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post #1 of 160 (permalink) Old 07-27-2006, 03:03 PM Thread Starter
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Doberman Conformation

Inspired by Elly's very educational history thread, I thought we could continue with the educational theme Not to mention if I'm considering getting into showing I need to learn about this stuff (so this is a little self serving ). I know a number of you show so you will be able to share your knowledge and experience with the rest of us.

Below is a copy of the doberman standard from www.dpca.org What I'm hoping for is that following the standard we could post pics of actual show dogs and comment on those dogs' conformation. This such as this dog has a very nice neck, but his head is too so and so, while this other dog has a perfect head, but his body looks too long.. that sort of stuff. That way us noobs can start to learn visually what it takes to have a good conformation show dog.






Official AKC Standard of the Doberman Pinscher
(Adopted February 6, 1982)

* GENERAL APPEARANCE
* The appearance is that of a dog of medium size, with a body that is square. Compactly built, muscular and powerful, for great endurance and speed. Elegant in appearance, of proud carriage, reflecting great nobility and temperament. Energetic, watchful, determined, alert, fearless, loyal and obedient.

SIZE, PROPORTION, SUBSTANCE
* Height at the withers: Dogs 26 to 28 inches, ideal about 27 1/2 inches; Bitches 24 to 26 inches, ideal about 25 1/2 inches. The height, measured vertically from the ground to the highest point of the withers, equaling the length measured horizontally from the forechest to the rear projection of the upper thigh. Length of head, neck and legs in proportion to length and depth of body.

HEAD
* Long and dry, resembling a blunt wedge in both frontal and profile views. When seen from the front, the head widens gradually toward the base of the ears in a practically unbroken line. Eyes almond shaped, moderately deep set, with vigorous, energetic expression. Iris, of uniform color, ranging from medium to darkest brown in black dogs; in reds, blues, and fawns the color of the iris blends with that of the markings, the darkest shade being preferable in every case. Ears normally cropped and carried erect. The upper attachment of the ear, when held erect, is on a level with the top of the skull.
* Top of skull flat, turning with slight stop to bridge of muzzle, with muzzle line extending parallel to top line of skull. Cheeks flat and muscular. Nose solid black on black dogs, dark brown on red ones, dark gray on blue ones, dark tan on fawns. Lips lying close to jaws. Jaws full and powerful, well filled under the eyes.
* Teeth strongly developed and white. Lower incisors upright and touching inside of upper incisors true scissors bite. 42 correctly placed teeth, 22 in the lower, 20 in the upper jaw. Distemper teeth shall not be penalized. Disqualifying Faults: Overshot more than 3/16 of an inch. Undershot more than 1/8 of an inch. Four or more missing teeth.

NECK, TOPLINE, BODY
* Neck proudly carried, well muscled and dry. Well arched, with nape of neck widening gradually toward body. Length of neck proportioned to body and head. Withers pronounced and forming the highest point of the body. Back short, firm, of sufficient width, and muscular at the loins, extending in a straight line from withers to the slightly rounded croup.
* Chest broad with forechest well defined. Ribs well sprung from the spine, but flattened in lower end to permit elbow clearance. Brisket reaching deep to the elbow. Belly well tucked up, extending in a curved line from the brisket. Loins wide and muscled. Hips broad and in proportion to body, breadth of hips being approximately equal to breadth of body at rib cage and shoulders. Tail docked at approximately second joint, appears to be a continuation of the spine, and is carried only slightly above the horizontal when the dog is alert.

FOREQUARTERS
* Shoulder Blade sloping forward and downward at a 45-degree angle to the ground meets the upper arm at an angle of 90 degrees. Length of shoulder blade and upper arm are equal. Height from elbow to withers approximately equals height from ground to elbow. Legs seen from front and side, perfectly straight and parallel to each other from elbow to pastern; muscled and sinewy, with heavy bone. In normal pose and when gaiting, the elbows lie close to the brisket. Pasterns firm and almost perpendicular to the ground. Dewclaws may be removed. Feet well arched, compact, and catlike, turning neither in nor out.

HINDQUARTERS
* The angulation of the hindquarters balances that of the forequarters. Hip Bone falls away from spinal column at an angle of about 30 degrees, producing a slightly rounded, well filled-out croup. Upper Shanks at right angles to the hip bones, are long, wide, and well muscled on both sides of thigh, with clearly defined stifles. Upper and lower shanks are of equal length. While the dog is at rest, hock to heel is perpendicular to the ground. Viewed from the rear, the legs are straight, parallel to each other, and wide enough apart to fit in with a properly built body. Dewclaws, if any, are generally removed. Cat feet as on front legs, turning neither in nor out.

