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post #51 of 106 (permalink) Old 12-02-2016, 07:32 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Coco Loco View Post
Do you see how contradictory this statement is? She's a great dog and pretty much perfect but she has to go because no one will let their male sire a litter with her and you will definitely have another puppy.

This is why you get negative responses. Is becoming a breeder that imminently close for you that you can't still have her in your home. I thought it took years and years to become an ethical, reputable breeder? Didn't you say in this thread you've been in dobes for 2.5 years and done more for the breed than most?

I really don't know the answers because I'm not interested in becoming a breeder. I just want to make sure Coco has the best life possible which she does for her entire life with her family who loves her and she loves them.
I don't care that I'm getting negative comments. I expected it. I expect that people wouldn't understand, or think that I'm not being truthful, or whatever. But I felt people deserved the truth and deserved to hear it from me.
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post #52 of 106 (permalink) Old 12-02-2016, 07:42 PM
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When are you getting your new puppy? Is she already lined up?

Is there anything you're not telling us? When is her spay scheduled for? I would think the sooner the better. Wouldn't want an accidental litter if your friend is not used to managing an intact female especially if Gretchen escaped 3 times while you were at the Nationals while someone was watching her.



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post #53 of 106 (permalink) Old 12-02-2016, 07:52 PM
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We all peek into 500-character snippets other peoples' lives and judge the hell out of them, thinking that we would do "better" somehow. Thinking that we would, through our own superior morality, judgment, and infinite wisdom would do better than the person actually living their life.

It's okay! I've been there. I've done it! I've led the internet witch hunt. (I've been banned for leading the internet witch hunt.) I've often asked myself what effect I hope to have on the person who I'm communicating with. Will I change their mind? Am I picking through their posts, only truly seeing the details that will support my own argument? Do I need to look at this from another lens to try to understand where they're coming from?

I know Karen and Gretchen in person, and we've discussed this before I saw this thread. I've been able to watch Gretchen in person and see her personality and drive without the filter of social media clouding my view. She lives to work. Not just training at home, but going new places and having people watch her. She's a major snuggler (and bed hog, I almost had to sleep on the floor), but she lights up when she's in the ring and is crushed when she's left behind. Living a future of being the third, fourth, or fifth Doberman and being left at home for shows isn't a life she'd thrive in. She would exist, and she'd be well-cared for and happy, but she would be so much happier as an only dog. The family she's going to are wonderful and will take fantastic care of her and be able to focus on her 100% and do fun things with her alone. If, for some highly unlikely reason it doesn't work out, what Karen didn't mention is that I also volunteered to take Gretchen - but it's not the ideal situation for her. My entire point in saying this is to reassure you all that Gretchen will not end up homeless or unwanted, and there are backup plans in case something happens down the road. Regardless of how rude some of you have been, I hope your best interests are truly focused on Gretchen's well-being and not on an acrimonious vendetta against Karen. Gretchen is very loved, and will regularly see Karen on the future.

We can't frame this argument as "you're a hypocrite, you're selfish, you're lying, you're dumping her on someone." That's only fair if you hate Karen and want to lead an internet witch hunt, in which case, please feel free to continue - that only reflects upon you. The reality of the situation is that Karen is trying to look out for Gretchen's best interests in the long-term. Karen has plans to benefit the breed in a huge way, and that doesn't include relegating Dobermans who would be happy with all the ringtime and focus on them to the backseat. Karen would be keeping her if she couldn't find her a good home, but that would be the thing that the dog community as arbitrarily decided is ethical thing to do, not the thing to do that's good for the dog.

TL;DR: it's great to listen to the internet, especially for ear posting or makeup tutorials, but you are the one who knows Gretchen the best and will truly put her first. Sometimes we have to put the ones we love first, even over our own hearts.
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post #54 of 106 (permalink) Old 12-02-2016, 08:06 PM
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No witch hunt here. I'm simply asking questions that I've seen asked on here hundreds of times when someone comes on and states they want to rehome their dog.

Those previous threads have been much more negative, inappropriate and blame placing than this one.



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post #55 of 106 (permalink) Old 12-02-2016, 08:42 PM
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I want to comment here. I am totally miffed and upset at the lack of compassion and support that G_R (Karen ) is getting here. I've owned Dobermans fo over 40 years. I love my dogs. What that ultimately transates to is doing what it right for the dog.

I have never met a person more committed to the breed as Karen. Especially giving the relativiely short period of time that she has been involved.

Here we have an owner who truly beleieves that it is in her girls best interested to place her with a loving family, who not only can offer a great life, but still allow Karen and Mav to be part of her life. Forever....

