone with an older puppy, not 4 months old. This isn't about you.
Hmmm, never said it was about me so take a chill pill! But since you pointed it out I went back and looked at my pet records and it wasn't 4 months, it was actually 5 months! Again, whether it is 4, 5 or 6 months it still depends on the quality of the ears and how good your vet is. Just sharing my experience and contributing to the discussion. Good day!
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post #19 of 26 (permalink) Old 01-31-2019, 03:25 PM
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Quote:
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I've had Doberman for the last 30 years and I strongly disagree with your statement. It all depends on the quality of the dog's ear and the vet doing the crop! I agree that a lot dogs that age are probably not good candidates for a late trim, but it is possible to get a great looking crop. Again, it depends on the knowledge & skill of the vet (and maybe the planets aligning just right).
You also have a very different mindset on Dobermans than most people on this forum (as an example, you've posted about your dogs living outside). You've not shared photos of the crops on your dogs, when requested, when you've made cropper recommendations. i'm just not inclined to agree with you even after 30 years of ownership.
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post #20 of 26 (permalink) Old 01-31-2019, 03:57 PM
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OK folks...

This is a dumb and pointless conversation.

If one wants a dog with cropped ears, then search out a decent breeder who sends their pups to their new home with cropped ears.

Anyone cropping dog's ears at 5-6 months is setting themselves up for eventual failure. All that time and $$ for absolutely nothing

I admit that at 4 months, if one goes with a very short crop, typical of 40's military dogs or dogs bred to fight (ugh), there is a decent chance the ears will remain up. Ugly... but still up.

But why? What's the point?

Oh well...

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post #21 of 26 (permalink) Old 01-31-2019, 05:44 PM
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While you might get very, very, VERY lucky and get your dobes' ears to stand when he was cropped so late, it is certainly not something I would recommend or actually even hold out to someone as being possible, especially if you are talking to someone new to the breed. Most people who are dealing with posting and getting cropped ears to stand for the very first time have a moderately steep learning curve ahead of them...why set them up for the almost certainty of failure by telling them that you can crop a dobe's ears at 4 or 5 months? All the money and time they have spent will be for nothing and a good chunk of those people will feel badly that they put their dog through what turned out to be a pointless process, and also that they failed their dog somehow.

When really, it would be the vet's fault for agreeing to crop the dog's ears too late (re-crops to fix ear problems can be done later, but only in special cases), and the fault of dobe owners who encourage these newcomers to try something with such a high percentage of failure.

Last edited by melbrod; 02-01-2019 at 09:50 AM.
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post #22 of 26 (permalink) Old 02-01-2019, 08:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alaraa
Hmmm, never said it was about me so take a chill pill! But since you pointed it out I went back and looked at my pet records and it wasn't 4 months, it was actually 5 months! Again, whether it is 4, 5 or 6 months it still depends on the quality of the ears and how good your vet is. Just sharing my experience and contributing to the discussion. Good day!
And yet, you made this about you.

Your choices for your dogs are yours, of course, but they don't fit the rest of the group. You obviously bought from a crappy breeder if you had the ears cropped, and you got them cropped late. You've said you prefer a short crop, which almost never fits the Doberman head. I question your "expertise" when you seem to fail at understanding the breed itself.

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Originally Posted by MeadowCat
You also have a very different mindset on Dobermans than most people on this forum (as an example, you've posted about your dogs living outside). You've not shared photos of the crops on your dogs, when requested, when you've made cropper recommendations. i'm just not inclined to agree with you even after 30 years of ownership.
This, right here.

I don't think alaraa went to someone who actually knows how to crop Doberman ears. They might do a generic short crop, but nothing we'd expect to see on this breed.

I'm going with that until proven otherwise. With photos...identifying them as alaraa's dogs.
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post #23 of 26 (permalink) Old 02-01-2019, 09:37 AM
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Originally Posted by falnfenix View Post
And yet, you made this about you.

Your choices for your dogs are yours, of course, but they don't fit the rest of the group. You obviously bought from a crappy breeder if you had the ears cropped, and you got them cropped late. You've said you prefer a short crop, which almost never fits the Doberman head. I question your "expertise" when you seem to fail at understanding the breed itself.



This, right here.

I don't think alaraa went to someone who actually knows how to crop Doberman ears. They might do a generic short crop, but nothing we'd expect to see on this breed.

I'm going with that until proven otherwise. With photos...identifying them as alaraa's dogs.

Bless your heart. NO, you made it about me! Especially taking time to go thru and pull up old posts, which seems a little stalky and vengeful to me. I was just sharing my experience, even when it is not considered PC with this forum. Yes, I treat my dogs like dogs (oh no) and they mainly live outside (oh gasp!). When it is cold I put heat lamps on the enclosed back porch. When it is freezing they come inside. They are happy, well adjusted dogs. I am at work during the day so they would be alone whether they are inside or outside! I'm pretty sure they prefer the outside chasing squirrels and dipping in the pool than staying in the house doing nothing but sleep and stare at the walls. When I get home, I am outside taking care of all our livestock so they have time with me and we play.

As far as posting pictures, if I have to add photos to a site then transfer them to this site...…....forget it...….. I have better things to do, not happening. IF that poster was interested in my vet they could have pm'd me or contacted the vet directly. I doubt they would have come this far to do a crop, anyway. Plus, I'm not here to do someone else's leg work. As I have stated, I don't do the show croppy thing I do the medium crop....NOT the short crop.

I didn't buy from a crappy breeder and my expertise with Doberman's is just fine, thank you very much! I have nothing to prove to you and I don't understand why you've targeted me with your aggression and insulting insinuations other than I have a different opinion than you.
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post #24 of 26 (permalink) Old 02-01-2019, 10:03 AM
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ZERO ethical, reputable breeders in the United States will sell their dogs to be cropped by someone they didn't approve.

Sorry. Your ability to find the sort of breeder we encourage here is significantly lacking.

BTW - I didn't pull up old posts (again, please follow along), but expect anything you post here to be fully available. It's not stalkery, especially when an admin does it.
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post #25 of 26 (permalink) Old 02-01-2019, 01:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by falnfenix View Post
ZERO ethical, reputable breeders in the United States will sell their dogs to be cropped by someone they didn't approve.

Sorry. Your ability to find the sort of breeder we encourage here is significantly lacking.

BTW - I didn't pull up old posts (again, please follow along), but expect anything you post here to be fully available. It's not stalkery, especially when an admin does it.
I don't understand why you insist on attacking me but I will defend myself! I have not posted anything that should upset you like this. You know nothing of the breeder(s) I deal with and I WILL NOT buy a dog that I can't have the ears cropped in the style I want. Whether you think they are reputable or not, is insignificant to me and I don't have anything to prove to you. (Again, just a bunch of fluff and insulting insinuations) All the dogs that I have had the pleasure to share my life with have been top quality. You seem angry and bent out of shape because someone dares to think and act differently from you.

The main point I am making (please try to keep up) is that while it is not ideal to wait so long to crop, it is still doable if you have a good vet and the pup's ears have good leather. Maybe a little harder for the alien eared show crop, but for the medium crop it is fine. Your elitist attitude is very off putting. And yes, it is very creepy and stalky (whether it is an admin or not) to rummage thru old posts to try and find "dirt" on a member! Whether my dogs live outside or inside was just a tangent and did not add to the conversation of ear cropping!! Sadly, the art of discussion has been replaced by hate and intolerance.
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