COAT
* Smooth-haired, short, hard, thick and close lying. Invisible gray undercoat on neck permissible.
* Color and Markings
* Allowed Colors: Black, red, blue, and fawn (Isabella). Markings : Rust, sharply defined, appearing above each eye and on muzzle, throat and forechest, on all legs and feet, and below tail. White patch on chest, not exceeding 1/2 square inch, permissible. Disqualifying Fault : Dogs not of an allowed color.

GAIT
* Free, balanced and vigorous, with good reach in the forequarters and good driving power in the hindquarters. When trotting, there is strong rear-action drive. Each rear leg moves in line with the foreleg on the same side. Rear and front legs are thrown neither in nor out. Back remains strong and firm. When moving at a fast trot, a properly built dog will single-track.

TEMPERAMENT
* Energetic, watchful, determined alert, fearless, loyal and obedient. The judge shall dismiss from the ring any shy or vicious Doberman.
* Shyness: A dog shall be judged fundamentally shy if, refusing to stand for examination, it shrinks away from the judge; if it fears an approach from the rear; if it shies at sudden and unusual noises to a marked degree.
* Viciousness: A dog that attacks or attempts to attack either the judge or its handier, is definitely vicious. An aggressive or belligerent attitude towards other dogs shall not be deemed viciousness.

FAULTS
* The foregoing description is that of the ideal Doberman Pinscher. Any deviation from the above described dog must be penalized to the extent of the deviation.

DISQUALIFICATIONS
* Overshot more than 3/16 of an inch, undershot more than 1/8 of an inch. Four or more missing teeth. Dogs not of an allowed color.


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post #2 of 160 (permalink) Old 07-27-2006, 03:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zucker

Below is a copy of the doberman standard from www.dpca.org What I'm hoping for is that following the standard we could post pics of actual show dogs and comment on those dogs' conformation. ]
I think that's fine if people want to volunteer photos of their own dogs. But besides copyright issues, it's just plain rude to copy photos of dogs belonging to other people without their knowlege and consent. This is especially true if the intent is to critique the dog.

I didn't think it was an issue with the photos Elly has already posted..these dogs (and their owners) are long dead. But when you get into the area of today's dogs, it's best to show some courtesy. You can step on a lot of toes, you also can find yourself in legal trouble for copyright violations.

Any dog can be critiqued with the owner's consent..it doesn't necessarily have to be a show dog. All you need is a clear photo taken straight on from the side. Photos can be deceiving at times, you can't always consider them as gospel. But they can be a good educational tool.



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post #3 of 160 (permalink) Old 07-27-2006, 05:50 PM
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Some of mine are in my gallery - ya'll are welcome to take a whack at them.
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post #4 of 160 (permalink) Old 07-27-2006, 05:57 PM
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Here ya go....

Prob not the best pics, but you wont hurt my feelings I wouldnt know how to get a dog to "stack" for a million dollars, but how about standing in the yard??? Haha.






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post #5 of 160 (permalink) Old 07-27-2006, 06:03 PM
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Blackdog - Cyrus is perfect looking. Not that I would know perfect if I saw it, but he is beautiful.
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post #6 of 160 (permalink) Old 07-27-2006, 06:20 PM
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Thanks. He's nice, as show dogs go, but he's not perfect. I don't mind having him critiqued or discussed.
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post #7 of 160 (permalink) Old 07-27-2006, 06:25 PM
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Okay, I'll take the first stab at critiquing ( have to hurry, dr's appointment this morning)

Cyrus - best dog ever! (no big surprise, I'm a huge fan of the boy :-)

Rommel - The only dog on this forum that is as leggy as my own - so much personality shown in his pictures we can hear his thoughts - soulful yet mischievous eyes - great little brother to Piper - great protector and friend to "mom" especially when dad is away - all around perfect example of the breed :-)
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post #8 of 160 (permalink) Old 07-27-2006, 06:51 PM
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Will post some of Tia if i can ever get someone to take a decent picture of her i am rubbish with camera angles.I will try the weekend as we are at our breed club "doberman rally" on sunday.


My favourite quote "If it's not a Doberman,It's just a dog" Anon
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post #9 of 160 (permalink) Old 07-27-2006, 08:53 PM
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Zucker, you should just go sit ring side when the dobes are showing .....there are plenty of experts there LOLOLOL
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post #10 of 160 (permalink) Old 07-27-2006, 08:56 PM
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first ill post pics of rah for everyone to critique.

this is almost 2 months ago (wow, time flies) - self stacking to stare at kittens.
he was under 1 yo here.


these two are over 1 month old - right around his 1st bday. his first attempt at being hand-stacked by me.