Knowing the situation, I am certain that is is a plus for G, Karen and M, an the new familly who will love her. The IS no downside.

Folks need to lose the "gut" reaction and get a grasp on the bigger picture.

Lighten up people!

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Portland OR
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post #56 of 106 (permalink) Old 12-02-2016, 09:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Coco Loco View Post
No witch hunt here. I'm simply asking questions that I've seen asked on here hundreds of times when someone comes on and states they want to rehome their dog.

Those previous threads have been much more negative, inappropriate and blame placing than this one.
Here are some questions for you, then: When you communicate with others in this thread, what is your goal? Do you feel that you are achieving that goal? If so, how? If you do not view this thread as a witch hunt, why might others? Can you, perhaps, look at things from a slightly different perspective? You might find that re-reading your posts and ask how others might perceive your words you gain a better understanding of your intent.

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Originally Posted by Coco Loco View Post
I wish Gretchen the best future possible because all dogs deserve that and that is our responsibility to them.
Those questions are for you to answer to yourself, not to us, but my last suggestion would be to say that this is an excellent point for you to end your posting on to keep things positive, appropriate, and Gretchen-focused.
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post #57 of 106 (permalink) Old 12-02-2016, 09:35 PM
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I am fully aware of what my intent was when I was posting. I personally do not agree with this decision but in the big scheme of things to be brutally honest......it makes absolutely no difference in my life. I will sleep tonight with no issue. My conscience is clear. I understand my responsibilities in my life and ensure that I fulfill them.

I understand she is your friend and your loyalty is to her which I find admirable but I don't need your censorship or analysis as my working day is done and I'm off the clock so to speak. I responded to a thread on an Internet forum and voiced my opinion which is that I personally don't agree with this. This happens in hundreds of threads on this forum. Check the link that JobeyV posted where Karen recently responded about people not thinking about the logistics of bringing a dog into their life before they do so.

I think we will have to agree to disagree on this one. Have a great night.



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post #58 of 106 (permalink) Old 12-02-2016, 09:57 PM
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As someone who trains dogs for a living, I'd say that I don't think I've yet seen a home be happy with a dog once they've made up their minds to rehome. I will also say that I see no problem with responsible rehoming once that person's mind is made up- it is better for the dog to go than for it to stay and have both parties be unhappy with each other.

However, I have spent twice that amount of time in the breed with the same number of dogs and still would not consider myself knowledgeable enough to be rehoming dogs based on breeding decisions or to have the attitude that- because I failed to find a good person to breed with after under a year of truly looking with my dog not even quite old enough to consider for breeding, I must give up on the idea and rehome. There are plenty of people out there who will breed to a dog from a BYB if it is nice enough and proven. I've started a thread on that very same subject, if you will recall. But the big thing is that the dog must be proven. So Gretchen has not yet finished her CH and you can say all you want about points, but until she finishes she is not proven. Does she have her BH? Her WAC? High titles in OB or agility? She's not yet 2 if I'm counting correctly, so she can't be fully health tested either. Even if she is, she is young yet- many breeders with bitches they're unsure on health with will wait until the bitch is 3, 4, even 5 and still passing health tests before seriously considering a breeding. As a result I don't really blame anyone for choosing not to breed to her as she is now. The impression that's left is that you were dissatisfied over not having any interest in your poorly bred unproven bitch and want to start over.

Considering that people in this breed have a hard enough time finding good matches with proven dogs, especially as new faces in the breed, and have a harder time selling puppies- I can't really say I'm shocked you walked out of Nationals with no stud.

(Also, on the flip side, you badmouth euro dogs every chance you get even though your own puppy is part euro, and yet I know a good handful of these eeevvviiilll euro breeders who would likely consider letting you use their studs... if she is able to prove that she can work!)

I too own a dog that lives to work and who will be absolutely miserable if not allowed to do what he loves. There will come a time when I must retire him and he must stay home. It will hurt the both of us to do so- however I could never give him away to anyone when that point hits because it will hurt the both of us more to be separated. We will find a way to make it work. That was our mindset going into this, and that will be our mindset until the day when he will leave me for the rainbow bridge (hopefully not for another 10+ years).


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post #59 of 106 (permalink) Old 12-02-2016, 10:41 PM
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Quote:
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As someone who trains dogs for a living, I'd say that I don't think I've yet seen a home be happy with a dog once they've made up their minds to rehome. I will also say that I see no problem with responsible rehoming once that person's mind is made up- it is better for the dog to go than for it to stay and have both parties be unhappy with each other.

