Facial structure - Doberman Forum : Doberman Breed Dog Forums
Doberman Related Chat If your post does not fit into any other category post here.

 6Likes
  • 1 Post By greenkouki
  • 3 Post By Fitzmar Dobermans
  • 1 Post By Kansadobe
  • 1 Post By Kansadobe
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
post #1 of 24 (permalink) Old 11-06-2016, 01:35 AM Thread Starter
JIK
Big Pup
 
Join Date: Oct 2016
Posts: 24
Dogs Name: Tell us your dogs name

Gallery Pics: 0
Visit JIK's Gallery
Thanks: 6
Thanked 15 Times in 11 Posts
 
Facial structure

I have noticed that the Doberman breed has quite a bit of variance in facial structure. Some have a very squared off face where the forehead transition to the snout makes almost a 90 degree angle. Others are very elongated and the snout seems to transition smoothly into the forehead.

I've seen both "styles" named champions at shows so I'm assuming one is not better than the other.

My questions are; is there a term used to differentiate between the two like Euro vs American? And is there a strong genetic influence to this feature? For example, if the Sir is squared off and the Dam slender, does one dominate over the other or do they blend?
JIK is offline  
The Following User Says Thank You to JIK For This Useful Post:
Darkevs (11-06-2016)
Advertisement
 
post #2 of 24 (permalink) Old 11-06-2016, 08:51 AM
Lil Pup
 
Join Date: Nov 2016
Posts: 2
Dogs Name: Tell us your dogs name

Gallery Pics: 0
Visit mbuerkley's Gallery
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
 
Yes, you are exactly right. The Euro is more squared, the American is more slender. The idea is that when the doberman breed was brought to the states they were bread with greyhounds causing the facial features and body size to resemble more of a Greyhound then traditional doberman. There also is an idea that the same dobermans were bread with Great Danes later to help square out the faces and increase size. I personally wanted a doberman with a fierce square face so I made sure that the breeder had lineage that includes roots from European dogs (my dog's grandfather is still in Hungary).
mbuerkley is offline  
post #3 of 24 (permalink) Old 11-06-2016, 09:47 AM
Alpha
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 7,359

Gallery Pics: 0
Visit dobebug's Gallery
Thanks: 10,833
Thanked 20,116 Times in 5,540 Posts
                     
There is quite a variation in head detail in Dobes. I think what you are talking about specifically is the "stop"--the transition from muzzle to topskull.

Reread the AKC standard--specifically the section on the head. A Dobe should have only "slight" stop.

Contrast this with the description of the AKC standard for the head of a Great Dane which specifies "a strongly pronounced stop".

Some dogs (or bitches) will produce a type of head--some don't. Genetics basically doesn't "blend"--ie if you breed a long bitch to a compact male--what you get is not generally square puppies but some long and some compact.

Read the standard--the head description is pretty specific---pronounced stops are not preferred but you have to take into consideration the entire dog--a good head isn't the only thing to consider.
dobebug is offline  
The Following 13 Users Say Thank You to dobebug For This Useful Post:
4x4bike ped (11-06-2016), Beaumont67 (11-06-2016), bigfootlives (11-06-2016), Cressrb (11-06-2016), Darkevs (11-06-2016), falnfenix (11-07-2016), greenkouki (11-06-2016), Gretchen_Red (11-06-2016), kmbeach22 (11-07-2016), MeadowCat (11-06-2016), melbrod (11-06-2016), Rosemary (11-06-2016), vivienne00 (11-07-2016)
Advertisement
 
post #4 of 24 (permalink) Old 11-06-2016, 10:34 AM
Super Moderator
 
greenkouki's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 14,771
Location: SC

Gallery Pics: 77
Visit greenkouki's Gallery
Thanks: 19,518
Thanked 30,063 Times in 9,748 Posts
Images: 77
                     
