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post #76 of 106 (permalink) Old 12-03-2016, 08:14 PM
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Alright

I can't believe all the bullshit I'm reading here tonight.

You rehome a dog because you have cancer and you're dying or have lost your job and you're homeless and can't care for it anymore NOT because you have another dog you want to show in the ring.

I can't believe some of the replies I've read in this thread by the same people who in the past have thought nothing about jumping down someone's throat for the same exact thing.

Seriously, people? I think this thread should be a sticky so that the next time someone comes here saying they want to rehome their dog for whatever reason, people can come here to read their answers to this thread before they jump down that poster's throat and condemn him/her as an evil human being.

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post #77 of 106 (permalink) Old 12-03-2016, 08:45 PM
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I agree TNfisher. This is how I felt last night but instead I was patronized and condescended to, I guess to make a point and "an example of". I'm still not really sure.

If you can't meet your dog's needs for real life issues, then of course the best thing is to rehome the dog. But in the same breath you don't then state you will be getting another puppy and will have 3 dogs total and continue to foster. How do you know that won't be too overwhelming and you will have to rehome more? Where and when does it end?

I think this whole situation is sad and this thread is sad. I don't think it needs to be closed. It needs to stay up for people to be able to read it. I question really what the intent of this thread was for.

I have my own opinion on what is going on here but I wouldn't want to offend anyone by expressing that on an Internet forum.

But here's my bottom line. I would have more respect if the poster had said something like....I really want to start my breeding program and since Gretchen is from a byb, I won't be able to use her as my foundation bitch as I had originally thought so I am going to rehome her so she can live out her life as someone's beloved pet.

I personally would still not agree with this decision but I would respect it.

Again I truly wish for Gretchen to have a wonderful future.
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post #78 of 106 (permalink) Old 12-03-2016, 08:56 PM
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I'm going to remember this thread. The next time someone comes here and has problems with their dog and wants to give it up, and the sanctimonious jump all over him/her, I'm going to point them towards this thread and tell them to STFU (And you know who you are)

Jesus Christ my blood pressure hasn't been this high in months.

Hypocritical bastards.

Read what's below Mocha's picture in my signature. When you're done, read it again. Slowly.
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post #79 of 106 (permalink) Old 12-03-2016, 08:57 PM
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My opinion doesn't mean a whole lot and it is really nothing more than an opinion. I try really hard to not judge people for anything because I've done some remarkably stupid things in my life and will continue to do so until Jesus returns. But since this is a message board I am still going to share my thoughts.

Like others have said, I personally believe we have to adjust our lives to fit our dogs needs. Mabel is a service dog in training. She LOVES working with me and my life would be greatly improved if she were to reach the potential of her tasks. But if for some reason she doesn't and is deemed unfit for service work, I am still going to keep her and make her life as enjoyable as possible. I know others who had their dogs fail as service prospects because they just didn't have the work ethic, so they found ways to make their dog's lives more enjoyable by doing the stuff they wanted to do.

I also have two other dogs. They all have completely different personalities and enjoy almost nothing that their sisters do. Nala, my beagle, is not at all my type of dog. She refuses to run, constantly gets in to trouble if she isn't happy with how her day has gone, has numerous food and environment allergies, and has done a number of things that would drive almost anyone to the point of insanity. But I chose a long time ago to find ways to make Nala happy every day. Giving her alone play time, doing sent training activities, etc.

Bottom line; I understand that you have strong desires to start your own breeding program and I can totally understand that. I can't really put myself in your exact shoes but I can relate to having a dog that doesn't necessarily fit your long term plans even though you still love them to death. I personally feel that the best thing you could possibly do for G would be to postpone your plans of breeding and wait until a later time in the future. Their is still plenty of time left to breed (unless I'm way off in how old I think you are). Again, no judgement at all if you continue to go through with your plans. All I can say is that it seems like you still might be doing this while putting your personal goals and plans before G's needs and desires.