However, I have spent twice that amount of time in the breed with the same number of dogs and still would not consider myself knowledgeable enough to be rehoming dogs based on breeding decisions or to have the attitude that- because I failed to find a good person to breed with after under a year of truly looking with my dog not even quite old enough to consider for breeding, I must give up on the idea and rehome. There are plenty of people out there who will breed to a dog from a BYB if it is nice enough and proven. I've started a thread on that very same subject, if you will recall. But the big thing is that the dog must be proven. So Gretchen has not yet finished her CH and you can say all you want about points, but until she finishes she is not proven. Does she have her BH? Her WAC? High titles in OB or agility? She's not yet 2 if I'm counting correctly, so she can't be fully health tested either. Even if she is, she is young yet- many breeders with bitches they're unsure on health with will wait until the bitch is 3, 4, even 5 and still passing health tests before seriously considering a breeding. As a result I don't really blame anyone for choosing not to breed to her as she is now. The impression that's left is that you were dissatisfied over not having any interest in your poorly bred unproven bitch and want to start over.

Considering that people in this breed have a hard enough time finding good matches with proven dogs, especially as new faces in the breed, and have a harder time selling puppies- I can't really say I'm shocked you walked out of Nationals with no stud.

(Also, on the flip side, you badmouth euro dogs every chance you get even though your own puppy is part euro, and yet I know a good handful of these eeevvviiilll euro breeders who would likely consider letting you use their studs... if she is able to prove that she can work!)

I too own a dog that lives to work and who will be absolutely miserable if not allowed to do what he loves. There will come a time when I must retire him and he must stay home. It will hurt the both of us to do so- however I could never give him away to anyone when that point hits because it will hurt the both of us more to be separated. We will find a way to make it work. That was our mindset going into this, and that will be our mindset until the day when he will leave me for the rainbow bridge (hopefully not for another 10+ years).

Huh?
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post #60 of 106 (permalink) Old 12-02-2016, 10:52 PM
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Sorry I am just trying to understand, you have other dogs that you need to travel with but Gretchen you don't/can't show anymore, so she gets left with a neighbour or someone else while you travel? Can't you take her with you? Maybe you could do something else with her that isn't showing like another activity, and all dogs could get equal fair time with you?

If you have too many dogs to handle then that makes more sense, but I thought I read somewhere that you were going to get a new puppy? Why rehome Gretchen to then get a new puppy? Maybe that was someone else that said that and not you though.

Just trying to understand and get all the facts!
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post #61 of 106 (permalink) Old 12-02-2016, 11:03 PM
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Huh?
Please explain exactly what confused you and I will break my response down in simple english if that is what's required- otherwise I have no patience for the deliberately obtuse.


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post #62 of 106 (permalink) Old 12-03-2016, 04:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gretchen_Red View Post
EXCUSE ME?!?

I wasn't referring to ANYONE on this forum when I made that statement.

I'll ask again, Who were you referring to then?


I can't put my plans on hold, I'm under obligations to Mavs breeder to show and work him.
You had an obligation to Gretchen. Maybe you should have thought of that before you bit off more than you could chew.

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I have never met a person more committed to the breed as Karen.
You say that while owning Foxfire Dobermans? Blimey, I would think your breeder would be pretty miffed at a statement like that.

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post #63 of 106 (permalink) Old 12-03-2016, 06:53 AM
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It's nice to see where everyone's loyalty lies. If anyone else had posted this, the people running to her defense would have been the first to tear them down. "A dog is a lifetime commitment, you don't deserve to own a Doberman. They form bonds like no other. Blah blah blah." Rehome her if that is in her/your best interest, but learn from this and don't be so quick to judge others that feel they also have a "legitimate" excuse for getting rid of their dogs and then showing up a few weeks later with a new puppy. I wish you the best of luck and hope you are able to accomplish your ultimate goals with your new dog.
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post #64 of 106 (permalink) Old 12-03-2016, 08:08 AM
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I too am surprised (well not really, I know how this board can be) at the response....

While I'll make it very clear up front that rehoming a dog is personally not something I could see myself doing (but who knows what bridges I'll cross), I find what GR is doing to be pretty common in the breeder world. (I mean how often do we recommend people adopt OR contact a breeder about an older dog)

There are many reputable breeders (including a few I know) in all breeds who don't keep their dogs, except a special handful. They show and title them and either because they are done breeding them and/or they are not quite what expected they rehome them so they may live the rest of their lives loved to the fullest and not sitting on a back burner. Many of these breeders also love those dogs as much as GR does. How is it fair if she's decided her breeding program needs to go another direction and that Gretchen would unfortunately have to sit on the back burner in order to fulfill her obligations as a reputable breeder (showing, titling, training) elsewhere to tell her to keep her? How does Gretchen benefit from being left behind?