Bowie's Here Comes the Boom! UD BN RN TKP WAC CGC
Katwalk Calm Like a Bomb UDX OM1 PCD GN BN TKP CD-C CGC
Bowie's Atomic Bomb NW1 TKI
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Beja's Bombs Away v Bowie, CD ASCA-CD CD-H BN RN NA NAJ RL1 WAC ATT YTT PTT CGC CHIC#71265
Bowie's Modern Love RN CGC
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post #11 of 160 (permalink) Old 07-27-2006, 09:05 PM
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Wow Kim, I can't believe it has been that long, his coat looks so dark, he hardly looks blue! How tall is he? I think his height looks decieving b/c he's a leggy guy!

I'll bite, I don't know doodley about confirmation unless they are WAY wrong, but I'm more then happy to have Lex evalutated by the "know how" people I'll try to stack (laughable!) her and get some pics this weekend. She just my pet, so I'm up for an honest critique for the fun of it!
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post #12 of 160 (permalink) Old 07-27-2006, 09:06 PM
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first cyrus - and i adore cyrus - i think youre website has better pics of him on there, cause my favorite isnt in your gallery... or maybe i just saw it posted.

love cyrus's feet. nice and tight. good rear angulation in my book, and a pretty good topline. nice tailset. great head, lovely planes, the first pic has a lovely arch to his neck and it flows into his shoulder/back very nicely - however, not in the other two pics, where he seems sorta hunchey (but he also looks really short-backed in one of the pics too). he looks to be in better condition in the first pic, has a nice tuck up, and looks a little heavier in the other shots contributing to his hump. the only real thing that i dont like on your boy is how his chest looks in the one shot - almost bowling-ball-ish, but its not as significant in the other shots to bother me, so a lot is how he is stacked. a bit lippy, but thats how i like my dobes very masculine face, and you know hes all male.


for rommel, its hard to say since a lot of the shots arent at good angles to see him - taken from above, hes not parallel to the camera, etc. hes immature, and his chest hasnt dropped. he is long, and has a rollercoaster topline (you can see an example in rah's first shot) and a low tail set (not as low as rah's). he also has a very long tail for the breed. hes long in the loin from what i can see in the shots, and may also elbow out. cant say much about the head since its not a good shot, but i know from past pics he has a very bitchy head - smaller snipey muzzle, lacking in underjaw. as he grows he should hopefully look less narrow and fill out a lot more - cant say much about his chest since like rah, hes young and it just simply isnt there. rear angulation looks good, cant say much about the front, in the one shot that i can see it, hes also easy-westy so i think that he is just standing funny there. good coat, in pretty good body condition.


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post #13 of 160 (permalink) Old 07-27-2006, 09:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lexus
Wow Kim, I can't believe it has been that long, his coat looks so dark, he hardly looks blue! How tall is he? I think his height looks decieving b/c he's a leggy guy!

I'll bite, I don't know doodley about confirmation unless they are WAY wrong, but I'm more then happy to have Lex evalutated by the "know how" people I'll try to stack (laughable!) her and get some pics this weekend. She just my pet, so I'm up for an honest critique for the fun of it!

cant get an accurate heigh measurement on rah - he never sits still enough! he is very dark, but hes still noticeably blue. hes also fighting some demodex right now, so im hoping his body will fight it so i dont have to ivomec him! hes VERY tall though - i believe last time we tried, he was at least 29 inches, and hes all leg. his front leg alone is almost 2 feet tall, so...


ill critique my own dog too, if people want i have some stacked shots of bowie somewhere...


Bowie's Here Comes the Boom! UD BN RN TKP WAC CGC
Katwalk Calm Like a Bomb UDX OM1 PCD GN BN TKP CD-C CGC
Bowie's Atomic Bomb NW1 TKI
ARCHX Bowie's Semper Fidelis v DRU, UD ASCA-CDX CDX-H D-CD RE RL1X RL2X RL3 ATT WAC TT CGC VC FFX-OG
Beja's Bombs Away v Bowie, CD ASCA-CD CD-H BN RN NA NAJ RL1 WAC ATT YTT PTT CGC CHIC#71265
Bowie's Modern Love RN CGC
Forever in my heart


more beatings, less love!
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post #14 of 160 (permalink) Old 07-27-2006, 09:15 PM
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This is turning into a real fun thread! haha Ill attempt to stack Duch sometime...lol I wish I could get her tail up lol whenever I put her in a stand...she keeps her little nub down as if she doesnt want anyone looking lol.
I love the doberman shape! even if I dont know how to critique...I love looking at the stacking attempts and lovely pictures!