Regardless of whether you do it or not, I don't doubt that you love her. Good luck with this crappy situation of having to choose between your passions and your dog that you are crazy about.


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post #80 of 106 (permalink) Old 12-03-2016, 09:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gretchen_Red View Post
I can't put my plans on hold, I'm under obligations to Mavs breeder to show and work him. Mav's breeder who understands why I'm doing what I'm doing.
Personally, if I were Mav's breeder, I'd be seriously worried that if he doesn't stack up to be everything you think he should be, he'll be the next one out of your house. And I have a hard time believing that your obligations to his breeder include tossing out the first dog so you can concentrate on him.

While I'm at it, how "soul crushing" is it going to be for Gretchen when new owner goes to work the horses and goes to play rodeo? Isn't it really just the same thing?
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post #81 of 106 (permalink) Old 12-03-2016, 09:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Caleb Cox View Post
Good luck with this crappy situation of having to choose between your passions and your dog that you are crazy about.
Your dog should be your passion, end of story. If you're "crazy" about your dog, you'd do anything in the world to keep him/her by your side.

You don't choose between a number of ribbons and a dog who worships the ground you walk on. Sorry.

Yeah I'm on a f*&^%$ roll, keep them coming, please. I'll be here all weekend



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post #82 of 106 (permalink) Old 12-03-2016, 09:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TNfisher View Post
Your dog should be your passion, end of story. If you're "crazy" about your dog, you'd do anything in the world to keep him/her by your side.

You don't choose between a number of ribbons and a dog who worships the ground you walk on. Sorry.
I completely agree. That's why if you read the rest of my post then you'll see that I said the right thing to do is to keep G and work her the way she so desires to be worked. But the right thing to do isn't always easy. All I was saying is that I understand that it would suck to have to give up on a personal dream for a while. Doesn't mean I would choose the dream over what's best for the dog.


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post #83 of 106 (permalink) Old 12-03-2016, 10:16 PM
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I haven't posted in a while. I forgot my password and didn't bother to retrieve it, because quite frankly, I got tired of being chastised and condescended to by long term members because my research and choice of breeder for a pet didn't live up to their impossibly high expectations. I've seen so many new and potential Doberman owners get run off of here when they asked questions and felt they had to defend themselves. I've lurked, but had to update my password because of this thread.

I agree with the member who suggested this thread should by a sticky! The hypocrisy is so deep here I need to put my boots on. 🙄

Because Gretchen Red is part of the right clique here, her choice to give away her BYB dog because she changed her mind and decided to go in a different direction is lauded by some vocal members who joined her in deriding, interrogating, and shaming new Dobie puppy owners who didn't buy their their dog from an "approved" DT breeder or someone who needed to find a home for their dog. The irony is delicious.
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post #84 of 106 (permalink) Old 12-03-2016, 10:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 4x4bike ped View Post
@Jazi Well... I Love P/A posts as much as the next person and you rock! Still I say its time we gave this thread a rest. BTW.... J. I dislike few things in life, but being patronized is a pet peeve of mine. Dispararge me all you wish. No problem. I certainly have never denigrated you on DT. But the child-like rebuke is ridicuous. Should you ever care to go head to head with me on any topic. At any time. Please feel free to interact. Privately and off forum. I am an open book, unlike most folks on internet forums.
Look forward to hearing from you!

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Sorry mods... delete this post if you feel it is needed.

Personally, I feel this thread should be closed
J.
Lololol!!! Wanting a thread closed because it didn't go the way you wanted and members pushed back and expressed their opinion (very civilly) on the double standards. ���������� And calling out a member to go head to head privately and offline because you felt patronized? How do you think the rest of us felt?

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post #85 of 106 (permalink) Old 12-03-2016, 10:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by greenkouki View Post
Why get a second dog if you don't even have "time" for the first??? It just makes absolutely no sense to me. There are ways to make it work like only showing/working locally, hire a dog sitter, or paying a handler to do it for you, or better yet change what activities do with the other dog so you can properly provide for both of their needs.