It's all a question of personal ethics and abilities, so of course i'm not surprised there are people who disagree. For some (like Fitzmar) they commit to having a certain number and to keeping every dog, that's her preference and her choice (based off her post prior in the thread), and for others, they commit to continuing their program and breeding and that sometimes means that you rehome older dogs, retired dogs, or those that don't fit so they get to actually be fully loved and get the attention any caring person knows a pet deserves.

It's also dependent on each dog, Gretchen sounds happy in her new home, and it's been made obvious that she wouldn't be going there if she wasn't. One of the breeders I know who rehomes retired/unshowable/etc... dogs had a sweet loving house girl who was far from her ideal for the show ring, why was she still there? Because after three tries to rehome her in what she saw as the dogs benefit the dog made it clear (not eating, mopping, etc...) that she wanted to be with them and only them so she kept her. The dogs always come first with any good breeder or person and sometimes that means not keeping them.


I guess for me it's a sore spot, because what many of you are advocating for by being unhappy with GR's choice is exactly what makes Mabel's breeders one of the worst in my eyes.
She easily has 10-15 dogs at a time, she doesn't rehome older dogs or ones who aren't what she expected, she just leaves them home in crates while her main 3-4 go to training and trials. They don't get to be in a home of their own where they get the love and affection they need but instead she's "committed herself" to keeping them and so they sit and languish... Is this every breeder? No, but I think it still helps make my point that it's not always so cut and dry.
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post #65 of 106 (permalink) Old 12-03-2016, 08:32 AM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jazi View Post
As someone who trains dogs for a living, I'd say that I don't think I've yet seen a home be happy with a dog once they've made up their minds to rehome. I will also say that I see no problem with responsible rehoming once that person's mind is made up- it is better for the dog to go than for it to stay and have both parties be unhappy with each other.

However, I have spent twice that amount of time in the breed with the same number of dogs and still would not consider myself knowledgeable enough to be rehoming dogs based on breeding decisions or to have the attitude that- because I failed to find a good person to breed with after under a year of truly looking with my dog not even quite old enough to consider for breeding, I must give up on the idea and rehome. There are plenty of people out there who will breed to a dog from a BYB if it is nice enough and proven. I've started a thread on that very same subject, if you will recall. But the big thing is that the dog must be proven. So Gretchen has not yet finished her CH and you can say all you want about points, but until she finishes she is not proven. Does she have her BH? Her WAC? High titles in OB or agility? She's not yet 2 if I'm counting correctly, so she can't be fully health tested either. Even if she is, she is young yet- many breeders with bitches they're unsure on health with will wait until the bitch is 3, 4, even 5 and still passing health tests before seriously considering a breeding. As a result I don't really blame anyone for choosing not to breed to her as she is now. The impression that's left is that you were dissatisfied over not having any interest in your poorly bred unproven bitch and want to start over.

Considering that people in this breed have a hard enough time finding good matches with proven dogs, especially as new faces in the breed, and have a harder time selling puppies- I can't really say I'm shocked you walked out of Nationals with no stud.

(Also, on the flip side, you badmouth euro dogs every chance you get even though your own puppy is part euro, and yet I know a good handful of these eeevvviiilll euro breeders who would likely consider letting you use their studs... if she is able to prove that she can work!)

I too own a dog that lives to work and who will be absolutely miserable if not allowed to do what he loves. There will come a time when I must retire him and he must stay home. It will hurt the both of us to do so- however I could never give him away to anyone when that point hits because it will hurt the both of us more to be separated. We will find a way to make it work. That was our mindset going into this, and that will be our mindset until the day when he will leave me for the rainbow bridge (hopefully not for another 10+ years).
Mav is Euro working lines, he doesn't have Altobello, Fedor, or Baron Nike Renewal in his lines.

It's not about finding a breeder for G. It's about finding the right compliment to G. I could breed to most any local male once finished. She doesn't have her WAC yet because there hasn't been one within 8 hours. I know Gretchens pedigree. And there isn't a lot of health there and I've thought about spaying before. Her father was put down at 5 for brain tumors and there's also cardio there as well, further back.