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post #15 of 160 (permalink) Old 07-27-2006, 09:28 PM
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yes, please post a pic of duchess - from what i have seen, she does have pretty good conformation.... shes got a great head though, feminine but not snipey, wonderful eye shape and color, a great expression! and shes in great shape!


Bowie's Here Comes the Boom! UD BN RN TKP WAC CGC
Katwalk Calm Like a Bomb UDX OM1 PCD GN BN TKP CD-C CGC
Bowie's Atomic Bomb NW1 TKI
ARCHX Bowie's Semper Fidelis v DRU, UD ASCA-CDX CDX-H D-CD RE RL1X RL2X RL3 ATT WAC TT CGC VC FFX-OG
Beja's Bombs Away v Bowie, CD ASCA-CD CD-H BN RN NA NAJ RL1 WAC ATT YTT PTT CGC CHIC#71265
Bowie's Modern Love RN CGC
Forever in my heart


more beatings, less love!
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post #16 of 160 (permalink) Old 07-27-2006, 09:38 PM
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This is a great thread! I have always wondered what kind of flaws Rommel has, because I honestly have no clue what to look for. Even after reading the "standard" it is still not really clear. I think it just takes a trained eye for that sort of thing.
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post #17 of 160 (permalink) Old 07-27-2006, 09:40 PM
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Bring on the Bowie pics Kim.
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post #18 of 160 (permalink) Old 07-27-2006, 09:43 PM
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Here is a pic from my gallery. It is from the side too, but he is moving. It is at a more "straight from the side" angle though.

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post #19 of 160 (permalink) Old 07-27-2006, 09:55 PM
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in that shot his tail doesnt look as long, but he definitely has the start of a gay tail there. also long in the croup. really thick neck and throatlatch (ive found this to be one of the most telling places you can tell a well bred from a not-so-well bred dobe, ironically - in my experiences, well bred dobes have much cleaner necks and throats! rah has a really thick one too - sometimes you can barely see any definition) - hes lacking good markings on his face and hes a little down-faced.


and bowies pics are on my last computer, so its gonna have to wait


Bowie's Here Comes the Boom! UD BN RN TKP WAC CGC
Katwalk Calm Like a Bomb UDX OM1 PCD GN BN TKP CD-C CGC
Bowie's Atomic Bomb NW1 TKI
ARCHX Bowie's Semper Fidelis v DRU, UD ASCA-CDX CDX-H D-CD RE RL1X RL2X RL3 ATT WAC TT CGC VC FFX-OG
Beja's Bombs Away v Bowie, CD ASCA-CD CD-H BN RN NA NAJ RL1 WAC ATT YTT PTT CGC CHIC#71265
Bowie's Modern Love RN CGC
Forever in my heart


more beatings, less love!
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post #20 of 160 (permalink) Old 07-27-2006, 10:06 PM
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Ok, let me see if I can post some pics here.

Razzle at 11 months:



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post #21 of 160 (permalink) Old 07-27-2006, 10:14 PM
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razzle's biggest problem is living on the west coast. she is supposed to be here in NJ with me.


Bowie's Here Comes the Boom! UD BN RN TKP WAC CGC
Katwalk Calm Like a Bomb UDX OM1 PCD GN BN TKP CD-C CGC
Bowie's Atomic Bomb NW1 TKI
ARCHX Bowie's Semper Fidelis v DRU, UD ASCA-CDX CDX-H D-CD RE RL1X RL2X RL3 ATT WAC TT CGC VC FFX-OG
Beja's Bombs Away v Bowie, CD ASCA-CD CD-H BN RN NA NAJ RL1 WAC ATT YTT PTT CGC CHIC#71265
Bowie's Modern Love RN CGC
Forever in my heart


more beatings, less love!
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post #22 of 160 (permalink) Old 07-27-2006, 10:20 PM
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Thanks Doberkim! Here is the best pic we could get...It would be better outside...but its already dark where I am

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post #23 of 160 (permalink) Old 07-27-2006, 10:23 PM
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Rush at 10 months:




Last edited by Murreydobe; 08-11-2006 at 09:51 PM.
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post #24 of 160 (permalink) Old 07-27-2006, 10:26 PM
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I hate to break in here but I have a question, what exactly do you mean by dropping their chest and at what age do they usually do this?
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post #25 of 160 (permalink) Old 07-27-2006, 10:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by doberkim
razzle's biggest problem is living on the west coast. she is supposed to be here in NJ with me.


She's a pretty girl, and a hoot to live with.



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