Click here to find out how greenkouki became a supporter
Quote:
Originally Posted by mbuerkley View Post
Yes, you are exactly right. The Euro is more squared, the American is more slender. The idea is that when the doberman breed was brought to the states they were bread with greyhounds causing the facial features and body size to resemble more of a Greyhound then traditional doberman. There also is an idea that the same dobermans were bread with Great Danes later to help square out the faces and increase size. I personally wanted a doberman with a fierce square face so I made sure that the breeder had lineage that includes roots from European dogs (my dog's grandfather is still in Hungary).
Breed history does not back up this claim at all.
Kansadobe likes this.
greenkouki is online now  
The Following 13 Users Say Thank You to greenkouki For This Useful Post:
4x4bike ped (11-06-2016), bigfootlives (11-06-2016), Cressrb (11-06-2016), dobebug (11-06-2016), falnfenix (11-07-2016), Gretchen_Red (11-06-2016), Kansadobe (11-07-2016), MeadowCat (11-07-2016), melbrod (11-06-2016), nikil2 (11-07-2016), Pompuschk (11-07-2016), Strife (11-15-2016), vivienne00 (11-07-2016)
post #5 of 24 (permalink) Old 11-06-2016, 02:32 PM
Alpha
 
Fitzmar Dobermans's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 7,812
Location: S. E. Pennsylvania
Dogs Name: Harvard, Jezebel, & Mabel
Titles: AKC CH & GrCh, RN, CGC & CGCA
Dogs Age: 12/20/07, 2/26/12, and 2/26/18
Gallery Pics: 13
Visit Fitzmar Dobermans's Gallery
Thanks: 3,712
Thanked 18,823 Times in 4,168 Posts
Images: 13
                     
Click here to find out how Fitzmar Dobermans became a supporter
Quote:
Originally Posted by mbuerkley View Post
Yes, you are exactly right. The Euro is more squared, the American is more slender. The idea is that when the doberman breed was brought to the states they were bread with greyhounds causing the facial features and body size to resemble more of a Greyhound then traditional doberman. There also is an idea that the same dobermans were bread with Great Danes later to help square out the faces and increase size. I personally wanted a doberman with a fierce square face so I made sure that the breeder had lineage that includes roots from European dogs (my dog's grandfather is still in Hungary).
None of this is true. It always amazes me what people come up with ... and then other people read it and think it is true. While it is true that a black greyhound might have been used in the later development of the breed, this was done long before the first Doberman was imported to the USA. There are people who have crossed Dobermans with Danes, but the result is not a Doberman - it is a mutt.

Head size and shape varies with lineage and males have a larger more doggie head as a general rule. The written standard has a description of the ideal head, but as with most things, the perfect head is the ideal and the reality varies quite a bit. Many of the European Dobermans stray quite a bit from the ideal also - as they are sometimes course and lippy.... which is no more correct than too slender and fine. There is also a difference in how American show dogs and European show dogs are photographed. American dogs are photographed with a closed mouth, and European show dogs are photographed with an open panting mouth - you might be amazed at how these differences change the appearance of the same dog.



These pictures are of the same dog at approximately the same age.

Mary Jo Ansel
Fitzmar


AKC GRCH/UKC CH Fitzmar's Command A Minute CGC "Harvard"
Fitzmar's Victory Hop Devil RN CGC "Jezebel"
Jalyn One Moment Please "Mabel"
RIP CH. Cha-Rish A Moment Like This RN WAC CGC "Louise" 2/22/2005 - 4/1/2016

Last edited by Fitzmar Dobermans; 11-06-2016 at 02:35 PM. Reason: fixed picture
Fitzmar Dobermans is offline  
The Following 10 Users Say Thank You to Fitzmar Dobermans For This Useful Post:
Beaumont67 (11-06-2016), bigfootlives (11-06-2016), dobebug (11-06-2016), Dobe_Mom (11-06-2016), falnfenix (11-07-2016), greenkouki (11-06-2016), melbrod (11-06-2016), nikil2 (11-07-2016), Rosemary (11-06-2016), vivienne00 (11-07-2016)
post #6 of 24 (permalink) Old 11-06-2016, 03:27 PM
Big Lil pup
 
4x4bike ped's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2015
Posts: 5,371
Location: Portland, OR
Dogs Name: Foxfire's The Real McCoy (McCoy)
Titles: Pet of the Year
Dogs Age: DOB 9/12/14
Gallery Pics: 9
Visit 4x4bike ped's Gallery
Thanks: 13,350
Thanked 11,871 Times in 4,315 Posts
Images: 9
                     
Thanks Fitzmar.... The comparison photos were awesome>>>>> (One photo is worth 1000 words, as they say!)