Gretchen is always welcome at my house and will be back often. She is still here and will be for a while. We are both happy that she's here and at any point if she isn't happy with her new family she will come back. This is not a done deal, see ya, don't come back.

For those asking about a puppy there isn't one out there yet, if there was, that would make no difference in keeping G or not. My plan will be to keep 3 dogs, I think that's enough and leaves me room to foster.
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post #66 of 106 (permalink) Old 12-03-2016, 09:02 AM
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...so Gretchen has always been someones tool and now she gets to be a pet. The vast majority of us here are pet owners and have a two way bond them and would find it hard to relinquish a loved one even in the most dire of situations.
If this was a breeder only forum the OP would not be receiving the grief she is getting now since this issue is common for those on this path. A wiser person on this path would not be as prolific on a internet forum.
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post #67 of 106 (permalink) Old 12-03-2016, 09:39 AM
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I'm surprised people are comparing her to a breeder. Something she is most readily not. She may want to be, she may aspire to be but the reality of it is. The dog SHE chose isn't going to work for her 'new' goals so what happens? The dog is discarded.
That is the issue. Do breeders rehome? Absolutely. Some of them do, others keep some and they live a long happy life.

This is not the issue of a breeder rehoming a potential that didn't work out. This is someone who bought from a crappy byb, had delusions of breeding said dog and when reality hit home and this dog no longer fits her goals The dog is being discarded, rehomed whatever pc terminology you want to utilize, the end result is the same. Many of the breeders I know (several different breeds) still have their first dogs. You know, the ones that didn't quite measure up. They still make time for them work and train with them, because they made a commitment to the dog they brought into their homes. It's called adulting, it's called being responsible. North America is full of unwanted pets because people view them as disposable this is just another disposable dog....


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post #68 of 106 (permalink) Old 12-03-2016, 10:30 AM
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Please explain exactly what confused you and I will break my response down in simple english if that is what's required- otherwise I have no patience for the deliberately obtuse.
LOL... One word sure upsets you!
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post #69 of 106 (permalink) Old 12-03-2016, 02:19 PM
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I've tried to see both sides of this but just can't. Ever since I joined this board it has based itself on responsible breeding and ownership.

And it baffles me that this normally holier than thou member is now dumping a dog and actually has support for it? You guys should be ashamed. If this was a new member you guys would be bashing them for not being responsible, never should have purchased the dog, selfish, blah,blah.

It's great that the dog will have a new home but what if you didn't have this friend? Would she have found herself at a shelter? Maybe Craigslist?

You made a commitment and now your being selfish. Sugarcoat it anyway you'd like. The responsible thing to do would be to stay with Gretchen and put your aspiring breeding practices on hold until you fulfilled your duty to her for her entire life.

And how many times have people been lectured about the cost of these dogs on here to prospective owners? You mentioned the cost and not being as fortunate. Any other poster on here would be burned and told maybe the breeds not for them if the money is an issue. So I'll tell you maybe all of this isn't for you until you are stable enough to own both a show/breeding dog and just your average dog that you are throwing away.

No doubt in my mind that you love your girl and are a great owner but this is a selfish decision based on you, not her. The question I keep coming back to is where would this dog have went if you didn't know that family? This goes against everything DT stand for.
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post #70 of 106 (permalink) Old 12-03-2016, 02:53 PM
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Originally Posted by Sam1491 View Post
I too am surprised (well not really, I know how this board can be) at the response....

While I'll make it very clear up front that rehoming a dog is personally not something I could see myself doing (but who knows what bridges I'll cross), I find what GR is doing to be pretty common in the breeder world. (I mean how often do we recommend people adopt OR contact a breeder about an older dog)

There are many reputable breeders (including a few I know) in all breeds who don't keep their dogs, except a special handful. They show and title them and either because they are done breeding them and/or they are not quite what expected they rehome them so they may live the rest of their lives loved to the fullest and not sitting on a back burner. Many of these breeders also love those dogs as much as GR does. How is it fair if she's decided her breeding program needs to go another direction and that Gretchen would unfortunately have to sit on the back burner in order to fulfill her obligations as a reputable breeder (showing, titling, training) elsewhere to tell her to keep her? How does Gretchen benefit from being left behind?

It's all a question of personal ethics and abilities, so of course i'm not surprised there are people who disagree. For some (like Fitzmar) they commit to having a certain number and to keeping every dog, that's her preference and her choice (based off her post prior in the thread), and for others, they commit to continuing their program and breeding and that sometimes means that you rehome older dogs, retired dogs, or those that don't fit so they get to actually be fully loved and get the attention any caring person knows a pet deserves.