A dog is a lifetime commitment (10+ years) and one can't just change priorities then use those as justification for re-homing. Don't spin this to try and make yourself feel better. I'm sorry I just have no sympathy for this kind of thing. It's different when you're already a breeder and a show prospect puppy doesn't grow out like you hoped, so you re-home it but you purchased this dog as a companion.
Quote:
Originally Posted by greenkouki View Post
Just look at the past ones who did the same- BIB,
I also thought of BackInBlack when I read this thread. I know there were a good number of people on this forum that also knew her in person.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MaryAndDobes View Post
Personally, if I were Mav's breeder, I'd be seriously worried that if he doesn't stack up to be everything you think he should be, he'll be the next one out of your house. And I have a hard time believing that your obligations to his breeder include tossing out the first dog so you can concentrate on him.

While I'm at it, how "soul crushing" is it going to be for Gretchen when new owner goes to work the horses and goes to play rodeo? Isn't it really just the same thing?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dobe_Mom View Post
If you have the perfect dog you should keep her. I would give anything to get back all of mine that are gone but not forgotten, even though none of them were perfect.
I had to re-post those as they were so right-on to the thoughts I had when I read this.



I'm going to comment here mostly for those who may be reading and are not sure where the confusion and frustration is coming from by some members here who are not at ease with this situation.

And for those of you who may know Gretchen_Red in person, please be advised that those of us reading her words are responding to just that. Her own story which she chose to share in her own words.


There is a big difference between a breeder placing a dog and placing a dog to become a breeder.


Many people have to make the difficult choice between making dogs their whole lives and doing whatever dance it takes to make it to the shows, work, trials, events, etc. I know it is very tough and you give up a lot of other areas of life even if you aren't interested in breeding. It is very time and energy consuming.

On top of all of that, so is breeding. And you need to do the above to make breeding possible, as an ethical reputable breeder (especially so if someone wants to seek breeding the 'total doberman').

So it is hard to take seriously this commitment on words alone when someone starts out, essentially, saying they cannot handle a two dog situation after less then 2 years and less then 3 years owning the breed.



I cannot speak to the exact character of Gretchen_Red or her full intentions but as an aside, from reading past posts, I would feel greatly that she too would be missing out on what the two of them could accomplish together.
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post #86 of 106 (permalink) Old 12-03-2016, 11:10 PM
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I have to say that I'm with many others on the forum that disagree with you on rehoming Gretchen.

I have read and re-read your reasons for rehoming her, but one thing that sticks out in my mind is from your original post.

You said that you went to Nationals to campaign for Gretchen to find a dog for her to be bred with. You mention not breeding her to just anything and I agree.

But then a few sentences later you tell us that Gretchen doesn't have a lot of health behind her and it's a bigger gamble than you would be willing to put puppy buyers through. I agree with that as well.

Then why were you looking to breed her from the get go? Looking for a dog to breed her to and then saying she doesn't have the health in her lines seems contradictory.

You mention in another post that you don't need to finish her because why take points away from other dogs since you don't intend to breed her. Again, it would seem you knew her health pedigree when you got her, so why did you start her showing to start with?

I'm sure the person you are giving her to is a very nice lady, but since she trains horses and whatnot and hires a nanny for her kids while she is away, how is this any different than you being away?

You say in another post that Gretchen lives to work and train and that maybe when she is older she may be content not to, but she is nowhere near that now. How would this new home, given what this lady does, be better suited for Gretchen? It appears, at least on the surface, that she is going into a similar situation.

Since your mind is made up, I do wish the very best for Gretchen and hope she will be happy. I don't for a minute doubt you love Gretchen, I just don't agree with your reasoning for giving her up.

Me and others on this forum don't know Gretchen so we cannot say with certainty that she wouldn't be happy in your home or the new home she is going to. Every dog is different. But I do know there are dogs that wouldn't do well away from their original owners. My dog falls
into that category as does the dog another person mentioned who wouldn't eat and was moping when their owner tried to rehome them 3 times!