John
Portland OR
4x4bike ped is offline  
The Following User Says Thank You to 4x4bike ped For This Useful Post:
bigfootlives (11-06-2016)
post #7 of 24 (permalink) Old 11-06-2016, 03:27 PM
Owned by Dobes since 1975
 
Darkevs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 30,675
Location: BC, Canada!
Dogs Name: Charlie & Naughty Dottie!
Titles: BDIH & BND
Dogs Age: 7 3/4 & 3
Gallery Pics: 46
Visit Darkevs's Gallery
Thanks: 86,447
Thanked 50,156 Times in 19,284 Posts
Images: 46
                     
parts and pieces of head types are either dominant or recessive traits, it is why there are so many variations in head types in any breed. so breeding a heavy skulled dog to a longer finer head will give you many variations.

FROM PEAS TO PUPS


Genetically DOMINANT and RECESSIVE Traits In The Dog
Does not include disease, coat color or abnormal factors


DOMINANT
TRAITS
HEAD
Low set ears
Long ears
Long head
Wide ear leather
Dewlap
Dark eye
Correct bite
Black nose
Short face

BODY
Sternum
Deep chest
Straight top line
Straight tail
High tail set
Good spring of rib
Heavy bone
Achondroplastic
short leg with crook (correlates with big bone)
Compact foot
Short coat
Weight
Body height
Poor shoulder angulation
Poor stifle angulation
Short, choppy gait
MENTAL
Intelligence
Shy and/or vicious
temperament

RECESSIVE
TRAITS
HEAD
Pronounced parietal crest and occiput
Large skull size
Short ears
Fine skull
Light eye
Bulging eye
Overshot/Undershot Bite

BODY
Good shoulder angulation
Good stifle angulation
Long, reaching gait
Low tail set
No feathering on tail
Kinked tail
Long coat
Longer, straight leg (correlates with light bone)
MENTAL
Mild, non-aggressive
temperament
Lack of intelligence

Last edited by melbrod; 11-06-2016 at 07:23 PM.
Darkevs is offline  
The Following 9 Users Say Thank You to Darkevs For This Useful Post:
4x4bike ped (11-06-2016), Beaumont67 (11-06-2016), Cressrb (11-06-2016), falnfenix (11-07-2016), greenkouki (11-06-2016), Gretchen_Red (11-06-2016), melbrod (11-06-2016), Rosemary (11-06-2016), vivienne00 (11-07-2016)
post #8 of 24 (permalink) Old 11-06-2016, 04:05 PM Thread Starter
JIK
Big Pup
 
Join Date: Oct 2016
Posts: 24
Dogs Name: Tell us your dogs name

Gallery Pics: 0
Visit JIK's Gallery
Thanks: 6
Thanked 15 Times in 11 Posts
 
Thanks for the replies everyone. Very informative and exactly what I was looking for.

I should have probably named this head or cranial structure and not facial. But it was late and luckily you guys understood.

Thanks again for the great replies
JIK is offline  
post #9 of 24 (permalink) Old 11-06-2016, 04:31 PM
Alpha
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 7,359

Gallery Pics: 0
Visit dobebug's Gallery
Thanks: 10,833
Thanked 20,116 Times in 5,540 Posts
                     
Quote:
Originally Posted by mbuerkley View Post
Yes, you are exactly right. The Euro is more squared, the American is more slender. The idea is that when the doberman breed was brought to the states they were bread with greyhounds causing the facial features and body size to resemble more of a Greyhound then traditional doberman. There also is an idea that the same dobermans were bread with Great Danes later to help square out the faces and increase size. I personally wanted a doberman with a fierce square face so I made sure that the breeder had lineage that includes roots from European dogs (my dog's grandfather is still in Hungary).
Hate to tell you this but you need to find some better history sources on the Doberman than those you are presently relying on.

Just for openers the only "known" (that is to say--historically recorded cross to a Greyhound was to a black greyhound bitch and it was in Germany before the breed made its' first appearance in the US. Actually I believe that cross also predates the German Dobermans first accepted standard

One of the "possible" ancestoral breeds for the Doberman was the "Butchers" dog, a general purpose utility farm and carting dog--the same dog is probably also a progenitor breed of todays Rottweiler which has a heavier head and deeper stop--that is a much more likely explanation than the german Dobermann was cross with Great Danes.