It's also dependent on each dog, Gretchen sounds happy in her new home, and it's been made obvious that she wouldn't be going there if she wasn't. One of the breeders I know who rehomes retired/unshowable/etc... dogs had a sweet loving house girl who was far from her ideal for the show ring, why was she still there? Because after three tries to rehome her in what she saw as the dogs benefit the dog made it clear (not eating, mopping, etc...) that she wanted to be with them and only them so she kept her. The dogs always come first with any good breeder or person and sometimes that means not keeping them.


I guess for me it's a sore spot, because what many of you are advocating for by being unhappy with GR's choice is exactly what makes Mabel's breeders one of the worst in my eyes.
She easily has 10-15 dogs at a time, she doesn't rehome older dogs or ones who aren't what she expected, she just leaves them home in crates while her main 3-4 go to training and trials. They don't get to be in a home of their own where they get the love and affection they need but instead she's "committed herself" to keeping them and so they sit and languish... Is this every breeder? No, but I think it still helps make my point that it's not always so cut and dry.
Very well put. It isn't about keeping every dog you accept responsibility for. It is doing the very best by every dog in your care through love, training, vet care, etc.

Rehoming a dog because you know it isn't fair to leave her behind is legit. I have a dog, who was a rescue, with so much anxiety that taking him many places overwhelms him so badly it is torturous. While we have worked with him throughout his life and have made strides, he will never do well out in new places. Does his anxiety and deep need to be with us constantly mean that the only right thing to would be to make our other more active dog stay home with us and him? How would that be fair to her? Sometimes we have left him, sometimes she didn't get the stimulation she deserved. It brakes my heart every time I have to decide for one at the detriment to the other. I certainly didn't look to have this combination, he is a lab mix who (according to the shelter I got him from) was suppose to be a good fit with our active dobe. Should every person only own one dog to cater to its every need? If I could have found a person he loved who was a lonely homebody who would be with him at home almost constantly, then I would have rehomed him in a heartbeat. No such home exists and so I have done the best I can with him while balancing his needs with those of others.

If Gretchen has a wonderful home to look forward to where she will get the individual attention she deserves and will fit right in precisely because Karen has given her so much care how is her being in that home wrong? Would I feel differently if she just dropped her off at the local rescue? Hell yes. But that isn't what she says she is doing, what she said she is doing would be doing right by Gretchen. How is that wrong?

I do understand how people look at the situation and look at their own dog and think "I couldn't imagine getting rid of Fido, that would be awful! How could she? What a monster!" Step outside your own shoes for a minute (and excuse me, but get off your high horse and have some compassion). It is probably easy for you because your dog is, by in large, a good fit for your family. Count yourself lucky. From what she has said and shown to others is that she is taking care of her dog whether in her own home or another. Her decision is just that, hers. She isn't getting rid of her because the dog is sick and she doesn't want to spend the money or care for her in sickness. She wants Gretchen to be happy. Who are you to say the Gretchen would be happier left behind on every trip or being stuck in a van all day while Karen's other dogs are at an event?

Don't we think it is wonderful when people take dogs in as fosters and train them and care for them and teach them to be good dogs so they fit into a forever home when one is found? How is this different? Why don't we call those people terrible for not keeping these dogs who have grown to love and trust them?

I won't say Karen's actual decision is right or wrong, I don't actually know her or all of the details, I'm not standing in her shoes. So I won't judge her, but I will say that as it is stated and as it appears that she is trying to think of how her dog would be happiest and I can certainly stand by that. If you feel that something isn't right, don't accuse and judge - ask, offer alternative ideas. Maybe you have insight about how she could make it work that she hasn't thought of. We aren't a judge and jury here, we are a community of people who are reaching out to others for advice, insight, and sharing. She posted this decision likely both to be honest and to share a difficult decision. I applaud her for her honesty.
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post #71 of 106 (permalink) Old 12-03-2016, 03:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Busytown View Post
Very well put. It isn't about keeping every dog you accept responsibility for. It is doing the very best by every dog in your care through love, training, vet care, etc.

Rehoming a dog because you know it isn't fair to leave her behind is legit. I have a dog, who was a rescue, with so much anxiety that taking him many places overwhelms him so badly it is torturous. While we have worked with him throughout his life and have made strides, he will never do well out in new places. Does his anxiety and deep need to be with us constantly mean that the only right thing to would be to make our other more active dog stay home with us and him? How would that be fair to her? Sometimes we have left him, sometimes she didn't get the stimulation she deserved. It brakes my heart every time I have to decide for one at the detriment to the other. I certainly didn't look to have this combination, he is a lab mix who (according to the shelter I got him from) was suppose to be a good fit with our active dobe. Should every person only own one dog to cater to its every need? If I could have found a person he loved who was a lonely homebody who would be with him at home almost constantly, then I would have rehomed him in a heartbeat. No such home exists and so I have done the best I can with him while balancing his needs with those of others.