Well, I've said my two cents worth. Again, I sincerely hope it all works out and Gretchen is happy.


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post #87 of 106 (permalink) Old 12-03-2016, 11:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 4x4bike ped View Post
@Jazi Well... I Love P/A posts as much as the next person and you rock! Still I say its time we gave this thread a rest. BTW.... J. I dislike few things in life, but being patronized is a pet peeve of mine. Dispararge me all you wish. No problem. I certainly have never denigrated you on DT. But the child-like rebuke is ridicuous. Should you ever care to go head to head with me on any topic. At any time. Please feel free to interact. Privately and off forum. I am an open book, unlike most folks on internet forums.
Look forward to hearing from you!

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Sorry mods... delete this post if you feel it is needed.

Personally, I feel this thread should be closed
J.
Wow. Re-reading this, the response accusing Jazi of being P/A (passive/aggressive) is itself P/A, along with insulting and intimidating another member.
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post #88 of 106 (permalink) Old 12-04-2016, 12:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DoberPappa View Post
Wow. Re-reading this, the response accusing Jazi of being P/A (passive/aggressive) is itself P/A, along with insulting and intimidating another member.
LOL...Intimidating? Hardly......You on the other hand?
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post #89 of 106 (permalink) Old 12-04-2016, 01:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 4x4bike ped View Post
LOL...Intimidating? Hardly......You on the other hand?
I haven't intimidated anyone. I haven't belittled anyone. I haven't called out another member to go head to head offline. You on the other hand?
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post #90 of 106 (permalink) Old 12-04-2016, 02:13 AM
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Where's RedFawnRising when you need her?
i have been worried that the " Beware of Dbberman Talks " people have her
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post #91 of 106 (permalink) Old 12-04-2016, 05:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TNfisher View Post
Alright

I can't believe all the bullshit I'm reading here tonight.

You rehome a dog because you have cancer and you're dying or have lost your job and you're homeless and can't care for it anymore NOT because you have another dog you want to show in the ring.

I can't believe some of the replies I've read in this thread by the same people who in the past have thought nothing about jumping down someone's throat for the same exact thing.

Seriously, people? I think this thread should be a sticky so that the next time someone comes here saying they want to rehome their dog for whatever reason, people can come here to read their answers to this thread before they jump down that poster's throat and condemn him/her as an evil human being.

Where's RedFawnRising when you need her?

Well said. This is not a good reason to rehome. If this wasn't a well known member he/she would have been ran outta here already. The support has really puzzled me. It's like buying a new toy and throwing the old one away?
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post #92 of 106 (permalink) Old 12-04-2016, 09:24 AM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Bluedobie View Post
I have to say that I'm with many others on the forum that disagree with you on rehoming Gretchen.

I have read and re-read your reasons for rehoming her, but one thing that sticks out in my mind is from your original post.

You said that you went to Nationals to campaign for Gretchen to find a dog for her to be bred with. You mention not breeding her to just anything and I agree.

But then a few sentences later you tell us that Gretchen doesn't have a lot of health behind her and it's a bigger gamble than you would be willing to put puppy buyers through. I agree with that as well.

Then why were you looking to breed her from the get go? Looking for a dog to breed her to and then saying she doesn't have the health in her lines seems contradictory.

You mention in another post that you don't need to finish her because why take points away from other dogs since you don't intend to breed her. Again, it would seem you knew her health pedigree when you got her, so why did you start her showing to start with?

I'm sure the person you are giving her to is a very nice lady, but since she trains horses and whatnot and hires a nanny for her kids while she is away, how is this any different than you being away?

You say in another post that Gretchen lives to work and train and that maybe when she is older she may be content not to, but she is nowhere near that now. How would this new home, given what this lady does, be better suited for Gretchen? It appears, at least on the surface, that she is going into a similar situation.