You really need to read the German standard on the ideal head--you'll find it doesn't differ much from the AKC standard
dobebug is offline  
The Following 8 Users Say Thank You to dobebug For This Useful Post:
4x4bike ped (11-06-2016), Beaumont67 (11-06-2016), Cressrb (11-06-2016), Gretchen_Red (11-06-2016), Kansadobe (11-07-2016), MeadowCat (11-07-2016), Rosemary (11-06-2016), vivienne00 (11-07-2016)
post #10 of 24 (permalink) Old 11-06-2016, 05:13 PM
Alpha schmalpha
 
alan j.'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 3,023
Location: Florida

Gallery Pics: 1
Visit alan j.'s Gallery
Thanks: 6,102
Thanked 7,077 Times in 2,384 Posts
Images: 1
                     
That was good info...i guess thats why they call it a show from your pic comparison.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Fitzmar Dobermans View Post
None of this is true. It always amazes me what people come up with ... and then other people read it and think it is true. While it is true that a black greyhound might have been used in the later development of the breed, this was done long before the first Doberman was imported to the USA. There are people who have crossed Dobermans with Danes, but the result is not a Doberman - it is a mutt.

Head size and shape varies with lineage and males have a larger more doggie head as a general rule. The written standard has a description of the ideal head, but as with most things, the perfect head is the ideal and the reality varies quite a bit. Many of the European Dobermans stray quite a bit from the ideal also - as they are sometimes course and lippy.... which is no more correct than too slender and fine. There is also a difference in how American show dogs and European show dogs are photographed. American dogs are photographed with a closed mouth, and European show dogs are photographed with an open panting mouth - you might be amazed at how these differences change the appearance of the same dog.



These pictures are of the same dog at approximately the same age.
alan j. is offline  
post #11 of 24 (permalink) Old 11-06-2016, 07:24 PM
Eschew Prolixity
 
melbrod's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 20,893
Location: Colorado
Dogs Name: Ori AKA Harold DogDog (Hairy Dog), RIP Caesar, Katana, Kip, Capri
Titles: DogDog Mouthe Extraordinaire; Kip Mr. Behavior; Capri Mis-Behavior
Dogs Age: DogDog 2 yrs?; RIP Kip 11 yrs; Capri 7 yrs; Katana 9 yrs; Caesar 13 yrs
Gallery Pics: 6
Visit melbrod's Gallery
Thanks: 59,901
Thanked 51,329 Times in 16,734 Posts
Images: 6
                     
Click here to find out how melbrod became a supporter
Darkevs--fascinating stuff. Thanks!!
melbrod is offline  
The Following User Says Thank You to melbrod For This Useful Post:
Darkevs (11-06-2016)
post #12 of 24 (permalink) Old 11-07-2016, 08:08 AM
Alpha
 
Kansadobe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 1,895
Location: Kansas USA
Dogs Name: Breeder for over 40 Years
Titles: Bred 40+ AKC Champions, Top 20 Conformation and Obedience Contenders, and SCH Titled

Gallery Pics: 15
Visit Kansadobe's Gallery
Thanks: 2,483
Thanked 9,998 Times in 1,509 Posts
Images: 15
                     
The ears up or down change the look as much or more than having the mouth open or closed.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Fitzmar Dobermans View Post
None of this is true. It always amazes me what people come up with ... and then other people read it and think it is true. While it is true that a black greyhound might have been used in the later development of the breed, this was done long before the first Doberman was imported to the USA. There are people who have crossed Dobermans with Danes, but the result is not a Doberman - it is a mutt.

Head size and shape varies with lineage and males have a larger more doggie head as a general rule. The written standard has a description of the ideal head, but as with most things, the perfect head is the ideal and the reality varies quite a bit. Many of the European Dobermans stray quite a bit from the ideal also - as they are sometimes course and lippy.... which is no more correct than too slender and fine. There is also a difference in how American show dogs and European show dogs are photographed. American dogs are photographed with a closed mouth, and European show dogs are photographed with an open panting mouth - you might be amazed at how these differences change the appearance of the same dog.



These pictures are of the same dog at approximately the same age.