If Gretchen has a wonderful home to look forward to where she will get the individual attention she deserves and will fit right in precisely because Karen has given her so much care how is her being in that home wrong? Would I feel differently if she just dropped her off at the local rescue? Hell yes. But that isn't what she says she is doing, what she said she is doing would be doing right by Gretchen. How is that wrong?

I do understand how people look at the situation and look at their own dog and think "I couldn't imagine getting rid of Fido, that would be awful! How could she? What a monster!" Step outside your own shoes for a minute (and excuse me, but get off your high horse and have some compassion). It is probably easy for you because your dog is, by in large, a good fit for your family. Count yourself lucky. From what she has said and shown to others is that she is taking care of her dog whether in her own home or another. Her decision is just that, hers. She isn't getting rid of her because the dog is sick and she doesn't want to spend the money or care for her in sickness. She wants Gretchen to be happy. Who are you to say the Gretchen would be happier left behind on every trip or being stuck in a van all day while Karen's other dogs are at an event?

Don't we think it is wonderful when people take dogs in as fosters and train them and care for them and teach them to be good dogs so they fit into a forever home when one is found? How is this different? Why don't we call those people terrible for not keeping these dogs who have grown to love and trust them?

I won't say Karen's actual decision is right or wrong, I don't actually know her or all of the details, I'm not standing in her shoes. So I won't judge her, but I will say that as it is stated and as it appears that she is trying to think of how her dog would be happiest and I can certainly stand by that. If you feel that something isn't right, don't accuse and judge - ask, offer alternative ideas. Maybe you have insight about how she could make it work that she hasn't thought of. We aren't a judge and jury here, we are a community of people who are reaching out to others for advice, insight, and sharing. She posted this decision likely both to be honest and to share a difficult decision. I applaud her for her honesty.
Leaving your dog behind because it has temperament issues is a lot different than leaving the dog you purchased first, as a pet, behind because you got into the world of showing successfully with your new puppy. To spin the situation and say it's selfish to want to keep her because you recently decided you don't have the time for her is incredibly hypocritical. What's selfish is a second dog taking precedence over the first simply because one is a pet and one is a show puppy.

Myself and other members have made suggestions about how to make it work to fulfill the needs of BOTH dogs, keeping one as a pet and showing the other. The problem is know it alls don't listen to reasonable advice or plan on their own from the beginning. Just look at the past ones who did the same- BIB, Amanda, Mommyblaze, etc. It's all about convenience not being a responsible pet owner.
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post #72 of 106 (permalink) Old 12-03-2016, 04:55 PM
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I think what needed to be said has already been said (by some, the rest honestly surprised me with their responses given past situations similar to this one) but...wow.



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post #73 of 106 (permalink) Old 12-03-2016, 06:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 4x4bike ped View Post
LOL... One word sure upsets you!
Thank you for confirming that you were not confused by my post and thus your response amounted simply to spam, as does this one.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gretchen_Red View Post
Mav is Euro working lines, he doesn't have Altobello, Fedor, or Baron Nike Renewal in his lines.

It's not about finding a breeder for G. It's about finding the right compliment to G. I could breed to most any local male once finished. She doesn't have her WAC yet because there hasn't been one within 8 hours. I know Gretchens pedigree. And there isn't a lot of health there and I've thought about spaying before. Her father was put down at 5 for brain tumors and there's also cardio there as well, further back.

Gretchen is always welcome at my house and will be back often. She is still here and will be for a while. We are both happy that she's here and at any point if she isn't happy with her new family she will come back. This is not a done deal, see ya, don't come back.

For those asking about a puppy there isn't one out there yet, if there was, that would make no difference in keeping G or not. My plan will be to keep 3 dogs, I think that's enough and leaves me room to foster.
You may want to review Mav's lines again- his dam is mostly euro show lines and not true euro working lines, as evidenced by the Royal Bell, Wantij, and del Citone dogs in her pedigree. I am not saying this is bad- my dog has many of the same dogs in his pedigree (as he is mostly euro show himself with a little bit of euro work) and I cannot run out of good things to say about my experience with Mav's breeder- but I am saying that Mav is not half euro working lines by a large amount. Just because he does not have any of those particular names in his pedigree does not mean he does not have concerning dogs- Gino Gomez (who is also in my dog's pedigree) is another popular euro show sire that is blamed by many for the spread of DCM and is fairly close in Mav's line. Not to say that AmShow lines don't have their own popular sires with DCM either- just that it seems you only focus on euro dogs that carry it without acknowledging that both show lines in this country their own popular sires and DCM riddled pedigrees.