Since your mind is made up, I do wish the very best for Gretchen and hope she will be happy. I don't for a minute doubt you love Gretchen, I just don't agree with your reasoning for giving her up.

Me and others on this forum don't know Gretchen so we cannot say with certainty that she wouldn't be happy in your home or the new home she is going to. Every dog is different. But I do know there are dogs that wouldn't do well away from their original owners. My dog falls
into that category as does the dog another person mentioned who wouldn't eat and was moping when their owner tried to rehome them 3 times!

Well, I've said my two cents worth. Again, I sincerely hope it all works out and Gretchen is happy.


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I'll address this:

In regards to DCM in her lines they are farther back and only on the sires side. But they are there. You could also say anyone with a Blue puppy or a Leggato should never breed but they have....

Gretchen's sire was put down due to brain cancer/tumors/seizures. It's said that brain cancer isn't necessarily hereditary.

Dogs die of something in pedigrees and it's rarely old age. I know how every single dog passed in the seven generations. I don't think breeding G. Would end up in a puppy death sentence but it is sort of a crap shoot. One that I went back and forth on since I found out. In the end my final decision was if I want to breed for health that I can't truly breed Gretchen and promise that. I could finish her easily, her ROM is right there as I know she could pass the WAC. And I know this would open doors to many studs. In the end I didn't feel this was the best for the breed.
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post #93 of 106 (permalink) Old 12-04-2016, 09:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gretchen_Red View Post
I'll address this:

In regards to DCM in her lines they are farther back and only on the sires side. But they are there. You could also say anyone with a Blue puppy or a Leggato should never breed but they have....

Gretchen's sire was put down due to brain cancer/tumors/seizures. It's said that brain cancer isn't necessarily hereditary.

Dogs die of something in pedigrees and it's rarely old age. I know how every single dog passed in the seven generations. I don't think breeding G. Would end up in a puppy death sentence but it is sort of a crap shoot. One that I went back and forth on since I found out. In the end my final decision was if I want to breed for health that I can't truly breed Gretchen and promise that. I could finish her easily, her ROM is right there as I know she could pass the WAC. And I know this would open doors to many studs. In the end I didn't feel this was the best for the breed.

One I call complete and utter bs on you knowing how every single dog in 7 generations died.
Two, you're doing the right thing by not breeding a byb bitch it's the truth.
3. How does this all add up to you handing off g to someone else? You're not owner handling mav. How does you putting your responsibility on someone else make you a better person or potential breeder? It doesn't. That's the reality of it. What it does do is show every single person here who hasn't bought into your crap the truth about what kind of person you really are.
You want to be a big girl about this? Finish G put all the titles you claim she can easily attain on her and keep her. When you took her in it was supposed to be a lifetime commitment. Not until you got different ideas and a wake up call commitment.
You can spout all the garbage you want about how unfair it is to G that she gets left behind and I don't buy it. Your focus has shifted and it's easier to ditch her than meet your 'lifetime' obligation to her. Life is never easy, our choices define us and help make us who we are. This choice you're making is a defining moment in your life...
Many many people in this world don't end up with the dog they wanted (me being one of them).
The one thing that's sets us all apart is how we deal with the hurdles in our path. G not turning out to be exactly what you wanted is a hurdle, but it is also a result of the choices YOU made. She didn't make any of these choices, you did. You got a dog from a bad breeder and somewhere along the lines decided you wanted a Cinderella story.... now that reality has hit home she's no longer good enough and you're no longer committed to her. That is the cold hard truth. Many breeders started out with dogs they never ended up breeding. What they did end up with a buttload of experience and a dog they loved more than anything.