Kansadobe is offline  
The Following User Says Thank You to Kansadobe For This Useful Post:
melbrod (11-07-2016)
post #13 of 24 (permalink) Old 11-07-2016, 08:10 AM
Alpha
 
Kansadobe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 1,895
Location: Kansas USA
Dogs Name: Breeder for over 40 Years
Titles: Bred 40+ AKC Champions, Top 20 Conformation and Obedience Contenders, and SCH Titled

Gallery Pics: 15
Visit Kansadobe's Gallery
Thanks: 2,483
Thanked 9,998 Times in 1,509 Posts
Images: 15
                     
These may be good basic principles but, even if the author is a PHD, I do not believe that she has any scientific data to back up these specific categories for dominant and recessive structural traits. I have read extensively on canine genetics myself and nobody I have ever read has suggested such simplistic categorization of dominant and recessive traits. I would take this with a grain of salt.

If you are interested in a good book, Genetics of The Dog by Malcolm Willis is one of the best.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Darkevs View Post
parts and pieces of head types are either dominant or recessive traits, it is why there are so many variations in head types in any breed. so breeding a heavy skulled dog to a longer finer head will give you many variations.

FROM PEAS TO PUPS


Genetically DOMINANT and RECESSIVE Traits In The Dog
Does not include disease, coat color or abnormal factors


DOMINANT
TRAITS
HEAD
Low set ears
Long ears
Long head
Wide ear leather
Dewlap
Dark eye
Correct bite
Black nose
Short face

BODY
Sternum
Deep chest
Straight top line
Straight tail
High tail set
Good spring of rib
Heavy bone
Achondroplastic
short leg with crook (correlates with big bone)
Compact foot
Short coat
Weight
Body height
Poor shoulder angulation
Poor stifle angulation
Short, choppy gait
MENTAL
Intelligence
Shy and/or vicious
temperament

RECESSIVE
TRAITS
HEAD
Pronounced parietal crest and occiput
Large skull size
Short ears
Fine skull
Light eye
Bulging eye
Overshot/Undershot Bite

BODY
Good shoulder angulation
Good stifle angulation
Long, reaching gait
Low tail set
No feathering on tail
Kinked tail
Long coat
Longer, straight leg (correlates with light bone)
MENTAL
Mild, non-aggressive
temperament
Lack of intelligence
dobebug likes this.


Last edited by Kansadobe; 11-07-2016 at 08:36 AM.
Kansadobe is offline  
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Kansadobe For This Useful Post:
dobebug (11-07-2016), melbrod (11-07-2016)
post #14 of 24 (permalink) Old 11-07-2016, 08:20 AM
Alpha
 
Cressrb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 2,498
Location: Utah
Dogs Name: Irongates East of the Sunrise, aka 'Jada' CGC, WAC, GrCh. Cha-Rish Mine To Imagine, WAC
Titles: CGC, CH. WAC GCH
Dogs Age: DOB:5/21/12, 1/26/15
Gallery Pics: 0
Visit Cressrb's Gallery
Thanks: 8,826
Thanked 5,167 Times in 1,899 Posts
                     
Click here to find out how Cressrb became a supporter
Love discussions like this.

"Lots of people talk to animals...Not very many listen, though...That's the problem. " ~ The Tao of Pooh
Cressrb is offline  
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Cressrb For This Useful Post:
4x4bike ped (11-07-2016), Darkevs (11-07-2016)
post #15 of 24 (permalink) Old 11-07-2016, 09:00 AM
Got mutt?
 
Rosemary's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 12,922
Location: Southeast Texas
Dogs Name: Leo (GSD); Lily (APBT)
Titles: They do, and are working on more
Dogs Age: Leo 6; Lily 4; Ilka 2009-2017; Lucky 2000-2014
Gallery Pics: 0
Visit Rosemary's Gallery
Thanks: 38,353
Thanked 30,409 Times in 10,168 Posts
                     
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kansadobe View Post
The ears up or down change the look as much or more than having the mouth open or closed.
Here's a comparison with ears up in both. I tried to get them as close to the same angle as possible.