Again, if Gretchen were finished and proven, those avenues would likely be much more available to you. She has 7 points, some rally titles, and a BN. None of this would interest the majority of ethical breeders, especially not in a byb produced bitch with unknown or poor health in her pedigree. She is young, now that I've confirmed her age to be just a month younger than my dog, and it seems her health testing is not finished. Just seems a bit like you're jumping the gun on this whole breeding Gretchen thing and when you didn't get the answer you wanted, you decided to abandon the whole idea and rehome her for not being breeding material.

Again, I have no problem with responsible rehoming once a decision is made to not keep the dog and it certainly appears that you have gone down this avenue- that is not where my problem is. My problem is that it seems you are rushing things with a young dog that may or may not turn out the way you want her to within the next 1-3 years and decided instead of keeping on with this perfect dog, you are just going to walk away at the first sign of hardship. I'm sure any of the more recent new breeders in this breed can tell you that finding a good male and selling puppies were some of the hardest parts of their first breeding, but that's what mentorships are for.

Speaking of- why can't any of these names you drop help you find a nice male? Surely some strings can be pulled and they could vouch for the two of you to a friend. Is there something else up with Gretchen perhaps that makes them believe she is not breeding quality, that made them encourage you to spay her instead of breed?
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post #74 of 106 (permalink) Old 12-03-2016, 07:41 PM
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@Jazi Well... I Love P/A posts as much as the next person and you rock! Still I say its time we gave this thread a rest. BTW.... J. I dislike few things in life, but being patronized is a pet peeve of mine. Dispararge me all you wish. No problem. I certainly have never denigrated you on DT. But the child-like rebuke is ridicuous. Should you ever care to go head to head with me on any topic. At any time. Please feel free to interact. Privately and off forum. I am an open book, unlike most folks on internet forums.
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Sorry mods... delete this post if you feel it is needed.

Personally, I feel this thread should be closed
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post #75 of 106 (permalink) Old 12-03-2016, 07:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by greenkouki View Post
Leaving your dog behind because it has temperament issues is a lot different than leaving the dog you purchased first, as a pet, behind because you got into the world of showing successfully with your new puppy. To spin the situation and say it's selfish to want to keep her because you recently decided you don't have the time for her is incredibly hypocritical. What's selfish is a second dog taking precedence over the first simply because one is a pet and one is a show puppy.

Myself and other members have made suggestions about how to make it work to fulfill the needs of BOTH dogs, keeping one as a pet and showing the other. The problem is know it alls don't listen to reasonable advice or plan on their own from the beginning. Just look at the past ones who did the same- BIB, Amanda, Mommyblaze, etc. It's all about convenience not being a responsible pet owner.
While I agree your concern of convenience is a very reasonable one, I still don't see why declaring judgement about it is to anyone's benefit. And those who jump straight to judgement is of no benefit at all. Thoughtfully asked and carefully discussed options laid out certainly show your opinion on the matter in a more constructive way.

As someone that is relatively new to these forums I have already seen how troll like and judgemental people tend to be when hiding behind anonymity. It would be a much more pleasant way to learn more about such an amazing breed if there weren't so many who post simply to lambast someone.

Her decision is one I have followed and worry about too. Like I stated, I don't really know her and a dog who needs rehoming is a tough situation. What I find interesting is, if people think so poorly of her, why do they assume that the dog is best with her? "You must be a terribly owner - the dog should stay with you!" That seems illogical to me.

It puts out in the open a difficult situation of rehoming a dog you love. There are many more who lurk this site looking for information. Others may look to this post with a rehoming need, read this, or another recent post, and not ask a question and get potentially helpful advice because they don't speak up for fear of being attacked. If I needed to rehome my dog with a totally different issue, after reading this post hell would freeze over before asking reasonable questions like "How do I know if it is a good home?" or "What resources are out there?"

I also wanted to point out that she isn't casting the dog aside, but rather making sure that it is at good place. Rehoming happens, whatever the reason. It is a key point that she is finding a good home, perhaps better than her own situation. That is what I hope anyone who is considering rehoming for any reason would do.
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