What you're saying to many of us is that G isn't going to take you anywhere so she's no longer worth your time or effort so off she goes to a new home... ahhh North American mindset at its finest. It's broken, it's not perfect, it's no longer gaining me the attention I desire so I'm getting rid of it and I will get a new one...
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Last edited by SieYa; 12-04-2016 at 10:01 AM.
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post #94 of 106 (permalink) Old 12-04-2016, 11:13 AM
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I went to some of my best friends who are breeders, I've had the talk with Shelian, I've had it with Whitney Newman, Sharon Marinelli, Nancy Christensen.... In fact it puts me in good company with many breeders that have also rehomed dogs.
Ok, so if you want to go that route - I doubt that any long-time breeder said hey, you should keep a male and start your breeding program. The first thing most long-time, reputable breeders will tell you is that you don't start a breeding program with a male, you don't need a male in your house at all, buy the best bitch you can as you can take her anywhere. You know that. Why get Mav? So, really, why even keep Mav? Not that I'm for heaving either of them out of a home, especially when you're not a breeder yet, and really don't even have to as YOUR PLANS CAN WAIT. Any plan like this can wait. It's not like you or the world is in danger if you don't become a breeder tomorrow. I mean, get over yourself. You and your 2 1/2 years. Jeesh.
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post #95 of 106 (permalink) Old 12-04-2016, 11:29 AM
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post #96 of 106 (permalink) Old 12-04-2016, 11:40 AM
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post #97 of 106 (permalink) Old 12-04-2016, 11:59 AM
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I don't know why you think this will be better for G? This may be a great family but they seem just as busy. Im sure showing horses takes time and travel. Also, I think these are smaller children? What happens In a few years when they are in schools,sports, etc? I don't buy for for ine second that's G will never number one priority with all that going on. I highly doubt the dogs drive will be satisfied.

Not trying to be morbid but trying to open your eyes. Try to look at it like this. If you ditch G and then In a few months something's terrible happens. ( whether it be a bad accident or whether It be a breed specific diseases such as DCM.
Would you still think you were right or would you feel terrible and wish G was still In need your care? I think you would feel terrible and selfish.
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post #98 of 106 (permalink) Old 12-04-2016, 12:10 PM
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I haven't intimidated anyone. I haven't belittled anyone. I haven't called out another member to go head to head offline. You on the other hand?
You just did......
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post #99 of 106 (permalink) Old 12-04-2016, 12:23 PM
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I don't know what kind of relationship Karen and Sharon Marinelli (Sharjet Dobermans) have, but I will tell you that Sharon is not the kind that willy nilly rehomes her personal Dobermans. I've been in her house frequently enough over the past 10 or so years to see this personally. She mostly co-owns her dogs and keeps a maximum of about 5 in her home.
I do know that some long time breeders re-home breeding bitches when they are done with them in order to make room for new ones - I think that is personally despicable ...... but know that sometimes it IS the best thing for the bitches if it means just being one of many regulated to the crate in the back corner. As I said before, I keep a maximum of 3 in my house - which is why I've been taking a long break from showing and breeding at this point in my life.

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post #100 of 106 (permalink) Old 12-04-2016, 12:26 PM
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...It sounds to me that because for whatever reason you're unable to finish her, reputable breeders won't breed with a known byb bitch...
DingDingDing, I believe we have a winner!

Well, it probably doesn't end there. I've also been warned by a handful of folks that no reputable breeder will give me the time of day, no matter what work I put into finishing Kor, unless I spay Kira, because has no branded kennel bloodlines for a few generations back in her pedigree. Any potential breeding viability of an animal who has non-branded bloodlines must be sacrificed to demonstrate loyalty to the clique.

The irony of this is that Linda, Gretchen's breeder, had apparently run into a similar situation, where she was being snubbed by "reputable breeders", because she wasn't part of the clique, it didn't matter that she was showing and earning titles (I think she was doing this from statements she herself made to me).

I heard tell of an unsavory incident in which she mislead a "reputable breeder" in order to acquire a dog with a fancy pedigree to use as breeding stock because nobody with a branded bloodline would have anything to do with her as long as she owned any unspayed bitches who were not of a branded bloodline, even though she was trying to make a name for her own bloodline.