Mouth closed.
2016-8-13 Ilka & Leo DSC_0240 by Rosemary Elwell, on Flickr

2016-5-30 Dogs & Yard DSC_0189 by Rosemary Elwell, on Flickr

Mouth open.
2016-8-12 Ilka ATD certificate DSC_0238 by Rosemary Elwell, on Flickr

2016-8-12 Ilka ATD certificate DSC_0226 by Rosemary Elwell, on Flickr


~~~The Current Hellhounds~~~
Lily Dale- A Melody Unchained ETD PKD-T ADP-L5/CH ADP-L1(Pr)/L2(Pr) GPS-BST
CA Speed Queen Leontine Von Washateria ETD D-CRO-Preliminary PKD-N PKD-T S-ADP-L5/CH S-ADP-L1(Pr)/L2(Pr) GPS-BST
~~~Requiescat In Pace~~~
Ilka Of Pear Orchard Cemetery BN RE CA CGC TKP ETD CRO-1 D-CRO-Preliminary NCO-1 PKD-T S-ADP-L4 ~2009-2017~
Lucky Rat Dog CGC ~2000-2014~
“Dance as if no one who is qualified to commit you is watching!” Julie Flanery, Founder of Rally FrEe
Rosemary is offline  
The Following User Says Thank You to Rosemary For This Useful Post:
melbrod (11-07-2016)
post #16 of 24 (permalink) Old 11-07-2016, 11:33 AM
Owned by Dobes since 1975
 
Darkevs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 30,675
Location: BC, Canada!
Dogs Name: Charlie & Naughty Dottie!
Titles: BDIH & BND
Dogs Age: 7 3/4 & 3
Gallery Pics: 46
Visit Darkevs's Gallery
Thanks: 86,447
Thanked 50,156 Times in 19,284 Posts
Images: 46
                     
I have not read the book by Willis but in the link I provided it says........ "Figure 2 lists those dominant and recessive traits agreed upon by a majority of geneticists and breeders (Willis, 1989; Seranne, 1980).

a book I read many years ago and thinking I might purchase to read again is Leon F Whitney's book.. How to Breed Dogs.

Cressrb, I love discussions like this too.
Darkevs is offline  
The Following User Says Thank You to Darkevs For This Useful Post:
4x4bike ped (11-07-2016)
post #17 of 24 (permalink) Old 11-07-2016, 11:39 AM
Alpha
 
Pompuschk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 204
Location: New York
Dogs Name: Livonija Baron Pompey and Livonija Baronesa Costa Brava

Gallery Pics: 0
Visit Pompuschk's Gallery
Thanks: 76
Thanked 239 Times in 127 Posts
                 
This is a very interesting list, thanks for sharing it. I don't know what's accurate here and what's not, however, the topline in almost all dogs is nearly entirely derived from the angles of the front and rear quarters. So you don't breed for a straight topline per say, it's really a function of the balance of the dogs angulations.

As far as heads are concerned, I don't know what's dominant and what's not, however there are traits that appear coincidentally. For example, correct fill under the eye, strength of muzzle and good bone tend to appear in concert. The opposite tends to be true as well. Narrow, slender heads that lack fill tend to be attached to dogs that are fine boned. There appears to be certain traits that are just incompatible, or at the least extremely difficult to achieve: long, lean head and substantial bone as an example. I'm sure more experienced people could elaborate.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Darkevs View Post
parts and pieces of head types are either dominant or recessive traits, it is why there are so many variations in head types in any breed. so breeding a heavy skulled dog to a longer finer head will give you many variations.

FROM PEAS TO PUPS


Genetically DOMINANT and RECESSIVE Traits In The Dog
Does not include disease, coat color or abnormal factors


DOMINANT
TRAITS
HEAD
Low set ears
Long ears
Long head
Wide ear leather
Dewlap
Dark eye
Correct bite
Black nose
Short face

BODY
Sternum
Deep chest
Straight top line
Straight tail
High tail set
Good spring of rib
Heavy bone
Achondroplastic
short leg with crook (correlates with big bone)
Compact foot
Short coat
Weight
Body height
Poor shoulder angulation
Poor stifle angulation
Short, choppy gait
MENTAL
Intelligence
Shy and/or vicious
temperament

RECESSIVE
TRAITS
HEAD
Pronounced parietal crest and occiput
Large skull size
Short ears
Fine skull
Light eye
Bulging eye
Overshot/Undershot Bite

BODY
Good shoulder angulation
Good stifle angulation
Long, reaching gait
Low tail set
No feathering on tail
Kinked tail
Long coat
Longer, straight leg (correlates with light bone)
MENTAL
Mild, non-aggressive
temperament
Lack of intelligence


del'Aglio working Dobermans @ www.totaldobe.com

Breeding the Total Doberman: a beautiful, powerful, compact guardian and protector who is fearless in the face of adversity. Beautiful Dobermans that can work!

Staten Island, New York based working Dobermans www.totaldobe.com
Pompuschk is offline  
The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to Pompuschk For This Useful Post:
Cressrb (11-07-2016), Darkevs (11-07-2016), melbrod (11-07-2016)
post #18 of 24 (permalink) Old 11-07-2016, 12:46 PM
Owned by Dobes since 1975
 
Darkevs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 30,675
Location: BC, Canada!
Dogs Name: Charlie & Naughty Dottie!
Titles: BDIH & BND
Dogs Age: 7 3/4 & 3
Gallery Pics: 46
Visit Darkevs's Gallery
Thanks: 86,447
Thanked 50,156 Times in 19,284 Posts
Images: 46
                     
Pompuschk, over the years I have met quite a few afghan, borzoi and deerhounds who had long lean heads and great bone....

Darkevs is offline  
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Darkevs For This Useful Post:
melbrod (11-07-2016), Pompuschk (11-08-2016)
post #19 of 24 (permalink) Old 11-07-2016, 04:06 PM
Alpha
 
Kansadobe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 1,895
Location: Kansas USA
Dogs Name: Breeder for over 40 Years
Titles: Bred 40+ AKC Champions, Top 20 Conformation and Obedience Contenders, and SCH Titled

Gallery Pics: 15
Visit Kansadobe's Gallery
Thanks: 2,483
Thanked 9,998 Times in 1,509 Posts
Images: 15
                     
The list comes directly from The Joy of Breeding Your Own Show Dog, page 51. It does have a number or caveats in it such as "It must be kept in mind that some are incompletely dominant, some are linked and others, such as a cleft palate are lethal." It claims that they are , "... agreed up on by a 'majority' of geneticists and breeder", but I still question the claim and no data is presented.

I started to make a list, but decided not to. There are some items that are conflicting and others that if truly were dominant, would not be an issue in our breed, but they are an issue....
dobebug likes this.

Kansadobe is offline  
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Kansadobe For This Useful Post:
dobebug (11-07-2016), melbrod (11-07-2016)
post #20 of 24 (permalink) Old 11-07-2016, 07:52 PM
Eschew Prolixity
 
melbrod's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 20,893
Location: Colorado
Dogs Name: Ori AKA Harold DogDog (Hairy Dog), RIP Caesar, Katana, Kip, Capri
Titles: DogDog Mouthe Extraordinaire; Kip Mr. Behavior; Capri Mis-Behavior
Dogs Age: DogDog 2 yrs?; RIP Kip 11 yrs; Capri 7 yrs; Katana 9 yrs; Caesar 13 yrs
Gallery Pics: 6
Visit melbrod's Gallery
Thanks: 59,901
Thanked 51,329 Times in 16,734 Posts
Images: 6
                     
Click here to find out how melbrod became a supporter
Rosemary--in your picture comparison--I don’t know if it is the chest blaze and obvious stripe down the nose, or maybe her ear position being close to the same (though not really)--but at least Ilka is recognizable as the same dog in all your pictures.

The dobe pictures, to my eye, don’t look at all like the same dog. Perhaps in part because dobe markings are all fairly close to a certain “standard”, there are no really obvious coat/color/marking differences to catch ahold of to say whether or not a dog is the same dog or not.

And I guess that is the first thing my eye sees in a dog. I imagine a breeder or judge looks at other things first--bone structure, correct expression, etc...

Last edited by melbrod; 11-07-2016 at 07:55 PM.
melbrod is offline  
post #21 of 24 (permalink) Old 11-07-2016, 08:11 PM Thread Starter
JIK
Big Pup
 
Join Date: Oct 2016
Posts: 24
Dogs Name: Tell us your dogs name

Gallery Pics: 0
Visit JIK's Gallery
Thanks: 6
Thanked 15 Times in 11 Posts
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pompuschk View Post
This is a very interesting list, thanks for sharing it. I don't know what's accurate here and what's not, however, the topline in almost all dogs is nearly entirely derived from the angles of the front and rear quarters. So you don't breed for a straight topline per say, it's really a function of the balance of the dogs angulations.