I have more than general interest in this situation because I acquired my first Doberman from Linda as a rehome, under similar circumstances to this very thread-- Linda was showing her and tried to breed her, but she wouldn't settle and was also extremely SSA towards her mother and sisters. Linda did not feel it was fair to her that she couldn't let her loose with the other Dobes all day, she treated her dogs like family, not caged hens. An infertile, SSA bitch just wasn't fitting-in to her plans very well at that time. Her first rehoming effort didn't succeed, but she had her spayed at that point and I provided her a forever home.

I guess it was a positive outcome all in all, for me, for my first Dobe, and for Linda.

There's another member here, member of the DPCA, who not-too-long-ago rehomed one of her well-used breeding bitches once her breeding career was over. I honestly don't remember if she said anything about it here, maybe that was only on the "other forum", but that didn't set any better with me than any of her other bad practices. She's despicable, and frequently demonstrates that a leopard cannot change its spots.

It's much the same with this situation, here. While the outcome may be a win for all parties involved, rehoming one's own dog speaks to their loyalty and character.

I'm a very pragmatic individual, but sentimentality can be one of my greatest weaknesses. I want to say it's always for the best to find a new home for a dog when you can't give them the qualtiy of life they deserve, and for Dobes, that very much includes presence. The decision to rehome Gretchen seems reasonably pragmatic, but my maudlin side must remain adamant that such disloyalty, chosen rather than dicated by circumstances beyond one's control, is one of those things which will lead to regret.

This is the regret which is hardest to live with, that you did not realize what you had until she's gone.

Quote:
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You may want to review Mav's lines again- his dam is mostly euro show lines and not true euro working lines, as evidenced by the Royal Bell, Wantij, and del Citone dogs in her pedigree. I am not saying this is bad- my dog has many of the same dogs in his pedigree (as he is mostly euro show himself with a little bit of euro work) and I cannot run out of good things to say about my experience with Mav's breeder- but I am saying that Mav is not half euro working lines by a large amount. Just because he does not have any of those particular names in his pedigree does not mean he does not have concerning dogs- Gino Gomez (who is also in my dog's pedigree) is another popular euro show sire that is blamed by many for the spread of DCM and is fairly close in Mav's line. Not to say that AmShow lines don't have their own popular sires with DCM either- just that it seems you only focus on euro dogs that carry it without acknowledging that both show lines in this country their own popular sires and DCM riddled pedigrees.
Very well explained. I think what it boils down to is that everyone feels better about themselves if they can point to a scapegoat for this, that, or the other thing to think they're safe and it could never happen to them. Sure, there were problems with DCM in Gino Gomez' descendants, but there are generations and branches which seem to have been skipped. DCM is everywhere in the breed and if someone has figured out how to avoid it by following (or avoiding) specific bloodlines, it probably wouldn't be a problem anymore.

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I haven't posted in a while. I forgot my password and didn't bother to retrieve it, because quite frankly, I got tired of being chastised and condescended to by long term members because my research and choice of breeder for a pet didn't live up to their impossibly high expectations. I've seen so many new and potential Doberman owners get run off of here when they asked questions and felt they had to defend themselves. I've lurked, but had to update my password because of this thread.
I hope the tide is turning. I do my best to encourage people not to be run-off, not to think they owe any apologies, and not to be ashamed of their dog just because a number of folks here act like BMW owners when it comes to the importance of the names on dogs' pedigrees.

I'm a firm believer in judging breeders on their own behavior & results. Do they do right by the dogs in their care? Are their breeding practices concerning? Are things just not working-out favorably for an inordinate number of their puppy buyers?

I judge dogs I see on what they are and the sorts of problems they may have. There is nothing about a dog's pedigree or breeder, short of documented hereditary problems, which inherently makes it genetic garbage that should not be bred.

Only the "newbies" who are trolling from the "other forum" and/or the "Beware of DT" crowd are worthy of being ridiculed and run-off, but they're usually easy to spot because their defense of particularly bad breeders and bad breeding practices is just so over-the-top.
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