As far as heads are concerned, I don't know what's dominant and what's not, however there are traits that appear coincidentally. For example, correct fill under the eye, strength of muzzle and good bone tend to appear in concert. The opposite tends to be true as well. Narrow, slender heads that lack fill tend to be attached to dogs that are fine boned. There appears to be certain traits that are just incompatible, or at the least extremely difficult to achieve: long, lean head and substantial bone as an example. I'm sure more experienced people could elaborate.
Interesting point. Im not saying they dont exist but it does seem much more common for those traits to coincide with each other.
JIK is offline  
post #22 of 24 (permalink) Old 11-07-2016, 09:37 PM
Got mutt?
 
Rosemary's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 12,922
Location: Southeast Texas
Dogs Name: Leo (GSD); Lily (APBT)
Titles: They do, and are working on more
Dogs Age: Leo 6; Lily 4; Ilka 2009-2017; Lucky 2000-2014
Gallery Pics: 0
Visit Rosemary's Gallery
Thanks: 38,353
Thanked 30,409 Times in 10,168 Posts
                     
Melbrod, her distinctive markings do make it more obvious that it's the same dog, for sure. Dobes have more "generic" markings.

Although still pretty distinctive due to the reverse mask (and super snipey muzzle), Leo is a fairly typical WGSL color and pattern.

2014-10-27 Dogs & yard DSC_0033 by Rosemary Elwell, on Flickr

2015-9-21 Leo & Lily DSC_0582 by Rosemary Elwell, on Flickr


~~~The Current Hellhounds~~~
Lily Dale- A Melody Unchained ETD PKD-T ADP-L5/CH ADP-L1(Pr)/L2(Pr) GPS-BST
CA Speed Queen Leontine Von Washateria ETD D-CRO-Preliminary PKD-N PKD-T S-ADP-L5/CH S-ADP-L1(Pr)/L2(Pr) GPS-BST
~~~Requiescat In Pace~~~
Ilka Of Pear Orchard Cemetery BN RE CA CGC TKP ETD CRO-1 D-CRO-Preliminary NCO-1 PKD-T S-ADP-L4 ~2009-2017~
Lucky Rat Dog CGC ~2000-2014~
“Dance as if no one who is qualified to commit you is watching!” Julie Flanery, Founder of Rally FrEe

Last edited by Rosemary; 11-07-2016 at 09:39 PM.
Rosemary is offline  
post #23 of 24 (permalink) Old 11-08-2016, 03:40 PM
Alpha
 
Fitzmar Dobermans's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 7,812
Location: S. E. Pennsylvania
Dogs Name: Harvard, Jezebel, & Mabel
Titles: AKC CH & GrCh, RN, CGC & CGCA
Dogs Age: 12/20/07, 2/26/12, and 2/26/18
Gallery Pics: 13
Visit Fitzmar Dobermans's Gallery
Thanks: 3,712
Thanked 18,823 Times in 4,168 Posts
Images: 13
                     
Click here to find out how Fitzmar Dobermans became a supporter
Ok, these pictures are a bit closer in type than my last ones. These pictures were taken of my boy within one week of each other - age 8. For the poster who claimed that European Dobes have a blockier head, this dog is all American - his head is all male.



It is not a perfect head as his muzzle is a tad shorter than his skull, and he has more stop than our standard describes. However, it is a fairly nice head and you don't mistake him for a bitch.

Mary Jo Ansel
Fitzmar


AKC GRCH/UKC CH Fitzmar's Command A Minute CGC "Harvard"
Fitzmar's Victory Hop Devil RN CGC "Jezebel"
Jalyn One Moment Please "Mabel"
RIP CH. Cha-Rish A Moment Like This RN WAC CGC "Louise" 2/22/2005 - 4/1/2016
Fitzmar Dobermans is offline  
The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to Fitzmar Dobermans For This Useful Post:
CRDobe (11-08-2016), MeadowCat (11-09-2016), Rosemary (11-08-2016)
post #24 of 24 (permalink) Old 11-08-2016, 03:58 PM Thread Starter
JIK
Big Pup
 
Join Date: Oct 2016
Posts: 24
Dogs Name: Tell us your dogs name

Gallery Pics: 0
Visit JIK's Gallery
Thanks: 6
Thanked 15 Times in 11 Posts
 
Oh yea, no mistaking his gender!
JIK is offline  
Advertisement
 
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now



In order to be able to post messages on the Doberman Forum : Doberman Breed Dog Forums forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.

User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Password:


Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.

Email Address:
OR

Log-in










Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page
Display Modes
Linear Mode Linear Mode



Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome